MP 1,1-5,1 Internal SATA2 SSD vs PCIe SSD vs PCIe NVMe; MacPro 5,1 2010

[throAU]

2. Is there any reason to expect a difference with NVMe?
If doubling [roughly] the speed from 250Mb/s to 500Mb/s on PCIe does absolutely nothing in terms of performance, I would think that "tripling" this with an NVMe would be a very expensive way to get the exact same results (I am guessing the best I could get from NVMe on PCIe 2.0 would be ~1500Mb/s with the Sonnet M.2 4x4 PCIe card; and 3 x 0 improvement is still 0!). But I do not know enough about computer hardware to know if this is correct. Perhaps the NVMe would indeed be faster for some other reason? Perhaps there is only a difference in speed with presets/project files that are significantly larger (2, 5, 10, 100Gb)?

3. Is this an inherent limitation of the Mac Pro? Or, what is the fastest possible configuration?
I sent the same questions to the software manufacturers to see if they have any insights, but I suspect this has something to do with SSD hardware, QD, bus architecture, or maybe 5,1 firmware. Or maybe it is inherent to how sample data is read from an SSD? Compression/decompression? My system is as up to date as possible without getting a Metal GPU and installing Mojave (or just updating firmware and going back to stock 5770 GPU and High Sierra), but not sure if this would change anything.

Not Mac specific, but...

Linus tech tips did a blind test with a bunch of SSD equipped PCs for general system responsiveness, app loads, etc.

Most of the staff picked the SATA3 connected SSD as the most responsive machine or couldn't tell the difference.

The test included a 3.2GB/sec NVME drive.

Which matches what I've personally found as well. I've got 4 SSDs in my Linux desktop - 3 SATA (mix of 850 and 860 EVOs) and one NVME (970 EVO) and unless you're doing a flat file copy they all perform pretty identically almost all the time.

For the vast majority of tasks, SSD is not the bottleneck at the moment, it is software optimised for slower storage, cpu throughput, etc.

Not saying there aren't edge cases where faster SSDs will be faster, but if people are expecting night and day performance from a faster SSD vs. a regular commonplace SATA connected one... you just aren't going to see it 99% of the time you're using it.

 

[bosDAW]

Do you know if the HighPoint works with High Sierra? Website mentions 10.14.

While I am considering this, would you think it is worthwhile to try to upgrade the boot drive to NVMe instead or in addition to everything else? First, I have read different things about whether NVMe as a boot drive makes sense, but I would trust your opinion, which seems to be that it would be better if not at least cheaper for the drive itself. Second, I would have to get a new GPU for Mojave or at least borrow one to do the firmware update. I am not sure if this will have any effect on music production software (smoother redraws in GUI?) But maybe this is not so bad as, and a new GPU would improve performance further.

For the SSDs, also keep in mind that I already have two 860PRO 1TB as storage drives. Even though the 970 are now cheaper, I would am not necessarily comparing cost of 860PRO vs 970PRO but deciding whether to replace the 860PRO with 970 NVMe. The old 860s would then become backups. I just want to see if I can get that last bit of extra performance from my system. But I also want to avoid upgrading one component only to realize later (from lack of research/education) that I did something in the wrong order or spent money unnecessarily.

throAU thanks for the mention. I will try to find the review.

 

[tsialex]

Do you know if the HighPoint works with High Sierra? Website mentions 10.14.

While I am considering this, would you think it is worthwhile to try to upgrade the boot drive to NVMe instead or in addition to everything else? First, I have read different things about whether NVMe as a boot drive makes sense, but I would trust your opinion, which seems to be that it would be better if not at least cheaper for the drive itself. Second, I would have to get a new GPU for Mojave or at least borrow one to do the firmware update. I am not sure if this will have any effect on music production software (smoother redraws in GUI?) But maybe this is not so bad as, and a new GPU would improve performance further.

For the SSDs, also keep in mind that I already have two 860PRO 1TB as storage drives. Even though the 970 are now cheaper, I would am not necessarily comparing cost of 860PRO vs 970PRO but deciding whether to replace the 860PRO with 970 NVMe. The old 860s would then become backups. I just want to see if I can get that last bit of extra performance from my system. But I also want to avoid upgrading one component only to realize later (from lack of research/education) that I did something in the wrong order or spent money unnecessarily.

throAU thanks for the mention. I will try to find the review.

HighPoint Mac spec sheet are really not the best, SSD7101A-1 is bootable on a Mac Pro and HighPoint tells otherwise, but it's proved by multiple users that SSD710[1-3] cards works from, if you only use:

• Snow Leopard with PCIe AHCI M.2 blades,
• Sierra with 4KB/sector PCIe NVMe M.2 blades,
• High Sierra with 512B/sector PCIe NVMe M.2 blades,
• Mixmatching 4KB + 512B PCIe NVMe M.2 blades needs High Sierra.

If you already have the 860PROs, don't make much sense to buy 970PROs, unless you are limited to SATAII. It will work fine for fast storage drives on a SATAIII adapter.

NVMe will make system disks snappier and your Mac will perform better, but it's on scratch disks that you will clearly see the benefits.

I you have a Sonnet Tempo, you will need to remove any bootable disks from it or you will lose the BootPicker.

While a lot of people here really like Linus, I think that a guy that destroys an iMac Pro to make a scene or inadvertently remove the socket from a 2019 Mac Pro to change the processor is not someone with real technical credibility, but an entertainer. Anyway, kudos for him, he makes boatloads of money.

 

[throAU]

While a lot of people here really like Linus, I think that a guy that destroys an iMac Pro to make a scene or inadvertently remove the socket from a 2019 Mac Pro to change the processor is not someone with real technical credibility, but an entertainer. Anyway, kudos for him, he makes boatloads of money.

Why not both?

Yeah he does some clickbait stuff to exploit the YouTube algorithm.

The test methodology seemed fairly legit. PCs covered, live reactions on camera, several applications were tested by 4-5 staff and they had to pick which was which storage.

 

[tsialex]

Why not both?

Yeah he does some clickbait stuff to exploit the YouTube algorithm.

The test methodology seemed fairly legit. PCs covered, live reactions on camera, several applications were tested by 4-5 staff and they had to pick which was which storage.

Because he lacks deep knowledge and makes very stupid mistakes. If the stupid mistakes are to gamble YouTube, it's even worse on my view. Anyway, he is very successful doing what he does, but I don't take anything from him seriously.

 

[ObiJuan2080]

Don't make sense a fast drive for OS and apps, it's your scratch disk that needs to be fast. It's where you are working. This is paramount for video work.

BTW, most people here have very bad experiences with OWC SSDs. I'm one that would never buy anything there that I can find elsewhere.

So, OS and apps should run from SSD and the NVMe should be used as scratch...Unless I can get two NVMe’s and one can be used as a scratch disk and the other for OS and apps. Cause I’m having a hard time letting go of the idea of faster boot and app launching times.

Also, then would you recommend the Samsung SSDs instead of those from OWC? The reason I wanted the OWC ones is because there’s a tray already mounted on the SSD. While the Samsung ones aren’t and I wouldn’t know how to go about building that into the existing trays.

 

[tsialex]

So, OS and apps should run from SSD and the NVMe should be used as scratch...Unless I can get two NVMe’s and one can be used as a scratch disk and the other for OS and apps. Cause I’m having a hard time letting go of the idea of faster boot and app launching times.

Also, then would you recommend the Samsung SSDs instead of those from OWC? The reason I wanted the OWC ones is because there’s a tray already mounted on the SSD. While the Samsung ones aren’t and I wouldn’t know how to go about building that into the existing trays.

You can use everything with NVMe, even better. If you have just one, use for scratch.

I don't have good experiences with OWC SSDs. I'd never buy anything from them that I can find elsewhere.

Tray? You are talking about 2,5" to 3,5" adapters? There are lot's of ways to use 2,5" SATA SSDs with MP5,1, I like the HP 654540-001 adapter:

HP 2.5" to 3.5" SSD HD Tray Caddy Sled Mounting Adapter for Apple MacPro for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for HP 2.5" to 3.5" SSD HD Tray Caddy Sled Mounting Adapter for Apple MacPro at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

I bought at least a dozen of these over the years and I need to buy more. Perfect for MP5,1.

 

[bosDAW]

a few followups...

1. NVMe system drive (for OS) -- would you say the only real performance difference here would be boot time and the time it takes to open programs? Again [for me], 90% of the time I am running a single program (the digital audio program); the computer is offline and used for nothing else. Once the program loads, everything is working primarily from RAM (maybe?). So the only difference might be that the program loads in 2s instead of 8-10s. Does that sound right?

2. Is there a way to measure QD while running a particular piece of software? I am maybe confusing different concepts here, but theoretical max QD has to do with what connects the CPU to the storage device, so it is limited by hardware. However, in reality the QD is a function of the software and how many threads is can use (?). So is it possible to see what the actual QD is at any given time to see whether something like sample-loading is restricted more by the software (because it is coded in a way that only produces QD1) vs how much of the hardware?

 

[bosDAW]

Only instantaneous performance of 970EVO+ is better, after the SLC cache is full and you have the real speeds of the TLC NAND, the write throughput falls vertiginously. For reading bound applications, don't matter. 970PRO MLC NAND is insuperable, buy a 970PRO for a scratch disk, 970EVO+ for storage.

@tsialex, going back to what you said about PRO vs EVO (and after learning more about how SSDs work), I wanted to point out again that the drive would be primarily read only (95% of data would be read-only sample files, 5% would be read/write files average about 250kb each in size totaling maybe ~100MB over lifetime use). Your feedback makes more sense now, so...

For a system drive or a backup of a system drive (lots of read/write) --> PRO is ideal
For a storage/sample drive (95% read-only) --> any EVO plus or EVO is all I need

Saving money on an EVO plus would make it easier for me to justify the cost of switching to NVMe at the risk of getting back only minor performance improvements.

 

[ObiJuan2080]

Only instantaneous performance of 970EVO+ is better, after the SLC cache is full and you have the real speeds of the TLC NAND, the write throughput falls vertiginously. For reading bound applications, don't matter. 970PRO MLC NAND is insuperable, buy a 970PRO for a scratch disk, 970EVO+ for storage.

I was under the impression that the Samsung 970 Evo plus wouldn’t work with any PCIe adapters hooked up to a Mac 5,1. If that’s not the case, hell, I’m going with a 1TB 970 Evo Plus then.

Double checking here. The 970 Evo Plus is going to work with the Kryo M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 adapter I just got, right? ??????

 

[VaZ]

I bought one of these for $20CAN from ShenZhen, China to do what you're doing

Description:
3 in 1 Msata PCIE M.2 NGFF NVME SATA SSD to PCI-E 4X SATA3 Apapter Computer Expansion Cards for 2280 2260 2242 2230mm
Feature:
1. Supports PCIE M.2 SSD (NVME or AHCI, Key-M), PCIE 3.0 X4 32 Gbps bandwidth, apply to 2280/2260/2242/2230mm. (7.48/7.41/7.36/7.31ft)
2. Supports SATA-based M.2 SSD (Key-B/B+M), SATA 6 Gbps bandwidth, apply to 2280/2260/2242/2230mm. (7.48/7.41/7.36/7.31ft)
3. Supports mSATA, 30x50mm, SATA 6 Gbps bandwidth.
4. 3 channel SSD read/write LED indicator.
6. Supports PCIe 2.0, 3.0 and PCIe 4.0 motherboard.
7. Supports 3 SSDs (M.2 PCIE-based SSDs, M.2 SATA-based SSDs and mSATA SSD) to work simultaneously.
8. NVME M.2 SSD to PCIE 3.0x4 (32Gbps), no need to use SATA cable to connect to the PC.
9. When working with SATA M.2 to SATA III (6Gbps) and mSATA to SATA III (6Gbps), a SATA cable is required to connect the motherboard. (The product already contains 2 SATA cables)
10. This adapter is compatible for PCI-E 4X, 8X, 16X, but the speed only PCI-E 4X.

 

[tsialex]

I was under the impression that the Samsung 970 Evo plus wouldn’t work with any PCIe adapters hooked up to a Mac 5,1. If that’s not the case, hell, I’m going with a 1TB 970 Evo Plus then.

Double checking here. The 970 Evo Plus is going to work with the Kryo M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 adapter I just got, right? ??????

970 EVO+ only works with a Mac if you upgraded the firmware or already has the upgraded firmware from factory (Samsung started to use the current firmware around September/October 2019, older drives are incompatible without the firmware upgrade).

Samsung 970 EVO+ requires at least firmware 2B2QEXM7 to work with macOS.
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@tsialex, going back to what you said about PRO vs EVO (and after learning more about how SSDs work), I wanted to point out again that the drive would be primarily read only (95% of data would be read-only sample files, 5% would be read/write files average about 250kb each in size totaling maybe ~100MB over lifetime use). Your feedback makes more sense now, so...

For a system drive or a backup of a system drive (lots of read/write) --> PRO is ideal
For a storage/sample drive (95% read-only) --> any EVO plus or EVO is all I need

Saving money on an EVO plus would make it easier for me to justify the cost of switching to NVMe at the risk of getting back only minor performance improvements.

Talking about Samsung drives, other manufacturers have different nomenclatures.

For drives that you mainly do read operations, EVO and EVO+ are indicated. While for drives that are write bound, use PRO versions.

 

[ObiJuan2080]

970 EVO+ only works with a Mac if you upgraded the firmware or already has the upgraded firmware from factory (Samsung started to use the current firmware around September/October 2019, older drives are incompatible without the firmware upgrade).

Samsung 970 EVO+ requires at least firmware 2B2QEXM7 to work with macOS.

I haven’t purchased it yet, I’m hoping to get it with the firmware already installed then. You think I can increase my chances of that if I buy direct from Samsung instead of getting it through Amazon or Newegg?

 

[tsialex]

I haven’t purchased it yet, I’m hoping to get it with the firmware already installed then. You think I can increase my chances of that if I buy direct from Samsung instead of getting it through Amazon or Newegg?

Direct from Samsung you will have a lot better chances to get an updated one. From re-sellers, you always have the chance of getting one from the bottom of the drawer.

Anyway, it's easy enough to update, see the link.

 

[ObiJuan2080]

How does one check for the firmware on the EVO Plus anyway??

 

[MIKX]

How does one check for the firmware on the EVO Plus anyway??

Go to " About this Mac"/ System Report / NVMExpress

If you want to update the EVO Plus firmware in Windows using Samsung Magician -DO NOT FORMAT the blade in Mac OS as Samsung Magician will not be able to see it. Format the blade in Mac OS AFTER the firmware upgrade.

Read ALL of this post https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...m-solved.2220069/?post=28390552#post-28390552

 

[ObiJuan2080]

Go to " About this Mac"/ System Report / NVMExpress

If you want to update the EVO Plus firmware in Windows using Samsung Magician -DO NOT FORMAT the blade in Mac OS as Samsung Magician will not be able to see it. Format the blade in Mac OS AFTER the firmware upgrade.

Windows will not be used. Just my Mac Pro 5,1

 

[MIKX]

Windows will not be used. Just my Mac Pro 5,1

You should still read & understand ALL of this https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...m-solved.2220069/?post=28390552#post-28390552

 

[chuco915]

Direct from Samsung you will have a lot better chances to get an updated one. From re-sellers, you always have the chance of getting one from the bottom of the drawer.

Anyway, it's easy enough to update, see the link.

If you have to workaround and remove the PCIe fan every time, it fails the fit test for me. Read the posts about it, practically only people with MP7,1 are satisfied with the M.2 4x4.

I have a HighPoint SSD7101A-1 v1.01 and installed SSD7101A-1 v2.00, SSD7103 and Sonnet M.2 4x4 for friends, the HighPoint PCBs are always better routed, PCB has better quality, the shroud/heatsink of HighPoint cards are a lot heavier than the one from Sonnet and the HighPoint cards accepts double sided blades without any hacks.

4TB blades arriving soon are double sided, btw.

@tsialex - Thanks for posting all the amazing info on updating and keeping out 5,1 Mac Pros relevant.

I have a question on the SSD7101A-1, I just ordered mine, how can you tell what version you bought?

I bought it off amazon

Also, I read you have the same card with 970 Pros. I'm currently booting from NVME 970_Pro. I ordered a few more sticks of 970_Pro to add in the HighPoint card. When the card arrives, and I insert my bootable NVME blade, will the OS recognize the card and boot startup? Or do I have to update firmware on HighPoint?

Once the HP card is recognized, can I add the 3 new 970_Pro blades and create a RAID 0 for those 3 blades and keep my original NVME startup disk blade the same inside the Highpoint Card?

Thanks again for all the posts...I've followed a lot of what you have posted to get my system where it is today. I'm currently stuck with the questions above, or have you answered these questions already? Please advise.

 

[tsialex]

@tsialex - Thanks for posting all the amazing info on updating and keeping out 5,1 Mac Pros relevant.

I have a question on the SSD7101A-1, I just ordered mine, how can you tell what version you bought?

I bought it off amazon

Also, I read you have the same card with 970 Pros. I'm currently booting from NVME 970_Pro. I ordered a few more sticks of 970_Pro to add in the HighPoint card. When the card arrives, and I insert my bootable NVME blade, will the OS recognize the card and boot startup? Or do I have to update firmware on HighPoint?

Once the HP card is recognized, can I add the 3 new 970_Pro blades and create a RAID 0 for those 3 blades and keep my original NVME startup disk blade the same inside the Highpoint Card?

Thanks again for all the posts...I've followed a lot of what you have posted to get my system where it is today. I'm currently stuck with the questions above, or have you answered these questions already? Please advise.

See this post below on how to identify the PCB version, I wrote others with more detail on the PCIe SSDs sticky.

Highpoint 7101A - PCIe 3.0 SSD performance for the cMP

First, your card don't support fan speed control, it's a v1.01 card with 2-pin fan. Second, like said before in the thread, you have to send your card, PCB v2.00, to HighPoint to have the firmware upgrade. This is the PCB version and type of fan that can be firmware upgraded to have fan control:

forums.macrumors.com

Firmware of HighPoint SSD7101A-1 is not user updatable, HighPoint asks you to send it to their labs if your card is one that can use the new firmware, the new one can control the card fan. There are posts about that too on the PCIe SSD sticky.

You can use SSD7101A-1 with or without installing HighPoint drivers. You only need to install the drivers for blade hardware management. Even RAID can be done via diskutility without the drivers. You can move your current blade from a dumb adapter and use with the SSD7101A-1. You can create a 3-blade RAID array for data and keep one outside for boot and macOS - it's the way most people use the card.

Take a look at the HighPoint thread that I linked above and the PCIe SSDs sticky thread, everything that could be asked about this card and NVMe in general are there already, it's just a search exercise.
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SSD7101A-1 is a mature card, current version is PCB v2.00, the only thing that changed in the past 6-months are the new firmware issued for cards that have PCB v2.00 and three-pin PWM fans from factory and these cards have fan control via firmware - you can even disable the fan if you are going to install it on a 2019 Mac Pro.

Some PCB v2.00 cards were sold before the new firmware started to be used, cards made around the end of 2019 should already have the new/current firmware.

 

[chuco915]

See this post below on how to identify the PCB version, I wrote others with more detail on the PCIe SSDs sticky.

Highpoint 7101A - PCIe 3.0 SSD performance for the cMP

First, your card don't support fan speed control, it's a v1.01 card with 2-pin fan. Second, like said before in the thread, you have to send your card, PCB v2.00, to HighPoint to have the firmware upgrade. This is the PCB version and type of fan that can be firmware upgraded to have fan control:

forums.macrumors.com

Firmware of HighPoint SSD7101A-1 is not user updatable, HighPoint asks you to send it to their labs if your card is one that can use the new firmware, the new one can control the card fan. There are posts about that too on the PCIe SSD sticky.

You can use SSD7101A-1 with or without installing HighPoint drivers. You only need to install the drivers for blade hardware management. Even RAID can be done via diskutility without the drivers. You can move your current blade from a dumb adapter and use with the SSD7101A-1. You can create a 3-blade RAID array for data and keep one outside for boot and macOS - it's the way most people use the card.

Take a look at the HighPoint thread that I linked above and the PCIe SSDs sticky thread, everything that could be asked about this card and NVMe in general are there already, it's just a search exercise.
[automerge]1589305671[/automerge]
SSD7101A-1 is a mature card, current version is PCB v2.00, the only thing that changed in the past 6-months are the new firmware issued for cards that have PCB v2.00 and three-pin PWM fans from factory and these cards have fan control via firmware - you can even disable the fan if you are going to install it on a 2019 Mac Pro.

Some PCB v2.00 cards were sold before the new firmware started to be used, cards made around the end of 2019 should already have the new/current firmware.

Thank you!