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Yankee512

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Apr 29, 2017
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I had the SP4, actually 3 of them. After 3 attempts of Microsoft replacing it due to battery issues, I gave up on it and went and got an iPad Pro 10.5 with Smart Keyboard. I love it. It works great, quick, and does what I need. If I need a windows computer it can wait till I am home or use my work laptop. The Surface line has a lot of quality issues, and I would stay clear of them. Dell, HP, and a few others have a similar device to the Surface.
 
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jrswizzle

macrumors 603
Aug 23, 2012
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McKinney, TX
I was under the impression that the 2017 surface pro had better battery life than the ipad pro 12.9", at least going by stated specs, 10 hours video on the ipad pro versus 13.5 hours on the SP2017. The difference in screen size is also quite minimal, it's hard to quantify though because they are different screen sizes/aspect ratio, but at the very minimum IPP 2732x2048 versus SP 2736 x 1824 is pretty minimal, and the SP actually beats out the ipad in PPI, 264 versus 267. Weight IPP 677 grams versus SP 768 grams, pretty close. Otherwise size is quite similar, once again being hard to quantify because of their different aspect ratios. The pencil, from the reviews I've read, is more accurate in terms of tilt recognition for the most part, but the 2017 SP made some great strides in improving the pen and it's pretty awesome IMO.

Stated battery life means nothing to me. There are articles out there saying Windows devices very rarely get the full stated battery life.

iPad on the other hand ALWAYS goes past 10 hours - at least in my experience. As they've gotten more powerful, its gotten a little worse but my iPad Air 2 could last a week on standby with 20-30 hours of use. It was a monster. My experiences with iPad Pro haven't been all that different - my cellular model definitely doesn't fare as well though....I still hit the 10 hour claim easily.

Also, you don't have to go with the 12.9-inch option. The 10.5-inch model is fantastic IMO and the sweet spot for portability and power.

There's also FAR more to a display than resolution or PPI.....ProMotion and the increased refresh rate means a much smoother and more precise experience for everything. TrueTone adjusts the display to the light around you making it much easier to read in various types of lighting without hurting your eyes and the higher P3 color gamut gives you much better color and contrast.

And I will ALWAYS think 4:3 is the way to go for aspect ratio on a tablet.

As for a photoshop equivalent on an ipad, I think the Achilles heel is the lack of mouse support, or at least that's the feeling I get thinking about how I use a program like photoshop, or autocad, or any other number of very intensive menu/selection type programs. But I haven't tried out Affinity Photo and don't know if it truly replicates the majority of photoshop features. I also quite like the surface dial, makes my keyboard redundant to a certain degree.

I would guess that's what the Pencil is for. You should check it out - I'm no professional photo editor but there are so many options and things you can do. The whole "Photoshop equivalent" was told to me by people who know way more about photo editing than I.

The SP also has some absolutely killer features that I just could never live without, but again just my opinion. The type keyboard is amazing for being so functional, yet so thin. I also don't see how anyone could live without the kickstand on a tablet, I guess maybe one of those flimsy, single position, adding weight and thickness covers. MicroSD card, letting me add 128gb of fast memory instead of letting Apple chisel me on buying more memory. And of course the millions of programs available for windows, which IMO easily replicate almost all apps on iOS in some form or shape. Video out (mini displayport) has been a godsend for using my projector in presentations, no dongles to carry just one small cable. USB port, can't even begin to list the uses this brings, etc etc.

What I do know is the days of the ipad being superior because of size, weight, battery life or screen are officially now gone. The most important choice now is OS and what programs or apps do you want to use. Both are awesome devices, and truly neither of them would exist in such refined forms if it wasn't for the competition the other provided.

Easy to live without a kickstand.....the smart keyboard cover acts as a stand. Same end result. And it doesn't add hardly any extra thickness or weight - certainly not more to make it thicker or heavier than the SP with keyboard.

I don't have the issue with ports - I hardly ever plug anything in. It's all wireless - but I can see how some folks are married to that. The days of Intel chips dominating performance are over - Apple's A-series processors are powerhouses not just based on the fact that they run a mobile OS. That was ultimately my point - performance isn't the differentiator. Saying "well the SP has an Intel i5" doesn't mean jack squat anymore because Intel hasn't pushed the envelope at all.

You bring up plenty of valid reasons to go with a Surface Pro over an iPad Pro though. Ultimately look at the programs you want to use and how you want the device to interact with your other machines and make the decision based on that.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
Stated battery life means nothing to me. There are articles out there saying Windows devices very rarely get the full stated battery life.

iPad on the other hand ALWAYS goes past 10 hours - at least in my experience. As they've gotten more powerful, its gotten a little worse but my iPad Air 2 could last a week on standby with 20-30 hours of use. It was a monster. My experiences with iPad Pro haven't been all that different - my cellular model definitely doesn't fare as well though....I still hit the 10 hour claim easily.

Also, you don't have to go with the 12.9-inch option. The 10.5-inch model is fantastic IMO and the sweet spot for portability and power.

There's also FAR more to a display than resolution or PPI.....ProMotion and the increased refresh rate means a much smoother and more precise experience for everything. TrueTone adjusts the display to the light around you making it much easier to read in various types of lighting without hurting your eyes and the higher P3 color gamut gives you much better color and contrast.

And I will ALWAYS think 4:3 is the way to go for aspect ratio on a tablet.



I would guess that's what the Pencil is for. You should check it out - I'm no professional photo editor but there are so many options and things you can do. The whole "Photoshop equivalent" was told to me by people who know way more about photo editing than I.



Easy to live without a kickstand.....the smart keyboard cover acts as a stand. Same end result. And it doesn't add hardly any extra thickness or weight - certainly not more to make it thicker or heavier than the SP with keyboard.

I don't have the issue with ports - I hardly ever plug anything in. It's all wireless - but I can see how some folks are married to that. The days of Intel chips dominating performance are over - Apple's A-series processors are powerhouses not just based on the fact that they run a mobile OS. That was ultimately my point - performance isn't the differentiator. Saying "well the SP has an Intel i5" doesn't mean jack squat anymore because Intel hasn't pushed the envelope at all.

You bring up plenty of valid reasons to go with a Surface Pro over an iPad Pro though. Ultimately look at the programs you want to use and how you want the device to interact with your other machines and make the decision based on that.

Yep that's why I posted Anandtech's review where he states the battery life as tested, there are many more reviews supporting my anecdotal experience as well. I'm sure as you get into more intensive work the battery life will drop, but that's the trade off of having a full PC. Once again you have to weigh what you truly need. If apps are good enough for you then you are all set. For me I need a full PC, I have many windows programs I need to run, and I find iOS way too primitive for just general stuff. Even basic stuff like web browsing is far superior (in MY opinion) on the surface pro. Browser extensions, true choice to use another browser, ad blocking, website markup, saving files, just to name a very few for example. Don't even get me started on high contrast mode on windows, it completely TROUNCES anything else out there as a dark mode, although it doesn't help iOS there there isn't even an official dark mode. I could never go back to that level of hand holding and walled garden where your only option is white on blinding white, or to use the goofy color inversion.

As for the displays, meh. They both have beautiful displays, I've seen the new IPP's and they don't look much different than the old ones. Marketing at its best. Once again just my opinion.

4:3 is awful on a tablet, just awful unless I plan on using it in portrait mode, which I rarely do. Once again my opinion. But not something I'd ever go back to.

Pencil: Yeah I hear it's quite awesome. I would venture to guess it's better than the surface pro's pen for sure, although it's a shame it is hamstrung by not having the full PC versions of programs on it.

Kickstand: HIGHLY highly disagree, but again personal opinion. I could NEVER ever go back to a tablet without a kickstand, it's so freakin useful and functional. I've tried the smart cover and it's that same crap they have been releasing since the ipad 1, after a few months it gets soft and flimsy, it only does a single angle/position, and it's too flimsy even when it is new and sturdy. Hell no, no comparison at all to the kickstand which is always with the device, has infinite angles/positions, and just makes having a tablet so much better. I also bet that the smart cover adds much more weight/thickness than the built in kickstand, which does not require the type cover. Although the type cover is yet another advantage IMO, it's truly feels pretty darn close to typing on a full keyboard, yet it's amazingly thin. Hey you most probably have to get some kind of cover to protect your tablet, might as well have a keyboard cover.

Ports: Way too may USB devices out there that I like to connect to, although this is getting better with Bluetooth improving. The mini display port is awesome and gets used a lot with my projector. Adding memory via the SD card port is also great, I have a fast 256gb microSD in there currently, comes in VERY handy.

But once again these are nothing more than my personal opinions, I don't expect them to change yours and vice versa. As I said before the ipad pro is a pretty awesome device, and with iOS 11 you guys get a little, tiny PC like functionality. It does sound like the IPP still has a decent battery advantage, but that gap is closing very fast with every iteration of the surface pro. My SP easily gets 10 hours if I'm doing light stuff like consuming content, browsing the internet, watching videos, etc. I guess I can go back to the point where on my SP I can do anything I want, no walled garden, no restrictions, it's MY PC and no one is telling me how to use it. What makes that really exciting to me is that there really is no trade off anymore in terms of battery life, weight, size, etc. I feel like I can have my cake and eat it.
 
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AFEPPL

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2014
2,644
1,571
England
I have both sizes of the new iPad Pro and for a replacement device the surface wins hands down every time without even trying. iPad can't come close to it, however if you just want a large screened iPhone connected to an App Store the iPad wins - but the os sucks big time.
 

thunng8

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2006
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417
Yep that's why I posted Anandtech's review where he states the battery life as tested, there are many more reviews supporting my anecdotal experience as well. I'm sure as you get into more intensive work the battery life will drop, but that's the trade off of having a full PC. Once again you have to weigh what you truly need. If apps are good enough for you then you are all set. For me I need a full PC, I have many windows programs I need to run, and I find iOS way too primitive for just general stuff. Even basic stuff like web browsing is far superior (in MY opinion) on the surface pro. Browser extensions, true choice to use another browser, ad blocking, website markup, saving files, just to name a very few for example. Don't even get me started on high contrast mode on windows, it completely TROUNCES anything else out there as a dark mode, although it doesn't help iOS there there isn't even an official dark mode. I could never go back to that level of hand holding and walled garden where your only option is white on blinding white, or to use the goofy color inversion.
If you need a full laptop experience - Surface Pro is a good choice. There aren't many tablet optimised apps though - so you'll always reaching for the touch pad/mouse or stylus. I certainly couldn't use any of the major apps on the surface pro with just my fingers.

As for the displays, meh. They both have beautiful displays, I've seen the new IPP's and they don't look much different than the old ones. Marketing at its best. Once again just my opinion.
Surface Pro is similar in quality to the first generation Ipad Pro 12.9(2015). If you don't appreciate or require the extra quality of the 2017 models brings to the table - well that's your right. For me the extra quality makes huge difference.
- Much brighter (great for outdoors use. I think about 1.5X brighter)
- less reflections (great for any types of usage. About 4X less reflections)
- higher colour gamut (more accurate photo colour reproduction especially photos tagged as AdobeRGB - it makes a big difference for photo editing - for some photos with large hues of orange/red - the different is very pronounced)
- And of course Promotion for smoother, high frame rate motion. The headline feature of the tablet is actually for me less important than the features listed above

Screen is also significantly bigger. 12.9 vs 12.3 might not sound like much but in terms of area (and because of the AR), the iPad pro screen is close to 15% bigger.

4:3 is awful on a tablet, just awful unless I plan on using it in portrait mode, which I rarely do. Once again my opinion. But not something I'd ever go back to.
I find 4:3 fine. 3:2 on the Surface was fine. I can't stand 16:9 though - not high enough in landscape and too high in portrait.

Pencil: Yeah I hear it's quite awesome. I would venture to guess it's better than the surface pro's pen for sure, although it's a shame it is hamstrung by not having the full PC versions of programs on it.
What full PC programs are you talking about? In my opinion Affinity Photo and ProCreate on iPad is great. The feel of the Pencil in those program beat out the Surface Pen and Photoshop easily.

Kickstand: HIGHLY highly disagree, but again personal opinion. I could NEVER ever go back to a tablet without a kickstand, it's so freakin useful and functional. I've tried the smart cover and it's that same crap they have been releasing since the ipad 1, after a few months it gets soft and flimsy, it only does a single angle/position, and it's too flimsy even when it is new and sturdy. Hell no, no comparison at all to the kickstand which is always with the device, has infinite angles/positions, and just makes having a tablet so much better. I also bet that the smart cover adds much more weight/thickness than the built in kickstand, which does not require the type cover. Although the type cover is yet another advantage IMO, it's truly feels pretty darn close to typing on a full keyboard, yet it's amazingly thin. Hey you most probably have to get some kind of cover to protect your tablet, might as well have a keyboard cover.
The new covers for the iPad pro are very durable. No issues for me close to 2 years now. I found the kickstand digs into my stomach when in bed. In that case the cover is more comfortable :)
Can't say I have a high regards for the Surface Pro 4 keyboard (it was ok) or that touchpad (it is awful). I had to bring a mouse with me.

Ports: Way too may USB devices out there that I like to connect to, although this is getting better with Bluetooth improving. The mini display port is awesome and gets used a lot with my projector. Adding memory via the SD card port is also great, I have a fast 256gb microSD in there currently, comes in VERY handy.

But once again these are nothing more than my personal opinions, I don't expect them to change yours and vice versa. As I said before the ipad pro is a pretty awesome device, and with iOS 11 you guys get a little, tiny PC like functionality. It does sound like the IPP still has a decent battery advantage, but that gap is closing very fast with every iteration of the surface pro. My SP easily gets 10 hours if I'm doing light stuff like consuming content, browsing the internet, watching videos, etc. I guess I can go back to the point where on my SP I can do anything I want, no walled garden, no restrictions, it's MY PC and no one is telling me how to use it. What makes that really exciting to me is that there really is no trade off anymore in terms of battery life, weight, size, etc. I feel like I can have my cake and eat it.

I agree - if you need laptop functionality - iPad Pro would not satisfy your needs.
For reference - Doing heavy lightroom editing - the new IPad Pro (2017) has about 2.5X-3X more battery life than the Surface Pro 4 (and the kicker is that Lightroom on the iPad Pro is much faster) - and I can leave the ipad Pro on standby for days and see battery hardly going down.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
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If you need a full laptop experience - Surface Pro is a good choice. There aren't many tablet optimised apps though - so you'll always reaching for the touch pad/mouse or stylus. I certainly couldn't use any of the major apps on the surface pro with just my fingers.


Surface Pro is similar in quality to the first generation Ipad Pro 12.9(2015). If you don't appreciate or require the extra quality of the 2017 models brings to the table - well that's your right. For me the extra quality makes huge difference.
- Much brighter (great for outdoors use. I think about 1.5X brighter)
- less reflections (great for any types of usage. About 4X less reflections)
- higher colour gamut (more accurate photo colour reproduction especially photos tagged as AdobeRGB - it makes a big difference for photo editing - for some photos with large hues of orange/red - the different is very pronounced)
- And of course Promotion for smoother, high frame rate motion. The headline feature of the tablet is actually for me less important than the features listed above

Screen is also significantly bigger. 12.9 vs 12.3 might not sound like much but in terms of area (and because of the AR), the iPad pro screen is close to 15% bigger.


I find 4:3 fine. 3:2 on the Surface was fine. I can't stand 16:9 though - not high enough in landscape and too high in portrait.


What full PC programs are you talking about? In my opinion Affinity Photo and ProCreate on iPad is great. The feel of the Pencil in those program beat out the Surface Pen and Photoshop easily.


The new covers for the iPad pro are very durable. No issues for me close to 2 years now. I found the kickstand digs into my stomach when in bed. In that case the cover is more comfortable :)
Can't say I have a high regards for the Surface Pro 4 keyboard (it was ok) or that touchpad (it is awful). I had to bring a mouse with me.



I agree - if you need laptop functionality - iPad Pro would not satisfy your needs.
For reference - Doing heavy lightroom editing - the new IPad Pro (2017) has about 2.5X-3X more battery life than the Surface Pro 4 (and the kicker is that Lightroom on the iPad Pro is much faster) - and I can leave the ipad Pro on standby for days and see battery hardly going down.

Can't say I agree about the screen. Looking at my 2017 SP next to this years IPP both screens look beautiful and quite comparable. I don't know how the IPP does outdoors, although I will say that my SP works quite well and I use it often outdoors. From what I read it's 600 nits on the IPP versus 427 nits on the SP, definitely a plus for the IPP but not a dealbreaker in the least.

The other screen stuff I don't notice, but I haven't looked at an IPP all day long so I can't really comment on long term use. The one huge caveat I have is the IPP can have all that, but iOS is still a bafflingly horrible white on off white UI that is just horrendous to use at night or in the dark, regardless of how nice the screen is. I realize I am talking apples to oranges here, but in the overall grand scheme of screen versus screen I consider that a humungous plus for the surface pro that it can be used at night and in the dark. I guess I'm a vampire and you are a daywalker, and that our individual choices suit us perfectly.

12.9 versus 12.3, won't argue with you there. I'd personally love to see a 15" surface pro, but that's just me. But IMO the form factor of the ipp ruins the experience, it's harder to handle IMO. Once again just different strokes.

Full PC programs, well I probably don't have the room to list out the millions of legacy windows PC programs on here. But for starters programs like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Microsoft Office just to name a few. Many of these programs have also been revamped to work nicely with a touch screen, although there is only so much streamlining you can do for a finger before a menu intensive program requires something like a mouse. I understand you like some of the art apps on the ipad, but in my googling I noticed that those apps do not carry the same functionality as their desktop versions. Now you may be happy with the app versions, I can't blame you at all for that and more power to you. But for myself I need the desktop versions, especially for MS Office which has some functionality the iOS version doesn't, plus it's MUCH easier to use with a mouse.

I disagree about the IPP covers, they are the same junk Apple has put out since the first ipad. Nothing like having a fully adjustable kickstand integrated into the device. I can be in just about any position including upside down (yeah really) and I can firmly and stably plant my surface pro at any angle with no fear of it falling down due to a flimsy cover. The SP keyboard is phenomenal, the touchpad is very good but I'm not a touchpad kind of guy when I have the touchscreen right there in front of me, so I don't have a lot of experience as I don't use it much. But still, it's optional and I can go ahead and rip the keyboard off and not use it if I so desire.

Anyhow good stuff, you bring up a lot of great points. It all boils down to personal preference and not much else, we could spend pages and pages writing our personal preferences. They each have their pluses and minuses. For me the pluses just far outweighed the minuses on the sp, and the minues far outweighed the pluses on the ipad. While I appreciate the ipad, I see it for what it is, a tool that was once a necessary evil to create a tablet that had long battery life, was light and small and ran fast. Now that I can have all of that AND have a full OS I could never see myself going back to an ipad ever again.
 
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thunng8

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Can't say I agree about the screen. Looking at my 2017 SP next to this years IPP both screens look beautiful and quite comparable. I don't know how the IPP does outdoors, although I will say that my SP works quite well and I use it often outdoors. From what I read it's 600 nits on the IPP versus 427 nits on the SP, definitely a plus for the IPP but not a dealbreaker in the least.

The other screen stuff I don't notice, but I haven't looked at an IPP all day long so I can't really comment on long term use. The one huge caveat I have is the IPP can have all that, but iOS is still a bafflingly horrible white on off white UI that is just horrendous to use at night or in the dark, regardless of how nice the screen is. I realize I am talking apples to oranges here, but in the overall grand scheme of screen versus screen I consider that a humungous plus for the surface pro that it can be used at night and in the dark. I guess I'm a vampire and you are a daywalker, and that our individual choices suit us perfectly.

Like I said the Surface Pro screen is the same quality as the original 2015 iPad Pro (in fact slightly worse because of higher reflectivity. Brightness, contrast, color and resolution is about the same).

If you don't view or edit photos - then the surface pro screen is fine - there is a huge difference for higher gamut photos. For example on a desktop monitor that is high color gamut you would be paying more than double the price as a standard sRGB monitor.

And no, I don't work with the lights off. The one time I did try high contrast mode it - it thought it looked awful and I wouldn't ever see myself ever using it.
 

spinedoc77

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Jun 11, 2009
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Like I said the Surface Pro screen is the same quality as the original 2015 iPad Pro (in fact slightly worse because of higher reflectivity. Brightness, contrast, color and resolution is about the same).

If you don't view or edit photos - then the surface pro screen is fine - there is a huge difference for higher gamut photos. For example on a desktop monitor that is high color gamut you would be paying more than double the price as a standard sRGB monitor.

And no, I don't work with the lights off. The one time I did try high contrast mode it - it thought it looked awful and I wouldn't ever see myself ever using it.

I can't say I know other than my own eyes, but the newest IPP and the 2017SP screens look quite similar to my eyes. I'd be curious if you have a source. Looking at the 2017SP and the newest IPP side by side I don't notice any difference at all in watching video, web browsing, looking at pictures, etc. I can't say I know outdoors as I haven't used an IPP outdoors. But the SP's displays are far from slouches, actually they are considered to be one of the best mobile displays out there.

Even displaymate says about the SP4: "has one of the very best and most accurate displays available on any mobile platform and OS. It joins near the top of a small set of Tablets that have excellent top tier displays – ideal for professionals that need a very accurate high performance display for their work, and for consumers that want and appreciate a really nice and beautiful display." And that's for the SP4 display (technology that is 2 years old), the 2017SP is even nicer. http://www.displaymate.com/Surface_Pro4_ShootOut_1.htm

Here's another one, here the SP4 edged out the IPP display in color accuracy, yes I'm aware that's SP4 versus last gen IPP: http://www.macworld.com/article/300...edged-out-by-surface-pro-4-in-color-accu.html

AnandTech gave the 2017 SP high marks for its display: http://www.anandtech.com/show/11538/the-microsoft-surface-pro-2017-review-evolution/6

Gizmodo said: "The Surface Pro 4 has the most accurate on-screen colors of any tablet display that we have ever measured for the sRGB/Rec.709 standard that is used for virtually all current consumer content for digital cameras, HDTVs, the internet, and computers, including photos, videos, and movies." http://gizmodo.com/the-surface-pro-4-has-the-most-accurate-tablet-display-1738801322

I could go on and on about the screen, and once again most of what's out there is on the SP4 which is 2 year old hardware. It's top in its class, and so is the IPP with different pluses and minuses. The IPP has better reflectivity and moderately higher brightness, nice for outdoor use, but I've been very happy with my 2017SP and also SP4 outdoors.

As for High contrast mode, it's freakin awesome. It has things that any moron should take for granted, like not inverting graphics. Most everything else is not simply inverted, but includes smart color choices which CAN BE CUSTOMIZED. So if you don't like the colors, you can change each and every individual color to your liking. Makes a computer actually usable in the dark or at night. iOS is NOT usable that way, no matter how much marketing speak Apple wants to assign to its display it's still nigh on useless in the dark. No, high contrast mode is something no one can pry out of my dead cold hands, like the kickstand. But once again, just my personal opinion and how I personally use my tablet.
 
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thunng8

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Feb 8, 2006
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I can't say I know other than my own eyes, but the newest IPP and the 2017SP screens look quite similar to my eyes. I'd be curious if you have a source. Looking at the 2017SP and the newest IPP side by side I don't notice any difference at all in watching video, web browsing, looking at pictures, etc. I can't say I know outdoors as I haven't used an IPP outdoors. But the SP's displays are far from slouches, actually they are considered to be one of the best mobile displays out there.

Even displaymate says about the SP4: "has one of the very best and most accurate displays available on any mobile platform and OS. It joins near the top of a small set of Tablets that have excellent top tier displays – ideal for professionals that need a very accurate high performance display for their work, and for consumers that want and appreciate a really nice and beautiful display." And that's for the SP4 display (technology that is 2 years old), the 2017SP is even nicer. http://www.displaymate.com/Surface_Pro4_ShootOut_1.htm
I'm not saying that it is a bad display - reflectivity is high (not great especially for outdoors use) and the fact it does not support high gamut is a minus (compared to the latest iPad Pros).

sRGB accuracy is great - so if you only work with sRGB then it is a great display. But professional photography and cinema is moving away from sRGB and having a display that supports AdobeRGB, ProPhoto and DCI-P3 colour gamut is a huge benefit.

A small article explaining gamuts:
http://blog.iconfactory.com/2016/04/looking-at-the-future/

It also explains why there is a market for high gamut displays - eg. the HP Dreamcolor touts high gamut support as one of their main selling points.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
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I'm not saying that it is a bad display - reflectivity is high (not great especially for outdoors use) and the fact it does not support high gamut is a minus (compared to the latest iPad Pros).

sRGB accuracy is great - so if you only work with sRGB then it is a great display. But professional photography and cinema is moving away from sRGB and having a display that supports AdobeRGB, ProPhoto and DCI-P3 colour gamut is a huge benefit.

A small article explaining gamuts:
http://blog.iconfactory.com/2016/04/looking-at-the-future/

It also explains why there is a market for high gamut displays - eg. the HP Dreamcolor touts high gamut support as one of their main selling points.

Sounds useful for a very niche set of consumers. Probably made more niche because most of them most likely need the full desktop versions of the programs they use. I totally understand why you prefer the IPP, you are a graphics professional who needs something like DCI-P3 and you can accomplish your work using iOS apps. I'm in the same boat, I need certain features of MS Office that only a full windows version offers, in addition I use EHR software that is proprietary to Windows, and even if it wasn't it would be onerous to use only with a touchscreen and iOS paradigm that usually over simplifies program features. Additionally I need robust PDF markup and security features not found outside of the desktop versions, and I need to work on all those things at the same time with a file system and the ability to simply drag files from one program to the other in order to work on them, all while collaborating through the cloud with colleagues. Lastly I need a mouse, I just cannot see how a program with dozens and dozens of menu options and ways to use it could survive not having a mouse, unless that program suffers in translation as an app.

I have my old SP4 hooked up to 2 4k monitors and that is my work setup, I can run multiple intensive programs at the same time, and I can split up my screens exactly how I want to split them up in order to optimize my workflow across 3 monitors. When I need to I can just pop off my SP4 off its dock and bring it with me from room to room for EHR, test results, or anything else I may need it for. I can even simply take it home and plug it into a dock as a full time PC, but my 2017 serves that purpose. My SP4 is a true computer where I can throw out every single other computer in my life and simply live with just one computer. Once again not everyone's needs, but since we are trading pretty much nothing more than just personal opinion and use case scenarios, that's mine. But the beauty of it all is that I can ALSO use my SP as just a dumb tablet, to consume content, browse the internet, check mail, etc. All without the previous limitations which gave the ipad its birth such as battery life, weight, size, etc.

BTW the 2017SP4 has enhanced sRGB mode which AnandTech gave good results to. On the reflectivity I'm quite happy with my SP2017, 451 nits and still has 1279:1 contrast levels. Even more important IMO is that it goes down to 4 nits, very nice for using it in the dark. In combination with the high contrast mode and Night Light I feel totally comfortable using it in pitch dark. So while I'm very comfortable using my SP in direct sunlight with no reflectivity issues, I also don't lose half of my use because the IPP is unusable at night time. Oh btw displaymate gave the SP4 a "A-" grade for screen readability in high ambient light. Displaymate also rates the SP4 as very good in terms of both ambient light reflections and mirror reflections. http://www.displaymate.com/Surface_Pro4_ShootOut_1.htm

So it's not that I disagree with you about the display, I just think it's something fairly niche that isn't very noticeable unless you need it for a specific work function. For the average consumer they will have zero idea what sRGB or DCI-P3 mean, can't see the difference with the displays next to each other, have no benefit in having it, and even if they did they could care less. But as I said, I can see where you prefer this since your job depends on it, and you can get by with iOS apps.
 
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thunng8

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2006
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Sounds useful for a very niche set of consumers.

BTW the 2017SP4 has enhanced sRGB mode which AnandTech gave good results to. On the reflectivity I'm quite happy with my SP2017, 451 nits and still has 1279:1 contrast levels. Even more important IMO is that it goes down to 4 nits, very nice for using it in the dark. In combination with the high contrast mode and Night Light I feel totally comfortable using it in pitch dark. So while I'm very comfortable using my SP in direct sunlight with no reflectivity issues, I also don't lose half of my use because the IPP is unusable at night time. Oh btw displaymate gave the SP4 a "A-" grade for screen readability in high ambient light. Displaymate also rates the SP4 as very good in terms of both ambient light reflections and mirror reflections. http://www.displaymate.com/Surface_Pro4_ShootOut_1.htm

So it's not that I disagree with you about the display, I just think it's something fairly niche that isn't very noticeable unless you need it for a specific work function. For the average consumer they will have zero idea what sRGB or DCI-P3 mean, can't see the difference with the displays next to each other, have no benefit in having it, and even if they did they could care less. But as I said, I can see where you prefer this since your job depends on it, and you can get by with iOS apps.

It is not niche - and people do not need to know the difference between colour spaces - the images are just better and more accurate for those images - Any photo taken with a dslr or higher end mirrorless camera the difference is very noticeable.

I won't address all your points because most of the advantages you listed are because it can be used as a full laptop which is fine if you need a full laptop - its just that most of the more powerful apps are not tablet optimised.

BTW, Displaymate gave the 2016 iPad Pro A+ for screen readability and Outstanding (Very Good is 2 levels lower than outstanding - there is also an excellent rating) in their reflectivity. Can't see the 2017 models but according to Apple it is even improved over the 2016 9.7" model.

Anyway - that's enough from me. You have your reasons and I have mine - but trying to argue that the display is the same quality is off the mark. The Surface Pro is an excellent display but the iPad Pro raised the bar greatly in multiple metrics. Maybe those metrics are not important to you - but they are far from niche
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
It is not niche - and people do not need to know the difference between colour spaces - the images are just better and more accurate for those images - Any photo taken with a dslr or higher end mirrorless camera the difference is very noticeable.

I won't address all your points because most of the advantages you listed are because it can be used as a full laptop which is fine if you need a full laptop - its just that most of the more powerful apps are not tablet optimised.

BTW, Displaymate gave the 2016 iPad Pro A+ for screen readability and Outstanding (Very Good is 2 levels lower than outstanding - there is also an excellent rating) in their reflectivity. Can't see the 2017 models but according to Apple it is even improved over the 2016 9.7" model.

Anyway - that's enough from me. You have your reasons and I have mine - but trying to argue that the display is the same quality is off the mark. The Surface Pro is an excellent display but the iPad Pro raised the bar greatly in multiple metrics. Maybe those metrics are not important to you - but they are far from niche

I'm not arguing that the display is the same quality, but I am saying they are VERY close. Whatever margin exists between them is basically moot for the vast majority of consumers who will be buying them, with a very small niche of professional users who may want that small margin of increased quality. As noted displaymate said about the SP4 "has one of the very best and most accurate displays available on any mobile platform and OS. It joins near the top of a small set of Tablets that have excellent top tier displays – ideal for professionals that need a very accurate high performance display for their work", and gizmodo: "The Surface Pro 4 has the most accurate on-screen colors of any tablet display that we have ever measured for the sRGB/Rec.709 standard that is used for virtually all current consumer content for digital cameras, HDTVs, the internet, and computers, including photos, videos, and movies". So even graphics professionals should be pretty happy. From then the consumer can decide if the pluses of having a very slightly better screen on the IPP outweighs the negatives of having to use watered down apps.

Conversely the SP has some areas in which it has also raised the bar, IMO areas which are more relevant to the average consumer. Things like the kickstand, high contrast mode, the type keyboard, etc. Lastly legacy programs are getting optimized for touch capability such as the full version of Adobe Photoshop, MS office, Adobe PDF just to name a few, but still retain the ability to break out a mouse when you need to hunker down and get work done. So yes I can drive MS office completely with touch, but in most cases I wouldn't want to. I never fully understood the mobile only crowd, as if you were really going to write your masters thesis one handed on an ipad pro while standing on the subway. Even Apple understands this dichotomy as they continue to add things like a keyboard and features akin to a desktop PC. But Apple is in the business of selling you 2 devices and convincing you that you need both, so they need to keep the ipad watered down.

But that's the beauty of choice, I can switch between a dumb consumption tablet to a full desktop in a heartbeat.
 
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thunng8

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2006
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I'm not arguing that the display is the same quality, but I am saying they are VERY close. Whatever margin exists between them is basically moot for the vast majority of consumers who will be buying them, with a very small niche of professional users who may want that small margin of increased quality. As noted displaymate said about the SP4 "has one of the very best and most accurate displays available on any mobile platform and OS. It joins near the top of a small set of Tablets that have excellent top tier displays – ideal for professionals that need a very accurate high performance display for their work", and gizmodo: "The Surface Pro 4 has the most accurate on-screen colors of any tablet display that we have ever measured for the sRGB/Rec.709 standard that is used for virtually all current consumer content for digital cameras, HDTVs, the internet, and computers, including photos, videos, and movies".
The difference are big and not close. Those statements are just plain wrong in 2017. All standalone cameras and video can produce high gamut output. Just about all 4K bluray and all HDR content for tv and video requires high gamut to display properly. It is not niche it is becoming mainstream. Even web content can be high gamut compatible.

If you even looked at the sample images in the article I linked on a high gamut display the differences are big for anyone not just professionals.
 

thunng8

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2006
1,032
417
But that's the beauty of choice, I can switch between a dumb consumption tablet to a full desktop in a heartbeat.
I think nothing will convince you that your Surface Pro isn't near perfect - well I had one it it was awful experience. Productivity for me was much less than it is now on my IPad Pro
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
I think nothing will convince you that your Surface Pro isn't near perfect - well I had one it it was awful experience. Productivity for me was much less than it is now on my IPad Pro

No it's not near perfect, lots of stuff I would wish for it for sure. As I've repeatedly noted if the IPP works for you then all the more power to you. The IPP is an awesome device, it's just not for me, I could never go back to that level of primitivism even if the screen is arguably slightly better. Productivity was pretty much zero with an ipad for me, even consuming content was an exercise in frustration at times on what amounts to a smartphone interface. But once again we are just going back and forth with opinions, which doesn't accomplish much. At the end of the day you love your IPP and I love my SP and we won't convince each other. I'm just happy we live in an age where I can have a full desktop in a package as small and light, and with comparable battery life to something like an ipad. I loved my ipad when it was a necessary evil and have owned many ipads over the years, but now am freed from those shackles.
 
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