iPad Pro iPad Pro 10.5 with Apple Pencil latency is NOT as low as I hoped

[NicholasPaulSmith]

Correction!

Hello folks

Being a pens and paper artist, I recently tried the Apple Pencil for the first time on the 10.5 iPad Pro.
NB I don't OWN an iPad. I've only demoed it and Pencil instore.

And so, with the videos stating a zero (or was it extremely low??) latency, I was prepared to experience a draw similar to or better than pen on paper.

Was I disappointed!!!? Yes.

In an ideal world, I'd like Apple to work on haptic feedback for the Pencil to simulate lead and ink hitting different types of paper. Imagine being able to select different types of paper grain, DIGITALLY!!

Will the Pencil ever be able to recreate a TRUE zero latency with added "force touch" feeling on a future iPad Pro? Iteration 3 or 4 or 5??

 

[Shirasaki]

Then, do you think a true ZERO latency is really possible? Even a nanosecond latency is still not ZERO latency. As long as the latency is reaching a critical point (aka, low enough), it does not matter much for most people.

Electronic signal transmission needs time. System needs time to analyze the data and respond appropriately. These all need time. I would argue current Apple Pencil with iPad Pro is good enough in terms of latency issue. There are rooms to improve but not too much now.

 

[richinaus]

Then, do you think a true ZERO latency is really possible? Even a nanosecond latency is still not ZERO latency. As long as the latency is reaching a critical point (aka, low enough), it does not matter much for most people.

Electronic signal transmission needs time. System needs time to analyze the data and respond appropriately. These all need time. I would argue current Apple Pencil with iPad Pro is good enough in terms of latency issue. There are rooms to improve but not too much now.

I agree.

It also depends if you are using an Apple native app or Adobe / other developer.

I don't really use it but Notes is basically at 0 latency for me, as in it is not noticeable.

 

[LCPepper]

Hello folks

Being a pens and paper artist, I recently tried the Apple Pencil for the first time on the 10.5 iPad Pro.

I haven't come from the 9.7 so had no basis for improvement.

And so, with the videos stating a zero latency, I was prepared to draw like a pen on paper.
Was I disappointed!!!? Yes.

Will the Pencil ever be able to recreate a TRUE zero latency with added "force touch" feeling on a future iPad Pro? Iteration 3 or 4 or 5??

But what videos did you watch that claimed zero latency? Because it’s just not true.

Apple states that it’s what, 20/21ms? There was certainly no illusion that it was zero.

I have the 9.7” Pro, and yes there is a very small amount of “latency” that’s feelable when using it. I used a 10.5” Pro in an Apple store, and it is much much better, but still not perfect.

But like I said, it was never marketed as such. It’s more about perceived lag/latency at this moment, dependent on the type of task the user is undertaking.

 

[MrGimper]

But what videos did you watch that claimed zero latency? Because it’s just not true.

Apple states that it’s what, 20/21ms? There was certainly no illusion that it was zero.

I have the 9.7” Pro, and yes there is a very small amount of “latency” that’s feelable when using it. I used a 10.5” Pro in an Apple store, and it is much much better, but still not perfect.

But like I said, it was never marketed as such. It’s more about perceived lag/latency at this moment, dependent on the type of task the user is undertaking.

This ... I don't recall Apple stating it was zero latency. If anything, they state it's 20ms, half of the old pro which was 40ms.

 

[masotime]

People are jumping the gun a little. The OP hasn't yet mentioned which app was used, which is important since the software implementation will affect the latency.

 

[MrGimper]

People are jumping the gun a little. The OP hasn't yet mentioned which app was used, which is important since the software implementation will affect the latency.

The software used is irrelevant ... OP is stating zero latency, which Apple has never stated

 

[masotime]

The software used is irrelevant ... OP is stating zero latency, which Apple has never stated

I'm pretty sure no human can definitively detect "zero latency". Even with a real pen / paper, there's going to be nanosecond latency, if only because light takes time to travel from the paper to the eyes.

The obvious implied point is that the Apple Pencil has, in the eyes of the OP, perceivable latency that is not an improvement over the previous generation. I'm not agreeing with that point, but it is better to discuss this when more relevant information is available.

 

[NicholasPaulSmith]

Hello.
Apple have managed to reduce the latency between the 9.7 and 10.5 but the small delay between contact and colour output put me off on the 10.5. I don't have to buy one of these iPads of course. And I won't be but I'm curious how they managed to reduce the latency AGAIN?

Perhaps the tech will improve to be on par with ACTUAL biological and physical sensation one day?

 

[masotime]

Hello.
Apple have managed to reduce the latency between the 9.7 and 10.5 but the small delay between contact and colour output put me off on the 10.5. I don't have to buy one of these iPads of course. And I won't be but I'm curious how they managed to reduce the latency AGAIN?

AGAIN, Can you please elaborate on what App you used to test the latency?

 

[NicholasPaulSmith]

AGAIN, Can you please elaborate on what App you used to test the latency?

The assistant in the Apple Store loaded an Adobe app.
He didn't open Notes.
Frankly, I don't think it matters which app it was.

Clearly this iPad isn't going to please me compared to real pens and paper.
Guess I'm 10 years too early...

 

[spiderman0616]

The assistant in the Apple Store loaded an Adobe app.
He didn't open Notes.
Frankly, I don't think it matters which app it was.

Clearly this iPad isn't going to please me compared to real pens and paper.
Guess I'm 10 years too early...

This is such a personal thing though--can't blame you for not being comfortable with it. I'm only a casual artist, so I don't mind it at all, but I do notice if I draw really fast lines I see the lag, even on the 10.5" Pro. I see it the least with the built in Notes app--that one is REALLY close to a pen and paper feel for me--but that's not the app I prefer to use for sketching and drawing.

If you want ZERO latency, you're probably going to be stuck with real pencil and paper for quite a few more years, unfortunately.

 

[NicholasPaulSmith]

This is such a personal thing though--can't blame you for not being comfortable with it. I'm only a casual artist, so I don't mind it at all, but I do notice if I draw really fast lines I see the lag, even on the 10.5" Pro. I see it the least with the built in Notes app--that one is REALLY close to a pen and paper feel for me--but that's not the app I prefer to use for sketching and drawing.

If you want ZERO latency, you're probably going to be stuck with real pencil and paper for quite a few more years, unfortunately.

I wonder how technology will evolve to allow an approximation of pens and paper? Force Touch exists to give haptic feedback, so I reckon the iPad could have that to simulate running lead or ink on paper...

 

[rowspaxe]

And so, with the videos stating a zero (or was it extremely low??) latency, I was prepared to draw like a pen on paper.
Was I disappointed!!!? Yes.

At 20 ms, I feel the experienced response is very close to practical media. OP may have been using a very heavy brush or a slower app. It is inconceivable to me that someone would balk at the pencil due to latency, although I have other issues with it.

Will the Pencil ever be able to recreate a TRUE zero latency with added "force touch" feeling on a future iPad Pro? Iteration 3 or 4 or 5??

What is "force touch" feeling?

 

[NicholasPaulSmith]

At 20 ms, I feel the experienced response is very close to practical media. OP may have been using a very heavy brush or a slower app. It is inconceivable to me that someone would balk at the pencil due to latency, although I have other issues with it.


What is "force touch" feeling?

I have a Force Touch mousepad on the MacBook Pro. It gives haptic feedback using Logic Pro to simulate movement of the sliders and other aspects. Surely the iPad could be a giant ForceTouch trackpad! I reckon so...

 

[bluespark]

The assistant in the Apple Store loaded an Adobe app.
He didn't open Notes.
Frankly, I don't think it matters which app it was.

Clearly this iPad isn't going to please me compared to real pens and paper.
Guess I'm 10 years too early...

The app definitely matters -- it's a layer between what the hardware can accomplish and what you actually perceive. Put differently, the app itself can introduce latency. It therefore may be worth trying your tests with other apps, ideally under real-world conditions. Then again, it may simply not meet your needs at this point, though it certainly does for many.

 

[rowspaxe]

I have a Force Touch mousepad on the MacBook Pro. It gives haptic feedback using Logic Pro to simulate movement of the sliders and other aspects. Surely the iPad could be a giant ForceTouch trackpad! I reckon so...

learn something something new every day--thanks!

 

[zhenya]

If you want an exact analogue for pen and paper, you are never going to get it with a plastic pen on a glass screen. It's just never going to happen. Latency issues or not.

The experience of writing and drawing on the iPad Pro is different than using traditional pen and paper. In some ways better, in some ways worse. If your only comparison is whether it provides a direct replication, you will inevitably be disappointed.

 

[Mabus51]

The assistant in the Apple Store loaded an Adobe app.
He didn't open Notes.
Frankly, I don't think it matters which app it was.

Clearly this iPad isn't going to please me compared to real pens and paper.
Guess I'm 10 years too early...

Try the new 12.9 iPad Pro with Procreate. I haven't noticed any lag with the pencil in that app or even the notability app. I haven't tried the Adobe apps but the issue you're experiencing maybe Adobe and their garbage optimization for anything Apple related.

 

[NicholasPaulSmith]

Maybe I will try Procreate tomorrow IF they have a demo available with said app installed...

And the notes app. Cheers.

 

[aevan]

Correction!

Hello folks

Being a pens and paper artist, I recently tried the Apple Pencil for the first time on the 10.5 iPad Pro.

I haven't come from the 9.7 so had no basis for improvement.

And so, with the videos stating a zero (or was it extremely low??) latency, I was prepared to draw like a pen on paper.
Was I disappointed!!!? Yes.

Will the Pencil ever be able to recreate a TRUE zero latency with added "force touch" feeling on a future iPad Pro? Iteration 3 or 4 or 5??

Latency may improve, however, I don't expect it to soon. Not because it's technologically impossible, more because most people wouldn't care. Even this latency improvement (and it is an improvement over previous versions) is, I think, more a side-effect of them increasing the refresh rate, than intentionally aiming for lower latency.

Also, note that latency depends on the app. Where did you try it? Procreate has been optimized for ProMotion, but not all apps are. If you tried it in Notes or Procreate and you're not satisfied, I'm guessing you won't be happy for a while now.

You have to realize, there is nothing better on the market currently - in the digital drawing world. And even with all the advancements (compared to Cintiqs, the new iPad Pro is quite better) - if you're used to real pen and paper, I don't think anyone will match that when it comes to 'latency'.

Still, going digital offers a lot of advantages, so most artists are going that route - but when it comes to the feel of pen and paper - nothing beats, you know, pen and paper iPad Pro gets the closest, though.
[doublepost=1505163797][/doublepost]

Frankly, I don't think it matters which app it was.

Oh, it matters a lot.

It's not just the Pencil tech and screen tech, it's the software too. Think of it this way - ever tried to drag a 10px sized brush in Photoshop? Now try a 1000px brush and see if the lag is the same. So, yeah, software is just as important. If the brush engine is too demanding, and if it's not designed to hit 120fps on that 120hz screen, you'll get latency. And not all software is coded the same. From day one, Procreate was designed to hit 60fps, and now - the latest version running on new iPads is designed to hit 120fps. Adobe Sketch isn't.

Try Notes and Procreate and see if that makes a difference.

 

[DaniJoy]

i cant say i notice a fundamental difference when drawing between my old 9.7 and the new 12.9 pro. latency is a bit better but no one i know draws fast enough for it to matter at this point.

for me tactile feel matters much more and the wacom pro pen 2 feels allot better to my hand, because EMR has a better pressure curve, and textured glass to give a tactile feel. im not much of a fan of the slick glass of the ipad pro and apple pencil combo. its nice for the price but is not as refined as the new wacom gear. even the new samsung s-pen feels better than the apple pencil. since i got the galaxy book 12" both of my ipads are just collecting dust. latency is great on wacom gear too. i think pro pen 2 and s-pen topped the apple pencil for this round. I hope they improve the feel soon because the ipad is a better tablet for sketching and simple workflows.

i still like real media much more. nothing compares.

 

[aevan]

for me tactile feel matters much more and the wacom pro pen 2 feels allot better to my hand, because EMR has a better pressure curve, and textured glass to give a tactile feel.

The textured glass is indeed better, but the pressure curve of Wacom Pro Pen 2 (let alone older models) is quite a bit worse than Apple Pencil. I've been using Wacom pens professionally for years and they simply don't compare to Apple Pencil when it comes to pressure curves or precision. Even the excellent, once industry-standard low activation force of Wacom Pro Pens is not as good as Pencil's. And the wobbly nib compared to the solid Pencil tip makes it only worse.

While Wacom pens are still great, Apple Pencil is the best stylus on the market at the moment.

BTW, while the latest MobileStudio Pro and Cintiq Pro models have textured glass, previous generation actually had matte screen protectors that offer a paper-y feel. You can get those for the iPad Pro too, I recommend Photodon MXH protectors.

i still like real media much more. nothing compares.

A nostalgic sentiment and I respect people using real brushes and pencils, but 90% of the industry has gone digital for a reason. The advantages of going digital, in my opinion, outweigh the more natural feel of traditional tools. But, as with all tools, use whatever is best for you, it's the results that matter!

 

[throAU]

Correction!

Hello folks

Being a pens and paper artist, I recently tried the Apple Pencil for the first time on the 10.5 iPad Pro.

I haven't come from the 9.7 so had no basis for improvement.

And so, with the videos stating a zero (or was it extremely low??) latency, I was prepared to draw like a pen on paper.
Was I disappointed!!!? Yes.

Will the Pencil ever be able to recreate a TRUE zero latency with added "force touch" feeling on a future iPad Pro? Iteration 3 or 4 or 5??

Are you using Onenote perhaps?

 

[jamesrick80]

i cant say i notice a fundamental difference when drawing between my old 9.7 and the new 12.9 pro. latency is a bit better but no one i know draws fast enough for it to matter at this point.

for me tactile feel matters much more and the wacom pro pen 2 feels allot better to my hand, because EMR has a better pressure curve, and textured glass to give a tactile feel. im not much of a fan of the slick glass of the ipad pro and apple pencil combo. its nice for the price but is not as refined as the new wacom gear. even the new samsung s-pen feels better than the apple pencil. since i got the galaxy book 12" both of my ipads are just collecting dust. latency is great on wacom gear too. i think pro pen 2 and s-pen topped the apple pencil for this round. I hope they improve the feel soon because the ipad is a better tablet for sketching and simple workflows.

i still like real media much more. nothing compares.

Lisa from MobileTechReview on YouTube would definitely agree with you. She enjoys wacom EMR more than the Apple pencil for most of everything.