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iPhone: Running on vapor
- Thread starter MacbookSwitcher
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I suppose this comes from your extensive experience with the product at hand? Not trying to be rude but a statement like that is as silly as me saying 'the lack of tactile feedback from not using wheels on a car will cause massive usability issues in regards to flying cars in the future.'
correct (partially at least)
correct
Without writing a book for you on how the change in price of a product affects the target market for the product, I will say that the control of price is ultimately a positive goal for the producer as it allows producer to choose and control its target market. Motorola had to submit to the current manner of cellphone service industry practices of subsidization. Thats just the way the game works. Apple is driven to avoid that submission and practice because they understand that price is a direct determinant of product value, and that falling to such practices (ex: Get your iphone for a penny with a 2 year contract) would also force Apple to create an ENTIRELY new phone because the last model iPhone is perceived by the consumer as worth less than a plastic BIC lighter. How will they gain market share? forget looking at the entire cellphone market share as one whole and realize there are target groups within the market. now think about a monster in the shoe industry like NIKE. Examine their prices and their target market, and their market size. sit and think on that one for a bit.
you won't see a cdma version for years due to a 5 year contract currently in play between apple and cingular. Are you forecasting licensing fees for CDMA 5 years from now?
Do you even know what Apple does other than iphone and ipod? They make everything you just described above...they're called Macs and you own one in the form of a laptop. They make them really well, and now they're making a scaled down version. That's THE reason this phone sounds promising. It's made by a company with experience and reputation in making good hardware, software in all in one devices that work well. Which company would you trust to make an all in one portable device with a reputable OS. Nokia? Samsung? Motorola? Blackberry? or Apple?
Most of the game is already being decided at the podium. Mr. Palm is looking forward to being bought out soon for the sake of survival. Mr. RIMM is praying that dotMac services don't allow for similar functionality. They were just about to slam the multimedia consumer segment and now they are cornered back to their beloved Prosumer market and holding on to it for dear life. What impact do you think a Pro version of iPhone with dotmac services integrated and the ability to use and edit docs, xls etc would do to RIMM? Heck, half of the forum browsers on most blackberry websites are already interested, at the least, on what iPhone may have to offer this version or the next.
This thread has taken me like an hour to read, its probably one of the most heated debates I've seen between two Mac fans, you are a mac fan... aren't you MacBookSwitcher?
To each his own
To each his own
This thread has taken me like an hour to read, its probably one of the most heated debates I've seen between two Mac fans, you are a mac fan... aren't you MacBookSwitcher?
Yes, I am. Apparently some people can't see that, though. It's amazing how some people get personally offended at someone else's take on a product. The Mac community has alot of blind zealots.
There's also alot of people, like boss1, who don't understand anything at all about how difficult it is to produce a smartphone. (For instance he is claiming since Apple already produces laptops and desktops, making a phone will be easy. HAH!)
Well I guess thats one of the points of this forum, for us to go back and forth with our opinions, I think the reason people are so up in arms about your comments are because they seemed rather anti-iphone. This being an iPhone forum, most of us are in love with the unreleased device.
Welcome to the Forum MacbookSwitcher, you made one heck of an impression, I dont think anyone will forget your name now. I look forward to reading more of your threads.
I don't think he means it'll be easy, I think he means that OSX on a phone is something that you shouldn't ignore. That kind of operating system combined with phone functionality is the reason I'm going to buy one. I have a BlackBerry Pearl right now, and the user experience is pretty crappy. The hardware and application switching is so slow it blows my mind.
And no, we haven't actually had experience with the iPhone, but from the demo, the OS is very snappy and good looking. That's why I'm getting rid of the Pearl the second iPhone comes out.
It's all about the user experience. If they can make something that's quicker and prettier than my crappy Pearl, I'm sold.
OK, I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I couldn't ignore the above post. Please, MacbookSwitcher, can you explain how you are so much better placed to know how hard it is to make a smartphone? I take it you have industry experience?
All of what boss1 said in his post above was as valid (actually, most was more valid) than your original post, and, as you have said...
So, please, do not describe those people disagreeing with you in this thread as "blind zealots"; they are simply putting across a different point of view.
In fact, I think your thread can be summed up in your own words (which you have now said many times):
Don't get me wrong, this is an interesting debate you've got going here, but most of it belongs a few months in the future once people have actually had a chance to use the iPhone.
I am all for them pulling off a compelling user interface. My original point was simply that making a succesful, name-brand smartphone is a very hard thing to pull off, perhaps harder than most people here appreciate.
Sorry, next time we'll check with you before forming an opinion.
Seriously, your proclamation of being well-reasoned is outweighed by your hubris. There are people who have also carefully considered the iPhone (Apple zealot or not), and drawn different conclusions, or should I say predictions.
You think Apple is not aware that smartphones are hard? That is the very reason they are in this market. If they were easy to do well, they wouldn't have bothered because there would already be tons of excellent competing products from which Apple has no chance of differentiating against.
I'm not saying they are guaranteed to be successful, but it's not like your observations are not already very well-known.
Hubris? All I did was state my opinions on the iPhone, and people are calling me "stupid" and accusing me of hubris.
God damn.
No, that's not what you did. Your opinion on the phone is perfectly valid, and a great starting point for discussion (sorry for the confusion.) It's your overreaction to people who disagree with your opinion-
If someone disagrees with you and specifically discusses the points in your post, calling him a fanboy isn't going to further the discussion.
I call a spade for a spade. I have received personal attacks and people getting angry (over a piece of metal and silicon!) because they didn't like what I had to say. The simple fact is there are many fanboys and zealots here.
I will always defend my opinion to anyone, but I will not debate with people who attack me personally, because they have passed the realm of reasonable debate. In this entire thread, I have only seen 1 or 2 posts that have had reasonable rebutals to what I posted. Most others were as I just described.
I know only a little about the iPhone (a few pics, the MacRumors stories, thats about it) and practically nothing about mobile phones in general. Frankly the prospect of carrying around a mobile phone on which anyone can get in touch with me anytime makes me vomit in my mouth a little, I'd much rather be off thr grid (my wife would call me like 5x every day, that alone makes a mobile phone a self-destructive move). Even the landline makes me angry, when the phone rings at home I curse at it viciously until the machine is done taking a message. That being said, if I ever did bite the bullet and get a phone (which I'm not), I'd get an iPhone, whether it was $500 or $300 or whatever. So I guess my point is, there are people out there willing to pay the money who aren't already power-users / smartphone-users. The iPhone does seem to have gotten into people's collective consciousness.
This issue of frequent price cuts in the phone market is certainly a valid one. Motorola had a huge hit with the RAZR, and hasn't been able to follow-up on it since.
Apple has done a great job of maintaining its price points with the iPod line by continually revving the device and adding new features/power. Coincidentally it has done the same thing with Macs (at least better than PC vendors.)
It only branches out to new price points when conditions are favorable (i.e. profitable), such as with the Shuffle.
I am sure that Apple has a road map for all its products, including scheduled/planned obsolescence. The smart phone market is in its infancy, and I think there will be a lot of advancement in the next few years. So I do think there is the possibility for Apple (and others) to succeed here.
The reality is we don't know what will happen in the short, mid, and long term. But marketing alone does not create viral hype for a product, there has to be something there that truly captures the public's imagination if the hype is going to last (see Zune.)
What we are really witnessing here is not the emergence of just another phone, but of the handheld mobile computer platform, ala the digital music platform (which includes the iPod but also much more.) It doesn't mean Apple will automatically 'win', but it's a bold, potentially company-changing move they have made.
Worst comes to worse, they can always go back to selling iPods and Macs. Apple's life is not riding on the iPhone, and I think the bold nature of the product reflects that. As opposed to say the nth iteration of the Treo, all of which look and operate basically the same (Windows Mobile versions aside.)
Apple has done a great job of maintaining its price points with the iPod line by continually revving the device and adding new features/power. Coincidentally it has done the same thing with Macs (at least better than PC vendors.)
It only branches out to new price points when conditions are favorable (i.e. profitable), such as with the Shuffle.
I am sure that Apple has a road map for all its products, including scheduled/planned obsolescence. The smart phone market is in its infancy, and I think there will be a lot of advancement in the next few years. So I do think there is the possibility for Apple (and others) to succeed here.
The reality is we don't know what will happen in the short, mid, and long term. But marketing alone does not create viral hype for a product, there has to be something there that truly captures the public's imagination if the hype is going to last (see Zune.)
What we are really witnessing here is not the emergence of just another phone, but of the handheld mobile computer platform, ala the digital music platform (which includes the iPod but also much more.) It doesn't mean Apple will automatically 'win', but it's a bold, potentially company-changing move they have made.
Worst comes to worse, they can always go back to selling iPods and Macs. Apple's life is not riding on the iPhone, and I think the bold nature of the product reflects that. As opposed to say the nth iteration of the Treo, all of which look and operate basically the same (Windows Mobile versions aside.)
I'll give you that (and would simply delete my previous post but that leaves a thread hole), but you're not helping the discussion any yourself. No one was that bad anyways, until you specifically made the comment about someone's comments being that of a fanboy- which is a strawman argument even if he is.
No big.
Ho hummm....
Why must people criticize something they haven't used/touched? Until then, it is just opinion and does not merit debate.
KILL THIS THREAD!! DIE! DIE!
Why must people criticize something they haven't used/touched? Until then, it is just opinion and does not merit debate.
KILL THIS THREAD!! DIE! DIE!
See one could argue that praising it without having used it is just as useless. However, I think most people are excited about what could be possible. And most still have their reservations certain aspects.
The OP clearly must have had his sand castle smashed by an iPhone (explains how he knows so much about it). He also think he is more credible because he owns a Macbook, he was very excited to have that in the OP.
iPhone is iPhone. You like it or you don't. There are many things still unknown, but I find it ridiculous for the OP to make what he deems factual statements (like; the keyboard will suck) while later in his OP saying well no one has used it so we don't know (talking about battery life I believe).
Price cuts is a ridiculous notion, not because Apple won't do it but because that isn't how they do business. They will do what they do with their other products; they will upgrade the device. Simple as that.
Motorola dropped the Razr down to $99. Fine and dandy, but they haven't changed much. There is no reason for them to charge the same price. Apple has tons of room to add to the device while keeping the price the same. They can upgrade the memory, internal radios (wifi, BT, GSM, 3G, WCDMA, etc). Heck maybe they could have an "iPhone OS X 2" upgrade. If next year instead of dropping the price, they drop in 3G and 16GBm i would pay the same price. A price drop would be icing on the cake.
Back on track. Apple will drop prices as they can. Look at the iPod it is down to $250, all the while they have dropped the price AND upgraded the tech.
Making a phone isn't easy, but I look at it like this: I will be very interested in a phone from the company who makes my computer and OS. Case closed.
I am skeptical, I think most people are. However, the OP came here responding to things I haven't seen much here (maybe I haven't been looking) either that, or he assumes that people actually liking the phone are blinded by the fact it is from Apple or uninformed or both.
Then resorts to calling people zealots and fanboys. It really is time to drop that from your vocabulary. I suppose people need to whine about something though. A shame really.
Agreed.
I thought Paris Hilton was cute until I saw her in person. She's got the body of a teenage boy and wonky eye.
I guess in the end, the post that started this thread is merely opinion, there's really no use debating it. I know, I know, we are entitled to opinions, but I'd rather reserve my praise/criticisms for the iPhone until I actually handle and use one.
I'm having a debate with a friend right now over this very point. The current state of affairs is that there is no segment of the market willing to pay $500 or $600 for a phone, outside of the business market. (We have already established that the iPhone is not a business phone).
This means Apple has to create a new market with the iPhone. "Getting into people's consciousness" is one thing, but when it comes time to pay, that's another.
Just like no one would buy the PS3 yet people were paying THOUSANDS on eBay. But maybe you are right, as of THIS MOMENT there is no one because it isn't out yet.
There are people that buy $400 smartphones just to be cool. Give me a break. $400 is weak sauce compared to what most people pay for things and phones. People pay $450 for phones all the time.
Besides you are getting a full iPod in their too, I think people will part with their cash. Heck, look at all the people hear wanting one. Please.
Is this true though? The street price dropped to that (with contract of some sort) but you very rarely see an unlocked phone for sale at those prices.
To the OP. I agree that blind faith in this device being everything that people want is misguided. I personally think that the feautureset as described so far isn't enough for this device to sell well in Europe and Asia.
However I do have some faith that Apple will have thought very deeply about this device. It's a bold step going into this highly competitive market and the product they introduce has to be very compelling from the go. Especially at the price premium they are planning to charge.
It will be interesting to watch this one, for sure.
Honestly the point syou are making are pointless(pun!), your never used the iPhone, Apple has. What are the chance they release a phone that sucks? Not very high! Why could the iPhone fail...well look at Apple past failures...G4 Cube, cool product, to much money....Lise, cool product, usefull, just to dam pricy...Apple hasn't have a failure that was do to the device sucking in a long time. The market just didn't want to pay for those expensive things.Now the iPhone, expensive, yes...but its only 500-600 USD vs the 10k or 2k the Lise and G4 Cube were. Is 500 dollar a lot? Yes, but will be people to justify it, yes...why, look at the iPod, the first one was 499 and now its a hit. The phone market is different, but it will still sell. Most people have a lost hundred extra to luxurys, less have afew thousand.
Not to mention the iPhone will sell to pros and consumers alike...how many consumers buy a Palm phone? Not many, however I'd bet some people who don't need all the features of an iPhone will still buy it for something.
Basicly we don't have enought information to judge anything yet...we can try, but at the end of the day we just don't know. I'll put some faith in Apple, and asuming the still know how to make great product.
Now the iPhone, expensive, yes...but its only 500-600 USD vs the 10k or 2k the Lise and G4 Cube were. Is 500 dollar a lot? Yes, but will be people to justify it, yes...why, look at the iPod, the first one was 499 and now its a hit. The phone market is different, but it will still sell. Most people have a lost hundred extra to luxurys, less have afew thousand.
Not to mention the iPhone will sell to pros and consumers alike...how many consumers buy a Palm phone? Not many, however I'd bet some people who don't need all the features of an iPhone will still buy it for something.
Basicly we don't have enought information to judge anything yet...we can try, but at the end of the day we just don't know. I'll put some faith in Apple, and asuming the still know how to make great product.
The comparison between iPhone, iPod and Cube are confusing, its better to compare same product across the brands, rather than compare the different type of products from same brand, brand type comparison only shows the brand loyalties of users, rather than market reality.
The biggest failure of apple is, IMHO, not hardware product, but the lose of the OS war in 1990s to windows.
Finally, I agree with you its too early to tell what iPhone will be doing.