IPP 2017 or Windows tablet?

[spinedoc77]

If you really want a tablet, get an iPad.
Majority of Surface Pro users use it as a laptop, not as a tablet. Even Microsoft always show ads with the keyboard attached at all times. I tried using my Surface Pro as a tablet full time (while waiting to buy the separately sold keyboard), and it is unusable. It’s windows, and sooner or later, you will be facing an application that is designed for desktop UI, and you will want a mouse/trackpad by that point.

See, I don't find this valid at all. I don't mean to disparage how you use your device, because I can't argue with that at all. But I just don't get the "unusable" part of using windows on a touch screen. EVERY single dumb tablet feature that iOS has Windows also has covered, and you can run them just as easily as on iOS. You really don't need windows "tablet mode", but if you need those huge buttons and such in the UI then it is available. Windows overall has made HUGE strides in fixing their UI, you do know that you can adjust the UI scaling and it works universally and even improves very old legacy programs to have larger UI's.

But when the legacy program argument arises it makes no sense because, well just don't use legacy programs then when you are using it as a tablet, or heck don't use legacy programs at all. I've always found the difficulty with using windows on touch to be grossly overhyped, I've never had an issue clicking on a menu or getting something done. Of course this is with the obvious (at least I thought it was) caveat that you're most likely going to want to hunker down with a keyboard and mouse for a legacy program, which usually offers much more depth and options than an app does. But it's really that simple, don't use legacy programs when you are in tablet mode if you find them difficult to use. Legacy programs are just gravy, and I'd much rather have the option of using the tens of thousands (if not millions) of legacy programs out there, but also being able to just use it as a dumb tablet with apps.

And the kickstand...oh don't get me started again... But for the record I'm not arguing against the ipad, I think it's a phenomenal device. It just gets dull to hear about windows shortcomings on touch, and (not saying you necessarily) it's usually someone who hasn't used windows lately and doesn't realize all the changes they have made.
[doublepost=1529351141][/doublepost]

I bought the Surface Pro and gave up. It was better than old Surface 2. I have 10.5 IPP and wish it's stylus was more like the Samsung Note 8. My Samsung S3 Tab is nice, will be looking at S4 in the fall. Again, Tab S3 stylus over IPP Pencil.

The IPP gets heavy to hold after 1-2 hours and S3 is lighter. Size of stylus (no battery to recharge) vs Pencil also.

I sometimes miss Surface Pro. Wishing my MacBook was more like it, I'd try to touch or pick up stylus, then remember.

MS made a HUGE mistake IMO when they dropped Wacom. I like the SP pen, but don't love it like I love Wacom and Samsung has absolutely the BEST implementation. The only Achilles heel with Samsung tablets is that they run Android, and that's been pretty much abandoned by Google on tablets.
[doublepost=1529351401][/doublepost]

This. The Surface Pro offers the worst of both worlds, IMO. Because it runs a desktop OS, it has all of the maintenance issues of a desktop or laptop. Because it has a separate keyboard, it has the same limitations when using it in certain scenarios as a large tablet. Yes, the integrated kickstand helps a bit, but not completely. The lack of a quantity of quality touch-optimized software is a chronic condition that hasn't improved. Factor in Microsoft's track record of problems with the Surface Pro every generation from the current gen going back to the 1st gen, and it is not a very attractive option...IMO.

The Google Pixelbook would be a better alternative, depending upon one's needs.

Bleh, what maintenance issues. My SP updates itself, I haven't troubleshot a SP in years other than simple stuff. Although I can't say it's as maintenance free in terms of the OS as the ipad, I just don't see it as an issue. With the ipad there is no maintenance, you just have apps force close themselves, I guess that self maintenance.

I also don't get the separate keyboard issue. The ipad has a separate keyboard also. I'm also curious which touch optimized software you are missing? I haven't found anything on iOS that isn't represented in some form on windows, although I'm sure there are niche exceptions.

The final decision really rests on if you need the legacy programs and need to be in the windows ecosystem. If you don't, and can handle simplified apps, then I definitely continue to recommend the ipad due to the battery life. Although I personally don't think I'd trade my kickstand, even for more battery life, it's just too darn useful on a tablet.

 

[sracer]

Bleh, what maintenance issues. My SP updates itself, I haven't troubleshot a SP in years other than simple stuff. Although I can't say it's as maintenance free in terms of the OS as the ipad, I just don't see it as an issue. With the ipad there is no maintenance, you just have apps force close themselves, I guess that self maintenance.

I also don't get the separate keyboard issue. The ipad has a separate keyboard also. I'm also curious which touch optimized software you are missing? I haven't found anything on iOS that isn't represented in some form on windows, although I'm sure there are niche exceptions.

The final decision really rests on if you need the legacy programs and need to be in the windows ecosystem. If you don't, and can handle simplified apps, then I definitely continue to recommend the ipad due to the battery life. Although I personally don't think I'd trade my kickstand, even for more battery life, it's just too darn useful on a tablet.

If you have had trouble-free experiences with the Surface Pro, then that's great. I don't want to convince you that you are wrong, or that there are problems that you didn't see. Your experience is just that, your experience.

If the lack of touch-optimized Modern UI apps is not an issue for you, my pointing out the apps that are missing will fall flat for you since you don't miss them. You've already concluded that they are "niche exceptions".

If you haven't had the OS update at inopportune time then you won't see that as a problem. If you haven't had the battery drain overnight because the device didn't go into sleep mode, then you won't see that as a problem. If you haven't had device driver or firmware update cause your TypeCover to become inoperable, then again, you won't see that as a problem.

 

[spinedoc77]

If you have had trouble-free experiences with the Surface Pro, then that's great. I don't want to convince you that you are wrong, or that there are problems that you didn't see. Your experience is just that, your experience.

If the lack of touch-optimized Modern UI apps is not an issue for you, my pointing out the apps that are missing will fall flat for you since you don't miss them. You've already concluded that they are "niche exceptions".

If you haven't had the OS update at inopportune time then you won't see that as a problem. If you haven't had the battery drain overnight because the device didn't go into sleep mode, then you won't see that as a problem. If you haven't had device driver or firmware update cause your TypeCover to become inoperable, then again, you won't see that as a problem.

No, neither of are wrong, of course this is just our preference and how we use our devices. I can't say my surface pro has been trouble free, but really the stuff is minimal and not too much different than my iPhone which stutters, freezes and force closes apps. Apple is no stranger to hardware deficiencies either. All electronic devices this complicated have some issues.

I still don't see what touch optimized apps are missing. Once again not disagreeing, just definitely curious. I'm sure there are missing ones, I just haven't heard of them in all the time I've asked. When I say "niche" I mean niche, as in not a lot of users are looking for them. That is NOT meant to belittle your needs though, but if it's not an app that a lot of consumers are asking for then it doesn't surprise me that it's not on a platform. Certainly the reverse is true as well, there are tons of programs on windows which are not available on iOS.

Windows never updates at inopportune times, because there is a setting that allows you to tell it exactly when you want it to update, and you can even defer updates, I believe it's up to 30 days for non critical updates but I'm not sure. Even if you don't change this, when an update is ready windows asks you if you want to defer it by default.

I haven't had the battery drain on me in years. This was an issue with the surface pro 3 and I hated it, but hasn't been an issue since then. But I can only speak for myself, it's possible there is a hardware issue, I just haven't heard of it and I frequent a lot of Microsoft/surface forums. I've also never had any driver issues, Microsoft is right on the money with driver updates IMO, but once again I can't say it doesn't exist, just never heard it.

How long has it been since you owned and used a surface pro as a daily driver? MS has really improved it more and more with each iteration, both the hardware and software.

 

[Michael Goff]

See, I don't find this valid at all. I don't mean to disparage how you use your device, because I can't argue with that at all. But I just don't get the "unusable" part of using windows on a touch screen. EVERY single dumb tablet feature that iOS has Windows also has covered, and you can run them just as easily as on iOS. You really don't need windows "tablet mode", but if you need those huge buttons and such in the UI then it is available. Windows overall has made HUGE strides in fixing their UI, you do know that you can adjust the UI scaling and it works universally and even improves very old legacy programs to have larger UI's.

But when the legacy program argument arises it makes no sense because, well just don't use legacy programs then when you are using it as a tablet, or heck don't use legacy programs at all. I've always found the difficulty with using windows on touch to be grossly overhyped, I've never had an issue clicking on a menu or getting something done. Of course this is with the obvious (at least I thought it was) caveat that you're most likely going to want to hunker down with a keyboard and mouse for a legacy program, which usually offers much more depth and options than an app does. But it's really that simple, don't use legacy programs when you are in tablet mode if you find them difficult to use. Legacy programs are just gravy, and I'd much rather have the option of using the tens of thousands (if not millions) of legacy programs out there, but also being able to just use it as a dumb tablet with apps.

And the kickstand...oh don't get me started again... But for the record I'm not arguing against the ipad, I think it's a phenomenal device. It just gets dull to hear about windows shortcomings on touch, and (not saying you necessarily) it's usually someone who hasn't used windows lately and doesn't realize all the changes they have made.
[doublepost=1529351141][/doublepost]

MS made a HUGE mistake IMO when they dropped Wacom. I like the SP pen, but don't love it like I love Wacom and Samsung has absolutely the BEST implementation. The only Achilles heel with Samsung tablets is that they run Android, and that's been pretty much abandoned by Google on tablets.
[doublepost=1529351401][/doublepost]

Bleh, what maintenance issues. My SP updates itself, I haven't troubleshot a SP in years other than simple stuff. Although I can't say it's as maintenance free in terms of the OS as the ipad, I just don't see it as an issue. With the ipad there is no maintenance, you just have apps force close themselves, I guess that self maintenance.

I also don't get the separate keyboard issue. The ipad has a separate keyboard also. I'm also curious which touch optimized software you are missing? I haven't found anything on iOS that isn't represented in some form on windows, although I'm sure there are niche exceptions.

The final decision really rests on if you need the legacy programs and need to be in the windows ecosystem. If you don't, and can handle simplified apps, then I definitely continue to recommend the ipad due to the battery life. Although I personally don't think I'd trade my kickstand, even for more battery life, it's just too darn useful on a tablet.

I have to begrudgingly agree about part of that. As much as I hate Windows 10 lately, no I don't think anyone can convince me that two feature updates a year is a good idea, the OS isn't the touch problem. Sure, it's still bloated Windows. But the biggest problem, aside from the bloated mess that they've made by trying to rush updates, is the apps.

Also perception. You can't convince people who already "know" it's bad.

 

[koigirl]

I just ordered a current Surface Pro i5 8GB 128 (keyboard included) from Best Buy at July 4 price of $799. I would have preferred 256 but at this price I will make it work with an SD card if I have to. I've wanted to try one out and will use it as replacement for my aging MBA 11". I am apprehensive as I've been on a Mac since 2000 but I run Windows-only business programs which require re-purchase of Parallels and Windows if I upgrade to a new Mac. So I'm going to give this a try (I have 14-day return window) and see if it works for me. It will make my 2017 iPad Pro with pen pretty redundant although I will probably continue to use it some for couch potato duty. I find myself using iPad less and my Note 8 more anyway in the past year.

 

[Radon87000]

I just ordered a current Surface Pro i5 8GB 128 (keyboard included) from Best Buy at July 4 price of $799. I would have preferred 256 but at this price I will make it work with an SD card if I have to. I've wanted to try one out and will use it as replacement for my aging MBA 11". I am apprehensive as I've been on a Mac since 2000 but I run Windows-only business programs which require re-purchase of Parallels and Windows if I upgrade to a new Mac. So I'm going to give this a try (I have 14-day return window) and see if it works for me. It will make my 2017 iPad Pro with pen pretty redundant although I will probably continue to use it some for couch potato duty. I find myself using iPad less and my Note 8 more anyway in the past year.

The only issue you will likely face is the refresh rate. Once you get used to 120hz everything else feels inferior and the biggest difference is in Safari. After using an iPad when I immediately use another device, scrolling feels laggy in comparison as do the videos.

 

[Ffosse]

I could never get along with Windows anything, whether it was a desktop OS, a phone or a tablet. It seems inferior to Apple in so many ways. Not to take anything away from its proponents, though, we all have choices.

 

[Michael Goff]

The only issue you will likely face is the refresh rate. Once you get used to 120hz everything else feels inferior and the biggest difference is in Safari. After using an iPad when I immediately use another device, scrolling feels laggy in comparison as do the videos.

I wish that technology was on the phones.

 

[kazmac]

I just ordered a current Surface Pro i5 8GB 128 (keyboard included) from Best Buy at July 4 price of $799. I would have preferred 256 but at this price I will make it work with an SD card if I have to. I've wanted to try one out and will use it as replacement for my aging MBA 11". I am apprehensive as I've been on a Mac since 2000 but I run Windows-only business programs which require re-purchase of Parallels and Windows if I upgrade to a new Mac. So I'm going to give this a try (I have 14-day return window) and see if it works for me. It will make my 2017 iPad Pro with pen pretty redundant although I will probably continue to use it some for couch potato duty. I find myself using iPad less and my Note 8 more anyway in the past year.

I am seriously debating trading my iPP in for one today. I hope you enjoy yours.

 

[kazmac]

Microsoft is apparently announcing a new Surface product tomorrow morning which might be the budget Surface tablet. If that is what they announce, I may try it as I do not want to outlay over a 1k for a Surface Pro. A Surface Book 2, okay. I am glad I waited on buying something yesterday.

 

[spinedoc77]

Microsoft is apparently announcing a new Surface product tomorrow morning which might be the budget Surface tablet. If that is what they announce, I may try it as I do not want to outlay over a 1k for a Surface Pro. A Surface Book 2, okay. I am glad I waited on buying something yesterday.

I've got mixed feelings about the watered down surface, but of course that's just based on the rumors that are out there so I'll withhold judgement until tomorrow. If they announce it with a Pentium chip, as rumored, and a watered down version of Windows I'll be very disappointed. I was really hoping they could get a Snapdragon chip in there and full windows support and FINALLY release a tablet with 10-12 hour battery life like the ipad.

I'm also secretly hoping they announce a mobile device, although the odds of that are a snowballs chance in hell. But with all this talk of Andromeda lately, hey you never know.

 

[sracer]

Microsoft is apparently announcing a new Surface product tomorrow morning which might be the budget Surface tablet. If that is what they announce, I may try it as I do not want to outlay over a 1k for a Surface Pro. A Surface Book 2, okay. I am glad I waited on buying something yesterday.

How do you see such a budget Surface tablet fitting in to your gadget lineup? In other words, how do you see yourself using it?

 

[kazmac]

How do you see such a budget Surface tablet fitting in to your gadget lineup? In other words, how do you see yourself using it?

for the Budget Surface: PDF mark up, taking notes, using Office for university assignments (I've had problems with Word on the iPP), and art. Since it will be a smaller size that will make things easier on my commute too. I am getting to ready migrate away from Apple after at least 2 years of attempting to switch and failing. I am very much over spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on iDevices that either break or stop working at the 1 year mark.

I never really quite gelled with the Acer laptop I picked up last Fall and my resistance to Windows was still very strong. Now though, I am over giving Apple my money and time for hardware and software that just does not perform like it should. So I would hope a nice experience with an entry level Surface product will be just what I need to begin a positive experience with Windows at home.

What I really want is a Surface Studio 2.

I've got mixed feelings about the watered down surface, but of course that's just based on the rumors that are out there so I'll withhold judgement until tomorrow. If they announce it with a Pentium chip, as rumored, and a watered down version of Windows I'll be very disappointed. I was really hoping they could get a Snapdragon chip in there and full windows support and FINALLY release a tablet with 10-12 hour battery life like the ipad.

I'm also secretly hoping they announce a mobile device, although the odds of that are a snowballs chance in hell. But with all this talk of Andromeda lately, hey you never know.

That's good to know and I appreciate you mentioning these things as I have not been paying attention.

 

[Michael Goff]

Everyone looking forward to a cheaper Surface will soon run into the limitations of the Pentium Gold that’s supposedly going to be in it.

 

[spinedoc77]

Everyone looking forward to a cheaper Surface will soon run into the limitations of the Pentium Gold that’s supposedly going to be in it.

Yeah, that's exactly my fear. I'm not sure what else they would do, from what I understand the snapdragon tablets have issues running x64 legacy programs and anything else legacy runs in a sort of emulator, so basically you are stuck with Windows S. As much as I dislike the step down in power from a core cpu, it seems like a Kaby Lake Pentium may be a better bet than a snapdragon at this point, I'm just not so sure that we will see a significant improvement in battery life for the trade off in power.

Maybe the world is ready for a surface RT part 2? Windows app store has around 700k apps now, Microsoft Office is fully compatible. And web apps have really taken off and offer a lot of functionality. For sub $400 it might be nice to get a thinner/lighter device with 10-12 hours of battery life (in real life). Although what I said 5 years ago was the Microsoft can't out-ipad the ipad, I still feel this is true. Plus they will probably do stupid stuff like not include the keyboard, not give it pen support, etc.

 

[Michael Goff]

Yeah, that's exactly my fear. I'm not sure what else they would do, from what I understand the snapdragon tablets have issues running x64 legacy programs and anything else legacy runs in a sort of emulator, so basically you are stuck with Windows S. As much as I dislike the step down in power from a core cpu, it seems like a Kaby Lake Pentium may be a better bet than a snapdragon at this point, I'm just not so sure that we will see a significant improvement in battery life for the trade off in power.

Maybe the world is ready for a surface RT part 2? Windows app store has around 700k apps now, Microsoft Office is fully compatible. And web apps have really taken off and offer a lot of functionality. For sub $400 it might be nice to get a thinner/lighter device with 10-12 hours of battery life (in real life). Although what I said 5 years ago was the Microsoft can't out-ipad the ipad, I still feel this is true. Plus they will probably do stupid stuff like not include the keyboard, not give it pen support, etc.

I’m not sure if it’d be better than the Snapdragon 850. Also, I didn’t take into account the lowest end model has 4GB of RAM and 64gb of eMMC storage. Can’t recommend.

 

[kazmac]

Thank you both for going into the details. This is so difficult, I say I want to leave Apple's ecosystem, but I have over two decades of being entrenched in Apple which even with software switches and getting acclimated to Windows, I just don't know. I am worried, but I must be prepared for whatever I purchase to eventually develop some kind of problem.

That said, if the chip you're both mentioning is that bad, it's probably for the best that I skip buying this cheaper Surface. Oh well. Between a rock and a hard place here.

You both called it with the Pentium chip...and of course, you have to pay more to get the proper RAM etc. I might play with one at the stores eventually, but I think it'll fall into the range of the Pro by the time you spec it out, which almost defeats the purpose.

 

[spinedoc77]

Thank you both for going into the details. This is so difficult, I say I want to leave Apple's ecosystem, but I have over two decades of being entrenched in Apple which even with software switches and getting acclimated to Windows, I just don't know. I am worried, but I must be prepared for whatever I purchase to eventually develop some kind of problem.

That said, if the chip you're both mentioning is that bad, it's probably for the best that I skip buying this cheaper Surface. Oh well. Between a rock and a hard place here.

You both called it with the Pentium chip...and of course, you have to pay more to get the proper RAM etc. I might play with one at the stores eventually, but I think it'll fall into the range of the Pro by the time you spec it out, which almost defeats the purpose.

I'd just go for the surface pro, but be aware you will have probably half the battery life of an ipad. If price is an issue go for a surface pro 4, which is still very powerful and probably 90% as good as the 2017 surface pro.

Don't forget if you buy new you always have some time to try it out before returning it.
[doublepost=1531225040][/doublepost]Hmm, I just read through the Wired article. So $399 gets you 4gb RAM and 64gb storage. The 4gb RAM kind of sucks for legacy windows, but this has windows S out of the gate so I'd say it's more than ok if you are not planning to upgrade to full windows. The 64gb storage is atrocious, NO ONE in 2018 should be releasing a laptop or tablet with 64gb storage, that's just unacceptable, especially with the large install size of full windows. No keyboard or pen included as I predicted, bad bad bad, although at least it does have pen support. MS needs to undercut Apple here, and providing at least the keyboard would help it do that. Not to mention chromebooks already come with a hardware keyboard, so this adds an extra $129 to the price, or whatever they price the keyboards at.

Let's see, 9 hours of battery life?!? Terrible, awful. The 2017 SP is rated for 13.5 hours. Keep in mind that in real life, at least in personal experience, you should cut MS' battery estimates in half, so 6 or so hours is more accurate for a 2017 surface pro when doing light computer work. So by sacrificing the core processor and having a smaller screen the GO actually gets less battery life?!!?

The CPU still concerns me. Panos goes to great lengths to describe how all the software was tuned to run smoothly. This concerns me, is the CPU that bad that the software needs to be tuned to it? What hopes do we have of running full windows and legacy programs with that CPU? He says it is graphically 20-30% better than the surface 3. I'm not sure I'd be proud of those numbers against something released 3 years ago.

I predicted RT would die the day of its release, this seems like RT 2.0 and I predict that it will also die. The surface pro 3 at least had a running chance with full windows support, but even that died. You just can't out upad the ipad at this point with watered down windows, especially with having poor battery life. My prediction: DOA.

 

[kazmac]

I'd just go for the surface pro, but be aware you will have probably half the battery life of an ipad. If price is an issue go for a surface pro 4, which is still very powerful and probably 90% as good as the 2017 surface pro.

Don't forget if you buy new you always have some time to try it out before returning it.
[doublepost=1531225040][/doublepost]Hmm, I just read through the Wired article. So $399 gets you 4gb RAM and 64gb storage. The 4gb RAM kind of sucks for legacy windows, but this has windows S out of the gate so I'd say it's more than ok if you are not planning to upgrade to full windows. The 64gb storage is atrocious, NO ONE in 2018 should be releasing a laptop or tablet with 64gb storage, that's just unacceptable, especially with the large install size of full windows. No keyboard or pen included as I predicted, bad bad bad, although at least it does have pen support. MS needs to undercut Apple here, and providing at least the keyboard would help it do that. Not to mention chromebooks already come with a hardware keyboard, so this adds an extra $129 to the price, or whatever they price the keyboards at.

Let's see, 9 hours of battery life?!? Terrible, awful. The 2017 SP is rated for 13.5 hours. Keep in mind that in real life, at least in personal experience, you should cut MS' battery estimates in half, so 6 or so hours is more accurate for a 2017 surface pro when doing light computer work. So by sacrificing the core processor and having a smaller screen the GO actually gets less battery life?!!?

The CPU still concerns me. Panos goes to great lengths to describe how all the software was tuned to run smoothly. This concerns me, is the CPU that bad that the software needs to be tuned to it? What hopes do we have of running full windows and legacy programs with that CPU? He says it is graphically 20-30% better than the surface 3. I'm not sure I'd be proud of those numbers against something released 3 years ago.

I predicted RT would die the day of its release, this seems like RT 2.0 and I predict that it will also die. The surface pro 3 at least had a running chance with full windows support, but even that died. You just can't out upad the ipad at this point with watered down windows, especially with having poor battery life. My prediction: DOA.

Thanks so much for detailed response. Given the price of the Surface Pro with more storage, Pen, Mouse and Keyboard goes into Surface Book pricing, so I think a Surface tablet (Pro or Go) is a wash for me at this point. I probably would not buy any tablet device older than 2017. School is the most important expense right now, so I will probably just lick my wounds and get a entry level 10.5 iPP with the funds from the 12.9”. I have a spare Apple Pencil I never opened too, so I guess I am not switching just yet.

Since I never used more than 25-30gb of storage on the 12.9” (and my movie consumption is waning) I should be fine with 64gb since I offload my art - despite agreeing with you that 64gb is stingy.

I need the 4gb RAM so the 2018 iPad is out.

Oh well.

Thank you again.

 

[spinedoc77]

Thanks so much for detailed response. Given the price of the Surface Pro with more storage, Pen, Mouse and Keyboard goes into Surface Book pricing, so I think a Surface tablet (Pro or Go) is a wash for me at this point. I probably would not buy any tablet device older than 2017. School is the most important expense right now, so I will probably just lick my wounds and get a entry level 10.5 iPP with the funds from the 12.9”. I have a spare Apple Pencil I never opened too, so I guess I am not switching just yet.

Since I never used more than 25-30gb of storage on the 12.9” (and my movie consumption is waning) I should be fine with 64gb since I offload my art - despite agreeing with you that 64gb is stingy.

I need the 4gb RAM so the 2018 iPad is out.

Oh well.

Thank you again.

You won't pay much more if you go with a sale. MS just had a $200 sale for 4th july, I'm not sure it may still be going on. That brings you to close to the price of the IPP. Although the IPP is great, as long as you can live in the ecosystem.

 

[koigirl]

Thanks so much for detailed response. Given the price of the Surface Pro with more storage, Pen, Mouse and Keyboard goes into Surface Book pricing, so I think a Surface tablet (Pro or Go) is a wash for me at this point. I probably would not buy any tablet device older than 2017. School is the most important expense right now, so I will probably just lick my wounds and get a entry level 10.5 iPP with the funds from the 12.9”. I have a spare Apple Pencil I never opened too, so I guess I am not switching just yet.

Since I never used more than 25-30gb of storage on the 12.9” (and my movie consumption is waning) I should be fine with 64gb since I offload my art - despite agreeing with you that 64gb is stingy.

I need the 4gb RAM so the 2018 iPad is out.

Oh well.

Thank you again.

Still getting to know my Surface Pro but I would say that for comparison purposes with the IPP (about $100 more with keyboard and pencil/pen add-ons), I got a fully-functioning laptop replacement. I bought the 8GB 128 i5 for $799 (keyboard included) and added a Surface pen ($99) and even a dock ($135) at Best Buy. I think I paid about $750 for my IPP and Apple Pencil at 2017 Black Friday sale (no keyboard). I also purchased a 3rd party keyboard case off Amazon for about $40 as I considered the IPP Apple keyboard too much $$ for value received. No dock. Like you, I have really grown weary of Apple's pricing structure, increasingly offering less for more with its Macs (and phones). The keyboard issues were the final blow for me as I needed to upgrade my MBA 11 with its terrible resolution but the MBP keyboard issues don't seem to be going away and it appeared I would have to find a 2015 model to avoid them (ridiculous)..... the Macbook with its under-powered processor was a no-go for me. Not to mention I would have to purchase Parallels and Windows yet again to run necessary Windows business software. Many business/school/lab programs either don't have a Mac version or it's watered down. I can run any Windows programs I need to on the Surface yet it also works very well for limited tablet purposes. The pen seems to work about as well for my purposes as the Apple one (note-taking, markups, etc.) and the Surface keyboard with trackpad is really wonderful (far superior to the Apple tablet keyboard IMO). If you are looking for a tablet experience, yes - IPP is king with its extensive app store. But honestly, I use my IPP mainly for web browsing, Netflix, and email and Surface is perfectly capable and sufficient for these purposes. It will be interesting to see how much I continue to pick up and use my IPP in the coming months. So it really just depends on your needs and what you are looking for in a new device. It is definitely a bit of a transition re-adjusting to Windows after 17 years with Mac but I knew it would take some time just like the move from iPhone to Note 8 did. Are you looking for a laptop or a hybrid? Go with Surface or one of the other 2-in-1's if you need a laptop. I have family members with Lenovo Yogas (920 and 730) and they are happy with them. If you want a new device simply for tablet(consumption) purposes, go with an IPP. But you will struggle to use it as a laptop replacement. Just my opinion. I tried. Too many workarounds.

Also, I think the Surface Go looks great for an entry-level Surface experience. More compelling than a Chromebook for me, simply bc I have to be able to run Windows programs. If I didn't need that capability, I would have gone with a nice Chromebook for sure. But the nice ones are not cheap either.

Sell that unopened Apple Pencil if you decide to jump. Why did you never open it and use with your 12.9 IPP? You should be able to get good $$ for it on Craigslist!

 

[kazmac]

Still getting to know my Surface Pro but I would say that for comparison purposes with the IPP (about $100 more with keyboard and pencil/pen add-ons), I got a fully-functioning laptop replacement. I bought the 8GB 128 i5 for $799 (keyboard included) and added a Surface pen ($99) and even a dock ($135) at Best Buy. I think I paid about $750 for my IPP and Apple Pencil at 2017 Black Friday sale (no keyboard). I also purchased a 3rd party keyboard case off Amazon for about $40 as I considered the IPP Apple keyboard too much $$ for value received. No dock. Like you, I have really grown weary of Apple's pricing structure, increasingly offering less for more with its Macs (and phones). The keyboard issues were the final blow for me as I needed to upgrade my MBA 11 with its terrible resolution but the MBP keyboard issues don't seem to be going away and it appeared I would have to find a 2015 model to avoid them (ridiculous)..... the Macbook with its under-powered processor was a no-go for me. Not to mention I would have to purchase Parallels and Windows yet again to run necessary Windows business software. Many business/school/lab programs either don't have a Mac version or it's watered down. I can run any Windows programs I need to on the Surface yet it also works very well for limited tablet purposes. The pen seems to work about as well for my purposes as the Apple one (note-taking, markups, etc.) and the Surface keyboard with trackpad is really wonderful (far superior to the Apple tablet keyboard IMO). If you are looking for a tablet experience, yes - IPP is king with its extensive app store. But honestly, I use my IPP mainly for web browsing, Netflix, and email and Surface is perfectly capable and sufficient for these purposes. It will be interesting to see how much I continue to pick up and use my IPP in the coming months. So it really just depends on your needs and what you are looking for in a new device. It is definitely a bit of a transition re-adjusting to Windows after 17 years with Mac but I knew it would take some time just like the move from iPhone to Note 8 did. Are you looking for a laptop or a hybrid? Go with Surface or one of the other 2-in-1's if you need a laptop. I have family members with Lenovo Yogas (920 and 730) and they are happy with them. If you want a new device simply for tablet(consumption) purposes, go with an IPP. But you will struggle to use it as a laptop replacement. Just my opinion. I tried. Too many workarounds.

Also, I think the Surface Go looks great for an entry-level Surface experience. More compelling than a Chromebook for me, simply bc I have to be able to run Windows programs. If I didn't need that capability, I would have gone with a nice Chromebook for sure. But the nice ones are not cheap either.

Sell that unopened Apple Pencil if you decide to jump. Why did you never open it and use with your 12.9 IPP? You should be able to get good $$ for it on Craigslist!

Hi,

Thank you for taking the time to write an extensive response and discussing your switch.

I bought an extra pencil just in case.

I have an Acer laptop which I will use as my university main driver after this semester considering a virus from a uni lesson nearly took down my again iMac.

I need something small and portable for my commutes, the 12.9” iPP wasn’t cutting it and since I already have an unsealed Apple Pencil, I won’t be paying much for a 10.5”. I will skip AC for it because I know exactly what to expect from an iDevice now. I would not use an iPad as a laptop replacement, I learned that with the 12.9”.

As far as a full blown windows system? I will hold off for now, I have the Acer and will learn Windows 10 on that. I am not really a laptop person, but that is okay. If it can take me through the bulk of uni that is fine.

Thanks again.

You won't pay much more if you go with a sale. MS just had a $200 sale for 4th july, I'm not sure it may still be going on. That brings you to close to the price of the IPP. Although the IPP is great, as long as you can live in the ecosystem.

Even with the sale on the SP 8/128 with keyboard it would still get very close to a Surface book price when adding a pen, mouse and tax. I do not want to outlay more than $200 now if that.

Thanks again for the reply.

 

[koigirl]

Yep you can prolly find a refurb or used iPad Pro which will be perfect for your uses.