Is Apple’s new “Pro = Beefy” design language a mistake?

[Mr. Dee]

I don't think Apple will be trimming the size of the MacBook Pro's anytime soon.

- First, they need to recoup the money they spent on R&D developing new design.
- Apple Silicon geometry doesn't suggest its an opportunity to make it thinner. In fact, if you look at the size of the die's going from M1 to M2, its actually getting bigger.
- Which to me, suggest the thicker chassis is to also anticipate the need for more thermal requirements in the future.
- As far as I can see, we are probably not gonna see another chassis revision until around late 2025 or early 2026.

I am an avid collector of vintage Apple notebooks; currently I have a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet, if you think the M1/M2's are heavy, you need to hold one of these. The fact that this was considered thin and light back in 1998 and easy to carry around was ridiculous.

The same can be said for the titanium and aluminum 15 inch G4 PowerBooks going all the way up to the last conventional Intel 15 inch MacBook Pro. None of these were light in hindsight, but you didn't know any better and you appreciated the progress up to that point and many people had them.

I have a 2015 Intel 15 inch MacBook Pro and I have to say, its huge. I also still have my 13 inch 2015 Broadwell MacBook Pro. Nine times out of 10, I am picking up the 13 inch and even it compared to my 2020 M1 MBP feels bulky for such a sleek laptop. So, I guess it all depends but if you are using it more often that lugging it around, then it serves its purpose in its current for factor and there is no reason to change anything. In the case of Apple, after all that happened from 2016 to 2019, better to be safe than sorry.

I always remember a guy with a broken leg with a 17 inch PowerBook G4 sitting in his lap waiting in JFK terminal for his next flight. When I saw it, my mouth dropped at the screen size and I thought how inconvenient it must have been to carry that thing around. But the reality is, the 17 inch lineup had a vibrant group of loyalist. I feel like if Apple were to reproduce an extremely larger notebook, maybe 18 inch, I probably would be for it.

 

[seriouslyjaded]

This has probably been said already, but hey, here is my 2 cents anyway; there will always be a trade-off between size and performance with regards to mobile computing. You can't defeat physics - heat/cooling can only be engineered around so much in a small package. Any thinner, and the MacBook pro's would probably have their fans blowing constantly (like most of my intel-based laptops have always done) or the power consumption would have to ramp down, and hence so would the performance.
Your best hope is that, when they arrive, the 3nm M chips will be so power efficient that Apple will redesign the MacBook case to be slimmer and perhaps lighter as less batter will be needed.

 

[leman]

Any thinner, and the MacBook pro's would probably have their fans blowing constantly (like most of my intel-based laptops have always done)

Under heavy load, most certainly. But don't underestimate how energy-efficient these chips are on average. Doing your regular bursty work (like opening files or rendering websites), the latest crop of Intel CPUs will boost to use 20-30 watts of power quite easily. For Apple Silicon, this is 5-10 watts. That makes a huge practical difference.

 

[seriouslyjaded]

Under heavy load, most certainly. But don't underestimate how energy-efficient these chips are on average. Doing your regular bursty work (like opening files or rendering websites), the latest crop of Intel CPUs will boost to use 20-30 watts of power quite easily. For Apple Silicon, this is 5-10 watts. That makes a huge practical difference.

Sure they are but they don't design these laptops for being optimal for light work. I, for one, would prefer function over form when it comes to pro laptops designed for work, not just for browsing the web and looking at YouTube. And I am so over fan noise from my Intel-based laptops which are way too thin for the chips in them with underperforming cooling.

 

[pete1]

having suffered the misery of a 2018 macbook pro, i beg you to please not take away the current 16" model for people who value performance. by all means, wish for a "powerful enough" macbook air, but there's a reason for for pairing tiers of chips with chassis designs.

This exactly. My 2019 Macbook Pro 16" is way too thin and it's been a disappointing experience from day one. It constantly overheats and throttles, and the lack of clearance between keyboard and screen means that any tiny grit on the top case damages the screen or at least makes it dirty when I close the lid of the machine. At least I don't have the keyboard issues, thank God.

 

[leman]

This exactly. My 2019 Macbook Pro 16" is way too thin and it's been a disappointing experience from day one. It constantly overheats and throttles, and the lack of clearance between keyboard and screen means that any tiny grit on the top case damages the screen or at least makes it dirty when I close the lid of the machine. At least I don't have the keyboard issues, thank God.

It's definitely not too thin. It's the internal hardware that draws too much power. Put that Intel i9 in the current M1 Max chassis and your experience wouldn't be any different.

 

[coffeemilktea]

To be fair, the regular MacBook Air has gotten powerful enough for nearly everyone, even after taking throttling into account, so there's no need to stick with the "beefy" MacBook Pro if you don't want to.

(seriously, the humble M2 Air can handle even 4K video editing these days)

 

[heretiq]

I don't think Apple will be trimming the size of the MacBook Pro's anytime soon.

- First, they need to recoup the money they spent on R&D developing new design.
- Apple Silicon geometry doesn't suggest its an opportunity to make it thinner. In fact, if you look at the size of the die's going from M1 to M2, its actually getting bigger.
- Which to me, suggest the thicker chassis is to also anticipate the need for more thermal requirements in the future.
- As far as I can see, we are probably not gonna see another chassis revision until around late 2025 or early 2026.

I am an avid collector of vintage Apple notebooks; currently I have a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet, if you think the M1/M2's are heavy, you need to hold one of these. The fact that this was considered thin and light back in 1998 and easy to carry around was ridiculous.

The same can be said for the titanium and aluminum 15 inch G4 PowerBooks going all the way up to the last conventional Intel 15 inch MacBook Pro. None of these were light in hindsight, but you didn't know any better and you appreciated the progress up to that point and many people had them.

I have a 2015 Intel 15 inch MacBook Pro and I have to say, its huge. I also still have my 13 inch 2015 Broadwell MacBook Pro. Nine times out of 10, I am picking up the 13 inch and even it compared to my 2020 M1 MBP feels bulky for such a sleek laptop. So, I guess it all depends but if you are using it more often that lugging it around, then it serves its purpose in its current for factor and there is no reason to change anything. In the case of Apple, after all that happened from 2016 to 2019, better to be safe than sorry.

I always remember a guy with a broken leg with a 17 inch PowerBook G4 sitting in his lap waiting in JFK terminal for his next flight. When I saw it, my mouth dropped at the screen size and I thought how inconvenient it must have been to carry that thing around. But the reality is, the 17 inch lineup had a vibrant group of loyalist. I feel like if Apple were to reproduce an extremely larger notebook, maybe 18 inch, I probably would be for it.

Good points @Mr. Dee. I really appreciate your history and first hand experience with the Mac laptops. To this day, I have fond memories of my bulky 6.6 pound 2011 17” MacBook Pro and found it hard to “downgrade” to the 15” Pro when the 17” was discontinued, but I eventually adjusted and learned to appreciate the more “streamlined” 15” models including the 2019 15” Intel with TouchBar.

So to be clear, I’m comparing the M1 Max MacBook Pro to the 2019 Intel MacBook Pro. While the dimensions are similar (M1 has slightly larger HxWxD), the M1 *feels* noticeably heavier (4.8 pounds vs 4.02 pounds) — especially while lugging it along with the also dense 140 Watt power adapter and 13.9” M1 iPad Pro through an airport and trying to use it inflight which can happen 2-4 times a month for me.

I’m also not wishing that Apple change the M1 MacBook Pro design as the features and dimensions clearly resonate with a lot of people.

Instead I’m wondering (out loud) whether the added bulkiness (dimensions + weight) of the current Pro might cause others to consider trading “down” from a MacBook Pro to the rumored 15” MacBook Air to get a lighter, less bulky Mac notebook with “Semi-Pro” CPU/GPU performance but without some of the added “Pro” features that contribute to the bulkiness (mini LED, HDMI, CF slot, extra Thunderbolt ports, top of the line SOC performance, etc).

The fact that this mythical device would likely costs less than a MacBook Pro prompted the question of whether it was a strategic mistake for Apple to force customers to trade down for this reason — when it appears that Apple Silicon could possibly support near M1 Max-like performance in a larger, passively cooled 15” Air with 3nm SOC.

Keep hope alive! 😂

 

[ian87w]

People seem to be missing what was actually so great about the designs in the past..

Yes, the laptops were thick still -- but the designs made us think and feel as though they were thinner than reality.

That's awesome design.

Now they've just punted and made a big thick rectangle with really no interesting "shape"... and huge feet that look like "clogs"

Agree.
Take the M1 Macbook Air and the M2 Macbook Air. Number wise, the M2 is lighter. However, when I handle them, the M1 feels lighter thanks to the wedge shape, making it easier to grab thanks to the sloped edges. The M2 feels like a dense heavier piece of metal in comparison.

 

[heretiq]

To be fair, the regular MacBook Air has gotten powerful enough for nearly everyone, even after taking throttling into account, so there's no need to stick with the "beefy" MacBook Pro if you don't want to.

(seriously, the humble M2 Air can handle even 4K video editing these days)

I agree — though my use case requires 15” retina quality display, 32GB RAM + 12 Core CPU and 32 Core GPU. I’m hoping to see a comparable SOC option in the rumored 15” Air!

 

[leman]

Agree.
Take the M1 Macbook Air and the M2 Macbook Air. Number wise, the M2 is lighter. However, when I handle them, the M1 feels lighter thanks to the wedge shape, making it easier to grab thanks to the sloped edges. The M2 feels like a dense heavier piece of metal in comparison.

So interesting how subjective experience can differ. For me it's the other way around; while yes, the new designs feel more "heavy" to me, they also appear more "solid" (for the lack of better word?) and I find the new chassis easier to grab and hold onto. With the sloped edges I was always worried about dropping the laptop, now I feel like it's safe in my grip.

 

[ric22]

So interesting how subjective experience can differ. For me it's the other way around; while yes, the new designs feel more "heavy" to me, they also appear more "solid" (for the lack of better word?) and I find the new chassis easier to grab and hold onto. With the sloped edges I was always worried about dropping the laptop, now I feel like it's safe in my grip.

With big hands the M2 is much harder to pick up one handed. Irritatingly so. It genuinely baffles me how anyone prefers the M2 shape, but different strokes for different folks!

 

[leman]

With big hands the M2 is much harder to pick up one handed. Irritatingly so. It genuinely baffles me how anyone prefers the M2 shape, but different strokes for different folks!

Im a 2m big dude. My hands are anything but small 😁

 

[heretiq]

Yeah that’s not a new design language, the Pro is/was thicker and heavier but more powerful than the Air, always.

Yes @redheeler (love the username and dog breed by the way! 😉) the Pro was always thicker and heavier than the Air as you said; but it was never so much heavier that it prompted me to consider trading down to the Air for lighter weight — even though I truly need the SOC horsepower of the M1 Max Pro. That’s what prompted the thread.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Good points @Mr. Dee. I really appreciate your history and first hand experience with the Mac laptops. To this day, I have fond memories of my bulky 6.6 pound 2011 17” MacBook Pro and found it hard to “downgrade” to the 15” Pro when the 17” was discontinued, but I eventually adjusted and learned to appreciate the more “streamlined” 15” models including the 2019 15” Intel with TouchBar.

So to be clear, I’m comparing the M1 Max MacBook Pro to the 2019 Intel MacBook Pro. While the dimensions are similar (M1 has slightly larger HxWxD), the M1 *feels* noticeably heavier (4.8 pounds vs 4.02 pounds) — especially while lugging it along with the also dense 140 Watt power adapter and 13.9” M1 iPad Pro through an airport and trying to use it inflight which can happen 2-4 times a month for me.

I’m also not wishing that Apple change the M1 MacBook Pro design as the features and dimensions clearly resonate with a lot of people.

Instead I’m wondering (out loud) whether the added bulkiness (dimensions + weight) of the current Pro might cause others to consider trading “down” from a MacBook Pro to the rumored 15” MacBook Air to get a lighter, less bulky Mac notebook with “Semi-Pro” CPU/GPU performance but without some of the added “Pro” features that contribute to the bulkiness (mini LED, HDMI, CF slot, extra Thunderbolt ports, top of the line SOC performance, etc).

The fact that this mythical device would likely costs less than a MacBook Pro prompted the question of whether it was a strategic mistake for Apple to force customers to trade down for this reason — when it appears that Apple Silicon could possibly support near M1 Max-like performance in a larger, passively cooled 15” Air with 3nm SOC.

Keep hope alive! 😂

The future revisions of the Apple Silicon might work in your favor. If they do introduce a 15 inch Air, just like Mac Mini with M2 Pro, there will likely be that option in the 15 inch too. Its just that its gonna be throttled since it will be fanless. Personally, I think for you, you should have multiple MacBooks.

 

[boss.king]

With big hands the M2 is much harder to pick up one handed. Irritatingly so. It genuinely baffles me how anyone prefers the M2 shape, but different strokes for different folks!

I disagree. I have pretty big hands and have no issues picking up the M2 Air. Just last week I was setting up an M1 Air for a family member and using it alongside my M2, and I actually found the M2 to feel nicer in the hand (although they were roughly equally easy to pick up).

 

[teh_hunterer]

I need the 12 core CPU and 32 Core GPU to run discrete event simulations and visualize results as fast as possible. The difference between 30 minutes to run 20 iterations of a one-year complex simulation vs 45 minutes to do the same thing is huge — especially when collaborating with others and relying on simulation results to help others think through problems and solution with each run.

Sounds like you simply need the power.

I'd keep the 16" MacBook and grab an 11" iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard to use as a travel and on the go device. It's a wonderful device for airport/plane use (kept me sane on a couple of 20+ hour flights last year). I don't think you'll be happy going from the 120hz Mini LED screen to an iPad Air. While the 11" Pro is not Mini LED, it's still a good 120hz display and I personally don't notice the loss of Mini LED when going between it and my 14" Pro.

While the 12.9" iPad Pro is smaller than your MacBook, it's not really very good as an 'on the go' device. With the Magic Keyboard it's heavier than a MacBook Air. But the 11" is in a size and weight class of its own.

Edit: I have to say though, there's almost 0 chance the 15" Air is going to end up with an M2 Pro.

 

[ric22]

Im a 2m big dude. My hands are anything but small 😁

Haha! Don't you find the device slides away from you when you try to poke your fingers under it? Maybe your desk isn't as slippery as mine 😅

 

[boss.king]

Haha! Don't you find the device slides away from you when you try to poke your fingers under it? Maybe your desk isn't as slippery as mine 😅

I just grabbed my laptop to see how I do it and it seems I put my thumb on the lid and then scoop under the side with my fingers. It does sometimes slide, but the same was true with any other Macs I’ve used.

 

[johnmacward]

Holy hell, the fact that people complain about the difference between 400g more and a few extra millimetres of height quite literally confounds me. What's really your want here? A piece of paper, that remains rigid and has the power of a supercomputer and yet the coolness of a fridge, and lasts for 2 days without a recharge and weighs 8 grams. The machine is pro, it's supposed to be a decent weight, a good construction which puts up with hard workloads, plenty of heat, and gets rid of it, extensibility, ports that aren't all just 2mm in height etc. Yes, we'd all love a MacBook Air design with ALL the advantages of a Pro but we can't yet break reality to achieve that. It might be the case in 2 to 5 years that something like that becomes a reality but workloads will also move on too, and will still require cooling, extra battery density etc.

if you need a Pro machine then you need it, but you can't break physics and have a simulation finish in 30 minutes without generating heat and sufficiently getting rid of it, and the Pro for all that is an excellent piece of engineering and is NOT too bulky, really objectively I would proffer. It would be nice to explain to us how exactly its bulk affects you in a real way. Does it not fit in an existing sleeve or bag pocket and does that annoy you? Are you weak in the wrists and struggle to pick it up with one hand compared to an Air? What is this BULK that you talk about for something that weighs just 1.6kgs and is a smidgen taller than an Air.

Your argument sounds more to me like a future want, which everything given, might be possible for sure in a while but given your needs now this is absolutely the best that ANY manufacturer can do. The MBP is an engineering marvel as is the Air, but their capabilities are different and those capabilities very logically correspond to their size and weight.

Your entire post seems to read as though you have pretty severe limitations if something isn't small and compact enough, and that may absolutely be your reality, maybe from a health point of view or physical capabilities - referring to your words on ditching iPhone if the Mini no longer existed and using the Apple Watch as a phone (which for me would be an absolute nightmare as I think it might be for most people, that would be truly limiting if you message a lot and you wouldn't have WhatsApp OR many third party apps, so good luck on that one).

But your blanket statement that "the MacBook Pro is too damn bulky" is simply not true, as for you it might be, so better write "for me the MBP is TOO bulky". But for us who waited for a true Pro machine that didn't have a crap thermal envelope, useless limiting ports, poor battery life all because Apple preferred THINNESS over actually PRO performance. For those who want a truly pro machine I can safely say that 90% of us don't care about its "bulk".

 

[johnmacward]

Relatively thin is .. relative lol. In my case thinness and weight is relative to the 15” MacBook Pro, the 4th gen iPad Pro and iPhone 10 X — all of which are lighter and more portable than their successors. But you’re right in pointing out that compared to comparable non Apple alternatives ther are indeed relatively thin. 🤓

But we're not really comparing like with like. Those older models contained ridiculously hot Intel i7's and i9's that were thermally throttled, battery sapping monsters along with a useless lineup of USB-C ports that forced us to donglify our lives (which are very arguably the worst idea in history) and along with a butchered butterfly keyboard that all screamed thinness is more important than pro performance. Those old MacBooks were to a great extent manufacturing mistakes and only the M1 Pro and Max changed that and finally treated Pros like the pros they are.

Be careful to compare like with like.

 

[leman]

Haha! Don't you find the device slides away from you when you try to poke your fingers under it? Maybe your desk isn't as slippery as mine 😅

Just tried it out and I stand corrected. Picking up with one hand is a no-go. But holding is more comfortable with the new chassis. With the old I was always afraid it would fall down.

 

[iPadified]

I do wish people separate power measured in Watts from performance measured in either max operations, operation/second or operations/watt.End of the day we all need/want better performance but but at the expense of increased power usage. Guess why Intel is in trouble.

Old model: Higher power to drive chips but comparably low performance out and lots of heat. Poor battery life.
New model Lower power to drive chips but higher performance and less heat generated. Good battery life.

I think the only laptop pushing the boarders is the MacBook Air without a fan. So I guess the OP wonders how much performance thet can be squeezed into a MacBook Air package. M2 Pro? Do we know the thermal headroom of the new "Air" case?

 

[ric22]

Just tried it out and I stand corrected. Picking up with one hand is a no-go. But holding is more comfortable with the new chassis. With the old I was always afraid it would fall down.

I agree the M2 feels less like it's going to slip away from you when you hold it one handed. Not that I've dropped any of my laptops, luckily! Until the new design came out, I didn't realise I usually scoop my laptops up single handed. By the way, if you poke your fingers fast towards one of the corners, you should be able to get them under it that way. I seem to have got the hang of it now, if I do it just right.

 

[jlc1978]

I find the whole thing silly. I swear every YouTube review I’ve seen on a Mac bases the performance how well how well it renders video to create YouTube videos. Is everyone buying a Mac for making videos to review a Macs?

I’m not saying there aren’t people buying Macs to make YouTube videos, but I can’t believe the majority are sold for that purpose.

It's emblematic of the fact people assume their specific use case represents the majority use case and thus Apple (or anyone else) should be making machines for that use case; when in reality their, as most other, use cases are a small percentage of the user base.

Personally the labels are meaningless.

There should be two types of machines, a light one and a beefy one.

There are - Air and Pro; as we al know.

If the machine you're looking for fall into anywhere in between, unless the market is sizable enough for it and if Tim Apple decides to gamble on it, then you gotta pick either side. Either pony up the extra or settle for something a bit less. They can't make the perfect machine for every single one of us.

That's the key - a new model must expand the base, not cannibalize sales from more expensive machines. Unless a new machines total revenue (at the same margin) exceeds that lost from cannibalization there is no reason to introduce one.

Well said — I love my 16” M1 Mac MacBook Pro, but the difference in weight and size from the 15” MacBook Pro results noticeable regression in experience when used on the go for me. And, like you I’m not fixated on the name — I just want a more portable device with comparable power to the M1 Max MacBook Pro.

Here's the conundrum - you'd now have 2 machines for the same essentially market; with one having fewer ports, smaller battery, etc. to make it smaller and lighter. If you price it significantly lower, people may be tempted to buy it instead of the more expensive version and live with a dongle to get the ports you need, resulting in lower revenue.

Others will stick with the bigger machine because they want what it offers. As a result, you know have roughly the same amount of sales, lower revenue and, since there are fewer units of each model to spread the fixed costs over, lower margins. Not a good thing.

I use my Mac professionally and travel frequently so I value portability, need lots of memory and high CPU/GPU performance, but don’t need lots of built in ports, CF card slot, Mimi LED or ProMotion — do I qualify as a pro?

Sure; but there are also users who travel a lot and need those things. I went from a 15 to a 14 because the 16 was just to big and heavy and I don't need the larger screen.

The actual mistake imo is the cost cutting methods by halving the NAND chips (as such halving the SSD speed)

Apple should have just used a single chip in the M1 and then there'd be no bitching about something that makes no difference in real world performance to 99% of the users. I'd have used single chips for the low end MBP and 2 at the high end to further differentiate the models.