MP 1,1-5,1 Is High Sierra firmware upgrade backward compatible with OSX 10.6 ?

[Superlead]

I work with a 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 and 2010 Mac Pro 5,1 which both have Mac OSX 10.6.x installed .
The Mac Pro 5,1 also has 10.7.5 Lion , El Capitan ( 10.11.6 ?) and Sierra ,installed on different internal and external Hard Disks .
I would like to update my Sierra HD to High Sierra to be able to buy Logic pro X and when i try to do it , i'm told that i need to upgrade my Mac pro 5,1 EFI/ firmware ( MP51.007F.B03 / 1.39f11) but i would like to be sure to still be able to boot my Mac pro with all my older OSX's since the 10.6 ( Snow Leopard ) before upgrading the EFI/ firmware , knowing i have all the OSX since that 10.6 installed on some hard disks or at least the installers for some of them and some softwares and hardwares ( like a big Pro Tools HDX ) compatible with some of these OSX ( especialy with 10.6 ) i need to use !

So , is the High Sierra firmware upgrade backward compatible with all the older OSX since the 10.6 ?

I read on the net it should work at least since the 10.6.8 but not earlier ( my Mac Pro 5,1 10.6 is a 10.6.6 actualy ) and let me boot my Mac pro with all the OSX since 10.6.8 , is that true or does it work with older 10.6 as well ( or does not boot with 10.6 anymore and maybe other OSX as well ) ?

I also read it would not boot with a 10.6.3 DVD installer anymore , some say it would boot with a 10.6.4 DVD whereas some other posts specify it would not boot anymore from any of these DVD installers , so i don't know what to believe !

 

[tsialex]

EFI firmware updates has nothing to do with your capability of booting supported macOS releases and you can boot any past macOS releases that support your Mac.

Earlier 10.6 releases don't support MP5,1, since MP5,1 support starts with Mac OS X 10.6.4 (10F2521, 10F2554):

It's the distribution file inside the macOS installer that defines what Macs are supported. Earlier releases than 10.6.4 (10F2521) don't support MP5,1 and are not bootable with a MP5,1.

BootROM version has nothing to do with macOS support whatsoever, while no one tested earlier than 10.6.8, you surely can boot up to the initial 10.6.4 release that supports MP5,1.

A Mac Pro early-2009 flashed with a MP5,1 firmware will behave exactly like a MP5,1 with everything except the SMC version, so, you lose the capability of booting Leopard and anything earlier than 10.6.4 (10F2521) with a MP4,1>5,1.

Read more here:

MP5,1: What you have to do to upgrade to Mojave (BootROM upgrade instructions thread)

Please fully read this first post, you will probably find that you have one or more problems described into the various notes below. Mojave will only install if you have upgraded your BootROM to the current release and your Mac Pro have a Metal capable GPU*. If you are trying to install Mojave...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Superlead]

Thanks for your answer and for the link i will try to read as it is a subject that interests me ( although 63 pages might be long !).

I had read some of those infos on this forum here , in those topics :

Will 10.13 Firmware for Mac Pro 5,1 Kill Yosemite Compatibility?

Hi! Im about to take the plunge and upgrade to High Sierra. I'm running an 09' Mac Pro 4,1 that has been flashed to 5,1 and is running Yosemite 10.10.5. I have made a bootable clone drive of this Yosemite system, because there are some apps I may need to use that are not compatible with High...

forums.macrumors.com

TO DO or NOT TO DO 4,1 to 5,1 Firmware Update

Is anyone 100% sure that executing the 4,1 to 5,1 Firmware Update won't adversely effect ANYTHING regarding the 4,1 hardware once the firmware is implemented? I currently run a 4,1 Mac Pro 8-Core / duo 2.26MHz with 48GB mem (Tri-Channel configured) with a vB07 Boot. This machine presently runs...

forums.macrumors.com

How do I downgrade 2012 Mac Pro firmware to 2010?

I have had enough of Yosemite (incompatibility issues, stability issues, slow speeds etc...) so I want to go to Snow Leopard. The problem is, is that snow leopard isn't supported on my 2012 Mac Pro (3.2Ghz). I know that the 2010 mac pro is identical to the 2012, and that a lot of people with...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Superlead]

If i remember well the OSX Snow Leopard installer DVD i used with my mac pro 2010 and 2009 was the 10.6.4 .
My mac pro 5,1 2010 came with Lion installed , i think it was 10.7.x that i updated to 10.7.5 and i had to buy the USB OSX Lion installer i still have but never had to use ( i am not sure it was given with the Mac pro 5,1 but i really wanted to have an installer , so i bought it if i remember well , as i think it was not given with the mac ) .
I don't remember with what OSX came my 2009 4,1 , i think it might have been Snow Leopard already installed but i remember i had to fight with Apple to get the DVD installer of Snow Leopard as my DVD is not the usual DVD with colors and apple logo on it but an after market DVD copy made by Apple , specified Not for Resale that was shipped to me by Apple a few days or weeks after i really bothered them to get it ( it took me several phone calls to get it !) .
if i remember well , when i bought my 4,1 in late 2009 or very early 2010 , it was the very begining when Apple started to sell their Mac Pro without DVD installer but there was not yet the USB installer sold for Lion in 2010 and the Snow Leopard DVD installer was not possible to buy anymore .
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It is interesting you speak about the Mac pro 4,1 to 5,1 as it was also a question i wanted to ask but i did not know if i could ask it here as well or open another topic .

I plan to upgrade my 4,1 to 5,1 but i was wondering if it is possible after upgrading a Mac Pro 4,1 to 5,1 ( upgrading the EFI/ firmware / SMC) if ever i encounter compatibility problem to boot with older OSX or hardware , to revert the EFI/ firmware back to 4,1 ?

And in general , if it is possible ( easily ) to downgrade the EFI / Firmware / SMC of a Mac Pro , at least to revert it to the original one which was in the Mac when it was released ( or any in between if needed if there was some in between ) .

At least if i can still boot from 10.6.4 from both Mac pro , after upgrading their firmware , that is a good thing but i would like to be sure i can also downgrade to earlier / original EFI / Firmware if needed .

I just read the begining of your topic/ link but i am not sure i understand the difference between BootRom and EFI/ firmware , so i will have to check that .
My Mac pro 5,1 has an ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB, so i suppose it would not work with Mojave .

 

[tsialex]

If i remember well the OSX Snow Leopard installer DVD i used with my mac pro 2010 and 2009 was the 10.6.4 .
My mac pro 5,1 2010 came with Lion installed , i think it was 10.7.x that i updated to 10.7.5 and i had to buy the USB OSX Lion installer i still have but never had to use ( i am not sure it was given with the Mac pro 5,1 but i really wanted to have an installer , so i bought it if i remember well , as i think it was not given with the mac ) .
I don't remember with what OSX came my 2009 4,1 , i think it might have been Snow Leopard already installed but i remember i had to fight with Apple to get the DVD installer of Snow Leopard as my DVD is not the usual DVD with colors and apple logo on it but an after market DVD copy made by Apple , specified Not for Resale that was shipped to me by Apple a few days or weeks after i really bothered them to get it ( it took me several phone calls to get it !) .
if i remember well , when i bought my 4,1 in late 2009 or very early 2010 , it was the very begining when Apple started to sell their Mac Pro without DVD installer but there was not yet the USB installer sold for Lion in 2010 and the Snow Leopard DVD installer was not possible to buy anymore .

The common 10.6.3 DVD installer that almost every long time macOS user have, Apple sent it to every MobileMe user, don't work with a MP5,1 or a MP4,1>5,1, just with a MP4,1.

Anyway, there are ways to use the 10.6.3 DVD to install to a MP5,1, like a VM raw disk access, but it's easier to use a supported/later installer. If you have Apple Developer Center access you can download later installers of Snow Leopard desktop and server versions.
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It is interesting you speak about the Mac pro 4,1 to 5,1 as it was also a question i wanted to ask but i did not know if i could ask it here as well or open another topic .

I plan to upgrade my 4,1 to 5,1 but i was wondering if it is possible after upgrading a Mac Pro 4,1 to 5,1 ( upgrading the EFI/ firmware / SMC) if ever i encounter compatibility problem to boot with older OSX or hardware , to revert the EFI/ firmware back to 4,1 ?

And in general , if it is possible ( easily ) to downgrade the EFI / Firmware / SMC of a Mac Pro , at least to revert it to the original one which was in the Mac when it was released ( or any in between if needed if there was some in between ) .

Apple tools only upgrade a firmware, you can't even re-write the same one. The EFI version installed is checked, the firmware that you are trying to flash is validated and only if you are doing an upgrade, as in installing a newer version, the operation is allowed to continue.

Totally forget the possibility of downgrades, it's not possible to do with Apple tools available. While it's possible for a firmware engineer downgrade the firmware, it's not an operation accessible to an user. While I can do it with my tools and knowledge, you can't.

SMC of an early-2009 Mac Pro is not upgradeable at all*. Apple never released SMC upgrades for any Mac Pros newer than MP2,1, so, no SMC firmware available or the security key necessary to do the upgrade is available outside Apple labs.

*The only way to upgrade a Mac Pro early-2009 SMC is desoldering it from a mid-2010 or mid-2012 backplane and soldering to it to the early-2009. Since it's a 144-pin TQFP micro-controller, it's a very difficult operation without the necessary training and correct equipment and supplies.

At least if i can still boot from 10.6.4 from both Mac pro , after upgrading their firmware , that is a good thing but i would like to be sure i can also downgrade to earlier / original EFI / Firmware .

Yes, it's totally possible to boot releases of 10.6.4 later than 10F2521 with a MP5,1 or a MP4,1>5,1.

 

[Superlead]

Thanks very much for your answers.
I have two DVD installers of Snow Leopard .
One is in fact a pair of dvd that Apple shipped to me when i bothered them to get them.
They are labeled as :
Mac Pro Applications install DVD ( with Apple Logo )
Replacement DVD 2Z691-6716-A
Mac pro Mac OSX Install DVD
Replacement DVD 2Z691-6698-A
From what i remember , when i click on Get info about the DVD , it says version 10.6.4

And i also have a DVD that someone burnt for me and labeled 10.6.4 and if i remember well , when i click on Get info about the DVD , it also says version 10.6.4 .

I could start my Mac pro 5,1 recently with one of those DVD at least ( choosing the DVD between the other available system HD's when the Mac starts , pressing Alt key ) and launched the install process but stopped before it really start to install , as i just wanted to verify if it was
So i suppose i can install the OSX 10.6.4 that is on it .

Is it possible i got my 2009 4,1 Mac pro with Leopard ( or it might have come with a previous Mac pro or G5 i had ) ?
Cause i see if also have another Apple aftermarket DVD looking like the 2 others , labeled :
Mac OSX Leopard upgrade DVD
Replacement DVD Not for Resale
2Z691-6039-A

 

[tsialex]

Thanks very much for your answers.
I have two DVD installers of Snow Leopard .
One is in fact a pair of dvd that Apple shipped to me when i bothered them to get them.
They are labeled as :
Mac Pro Applications install DVD ( with Apple Logo )
Replacement DVD 2Z691-6716-A
Mac pro Mac OSX Install DVD
Replacement DVD 2Z691-6698-A
From what i remember , when i click on Get info about the DVD , it says version 10.6.4

And i also have a DVD that someone burnt for me and labeled 10.6.4 and if i remember well , when i click on Get info about the DVD , it also says version 10.6.4 .

I could start my Mac pro 5,1 recently with one of those DVD at least ( choosing the DVD between the other available system HD's when the Mac starts , pressing Alt key ) and launched the install process but stopped before it really start to install , as i just wanted to verify if it was working.

Is it possible i got my 2009 4,1 Mac pro with Leopard ( or it might have come with a previous Mac pro or G5 i had ) ?
Cause i see if also have another Apple aftermarket DVD looking like the 2 others , labeled :
Mac OSX Leopard upgrade DVD
Replacement DVD Not for Resale
2Z691-6039-A

I can't help you more than what I already wrote, I don't have any more info about these Snow Leopard DVD installers.

You have to investigate your DVDs and check if it works with your real MP5,1. If it works, then will work with the current 144.0.0.0.0 BootROM and will work with a early-2009 flashed with MP5,1 firmware, what we here on MacRumors call as a MP4,1>5,1.

Again, it's not the BootROM that is validated with the macOS installer, but the board-id and Model Identifier of the Mac. If your installer don't support the board-id and Model Identifier, the installer won't even boot and your display will show a grey screen with a big zero symbol, showing that the installer is not supported with this Mac.

 

[Superlead]

On this page bellow, the SMC version is not specified for 4,1 and 5,1

About EFI and SMC firmware updates for Intel-based Mac computers – Apple Support (UK)

This article lists firmware updates available as standalone installers for Intel-based Mac computers.

support.apple.com

My system infos gives me 1.39f11 for my Mac pro 5,1.

So , from what you say , it is not possible to downgrade or revert an EFI / firmware ( i found the EFI and BootRom is the same, i did not know) !
That is a problem if ever there is a compatibility problem after upgrading a 4,1 to 5,1 ( and i think i read somewhere there could be some if i remember well but i am not sure ) !
I had read a topic here where some posts were explaining to someone how to revert a Mac pro 4,1 upgraded to 5,1 , back to 4,1 , so i must not have understood something in that other topic , as you are saying it is not possible to downgrade EFI/ firmwares .
Here : https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...1-after-installing-macos-high-sierra.2138506/
( EDIT i read it again and it was you who were explaining it was difficult to someone but possible under some circumstances , although i had not understood it was so complicated and not possible for an average user like me ).
I had also read this one : https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/need-help-downgrading-macpro-5-1-4-1.2126594/

Do you know if the high end Pro Tools HDX system / card(s) ( here i don't speak about the Pro tools Native card that is much cheaper) or the earlier Pro Tools HD3 system / cards and even the much cheaper Pro Tools Native card , can still work perfectly without problem in a Mac Pro 4,1 upgraded to 5,1 ?

 

[Superlead]

Thanks very much for your help , you seem to really have much knowledge about all that !

Do you know if some people had some compatibility problems with some hardware or some softwares ( that they were using without problem before upgrading ) after upgrading their Mac pro firmware installing High Sierra ( or more recent OSX , like Mojave but i will read more of the Topic you posted me the link to ) or after upgrading from 4,1 to 5,1 ?

Obviously , i don't speak about using softwares that were compatible with older OSX but are not compatible with more recent OSX but about being able to still use them with the OSX they are compatible with .

 

[tsialex]

Thanks very much for your help , you seem to really have much knowledge about all that !

Do you know if some people had some compatibility problems with some hardware or some softwares ( that they were using without problem before upgrading ) after upgrading their Mac pro firmware installing High Sierra ( or more recent OSX , like Mojave but i will read more of the Topic you posted me the link to ) or after upgrading from 4,1 to 5,1 ?

Obviously , i don't speak about using softwares that were compatible with older OSX but are not compatible with more recent OSX but about being able to still use them with the OSX they are compatible with .

EFI firmware version don't affect past compability of apps.

After power on and self-test (POST time), the firmware transfer control to macOS and basically "disappear".

macOS releases is what cause compatibility issues with apps. If some app works fine with some macOS release, upgrading the EFI firmware won't change it's compatibility at all. For an EFI firmware to have any compability problems with an app, the app needs direct hardware access to the EFI/hardware. I know just one app that have it, Docker. Docker wouldn’t even run with a Mac Pro earlier than MP5,1 and requires recent EFI plus a Westmere Xeon - in reality Docker needs Apple Hypervisor and Apple Hypervisor needs Westmere Xeons and a recent EFI (post High Sierra). So, it’s a question of Docker requiring new features that only newer EFI releases have, not past compability that didn’t changed.

My suggestion to you is to use the search and find about the app that you want, you surelly will find info about most apps widely used.

 

[Macsonic]

Thanks very much for your help , you seem to really have much knowledge about all that !

Do you know if some people had some compatibility problems with some hardware or some softwares ( that they were using without problem before upgrading ) after upgrading their Mac pro firmware installing High Sierra ( or more recent OSX , like Mojave but i will read more of the Topic you posted me the link to ) or after upgrading from 4,1 to 5,1 ?

Obviously , i don't speak about using softwares that were compatible with older OSX but are not compatible with more recent OSX but about being able to still use them with the OSX they are compatible with .

I have Mountain Lion 10.8, Mavericks 10.9 installed in my 5,1 2010 cMac Pro with the BootROM 144.0.0.0.0. They all work just fine with no beachballs or freezings. I don’t have Snow Leopard anymore and could not comment on this. When I still have my 2009 4,1 cMac Pro, my Snow Leopard DVD installer, 10.6.0 will install and work in a 2009 cMac Pro. But this 10.6.0 installer does not work in a genuine 5.1 cMac Pro. I already tried that and does not boot completely. As tsialex mentioned, the Snow Leopard needs to be 10.6.4

I also used to have Yosemite 10.10 and this OS also worked fine with the BootROM 144.0.0.0.0

On another note, I transferred my High Sierra SSD HFS+ to my second 2010 cMac Pro with an old BootRom of MP51.007F.B00 and High Sierra works fine with no problem. Also transferred a HFS+ HD with Mojave 10.14.6 installed to my second cMac Pro with an old BootROM MP51.007F.B00 and also works fine. No beach balls or freezing. All softwares are working Okay on my end. To be clear, if you intend to install High Sierra on a genuine 2010 cMac Pro, you need to update the BootROM meant for High Sierra.

Edit Update: BootROM now updated to MP51.0089.B00

High Sierra running on BootROM MP51.007F.B00

MOJAVE in Old BootROM

Thanks

 

[tsialex]

I have Mountain Lion 10.8, Mavericks 10.9 installed in my 5,1 2010 cMac Pro with the BootROM 144.0.0.0.0. They all work just fine with no beachballs or freezings. I don’t have Snow Leopard anymore and could not comment on this. When I still have my 2009 4,1 cMac Pro, my Snow Leopard DVD installer, 10.6.0 will install and work in a 2009 cMac Pro. But this 10.6.0 installer does not work in a genuine 5.1 cMac Pro. I already tried that and does not boot completely. As tsialex mentioned, the Snow Leopard needs to be 10.6.4

I also used to have Yosemite 10.10 and this OS also worked fine with the BootROM 144.0.0.0.0

On another note, I transferred my High Sierra SSD HFS+ to my second 2010 cMac Pro with an old BootRom of MP51.007F.B00 and High Sierra works fine with no problem. Also transferred a HFS+ HD with Mojave 10.14.6 installed to my second cMac Pro with an old BootROM MP51.007F.B00 and also works fine. No beach balls or freezing. All softwares are working Okay on my end. To be clear, if you intend to install High Sierra on a genuine 2010 cMac Pro, you need to update the BootROM meant for High Sierra.

High Sierra running on BootROM MP51.007F.B00
View attachment 909884

MOJAVE in Old BootROM
View attachment 909885

Thanks

High Sierra and Mojave won’t work with older BootROMs unless you selected HFS+ install with High Sierra and hacked Mojave to work with HFS+.

Anyway, no one should use a superseded BootROM release. With anything earlier than MP51.0089.B00 your Mac is vulnerable to Spectre and Meltdown remote exploits, with anything earlier than 144.0.0.0.0 you can lose/corrupt data because earlier releases of the BootROM have several APFS bugs with APFSJumpStart EFI module.

 

[tsialex]

( i found the EFI and BootRom is the same, i did not know) !

EFI firmware and BootROM are not the same. BootROM is the whole, EFI firmware is just part of the whole.

A Mac Pro early-2009 to mid-2012 BootROM consists of, in order:

1. The EFI firmware
2. The NVRAM volume
3. The BootBlock
4. MLB sector

The EFI firmware is totally different from an early-2009 to mid-2010/mid-2012. The NVRAM volume is very similar, but the BootBlock and MLB sector are just somewhat similar.
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( EDIT i read it again and it was you who were explaining it was difficult to someone but possible under some circumstances , although i had not understood it was so complicated and not possible for an average user like me )

The OP there read info that I posted previously in other threads explaining the differences between the MLB sector from a early-2009 and a mid-2010/mid-2012 Mac Pro firmware and tried to do it by himself.

Even if you successfully correct the MLB sector and EFI firmware, your BootBlock and NVRAM will be incorrect.
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Do you know if the high end Pro Tools HDX system / card(s) ( here i don't speak about the Pro tools Native card that is much cheaper) or the earlier Pro Tools HD3 system / cards and even the much cheaper Pro Tools Native card , can still work perfectly without problem in a Mac Pro 4,1 upgraded to 5,1 ?

If it works with a mid-2010/mid-2012 Mac Pro, a real MP5,1, it will work with a MP4,1>5,1.

 

[Macsonic]

High Sierra and Mojave won’t work with older BootROMs unless you selected HFS+ install with High Sierra and hacked Mojave to work with HFS+.

Anyway, no one should use a superseded BootROM release. With anything earlier than MP51.0089.B00 your Mac is vulnerable to Spectre and Meltdown remote exploits, with anything earlier than 144.0.0.0.0 you can lose/corrupt data because earlier releases of the BootROM have several APFS bugs with APFSJumpStart EFI module.

Thanks for the inputs. I’ll be careful with security protocols moving forward. On the Mojave HFS+, using the original APFS Mojave HD, this was cloned to another separate HFS+ formatted HD.

Edit Update: BootROM updated to MP51.0089.B00

 

[Superlead]

Thanks for your answers !

For High Sierra, yes i saw it would not work with older EFI as i am asked to update it before i can install High Sierra .
Not sure if the bootRom is updated at the same time as the EFI/ firmware when installing HiGh Sierra , as you say they are different things ( with one part of the other ) but i will re read your previous posts , maybe i missed that somewhere .

From what i read recently , i understood High Sierra can be installed and used on an HFS + and it is not automaticaly reformated to APFS as it seems only SSD drive are automaticaly reformated to APFS unless we setup something to avoid that if i understood it well .
For the moment i did not go past the Firmware update as i did not do it yet , so i don't know what i will be asked after that to install HiGh Sierra but from what you seem to say i suppose i have to setup/ ask for HFS+ install, knowing i only have old mechanical HD but no SSD .

And yes, the Pro Tools cards i speak about are working with 2009 and 2010 Mac pro but i wanted to be sure i wouldn't have any compatibility problem with them after updating the firmware , knowing they are expensive systems with audio converters 24 bit /192 khz .

I don't know what are spectre and meltdown remote exploit but i suppose it is some kind of hacking , i will search about that .

If i don't use Mojave or APFS , i suppose i don't have to worry about APFS bugs ( although high sierra already works'with APFS ) .
Is it possible to update to 144.0.0.0 without installing Mojave if ever i want to use APFS with High Sierra without bug ?

So if i understand correctly , it is always better to update to the last available firmware And as for the high sierra firmware update, i suppose i won't have any compaibility problem with any firmware update , if i understood correctly what you said about the firware updates not having any compatibility consequences on any older OSX , apps nor hardware that was working with my Mac pro's.

 

[tsialex]

Thanks for your answers !

For High Sierra, yes i saw it would not work with older EFI ( not sure if the bootRom is updated at the same time as the EFI/ firmware when installing HiGh Sierra but i will re read your previous posts , maybe i missed that somewhere ) as i am asked to update it before i can install High Sierra .
From what i read recently , i understood High Sierra can be installed and used on an HFS + and it is not automaticaly reformated to APFS as it seems only SSD drive are automaticaly reformated to APFS unless we setup something to avoid that if i understood it well .
For the moment i did not go past the Firmware update as i did not do it yet , so i don't know what i will be asked after that to install HiGh Sierra but from what you seem to say i suppose i have to setup/ ask for HFS+ install, knowing i only have old mechanical HD but no SSD .

And yes, the Pro Tools cards i speak about are working with 2009 and 2010 Mac pro but i wanted to be sure i wouldn't have any compatibility problem with them after updating the firmware , knowing they are expensive systems with audio converters 24 bit /192 khz .

High Sierra supports HFS+ for magnetic drives, only SSDs are converted to APFS, while Mojave converts both to APFS.
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If you are so worried about past compatibility and your livelihood depends on it, you can always contract someone capable to dump your BootROM and create the intermediate files that can generate any past released MP4,1 or MP5,1 firmware.

 

[Superlead]

High Sierra supports HFS+ for magnetic drives, only SSDs are converted to APFS, while Mojave converts both to APFS.
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If you are so worried about past compatibility and your livelihood depends on it, you can always contract someone capable to dump your BootROM and create the intermediate files that can generate any past released MP4,1 or MP5,1 firmware.

Unfortunately i don't know anybody who is able to " dump your BootROM and create the intermediate files that can generate any past released MP4,1 or MP5,1 firmware." !
You seem to be the only person i met on internet that seem to know about all that ! Lol
From what you seemed to say , it is not something available to an average user ( and some special programer equipment is needed ) and all the people i know working with Mac pro are more or less average users and most know even less about Mac 's than i do, knowing i work with them since the early 90's ! Lol
I knew quite well how to deal with OSX problems and hardware compatibility for several years when i was much into all that everyday ( Mac were all power Mac back then ) , installing big audio recording systems like pro tools in recording studios but it's been several years i have not been into that everyday (and i forgot some things) , many systems have been released in between and even if i installed some on my mac pro's , downloaded the others and worked with audio softwares , i never knew how to program or do things like you speak about .

That said , you told me updating my firnware will not make any compatibility problem with any of my older OSX nor with the softwares and hardwares i have been using in my mac pro's for several years, so if you are totaly sure about that 100% , i should not need to ask anyone to " dump your BootROM and create the intermediate files that can generate any past released MP4,1 or MP5,1 firmware."

 

[Superlead]

Maybe i got something wrong !
Don't worry , if it bothers you to answer that type of things bellow, i will search the internet to understand all that a bit better ( i will do that just after i finish that post ).

Sorry , as i said , most of my Mac knowledge comes from the time where Mac were all Power Mac / motorola processors and at that time i had never head about EFI !
I knew just a bit about PC computers / windows and had understood the BIOS as some sort of permanent small basic system on the motherboard of a PC computer , that makes the link between Hardwares and operating system , different from the OS ( windows) that was installed on the HD but a bit like what is burnt on an Eprom in synthesizers ( correct me if i am wrong ).
So recently i searched for some infos about the more recent OSX and i read on a Mac forum that the EFI on intel based Mac pro , is the equivalent of a firmware in the Power PC Mac ( that is why i wrote EFI / Firmware in my posts ).

That said , someone told me on another forum ( about audio recording/ music ) , that i was not using EFI correctly, so when i went on internet to search more infos about it , i saw on Wikipedia that EFI is also used in Mac intel based as a firmware based replacement , for the BIOS that is on the PC windows computers .
I suppose i have to search for more infos to refresh my memory , as i might mix up different infos/ name between Power PC Mac, Mac intel and regular PC ( using windows OS) computers ! Lol

Wiki :
"The Apple–Intel architecture, or Mactel, is an unofficial name used for Apple Macintosh personal computers developed and manufactured by Apple Inc. that use Intel x86 processors,[not verified in body] rather than the PowerPC and Motorola 68000 ("68k") series processors used in their predecessors. With the change in architecture, a change in firmware became necessary; Apple selected the Intel-designed Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) as its comparable component to the Open Firmware used on its PowerPC architectures,[not verified in body] and as the firmware-based replacement for the PC BIOS from Intel."

So if i understood it well, the EFI replaces both the regular Power PC Mac firmware and the BIOS of PC computers ( i mean windows based computers ) .
Knowing firmware name on intel based Mac is still used , like when installing High Sierra it asks for updating firmware and not updating EFI.

Can we say the firmware in a Power PC Mac was more or less the equivalent of BIOS in a PC computer ( although i read somewhere there is was no BIOS in Power PC Mac , cause as a matter of fact there is no such thing named BIOS in those Mac but that could also mean there is no equivalent ! Lol ) ?


As far as i know , the BIOS on a PC is accessible when typing programming like sentences / lines of command , before the windows operating system is started but i am not sure it was possible to access such deep level on a Power PC Mac as far as i remember , although i know it surely became available with Mac intel based Mac Pro, with the terminal although you can use the terminal inside Mac OSX without going back to boot level ( correct me if am wrong in some things ).

 

[tsialex]

Unfortunately i don't know anybody who is able to " dump your BootROM and create the intermediate files that can generate any past released MP4,1 or MP5,1 firmware." !
You seem to be the only person i met on internet that seem to know about all that ! Lol
From what you seemed to say , it is not something available to an average user ( and some special programer equipment is needed ) and all the people i know working with Mac pro are more or less average users and most know even less about Mac 's than i do, knowing i work with them since the early 90's ! Lol
I knew quite well how to deal with OSX problems and hardware compatibility for several years when i was much into all that everyday ( Mac were all power Mac back then ) , installing big audio recording systems like pro tools in recording studios but it's been several years i have not been into that everyday (and i forgot some things) , many systems have been released in between and even if i installed some on my mac pro's , downloaded the others and worked with audio softwares , i never knew how to program or do things like you speak about .

That said , you told me updating my firnware will not make any compatibility problem with any of my older OSX nor with the softwares and hardwares i have been using in my mac pro's for several years, so if you are totaly sure about that 100% , i should not need to ask anyone to " dump your BootROM and create the intermediate files that can generate any past released MP4,1 or MP5,1 firmware."

Understand what I wrote as: if you have doubts about the upgrade and your livelihood depends on it, pay someone to have the option to revert to the current status if you ever need.
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Maybe i got something wrong !
Don't worry , if it bothers you to answer that type of things bellow, i will search the internet to understand all that a bit better ( i will do that just after i finish that post ).

Sorry , as i said , most of my Mac knowledge comes from the time where Mac were all Power Mac / motorola processors and at that time i had never head about EFI !
I knew just a bit about PC computers / windows and had understood the BIOS as some sort of permanent small basic system on the motherboard of a PC computer , that makes the link between Hardwares and operating system , different from the OS ( windows) that was installed on the HD but a bit like what is burnt on an Eprom in synthesizers ( correct me if i am wrong ).
So recently i searched for some infos about the more recent OSX and i read on a Mac forum that the EFI on intel based Mac pro , is the equivalent of a firmware in the Power PC Mac ( that is why i wrote EFI / Firmware in my posts ).

That said , someone told me on another forum ( about audio recording/ music ) , that i was not using EFI correctly, so when i went on internet to search more infos about it , i saw on Wikipedia that EFI is also used in Mac intel based as a firmware based replacement , for the BIOS that is on the PC windows computers .
I suppose i have to search for more infos to refresh my memory , as i might mix up different infos/ name between Power PC Mac, Mac intel and regular PC ( using windows OS) computers ! Lol

Wiki :
"The Apple–Intel architecture, or Mactel, is an unofficial name used for Apple Macintosh personal computers developed and manufactured by Apple Inc. that use Intel x86 processors,[not verified in body] rather than the PowerPC and Motorola 68000 ("68k") series processors used in their predecessors. With the change in architecture, a change in firmware became necessary; Apple selected the Intel-designed Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) as its comparable component to the Open Firmware used on its PowerPC architectures,[not verified in body] and as the firmware-based replacement for the PC BIOS from Intel."

So if i understood it well, the EFI replaces both the regular Power PC Mac firmware and the BIOS of PC computers ( i mean windows based computers ) .
Knowing firmware name on intel based Mac is still used , like when installing High Sierra it asks for updating firmware and not updating EFI.

Can we say the firmware in a Power PC Mac was more or less the equivalent of BIOS in a PC computer ( although i read somewhere there is was no BIOS in Power PC Mac , cause as a matter of fact there is no such thing named BIOS in those Mac but that could also mean there is no equivalent ! Lol ) ?


As far as i know , the BIOS on a PC is accessible when typing programming like sentences / lines of command , before the windows operating system is started but i am not sure it was possible to access such deep level on a Power PC Mac as far as i remember , although i know it surely became available with Mac intel based Mac Pro, with the terminal although you can use the terminal inside Mac OSX without going back to boot level ( correct me if am wrong in some things ).

EFI firmware is the substitute of OpenFirmware of PowerPCs, but like with everything in the last 20 years, it's much more complex than it.

 

[Superlead]

Understand what I wrote as: if you have doubts about the upgrade and your livelihood depends on it, pay someone to have the option to revert to the current status if you ever need.
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When you say that , does this mean you are not 100% sure it would not have any consequence on OSX or hardware compatibility to update the firmware with High Sierra installation or updating 4,1 to 5,1 ?

You seemed to be totaly sure it would not have any consequence in your previous posts but when i read that , i understand it as if there could be some some consequences , even if there is only a small % of risk it might happen .

Is any Apple certified shop servicing Mac hardware or at least servicing Mac computers , able to revert a firmware back to a previous one like you explained ?

 

[Macsonic]

When you say that , does this mean you are not 100% sure it would not have any consequence on OSX or hardware compatibility to update the firmware with High Sierra installation or updating 4,1 to 5,1 ?

You seemed to be totaly sure it would not have any consequence in your previous posts but when i read that , i understand it as if there could be some some consequences , even if there is only a small % of risk it might happen .

Is any Apple certified shop servicing Mac hardware or at least servicing Mac computers , able to revert a firmware back to a previous one like you explained ?

If I may clarify, I know your question is addressed to tsialex. From your first post, you were concerned if Snow Leopard 10.6.8 will still run and work fine after updating the BootRom to MP51.0089.B00 or to 144.0.0.0.0 BootROM. Though you are also concerned if your existing apps will still work Okay after you have installed High Sierra?

Your question if the firmware can be reverted back to the old firmware, you are referring to the BootROM firmware? Not the 4,1 to 5,1 firmware. On reverting back the BootROM firmware, it may not be possible unless I’m wrong. A Mac technician told me the BootROM firmware cannot be reverted. Note that I’m getting this as a “second hand info”. If the BootROM can be reverted, tsialex will mention this in his WikiPost, MP5,1: What you have to do to upgrade to Mojave (BootROM upgrade instructions thread)

 

[tsialex]

When you say that , does this mean you are not 100% sure it would not have any consequence on OSX or hardware compatibility to update the firmware with High Sierra installation or updating 4,1 to 5,1 ?

You seemed to be totaly sure it would not have any consequence in your previous posts but when i read that , i understand it as if there could be some some consequences , even if there is only a small % of risk it might happen .

Is any Apple certified shop servicing Mac hardware or at least servicing Mac computers , able to revert a firmware back to a previous one like you explained ?

I'll explain again my point: I don't act on things without means of reversing or having a safe exit, if ever needed. While past compatibility is not changed with new firmwares, you can't reverse it with Apple tools and it's a one way only.

You are seeing just the past compatibility side of the problem. Upgranding a firmware involves risks, you are upgrading the Mac Pro firmware stored on a SPI flash memory heavily used (NVRAM is inside the same SPI flash thats stores the BootROM for all Mac Pros newer than MP3,1) that is already ~11 years old for an early-2009 and ~10 years old for a mid-2010. It's not uncommon for it to fail around this point in time with lots of people suffering with this now, see how much threads/posts about bricks exist here on MacRumors.

Mac Pro backplane have SPI flashes rated for just 100.000 write/erase cycles. No one keeps your main data on a daily used HDD eleven years old without having a backup, use it as metaphor that applies to the SPI flash memory that stores the BootROM. Even if you do nothing at all, the backplane SPI flash memory it's on it's last breaths for any daily used Mac Pro.

All Mac Pros before mid-2012 are not supported anymore, obsolete, and it's not serviceable by Apple. Any problems you'll have to find a third party that still repair it or buy an used replacement backplane on eBay and replace it your self.

No one will revert the firmware, not Apple, not a third party repair business.

 

[Superlead]

I'll explain again my point: I don't act on things without means of reversing or having a safe exit, if ever needed. While past compatibility is not changed with new firmwares, you can't reverse it with Apple tools and it's a one way only.

You are seeing just the past compatibility side of the problem. Upgranding a firmware involves risks, you are upgrading the Mac Pro firmware stored on a SPI flash memory heavily used (NVRAM is inside the same SPI flash thats stores the BootROM for all Mac Pros newer than MP3,1) that is already ~11 years old for an early-2009 and ~10 years old for a mid-2010. It's not uncommon for it to fail around this point in time with lots of people suffering with this now, see how much threads/posts about bricks exist here on MacRumors.

Mac Pro backplane have SPI flashes rated for just 100.000 write/erase cycles. No one keeps your main data on a daily used HDD eleven years old without having a backup, use it as metaphor that applies to the SPI flash memory that stores the BootROM. Even if you do nothing at all, the backplane SPI flash memory it's on it's last breaths for any daily used Mac Pro.

All Mac Pros before mid-2012 are not supported anymore, obsolete, and it's not serviceable by Apple. Any problems you'll have to find a third party that still repair it or buy an used replacement backplane on eBay and replace it your self.

No one will revert the firmware, not Apple, not a third party repair business.

Thanks for your answer , these are very interesting informations , which lead me to a few more questions ( sorry ) .

If i understand you çorrectly , that SPI flash memory is replaceable by buying a replacement backplane ( i don't know what is a backplane but will search for the info ) , to be able to keep using those Mac for several more years .

Is it possible to buy that backplane New old stock or only some used ones ?

Can i easily replace that backplane myself ?

As a matter of fact , i did not use my Mac Pro that much for those 10 years ( had several problems, health problems , problem to find a place for my recording studio due to real estate prices increase ...etc ), does this mean i might have some SPI flash memory that could still be in decent condition ( as you say for a daily used Mac'Pro ) for i use them for several more years ( although i am not sure what you meant by " even if you do nothing " ) ?

What are the different actions which are part of these 100 000 write / erase ?
If i understand correctly , it is Firmware update but also each times the PRam / NvRam ( i thought only newer Mac pro post 2012 had NvRam and older ones PRam ) is erased / written , what is each time the Mac is powered on and used .
Anything else ?
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I found a very interesting website which explains how to restore the firmware on an Intel based Mac with the Mac firmware restoration file burnt on a CD or DVD , if something goes wrong while updating a firmware for example but maybe it also works when nothing goes wrong and the firmware was updated ( although i am not sure about that as nothing is said about it and also based on what you wrote above saying it is not possible to downgrade a firmware ).

How to Restore a Mac to an Earlier Date

Restoring a Mac from a backup can help you recover files or, if your Mac is acting up, get your Mac back into a state of working order. Here's how.

www.lifewire.com

 

[tsialex]

Thanks for your answer , these are very interesting informations , which lead me to a few more questions ( sorry ) .

If i understand you çorrectly , that SPI flash memory is replaceable by buying a replacement backplane ( i don't know what is a backplane but will search for the info ) , to be able to keep using those Mac for several more years .

Is it possible to buy that backplane New old stock or only some used ones ?

Can i easily replace that backplane myself ?

Download the Mac Pro Technician Guide and see if replacing the backplane is something you can do yourself.

Apple still support Mac Pro mid-2012 in countries that follow the vintage list - I did a quote at the end of last year, but every country has different prices - a new replacement backplane from Apple is around $800+ here, more than what your Mac Pro is worth.

You can use a mid-2012 backplane with a mid-2010, but not with an early-2009.

As a matter of fact , i did not use my Mac Pro that much for those 10 years ( had several problems, health problems , problem to find a place for my recording studio due to real estate prices increase ...etc ), does this mean i might have some SPI flash memory that could still be in decent condition ( as you say for a daily used Mac'Pro ) for i use them for several more years ( although i am not sure what you meant by " even if you do nothing " ) ?

If you didn't used your Mac Pro for several years, you will have some SPI flash memory life yet.

What are the different actions which are part of these 100 000 write / erase ?
If i understand correctly , it is Firmware update but also each times the PRam / NvRam ( i thought only newer Mac pro post 2012 had NvRam and older ones PRam ) is erased / written , what is each time the Mac is powered on and used .
Anything else ?

Every time your Mac is powered on, you have read access to the NVRAM and every time some variable stored there is updated you have cycles of erase/write.

Every time you:

• run AHT or ASD,
• have a Kernel Panic,
• install macOS,
• add or remove memory,
• change a boot disk,
• boot another macOS version,
• boot BootCamp,
• boot Recovery,
• change the default sound volume,
• change the default language,
• change the keyboard language,
• change Bluetooth parameters,
• change wireless network credentials,
• add a wireless network credential to your iCloud account from your iPhone/iPad/MacBook,
• change anything with NVIDIA web drivers,

I probably forgot a lot more. NVRAM stores a lot of different parameters.

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I found a very interesting website which explains how to restore the firmware on an Intel based Mac with the Mac firmware restoration file burnt on a CD or DVD , if something goes wrong while updating a firmware for example but maybe it also works when nothing goes wrong and the firmware was updated ( although i am not sure about that as nothing is said about it and also based on what you wrote above saying it is not possible to downgrade a firmware ).

How to Restore a Mac to an Earlier Date

Restoring a Mac from a backup can help you recover files or, if your Mac is acting up, get your Mac back into a state of working order. Here's how.

www.lifewire.com

If the Mac Pro Firmware Recuperation CD worked fine, why so much bricks? If it worked fine, why Apple stopped issuing it after around 2012/2013 time frame? Why newer Macs don't have it? Did you ever asked these questions?

It's a very nice idea on paper that Intel implemented, but never worked in real life and was abandoned. Only works with some success for the same firmware version that you have, at the time you are updating the firmware and have a problem with the firmware update.

Apple stopped issuing updates with the MP51.007F.B03 release, there are 12 new EFI firmware updates past it.

No one ever restored a brick to life with the Mac Pro Firmware Recuperation CD.

 

[Superlead]

Thanks for those explanations .

About newer Mac not using restoration CD , it is also because they don't have a CD drive.
The website i put the link above says the newer Mac also use a restoration'process but without CD :

"When Apple removed the CD/DVD drive from Mac models, the company realized that an alternate method of recovering from a corrupt firmware installation was needed. Apple could have provided the firmware restore system on a bootable USB flash drive, but instead, it rolled the firmware recovery process into the Recovery HD hidden partition that is included with all newer Macs."

That said , i don't know if the restoration'process works or not , you seem to say it does not .