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Admiralbison

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 23, 2021
130
131
Has it been the App Store itself that was the reason why AAA games just never had a significant presence on the iPad all these years?

*warning a little long, but I do make my point at the end of this

1) Popularity
Popular arguments goes "mobile games are popular with mobile users", but then that would be a given because they are just there on mobile and in the early days that's what the devices could only handle. So naturally with millions of mobile users they're going to get it...because it's just there.

So surely even if you go by laws of averages, the total million of iPad users, surely there would be significant number of that demographic would demand and purchase AAA games if they were available on the iPad, PC/Console gamers do get mobile devices (smartphones most obviously)
but still AAA games at most just come out in dribbles and drabs with the once on a blue moon big modern AAA game.


2) iPad specs
I really don't think there is an argument anymore that iPads don't have the grunt to run many "modern" AAA games, at least not iPads 2018 and above.
The iPad, especially the M series iPads have the specs to run many full on AAA games up to as far as Xbox/PS4 era games.
E.g. Divinity 2.
2018 iPad Pro "Has the Xbox One S gaming power" (Apple's actual marketing ignoring the elephant in the room with obvious lack of Xbox One S games)
Aside from any limitations imposed by Apple when using the an iPads resources - i.e. memory

3) Cost and earnings issue -
AAA Devs/studios find it harder to recoup costs or turn significant enough profits to be worthwhile putting their games on the App Store.
Now I am not a developer and don't know the Economic ins and outs on iOS, but I do see going by articles, stats and other information that

Free 2 play designed games (not just F2P model) such as PUBG, Fortnight - which to me looks cheap in design and gameplay (my opinion) rake in billions through micro transactions.

It's "Free" so no barrier of entry in combination to what makes/made it stand out from the literal thousands of other F2P games was its curating placement in the App Store.

There are top ten "free" category and top ten paid category.
but really, top ten paid category has Minecraft and the mostly the rest are $5 paid games, very old yesteryear AAA and not necessarily AA-AAA games that wow consoles/pc gamers in recent memory.


which leads into

4) perception and self feeding loop

F2P and general mobile games are displayed promininently which is fine for the App Store and many paid games look almost indistinguishable from general mobile F2P games when browsing the App Store without prior knowledge and the obvious upfront price tag.

Which leads the perception, and rightfully so, that the App Store is dominated by popular F2P mobile games and that AAA games just doesn't fit for mobiles.


*****MY POINT***** (thank you for reading this far)

Apple's App Store is not going to change (unless anti-trust measures and pressure does that in regards to Apple's monopolistic App Store practices) to make developing AAA games for mobile more appealing...



BUT what if other App stores were allowed to exist on mobile?


For example Steam (I prefer GOG and purchasing/installing directly from websites)

If gamers saw a Steam store on mobile that allowed you to purchase and install directly like they do Apple's App Store, I believe that would change mobile gaming completely.

Think about it, you have a store that concentrates on actual AA-AAA and popular indie games that you want, easily and available to purchase and download (First the AAA games have to be developed for more mobile of course).
When you go to the Steam Store you go there knowingly looking for these types of games.

Steam is obviously curated for AA-AAA and indie games, so you don't need to have to browse through thousands of mobile games if that isn't your thing.

Steam would offer an alternative store for AA-AAA devs instead of Apple's App Store (This is in consideration to Epic vs Apple and their percentage charges/policies)
AA-AAA game dev's games will obviously have more "visibility" on Steam compared to Apple's App Store...because it's Steam and because gamers on Steam on iOS will be the same as gamers on Steam on PC/Macs


Users will have more freedom of choice and devs/studios will have more options instead of being limited to one monopoly App Store run by Apple.
 
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Pakaku

macrumors 68040
Aug 29, 2009
3,273
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Sure, if other stores were allowed on iOS, which Apple will always be completely against since they wouldn't get the same revenue that their App Store would. Users having choice is only nice for us, not for Apple.
 

cupcakes2000

macrumors 601
Apr 13, 2010
4,037
5,429
No it’s got nothing to do with it. Gamers are snobs that believe that ‘proper’ gaming can only be achieved with a ‘proper’ gaming rig, PC’s and certain consoles (though only the certain few deemed respectable by them). Releasing AAA titles on the iPad at the same rate as in the gaming world would require a shift of the ‘serious gamers’ (sic) mentality to make it a viable option for developers to put the costly resources into it.
 
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UBS28

macrumors 68030
Oct 2, 2012
2,893
2,340
It is simply the fault of consumers. Mobile games make more money than AAA games.

So why should a AAA developer create a AAA game for iOS when he can do a low quality effort mobile game and make billions this way with microtransactions.
 
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ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,638
Indonesia
AAA games primary audience are hardcore gamers, and hardcore gamers are on what platform? PC or the consoles. Obviously developing for those already cost a lot of money. iOS as a gaming platform is not a priority for developers of AAA games. They would only consider it once the other platforms are completed.

It doesn't matter if there are 3rd party app stores on iOS. Developers would prioritise supporting the platforms that hardcore gamers use, which is PC and consoles (also the fact that Sony and Microsoft both actively lobby AAA game developers).
 

AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
7,401
3,378
Massachusetts
Sure, if other stores were allowed on iOS, which Apple will always be completely against since they wouldn't get the same revenue that their App Store would. Users having choice is only nice for us, not for Apple.
Are you suggesting that what Apple is currently doing with their locked ecosystem is bad for consumer choice?
 

Slartibart

macrumors 68040
Aug 19, 2020
3,145
2,819
My educated guess is that’s simply the price the majority people is willing to pay.

Working hypothesis: the (initial) cost for an app must be perceived as “unexpensive” compared to laptop/desktop- or console versions.

And they are.
 

littlepud

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2012
470
332
My educated guess is that’s simply the price the majority people is willing to pay.

Working hypothesis: the (initial) cost for an app must be perceived as “unexpensive” compared to laptop/desktop- or console versions.

And they are.
I would rather the exact opposite: I’d be completely happy paying $60-$80 as a one-time few for an app (or game) and not have recurring subscription fees.
 

Slartibart

macrumors 68040
Aug 19, 2020
3,145
2,819
I would rather the exact opposite: I’d be completely happy paying $60-$80 as a one-time few for an app (or game) and not have recurring subscription fees.
This is more like anecdotical reference ? We do not know exactly how Apple orders their top game charts , but: go to the App Store. Look on the top chart for commercial games. How many games in the top 100 do you find which cost more then 10 € or $? If I reduce the requirement to 7.99€ in my country I find:

1. Minecraft 7.99€
.
.
.
13. GTA: San Andreas 7.99€
14. Football Manager 2021 mobile 9.99€
.
17 Slay the Spire 10.99€
.
.
.
21. Northgard 9.99€
.
23. Tropico 12.99€
.
.
.
30. Divinity - Original Sin 2 27.99€
.
.

So I still think that the price mentality of the audience skews towards low price - I do not know how Apple calculates this chart: over what time window, wether it’s number of downloads, total sum of money paid, et cetera.
Taking its hardware requirements and price I am actually surprised how high Divinity is placed - which makes me think that it’s not just 5he download numbers represented here.
 

Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
Has it been the App Store itself that was the reason why AAA games just never had a significant presence on the iPad all these years?

*warning a little long, but I do make my point at the end of this

1) Popularity
Popular arguments goes "mobile games are popular with mobile users", but then that would be a given because they are just there on mobile and in the early days that's what the devices could only handle. So naturally with millions of mobile users they're going to get it...because it's just there.

So surely even if you go by laws of averages, the total million of iPad users, surely there would be significant number of that demographic would demand and purchase AAA games if they were available on the iPad, PC/Console gamers do get mobile devices (smartphones most obviously)
but still AAA games at most just come out in dribbles and drabs with the once on a blue moon big modern AAA game.


2) iPad specs
I really don't think there is an argument anymore that iPads don't have the grunt to run many "modern" AAA games, at least not iPads 2018 and above.
The iPad, especially the M series iPads have the specs to run many full on AAA games up to as far as Xbox/PS4 era games.
E.g. Divinity 2.
2018 iPad Pro "Has the Xbox One S gaming power" (Apple's actual marketing ignoring the elephant in the room with obvious lack of Xbox One S games)
Aside from any limitations imposed by Apple when using the an iPads resources - i.e. memory

3) Cost and earnings issue -
AAA Devs/studios find it harder to recoup costs or turn significant enough profits to be worthwhile putting their games on the App Store.
Now I am not a developer and don't know the Economic ins and outs on iOS, but I do see going by articles, stats and other information that

Free 2 play designed games (not just F2P model) such as PUBG, Fortnight - which to me looks cheap in design and gameplay (my opinion) rake in billions through micro transactions.

It's "Free" so no barrier of entry in combination to what makes/made it stand out from the literal thousands of other F2P games was its curating placement in the App Store.

There are top ten "free" category and top ten paid category.
but really, top ten paid category has Minecraft and the mostly the rest are $5 paid games, very old yesteryear AAA and not necessarily AA-AAA games that wow consoles/pc gamers in recent memory.


which leads into

4) perception and self feeding loop

F2P and general mobile games are displayed promininently which is fine for the App Store and many paid games look almost indistinguishable from general mobile F2P games when browsing the App Store without prior knowledge and the obvious upfront price tag.

Which leads the perception, and rightfully so, that the App Store is dominated by popular F2P mobile games and that AAA games just doesn't fit for mobiles.


*****MY POINT***** (thank you for reading this far)

Apple's App Store is not going to change (unless anti-trust measures and pressure does that in regards to Apple's monopolistic App Store practices) to make developing AAA games for mobile more appealing...



BUT what if other App stores were allowed to exist on mobile?


For example Steam (I prefer GOG and purchasing/installing directly from websites)

If gamers saw a Steam store on mobile that allowed you to purchase and install directly like they do Apple's App Store, I believe that would change mobile gaming completely.

Think about it, you have a store that concentrates on actual AA-AAA and popular indie games that you want, easily and available to purchase and download (First the AAA games have to be developed for more mobile of course).
When you go to the Steam Store you go there knowingly looking for these types of games.

Steam is obviously curated for AA-AAA and indie games, so you don't need to have to browse through thousands of mobile games if that isn't your thing.

Steam would offer an alternative store for AA-AAA devs instead of Apple's App Store (This is in consideration to Epic vs Apple and their percentage charges/policies)
AA-AAA game dev's games will obviously have more "visibility" on Steam compared to Apple's App Store...because it's Steam and because gamers on Steam on iOS will be the same as gamers on Steam on PC/Macs


Users will have more freedom of choice and devs/studios will have more options instead of being limited to one monopoly App Store run by Apple.

I do not game, but what is AAA in this context?
 

AndyMacAndMic

macrumors 65816
May 25, 2017
1,116
1,679
Western Europe
Ok, thanks. Like Tetris from Microsoft, Chess from Apple and World of Warcreaft from, don't recall relly.
So it's the size of the company and the finances behind that makes it a AAA or even AAAA game, not the game it self?

Well it is about the same a big budget Hollywood blockbuster film versus a small production.
Maybe you are not a gamer, but it is interesting to know that the video game industry has a much bigger revenue than the film industry nowadays.
 

Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
Well it is about the same a big budget Hollywood blockbuster film versus a small production.
Maybe you are not a gamer, but it is interesting to know that the video game industry has a much bigger revenue than the film industry nowadays.

I didn't get the AAA or AAAA-title even after reading the wiki-page thou.
So it's not about the game, but regarding the company? So if Apple release a game, it's automatically a AAA or AAAA-game?
 

AndyMacAndMic

macrumors 65816
May 25, 2017
1,116
1,679
Western Europe
No it is not about the company. It is about the budget for the game. An AAA game has a big budget, lots of people working on it, maybe a real orchestra for background music etc. etc.

Tetris, for instance had a small budget and was made by one person. Tetris is not an AAA game, but a casual game.

If Apple makes Tetris it is not an AAA game but a casual game If Apple makes a computer game with a budget of 50 million dollars with a big team, a big production value and a lot of advertising, than it is an AAA game.

As I already explained: it is like movies. There are A movies and there are B movies.
 
Last edited:

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
My educated guess is that’s simply the price the majority people is willing to pay.

Working hypothesis: the (initial) cost for an app must be perceived as “unexpensive” compared to laptop/desktop- or console versions.

And they are.
This is exactly why the Mac App Store flounders. The “itunesification” of app pricing from iOS has had a detrimental effect on what consumers perceive the cost of software development to be on the first place.

Just 15 years ago you could walk into a store and spend $300 on a single software purchase. Today it’s hard to get people not to balk at even spending $30 on great software. This mentality change is also contributing to the drive towards subscriptions and micro transactions. The cost of actually developing software hasn’t dropped all that much (as it shouldn’t, software devs should be high earners in a world driven by software) but consumers pricing expectations have dropped dramatically.

Gaming in particular is a special microcosm of this trend, as “real” gamers (as they often tend to self identify as) WILL spend the money…but also have a gatekeeper mentality of what “real” gaming is and overwhelmingly suggest it can only be done on a console or computer. Meanwhile the much bigger market of casual gamers is booming…but they are extremely price sensitive and essentially have to be captured with a F2P model or they won’t spend a dime (generally speaking).

Gaming is just a really unique market ?‍♂️
 

Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
No it is not about the company. It is about the budget for the game. An AAA game has a big budget, lots of people working on it, maybe a real orchestra for background music etc. etc.

Tetris, for instance had a small budget and was made by one person. Tetris is not an AAA game, but a casual game.

If Apple makes Tetris it is not an AAA game but a casual game If Apple makes a computer game with a budget of 50 million dollars with a big team, a big production valua and a lot of advertising, than it is an AAA game.

As I already explained: it is like movies. There are A movies and there are B movies.

I understand now. Thank you for the clarification.
So is World of warcraft a AAA or AAAA-game? Don't really understand the limit/difference.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
I understand now. Thank you for the clarification.
So is World of warcraft a AAA or AAAA-game? Don't really understand the limit/difference.
Not being a gamer myself I’ve truly never understood the way they’re described either.
 

trip1ex

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2008
3,233
1,901
market hasn't been proven yet.

i think generally speaking anyone that wanted to play a PS4 game bought a PS4 by now.
 

minimo3

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2010
830
1,027
AAA games cost at least $10MM to develop and another $10MM to market. PlayStation, Xbox, PC gamers willingly shell out $60 for the game. Meanwhile iPad gamers don’t even want to pay $0.99. Apple conditioned App Store users to the $0.99 price and that totally destroyed the ability for game publishers to sell more expensive titles so they simply focus on platforms where there’s a higher chance to make money.
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,638
Indonesia
This is exactly why the Mac App Store flounders. The “itunesification” of app pricing from iOS has had a detrimental effect on what consumers perceive the cost of software development to be on the first place.

Just 15 years ago you could walk into a store and spend $300 on a single software purchase. Today it’s hard to get people not to balk at even spending $30 on great software. This mentality change is also contributing to the drive towards subscriptions and micro transactions. The cost of actually developing software hasn’t dropped all that much (as it shouldn’t, software devs should be high earners in a world driven by software) but consumers pricing expectations have dropped dramatically.

Gaming in particular is a special microcosm of this trend, as “real” gamers (as they often tend to self identify as) WILL spend the money…but also have a gatekeeper mentality of what “real” gaming is and overwhelmingly suggest it can only be done on a console or computer. Meanwhile the much bigger market of casual gamers is booming…but they are extremely price sensitive and essentially have to be captured with a F2P model or they won’t spend a dime (generally speaking).

Gaming is just a really unique market ?‍♂️
Good point.

But remember back then, before the App Store, piracy is extremely high (especially games). So you can charge $300 of your software, but maybe only one guy bought it and majority of other people will be pirating it. In my country, we have stores in malls selling pirated PC games. Meanwhile the App Store ecosystem has pushed piracy down that even a $7 software will be selling close to 100% of people who use it. For some developers, the latter is more lucrative.
 

Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
AAA games cost at least $10MM to develop and another $10MM to market. PlayStation, Xbox, PC gamers willingly shell out $60 for the game. Meanwhile iPad gamers don’t even want to pay $0.99. Apple conditioned App Store users to the $0.99 price and that totally destroyed the ability for game publishers to sell more expensive titles so they simply focus on platforms where there’s a higher chance to make money.
Ok. Then what do a AAAA-game have for budget? What are the different levels?
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
Good point.

But remember back then, before the App Store, piracy is extremely high (especially games). So you can charge $300 of your software, but maybe only one guy bought it and majority of other people will be pirating it. In my country, we have stores in malls selling pirated PC games. Meanwhile the App Store ecosystem has pushed piracy down that even a $7 software will be selling close to 100% of people who use it. For some developers, the latter is more lucrative.
Oh I don’t think the change has been good or bad, it’s just a different world we live into with a healthy mix of both.
 

Pakaku

macrumors 68040
Aug 29, 2009
3,273
4,844
Are you suggesting that what Apple is currently doing with their locked ecosystem is bad for consumer choice?
I was more implying it was good for Apple to only have one store, and that's why they would never allow it. So yes, it is bad for consumer choice when there are no choices other than Apple's App Store, since your only choice is what Apple's store offers. Nothing is stopping more games from being published on the store, but it's still your one and only choice for the consumer to buy from

I don't think more stores would guarantee better consumer choice, though (even in the PC gaming world, every games store has their own exclusives, like Epic), but if the gates aren't opened, there will never be any potential for more choice on iOS
 
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