Is it possible to install ONLY windows on a Mac?

[Neil321]

People have attempted to make a bootable external hard drive that boots into Windows, and it seems to be more than tricky.

Many thanks for the reply,yes im aware that alot of people have tried and possibly failed to get windows to boot from a external.But this way would be different as windows & drivers would be
installed while the drive is still in the Mac then taken out and put in a external rather than cloned

 

[jbg232]

From my own experimenting with bootcamp on a mbp when you create a bootcamp partition there is a small partition that also has to be created to allow bootcamp to run on a mac. I'm not sure if this is just a "bootcamp+leopard" thing or a "required to use windows on mac" thing. My main goal in this is to make a 200GB (the full size of the HDD) NTFS partition to run windows. Obviously we all know that I could install bootcamp and keep a 5-10GB leopard partition. But if I did that I would be running windows using bootcamp support - not a bad thing in itself. My question though is whether windows can be installed WITHOUT boot camp.

Can a mac boot to a windows disc during its startup (EFI on macs) AND allow a windows installation from that bootup? I assume that during the windows installation when it gives me the hard drive map I would be able to delete everything from there and start from scratch. I'm not so sure of this though because of the problem in bootcamp where it creates an extra partition which may be required to run windows on a mac in the first place.

Basically when you install bootcamp with leopard you wind up with these partitions:
1. Leopard
2. Weird unused windows partition (that I think is required for booting windows but may only be needed if you want to use windows + leopard at the same time) - this partition can only be created by bootcamp I think
3. Windows partition

If you delete partition #2 windows will not run in bootcamp, this is a fact.

Would you still be able to install windows if you didn't have this #2 partition that bootcamp creates - ie. is it proprietary and necessary to run bootcamp first to install windows on a mac?

Can anyone answer these questions from page 1?

 

[balamw]

Would you still be able to install windows if you didn't have this #2 partition that bootcamp creates - ie. is it proprietary and necessary to run bootcamp first to install windows on a mac?

Can anyone answer these questions from page 1?

Remember that the Mac is an EFI/GPT system not a BIOS/MBR system it only emulates BIOS/MBR to provide legacy OS support. This #2 partition is where EFI can store its settings and it is not by any means proprietary, it's just a FAT32 partition with a different ID so it can be identified by the firmware.

Here's your answer though http://refit.sourceforge.net/myths/

Myth: Mac OS X requires GPT

This is mostly a myth. Mac OS X boots and runs just fine from disks using MBR partitioning, or even APM (Apple Partition Map, used on PowerPC Macs).

However, the Mac OS X Installer will refuse to put a fresh copy of Mac OS X on a disk that’s not using GPT. You can work around this using cloning tools like SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner. Install Mac OS X on a GPT-partitioned disk first, then clone it onto the disk of your choice.

Apple’s firmware updates are another issue. The exact requirements are not known at this time, but they are known to not work if you don’t have GPT and you don’t have a EFI System Partition.
Myth: Mac OS X requires a hidden EFI System Partition

Every GPT-formatted disk is supposed to have an EFI System Partition, and Apple’s tools create one at the beginning of the disk. However, Mac OS X doesn’t actually use it; the EFI System Partition is completely empty on a standard Intel Mac. Apple has added a HFS+ file system driver to its firmware, and the firmware boots Mac OS X directly from the partition it is installed on.

Also see above; Mac OS X can boot from a MBR-only disk with no trace of an EFI System Partition.

There is still some uncertainty about firmware updates, though. So far no one has investigated how they work in detail, and some people believe they require the EFI System Partition to be present.

Again. If you ever think you might need a firmware update. Make sure you have a GPT partitioned OS X install handy.

B

 

[Trainwreck707]

With my new Mac Pro dual 2.8 turned on I put the Windows XP Pro x64 install disc in the disc drive and shut the computer down. I then popped out my original hard drive and installed a new one in bay 2. After I restarted the computer it recognized the XP install disc and I proceeded to install Windows (SP 1). I then installed the drivers I had collected beforehand and updated the system to SP 2. It was very easy and I never used Boot Camp. When rebooting without the original hard drive in, it boots directly into windows, so the answer to your question is definitely yes.

 

[Supaklaw]

I was going to say, I've now installed both XP 64 bit and Vista 64 bit... with the bootcamp failing to properly set it up so although it technically "erased" the partition to prepare for windows... the Win install seemed to install fine without boot camp's help. I never installed drivers off the OS X CD and simply downloaded them directly from nVidia, realtek. XP had both my Apple wireless mouse and keyboard running. I simply have to Ctrl+Cmd+P+R to reboot into Mac.

These installs were both onto separate blank drives in my new Mac Pro, not onto my OS X drive... so it wasn't partitioning, just a clean install.

 

[jbg232]

With my new Mac Pro dual 2.8 turned on I put the Windows XP Pro x64 install disc in the disc drive and shut the computer down. I then popped out my original hard drive and installed a new one in bay 2. After I restarted the computer it recognized the XP install disc and I proceeded to install Windows (SP 1). I then installed the drivers I had collected beforehand and updated the system to SP 2. It was very easy and I never used Boot Camp. When rebooting without the original hard drive in, it boots directly into windows, so the answer to your question is definitely yes.

I was going to say, I've now installed both XP 64 bit and Vista 64 bit... with the bootcamp failing to properly set it up so although it technically "erased" the partition to prepare for windows... the Win install seemed to install fine without boot camp's help. I never installed drivers off the OS X CD and simply downloaded them directly from nVidia, realtek. XP had both my Apple wireless mouth and keyboard running. I simply have to Ctrl+Cmd+P+R to reboot into Mac.

These installs were both onto separate blank drives in my new Mac Pro, not onto my OS X drive... so it wasn't partitioning, just a clean install.

VERY interesting... Has anyone ever tried this with Windows XP Pro 32-bit or Vista Ultimate 32-bit?

 

[balamw]

VERY interesting... Has anyone ever tried this with Windows XP Pro 32-bit or Vista Ultimate 32-bit?

Why are you having such a hard time understanding the answer is yes.

Any Mac with Boot Camp compatible firmware will boot legacy operating systems through BIOS emulation. That includes Linux, XP, Vista, etc....

The forums are rife with success stories of folks installing Windows without Boot Camp holding their hand.

Repeat after me: Boot Camp Assistant is just a pretty face to repartition your hard drive and prompt you for the right kind of Windows install disc to keep it simple (SP2 single-disc retail) and preserve your ability to dual boot OS X and Windows.

You can boot OS X from MBR, you can boot Windows from MBR, you can boot Linux from MBR.

I've installed XP Upgrade, others have installed MCE, Linux, etc... on their Macs.

WARNING: If you go down this path (format your internal drive with an MBR partition table only) and do not have a Mac Pro or Macbook with easily removable drive, or do not have OS X on an external drive you may run into issues when a firmware update is released.

B

 

[zmunkz]

I didn't read through this whole thread, so I am sure this has already been said.... But I know you can have only windows if you have an extra HDD to set it up with.

I know this *not* because I wanted to set it up this way, but due to an issue with Bootcamp, I can only boot into windows if I physically unplug both hard drives associated with OSX, and turn on the computer with only my windows HD. When I do that, there is only a windows OS in there... no mac anywhere.

Dunno if that helps...

 

[jbg232]

Ok, so I did a ton more research on the topic and figured it out.

Here's the answer to the original question of how to install windows only to your mac (three different setups but the same point in all of them):

XP on Macbook Pro
Vista on Macbook Pro
Vista on Macbook Air

Although there do seem to be two different approaches:

1. Load leopard DVD from bootup -> go to diskutil -> delete all partitions -> create mbr windows partition (fat32 or ntfs) -> restart with windows dvd and install

2. Install bootcamp 2.0 from leopard DVD -> reboot with vista dvd (I guess this method only works with vista) -> go to recovery console of vista setup -> type diskpart to start the disk management utility -> format hdd completely -> convert your drive to MBR by doing a select drive 0 and convert mbr



Just a few more questions (mostly to balamw):

1. How important would it be to keep the ability to have firmware updates - ie. how often does the firmware get updated, and what do the updates entail?

2. I got conflicting answers regarding the gpt installation. If I clear the gpt partition from the hdd, is there any way to install a gpt partition later on? mac os x later on (on an external drive if necessary)? The article you quoted seems to suggest no (because you need gpt partition to install mac os x, but doesn't say how to get gpt partition/formatting back).

 

[balamw]

Just a few more questions (mostly to balamw):

1. How important would it be to keep the ability to have firmware updates - ie. how often does the firmware get updated, and what do the updates entail?

2. I got conflicting answers regarding the gpt installation. If I clear the gpt partition from the hdd, is there any way to install a gpt partition later on? mac os x later on (on an external drive if necessary)? The article you quoted seems to suggest no (because you need gpt partition to install mac os x, but doesn't say how to get gpt partition/formatting back).

There have been a few firmware updates for the Intel Macs, these tend to affect things like power management, fan control, enabling Boot Camp, etc... These are equivalent to a BIOS update on a PC, i.e. something you may not have to do very often, but when you need it, you need it.

Just like you blew away the GPT partition table to create a new MBR partition table, you can do the opposite with Disk Utility. You should be able to boot OS X from the install DVD, at least to the point of running Disk Utility, wipe the drive and install a new GPT partition table, then re-install OS X from scratch, but wouldn't it just be easier to have a bootable, GPT partitioned, external drive already on hand for when you needed it?

I know you don't want to discuss it, but why? You could just preserve a minimal OS X install on the internal, set the boot preference to default the boot to Windows and lose nothing but a few GB on your HDD. When/if you choose to boot OS X, just hold down option.

B

 

[jbg232]

I know you don't want to discuss it, but why? You could just preserve a minimal OS X install on the internal, set the boot preference to default the boot to Windows and lose nothing but a few GB on your HDD. When/if you choose to boot OS X, just hold down option.

Because I'm still deciding if this is going to be done on a macbook air, macbook pro, or macbook if it's done at all. If it's the air I want to get all the hard drive space I can (especially if I get the ssd).

 

[balamw]

Because I'm still deciding if this is going to be done on a macbook air, macbook pro, or macbook if it's done at all. If it's the air I want to get all the hard drive space I can (especially if I get the ssd).

More the reason to spend <$100 more to have a bootable external ON HAND, UP FRONT, you'll need some backup method, right?

B

 

[jbg232]

More the reason to spend <$100 more to have a bootable external ON HAND, UP FRONT, you'll need some backup method, right?

Well I currently have a 750GB external HFS+ formatted for time machine, but if I installed only windows I would want to reformat it to ntfs and thus could not install mac os on it right? The prospect of buying another drive (hfs+ formatted) solely for the ultimate purpose of firmware updating seems a little strange to me, but it is a valid point.

I guess it would be done like this:
1. I Realize I need a firmware update
2. Plug in external drive
3. Load with option-select to external drive and wait forever for os x to load
4. Update firmware from apple's website (I've never done a firmware update, is it in software update or like flashing a bios?)
5. Unplug drive
6. Restart computer

Question: How would I load os x onto the external hdd in the first place? Will leopard dvd on bootup recognize external hard drive and install to that? I guess I might have to diskutil it and add a gpt component, correct?

 

[balamw]

Well I currently have a 750GB external HFS+ formatted for time machine, but if I installed only windows I would want to reformat it to ntfs and thus could not install mac os on it right? The prospect of buying another drive (hfs+ formatted) solely for the ultimate purpose of firmware updating seems a little strange to me, but it is a valid point.

I guess it would be done like this:
1. I Realize I need a firmware update
2. Plug in external drive
3. Load with option-select to external drive and wait forever for os x to load
4. Update firmware from apple's website (I've never done a firmware update, is it in software update or like flashing a bios?)
5. Unplug drive
6. Restart computer

Question: How would I load os x onto the external hdd in the first place? Will leopard dvd on bootup recognize external hard drive and install to that? I guess I might have to diskutil it and add a gpt component, correct?

The point isn't just firmware updates alone, it's preserving the ability to boot a $3000 hardware system (assuming MBA SSD) to the OS it was designed for, for whatever reason that might be.

Firmware updates are just the only thing that are KNOWN not to work if you do not have a bootable drive with the (empty) EFI partition. Once you have a way of booting OS X, you can feel free to remove it from the internal put away the external and hope you never have to use it. If you were doing this with a Mac Pro or Macbook the easiest solution is to buy a separate drive for your Windows adventure and just shelve the original drive for a rainy day. This is not likely with the MBA SSD since you would not be able to buy a spare drive so inexpensively, or the MBP or iMac since it is hard to access the HDD in those systems.

You could probably just repartition your Time Machine drive Boot Camp style, small bootable HFS+ partition with a large NTFS partition behind it. I'm not sure Boot Camp Assistant can do this for you, but you should be able to find a guide to do it manually.

And yes the OS X installer has no problems installing to an external from scratch. By default, if you let it at a fresh drive it will use a GPT partition table, just because it is that much better than MBR. You just don't want to have to deal with learning about that when you need it.

Firmware updates come in via Software Update and usually take hold on the next boot of OS X, but if you don't occasionally boot to OS X, you might not know about the updates....

B

 

[gnasher729]

Many thanks for the reply,yes im aware that alot of people have tried and possibly failed to get windows to boot from a external.But this way would be different as windows & drivers would be
installed while the drive is still in the Mac then taken out and put in a external rather than cloned

From what I have heard, one of the problems is that the BIOS has a (primitive) USB driver, uses it to start booting from the external disk, at some point it finds a better USB driver in Windows on the external disk, and then it tries to turn off the primitive driver and switch to the new one - at that point things go badly wrong, because it has just turned off the USB driver it uses to boot from the external hard drive.

No idea if Windows can boot from an external Firewire disk.

 

[jbg232]

Ok, one more question then:

If I do this and completely delete mac os and then install windows and then load up the leopard dvd to install the windows drivers, will that include support for the special keys (media, volume, screen, eject, etc.) or will that require a firmware update?

Edit:
On further thought, will I have any access to bootcamp control panel properties? Is there any way to install this control panel applet (see attachment) if I do a clean format and install without using bootcamp?

 

[Stridder44]

Also wrong. You just install the drivers from the Leopard install disk. No problem at all.

So I have a question, I see that you install the drivers via the Leopard disc, but what about driver updates? How do you get them? In OS X? Does Windows see them and prompt you to update them?

 

[jbg232]

You can install updated drivers by getting them through the internet (or wherever) just like you were using a regular windows pc.

 

[Quillz]

So, just to be sure, it's completely safe to erase all the internal partitions on my MacBook, including the EFI/Boot Camp partitions? I do have an external drive, so if I ever wanted Mac OS X, I just boot to an external and work from there, right?

 

[mreg376]

As the title suggests, is it possible to install JUST windows? I was thinking it might be possible to boot from a windows xp cd, format the hard drive and just install windows and then use the drivers from the leopard dvd that comes with the mac. Is this possible?

And please, I don't want any responses of why it's stupid to do this or why I would be getting a mac when I want a windows machine, the question is purely philosophical so save the rants for other posts. Thanks.

At J&R Computer World in Manhattan they have a 24" Imac that boots up only into Windows XP. I know that because I was curious as to why I couldn't find OS X on the machine, and rebooted it myself. Came back up only in XP. So I would say the answer is yes.

BTW, why would you be getting a Mac if you want a Windows machine?

 

[Neil321]

At J&R Computer World in Manhattan they have a 24" Imac that boots up only into Windows XP. I know that because I was curious as to why I couldn't find OS X on the machine, and rebooted it myself. Came back up only in XP. So I would say the answer is yes.

BTW, why would you be getting a Mac if you want a Windows machine?

So what happens when apple release a firmware update?

 

[brand]

No, it is not. The system is configured for a Mac OS. Remember, Apple is not "open source" like a PC is.

This statement is incorrect in several ways. Care to explain ho PCs are open source?

 

[maxshanly]

It is possible, I did it by accident at work whilst trying to work out how to clone a Novell ZenWorks Image onto a Mac mini.

 

[brand]

clone a Novell ZenWorks Image onto a Mac mini.

How did that go for you?

Right now we run ZENworks Desktop Management 7 with about 4000 workstations. We just created a new eDirectory tree and are currently migrating ZENwork Configuration Management.

 

[maxshanly]

How did that go for you?

Right now we run ZENworks Desktop Management 7 with about 4000 workstations. We just created a new eDirectory tree and are currently migrating ZENwork Configuration Management.

We had loads of problems and I won't know for definate if the new method I tried has worked until I go into work later today. When I first did it because it was converting partitions from FAT32 it some how wiped the OS X partition.

Myself and my colleague tried various methods that we found off the web on how to apply the image to the Boot Camp partition but they were either too complicated or to time consuming. In the end the big problem was that to image onto it it needed to be an NTFS partition as having it as a FAT32 partition just caused problems when applying the image.

So we booted into an XP Installation Disk and started the installation, after it had started to install some files on the partition (still as FAT32) we turned the Mac mini off and rebooted into the disk again. From there we ran recovery console and formatted and converted the partition from there.

Needless to say it actually showed up on the option screen on boot, which was good as this hadn't happened before. It was getting late so we just set the image to install and then we left for the weekend.

I will know if it had worked around 12 PM today. I'l come back and say whether it did or not then.

P.S: If this has worked I shall be writing up a guide.