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MP 1,1-5,1 Is it safe to use Windows on a Classic Mac Pro without botching the bootROM?

Yay! Your tool reports NO MS Certificates! That's good to know.
I have as you advised, saved a firmware backup.
I shall read a bit more on this whole subject before making any more rash moves.

One last question. Is it safe to assume that Linux does not take liberties with the firmware like MS does?
 
I've just been watching a YouTube by Mac Sound Solutions inc. describing a MacOS app called "Windows Install" that automates safely installing Windows on an OCLP-equipped cMP 5,1 directly from within MacOS without the need for USB installers etc. etc. It sounds like the author has combined all the OCLP steps for this process into an idiot-friendly graphical package and I have to say that I am very tempted. I realise that having previously dumped and securely saved the boot ROM would be wise.
So I would like to ask if anyone has experience of this and would recommend it?
I am all ears!
 
Manteur said:
I've just been watching a YouTube by Mac Sound Solutions inc. describing a MacOS app called "Windows Install" that automates safely installing Windows on an OCLP-equipped cMP 5,1 directly from within MacOS without the need for USB installers etc. etc. It sounds like the author has combined all the OCLP steps for this process into an idiot-friendly graphical package and I have to say that I am very tempted. I realise that having previously dumped and securely saved the boot ROM would be wise.
So I would like to ask if anyone has experience of this and would recommend it?
I am all ears!
Click to expand...
Yes for a csm bios install.

No for an Uefi install. It just has the option to pull the windows bootloader .efi binary, to make it not bootable without OpenCore.

After all, it is a great and helpful tool. But it does not take the need to run uefi Windows thru OpenCore or RefindPlus.
 
Many thanks for your reply, Macschrauber. I'm still not quite clear though. The written description for the video claims:

"You need to be running OpenCore and Mac OS 10.13 or later. The app also has built in BootRom Protection for your Mac Pro 5,1 so no worries about bricking your Mac Pro due to Microsoft certificates being written to your boot rom."

And the worked example in the video shows the Windows install appearing in the OCLP boot picker, which implies it has OCLP boot rom protection. Yes/No?

And with the added protection of switching off the ESP boot flag in the Windows partition so that you cannot accidentally boot Windows without OCLP protection I would have thought that was fairly safe?

Or do you still have your doubts?

I believe there is a BIOS mode install option in the app, but not available for MacOS higher than Monterey.
 
Yes, if the boot rom protection is set, you simply can not boot Uefi Windows natively.

It just boots with help from a boot loader. If you choose one with nvram protection (OpenCore, RefindPlus), you will be set up.

Btw: this is not a 100% safe solution. Windows itself can update its ESP, writing back the .efi binary.

I have a tool in the dumper package to check for this, Check ESPs for MS certificates
even you can set it up to be in the MacOS startup items to check nvram for certificates and ESPs for active Windows UEFI boot loaders:

github.com

Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump/ESP_tools.md at main · Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump

A tool for dumping and analysing Mac firmwares. Plus flashing for Mac Pro 4,1 / 5,1 and Xserve 3,1 - Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump
github.com github.com
 
Last edited:
Macschrauber said:
Btw: this is not a 100% safe solution. Windows itself can update its ESP, writing back the .efi binary.
Click to expand...

Ha! I wondered whether Windows had black magic to reset the ESP flag. I will read up on that link you sent. I would like to understand what I can. Better safe than sorry.
Many thanks again.
 
Macschrauber said:
github.com

Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump/ESP_tools.md at main · Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump

A tool for dumping and analysing Mac firmwares. Plus flashing for Mac Pro 4,1 / 5,1 and Xserve 3,1 - Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump
github.com github.com
Click to expand...
More complicated than I realised. I was just familiar with "ESP" and "BOOT" as On/Off switches in the "Manage Flags" section of GParted (Linux).

Relevant words of wisdom:

The more you know, the more you know how little you know - Aristotle
A little learning is a dangerous thing - Alexander Pope
Better safe than sorry - My Mum
Nevertheless, I think I will proceed with caution, keeping a close eye on things and hopefully always leaving a way back should things go wrong.
 
Manteur said:
More complicated than I realised. I was just familiar with "ESP" and "BOOT" as On/Off switches in the "Manage Flags" section of GParted (Linux).

Relevant words of wisdom:

The more you know, the more you know how little you know - Aristotle
A little learning is a dangerous thing - Alexander Pope
Better safe than sorry - My Mum
Nevertheless, I think I will proceed with caution, keeping a close eye on things and hopefully always leaving a way back should things go wrong.
Click to expand...
It's (as always in life) only complicated, if you miss the basics.

Read what an ESP is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFI_system_partition

Also a lot of things to learn, here: https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/

With basic knowledge this topic is not very complicated, at least what you need to know from a (power) user perspective.
 
Macschrauber said:
very important: make a firmware backup, before you fiddle with Windows. In case you catch certs, you can revert.
Click to expand...
I have just realised that OCLP writes entries to the bootrom. I don't know if it matters much, but it's rather irritating.
I do have a firmware backup as you recommended but it's a pre 144.0.0.0.0 version.
I'm thinking that I could boot a High Sierra disk, revert the firmware, Apple update to Mojave to get back to 144.0.0.0.0, then make a new backup that becomes the new save.
Am I missing any obvious problems?
 
Manteur said:
I have just realised that OCLP writes entries to the bootrom. I don't know if it matters much, but it's rather irritating.
I do have a firmware backup as you recommended but it's a pre 144.0.0.0.0 version.
I'm thinking that I could boot a High Sierra disk, revert the firmware, Apple update to Mojave to get back to 144.0.0.0.0, then make a new backup that becomes the new save.
Am I missing any obvious problems?
Click to expand...
You can just use the 144 firmware, make a full nvram reset (hold cmd-alt-p-r without releasing the keys until the Mac chimes 4 times) and boot a fully supported OS, after. And dump the firmware.

This gives you an almost clean firmware dump.

Or hire me or Alex to rebuild a clean firmware for you, with other advantages, like an updated bootloader.
 
Macschrauber said:
You can just use the 144 firmware, make a full nvram reset (hold cmd-alt-p-r without releasing the keys until the Mac chimes 4 times) and boot a fully supported OS, after. And dump the firmware.

This gives you an almost clean firmware dump.
Click to expand...

Success!

Made a clean* Mojave install on a completely** empty SSD
Did a 4 chime NVRAM reset
Booted into recovery mode and disabled SIP
Booted into Mojave
Ran the Macschrauber RomDump tool***
Saved the .bin file to a USB stick and transferred it to iCloud
Booted into recovery mode and enabled SIP
Booted into Mojave, and all is well.

*Glad I had a genuine Apple "CreateInstallMedia" USB to hand. I would recommend us tinkerers have one in the drawer.

**USB connected it to a Linux box and used GParted to delete ALL partitions and leave the entire SSD as empty space. A bit OCD I realise.

***The report no longer contains any references to OCLP in the boot order, 34875 bytes free space, and all comments OK/Healthy

So I'm reassured that it is in a reasonably hygienic state and am glad to have a more relevant backup.

Many thanks for all your helpful advice.
 
One more question relevant to Windows/firmware safety on a cMP 5,1.

Is it safe to install Windows 7 on a High Sierra disk via Boot Camp? I wouldn't imagine Apple would provide a method for damaging their own product, but adopting the Hippocratic of principle of "above all, do no harm" I am keen to be certain about this. Can one just rely on Boot Camp Installer to do everything necessary to safely install Windows 7, or does one have to adopt any special measures to ensure a CSM installation?

Why you ask, would I wish to do such a strange thing? Well, there are RX580 drivers available for Win 7, and Win 7 has a compatibility mode for running 32 bit Win XP Apps, so could this be a route for running retro games that do need a bit of Direct 3D acceleration without needing to swap hardware? Probably just wishful thinking, but hey you never know!
 
As far as i know, the Windows install with vanilla bootcamp (running from official supported OSX) will always generate a MBR-/hybrid bootloader and never UEFI with bootx64.efi.

With High Sierra it will work, not sure if it will accept the old Windows 7 to install.
 
Borowski said:
As far as i know, the Windows install with vanilla bootcamp (running from official supported OSX) will always generate a MBR-/hybrid bootloader and never UEFI with bootx64.efi.

With High Sierra it will work, not sure if it will accept the old Windows 7 to install.
Click to expand...
Excellent! The High Sierra Boot Camp Installer does indeed offer to install Windows 7 or 8. In any case I've got an ElCap install USB as a fall back but it doesn't look like I'll need it.

As to whether Windows 7/RX580 will play nice with retro games, I think I'll just adopt the empirical approach. I'll buy an authentic Windows 7 disk - not sure I fancy an ISO of uncertain provenance. They're reasonably cheap on Ebay these days. It'll become a Janus machine - born in 2012 with one face looking back to the 1990s and one face looking forward to the 2020s.

I'm really enjoying this!
 
Manteur said:
Excellent! The High Sierra Boot Camp Installer does indeed offer to install Windows 7 or 8. In any case I've got an ElCap install USB as a fall back but it doesn't look like I'll need it.

As to whether Windows 7/RX580 will play nice with retro games, I think I'll just adopt the empirical approach. I'll buy an authentic Windows 7 disk - not sure I fancy an ISO of uncertain provenance. They're reasonably cheap on Ebay these days. It'll become a Janus machine - born in 2012 with one face looking back to the 1990s and one face looking forward to the 2020s.

I'm really enjoying this!
Click to expand...

From what I've seen, there's only a Windows 7 x64 driver for the RX580.
I installed it without any problems under BootC in High Sierra, but once there, I realized there are no drivers for the RX580.
I need them to flash the RX580 (with the original firmware). But again, I can't. He probado con varias imágenes de W/x64 que he encontrado en internet y nada. Ya no se que hacer.
 
segundojazz said:
From what I've seen, there's only a Windows 7 x64 driver for the RX580.
I installed it without any problems under BootC in High Sierra, but once there, I realized there are no drivers for the RX580.
I need them to flash the RX580 (with the original firmware). But again, I can't. He probado con varias imágenes de W/x64 que he encontrado en internet y nada. Ya no se que hacer.
Click to expand...
Hola segundojazz,
I'm gonna give it a go. I'll report back in due course. Fingers crossed.
 
I realise this is off-topic and I promise not to hijack further, but this may be of interest to others.

I installed Win 7 64 bit using Boot Camp Assistant in High Sierra, scrabbled around a bit to find the legacy AMD Drivers for the RX580, installed the original Unreal game (1998) from a CD and it all works beautifully!

There's always a way! :)
 
Glad I found this recent thread... I'm trying to install Windows 7 on my new-to-me cMP 5,1 with an RX580... how about that?
Current setup NVME 2 partitions: Sequoia and Win10. OCLP 2.2 on the EFI.
That's been the easy part.
I have an SSD I'm trying to install Win7 on for some legacy hardware/software.
In theory this shouldn't be so difficult, but proving hard as of now.
I did manage to get Win 7 Pro with UEFI boot installed, booting, all updated from Legacy Update. I used bootmgfw.efi from Flashboot instead of UEFIseven.
Either way, I noticed that the RX580 Drivers were being installed but not actually loading correctly. Severe artifacts when moving windows around, GPU-Z shows no hardware acceleration being supported. Also the Radeon software says driver isn't installed.
Tried the latest Win7 drivers on down through various 20.x 19.x 18.x 17.x
Nothing to get hardware acceleration working.
So now i'm wondering if it's due to the UEFI goofing around. Now I want to install Legacy Boot, but I don't have any DVDs available.
Is there any way to make a bootable USB from an iso for this OS/hardware combo?

EDIT: I was using the Windows Install tool mentioned above, v 6.2.6, running from Sequoia 15.3.2
Also my Win10 install is supporting hardware acceleration on the same card with latest Adrenalin drivers.
 
Check the card in a second Mac or PC, the card seems to be damaged or has incompatible vbios.

Artifacts are a reliable sign for hardware defects.
 
Borowski said:
Check the card in a second Mac or PC, the card seems to be damaged or has incompatible vbios.

Artifacts are a reliable sign for hardware defects.
Click to expand...
The artifacts only happen in Windows 7 install. Works with hardware acceleration in both Sequoia and Win10. I'm not saying there couldn't be damage, but I'm not experiencing any issues other than in the Win7 install.
 
If I were going to install Legacy boot Windows 7... I can use the Windows Install app in OSX? Do I just format the disk to MBR/FAT in Disk Utility and install to diskXs1 then copy over files from the Boot folder that it creates?
I tried this, option booted and selected Win7 to complete the install but it freaked out. Maybe I should disconnect other drives on the initial boot?
 
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