Is the base MBP 2020 worth getting over any MBA 2020 just for the cooling system?

[ctrlzone]

i have a 2009 macbook pro, it was my first mac and i was initially shocked by the 100 degrees it reached when pushed.
over the years i had to replace the spinning drive and the battery, besides that it's still running well, i have no concerns about 100 degree anymore.

great to hear Turbo Boost switcher works, never heard of this before.
if its never running over 70° C, that should guarantee silent Operation, longer Battery life, and most likely Life span.

Apple should include this as a feature, a "Power mode" switch. (it works like magic)

 

[PurpleIsAFruit]

this looks promising to me

I think what bothers me about this is you’re spending at least £1000 to be having to use third party apps from day 1 to try and repair a serious design flaw. When you’re spending that much money, you shouldn’t need to be doing that. I know some people enjoy modding their laptops with software and hardware mods, but I just want something that’s ready to go from the day I receive it, no fuss.

 

[deeddawg]

I think what bothers me about this is you’re spending at least £1000 to be having to use third party apps from day 1 to try and repair a serious design flaw. When you’re spending that much money, you shouldn’t need to be doing that. I know some people enjoy modding their laptops with software and hardware mods, but I just want something that’s ready to go from the day I receive it, no fuss.

What exactly is this "design flaw" you speak of? What design goals did the engineers have which they failed to achieve?

Under what circumstances does your 2020 MBA spin the fan loudly? Mine is silent except when pushed with a sustained CPU load, then the fan spins up a bit but never what I'd call loud. My MBP15 also spins its fans when I do the same things on it - such as generating a few hundred previews in lightroom or exporting a few dozen RAW images.

We already discussed your concerns with longevity - seems like @ctrlzone's experience should assuage your fears.

BTW - that hyperbolic Maxtech video's been discussed to death. If you need to regularly watch 4K60 videos in a software-decoded codec, on a computer with a less than 4K display, the MBA isn't the computer for you. Same as if you need to regularly do sustained substantial CPU loads, the MBA is also not the computer for you - you're trying to hammer nails with a screwdriver. For those purposes, the MBP with its higher TDP CPU is the better tool.

 

[PurpleIsAFruit]

What exactly is this "design flaw" you speak of? What design goals did the engineers have which they failed to achieve?

Under what circumstances does your 2020 MBA spin the fan loudly? Mine is silent except when pushed with a sustained CPU load, then the fan spins up a bit but never what I'd call loud. My MBP15 also spins its fans when I do the same things on it - such as generating a few hundred previews in lightroom or exporting a few dozen RAW images.

We already discussed your concerns with longevity - seems like @ctrlzone's experience should assuage your fears.

BTW - that hyperbolic Maxtech video's been discussed to death. If you need to regularly watch 4K60 videos in a software-decoded codec, on a computer with a less than 4K display, the MBA isn't the computer for you. Same as if you need to regularly do sustained substantial CPU loads, the MBA is also not the computer for you - you're trying to hammer nails with a screwdriver. For those purposes, the MBP with its higher TDP CPU is the better tool.

Well the design flaw is that the heatpipe isn’t connected to the CPU. Even with the chip’s setup that’s still not a great design.

I don’t have a MBA - I’m a prospective buyer who’s concerned about getting the best value for money. By the time you start speccing up the MBA you’re coming very close to MBP territory. I really don’t think my usage requires a MBP, but it’s not hard not to worry about a laptop which can’t cool itself without limiting the performance. The only reason they didn’t connect the heat pipe was to keep a performance separation between the Air and the Pro, and that seems very disingenuous of Apple to me. It shouldn’t be the case with a brand new MacBook that you need to use third party apps to stop the turbo boosting just so the device doesn’t heat up and make the fan go crazy.

It’s tough because I know I don’t need a MBP, and I don’t want to spend that extra money if I don’t need to, but that cooling setup makes me think you either have to really baby the laptop not to stress it out, and that it runs the risk of dying sooner from heat damage.

I’m still not confident the i5 in the Air is worthwhile because of the throttling either. The gains are so minimal over the i3 purely because of the cooling system. But buying an i3 doesn’t quite sit right with me either as it seems like the budget option which will let me down in the long run.

I’m very conflicted as you can probably tell haha. I like to think I’m thrifty with my spending, so I don’t like making decisions lightly - especially ones that will impact me for years to come.

 

[deeddawg]

Well the design flaw is that the heatpipe isn’t connected to the CPU. Even with the chip’s setup that’s still not a great design.

I don’t have a MBA - I’m a prospective buyer who’s concerned about getting the best value for money. By the time you start speccing up the MBA you’re coming very close to MBP territory. I really don’t think my usage requires a MBP, but it’s not hard not to worry about a laptop which can’t cool itself without limiting the performance. The only reason they didn’t connect the heat pipe was to keep a performance separation between the Air and the Pro, and that seems very disingenuous of Apple to me. It shouldn’t be the case with a brand new MacBook that you need to use third party apps to stop the turbo boosting just so the device doesn’t heat up and make the fan go crazy.

It’s tough because I know I don’t need a MBP, and I don’t want to spend that extra money if I don’t need to, but that cooling setup makes me think you either have to really baby the laptop not to stress it out, and that it runs the risk of dying sooner from heat damage.

I’m still not confident the i5 in the Air is worthwhile because of the throttling either. The gains are so minimal over the i3 purely because of the cooling system. But buying an i3 doesn’t quite sit right with me either as it seems like the budget option which will let me down in the long run.

I’m very conflicted as you can probably tell haha. I like to think I’m thrifty with my spending, so I don’t like making decisions lightly - especially ones that will impact me for years to come.

I'd suggest that the MBA is designed exactly how "they" wanted it designed. Businesses frequently create product differentiation - whether you consider it disingenuous or not, it's a fact of life and Apple is by no means the first or only company to do so.

Remember that youtube reviewers like the one you cited exist to make revenue - and they do that by getting folks to click on their reviews. Hyper exaggerated reviews get more clicks and more revenue than boring evenhanded reviews. Of course when they hammer it with sustained high CPU loading the fan will kick on. Look on the MBP forum as well and you'll see 100C cpu temps on the 10th gen CPUs there too.

Having had my i5 MBA for several weeks now I remain perfectly happy with it. It is cool and silent most of the time, only generating audible fan when I'm pushing it with a heavy load such as generating 1000 previews in Lightroom. Which also makes the fan go in my MBP15 too.

You need to sit back and think about your specific needs. Do they entail substantial sustained CPU loading or is your usage more of a brief bursty CPU loading nature as is typical for most folks? If you need to pound nails, buy a hammer - not a screwdriver.

BTW - have a look at this video as well.

 

[Saturn007]

Not to be snarky, but how good is your hearing — and how sensitive are you to noise?

Oh, and how noisy is your home or work environment where you don't notice the fan?!

Those are critical factors that are often not mentioned by users who either say ”It's no big deal“ or “It's a major problem”. Also, many people use their laptops on desks, whereas others use them on laps, so the warmer case can matter depending on usage pattern.

I was all set to buy the 2020 i5 MBA, but the more user posts I read (never seen or watched that video — I don't get my information that way), and the more the fan noise, warmer case, and the substantial hit to battery life were mentioned, the less I wanted to spend $1300-1500 on one! I'm sensitive to noise, have excellent hearing, and live and work in an almost noise-free environment.

I'm still tempted by the i3 model, though.

 

[deeddawg]

Not to be snarky, but how good is your hearing — and how sensitive are you to noise?

Oh, and how noisy is your home or work environment where you don't notice the fan?!

Fair questions and I realize you were asking more rhetorically but I’ll answer anyway.

My observations are being made from a quiet home office environment with minimal background noise. I infrequently listen to music and as for hearing I can clearly hear the HDD spinning in my 2TB Seagate Backup Plus Slim external drive from a couple feet away and behind the MBA.

I use the MBA both desktop during the day and laptop in the evening. Alll ase temperature measurements I’ve posted are made with an Etekcity 1022 infrared thermometer.

Hope that helps with the context of my experiences with my MBA.

I would buy a MBP in a heartbeat if I felt it were the better fit to my needs, but the MBA is the best fit for the use I have for it. Point is I feel no need to justify my purchase to myself or any other people. I just see a lot of hyperbole here and hope to provide datapoints for others in as objective a manner as possible.

 

[Sword86]

I’m in the market finally, to replace my late-2008 MB. Yikes, huh?
I know an MBA, and perhaps even the i3/8/256 would do perfectly well for me. OTOH, I would really like to have the $1799 2020 MBP, and prior to retiring I would just go buy it. Times have changed.
Here’s what I’ll say to people worried about CPU life span hitting 100 degrees C on occasion. Forget it.
There just has to be a safety factor built in the CPU, like anything else ever designed on this planet by reasonably intelligent folks. Name it.
For example...The wings on a 747 will endure any loads well beyond what they would expect it to ever see in it’s operational life. Ever seen how they pull on the wings in testing to failure? It’s scary. I’m sure You Tube has videos. Things designed and built properly don’t ‘blow up’ upon hitting their design specs. They have a large SF built in. I’ve seen stuff stressed beyond their ‘stay the hell away, it’s gonna blow’ point lots of times. No worries.
An MBA is likely just fine if it were to hit to 125 C or even 150 C for brief bursts before frying, so  designers likely set it to 100 C to maintain a margin of safety.
My concern is not the occasional temp bump, but whether the throttling or fan noise would piss me off. I think I will take  up on their return policy. I’ll get a i3/8/256 or maybe the i5/16/512, depending on the mood I’m in on that day. If it does the job I’m good. If not I’ll drop the $ for the $1799 MBP. (In Canada I think it is $2399 $CDN) I think these threads have supplied me with all I need now. I just have to get into a store now. S

 

[Emm-Mas]

Very interesting reading what everyone has posted here and you raise a very sensible point sword86 about components being designed to withstand loads that far exceed their intended use. Im essentially in the exact same dilemma as the original poster ie I’m a basic user, the base MBA would probably be ideal for my needs but just concerned a little about longevity. I accept that with my basic use I probably wont hit high temperatures but if my useable changes in the future then i would like to know what would happen to my machine in the long term should it run closer to its full potential and therefore hotter. I hear what you're saying deedawg completely about the cpu being designed to run at 100 degrees therefore not to be too concerned about longevity and about getting the machine designed mainly for its intended use in terms of bursty or sustained CPU use so ill try and keep my questions as brief as possible

1) What evidence is there that machines that run hot actually fail early?? Is this an assumption or is there a strong evidence base for this from either apple or windows PCs? And thus how reasonable is it to assume that a MBA is at risk from suffering from failure relatively early in its life if run hot?

2) little bit of a different question unrelated to the thermal issues but assuming my usage doesn't change and i remain a basic user and assuming the laptop doesn't have any sort of early failure due to heat etc how many years roughly do people think a base model i3 will remain useable for basic tasks like a bit of office, basic web browsing, netflix etc. I accept that laptops don't really slow down per se but as far as I'm aware apps and websites etc become more demanding over time. Ive noted that sword86’s mac is still running from 2008, could a base dual core i3 2020 MBA remain reasonably quick and snappy at performing these sorts of basic tasks for a long time? I don’t necessarily expect the laptop to last for 12 years like sword86 but would like some pretty long term usage from it.

Thanks in advance for all your help ☺️☺️

 

[ctjack]

1) What evidence is there that machines that run hot actually fail early?? Is this an assumption or is there a strong evidence base for this from either apple or windows PCs? And thus how reasonable is it to assume that a MBA is at risk from suffering from failure relatively early in its life if run hot?

Rule of a screwdriver and hammer also applies here. If you are going to game all day and all night, or edit videos one after another for a few years non-stop - then you will definitely kill this laptop.

2) little bit of a different question unrelated to the thermal issues but assuming my usage doesn't change and i remain a basic user and assuming the laptop doesn't have any sort of early failure due to heat etc how many years roughly do people think a base model i3 will remain useable for basic tasks like a bit of office, basic web browsing, netflix etc.

Forever! My old MBP 13 2012 is covering those basic tasks(needs) without any problem at all. It is a 8 years old laptop.
My 2011 Dell XPS also does the same and still able to play games better than my Mac. And it is been 9 years to that laptop.
At this point of evolution of laptops - you never fail on basic task with Apple computers. Of course if you buy $300 Win laptop, it will be struggle from the day one.
The only problem will be battery life decrease over years.

could a base dual core i3 2020 MBA remain reasonably quick and snappy at performing these sorts of basic tasks for a long time? I don’t necessarily expect the laptop to last for 12 years like sword86 but would like some pretty long term usage from it.

Let's put it this way: i3 Air laptop has more power to it than 2017 MBP 13 inch. It also has more power than most of the Win laptops under $500. It will stay the same in the future as you got it the day one. Tech doesn't slow down on its own. It is either you upgrade to heavier OS update or update you programs quite a lot.
You should not concern about i3, i5, MBP 16 6 or 8 core CPU. When it comes to basic tasks - they are all the same. MBP 16 won't be any faster at basic word, excel, browsing.

 

[tthomson]

I was going to go with the base i3 MBA but wound up buying the base 2020 MBP. I just felt like it was worth the extra money to get the quad core without the cooling issues. I am a light user but didn't want to have to worry about over taxing the machine if I did do some Photoshop, etc. I've never owned an i3 and the reviews were good, I just felt like the quad core in the MBP would fit my needs better.

I did exactly what you did and got the base MBP with 16 GB and I love it. Silent operation pretty much all the time but I know I have the ability to push it if I need to.

 

[Blueberry123]

Silent operation pretty much all the time but I know I have the ability to push it if I need to.

This, in a nutshell. Exactly the same quiet and cool experience I have had the last 7 years using a 2013 MBA on my lap, with multiple chrome tabs open.

Now, in 2020, Apple has intentionally limited the new MBA with it's poorly designed thermal performance. I just read the MBA review at androidauthority.com by Edgar Cevantes.

"General use was handled perfectly. I checked my emails, browsed the web with a few tabs open, Netflix and chilled, and checked social media like there was no tomorrow. Things change once you overload the computer a bit. For example, I found the laptop slowed down once I opened more than 10 tabs on Chrome. Safari is better optimized for macOS so I bit the bullet and switched. Problem solved! Now I can open upwards of 20 tabs without issue".

From the many positive reviews, I can expect a great experience using safari with an i3 2020 MBA, but does using chrome mean I now need to buy a base MBP?!

 

[will0407]

@PurpleIsAFruit Have you considered ordering from apple and trying it, then returning if it's not for you?

 

[Emm-Mas]

Rule of a screwdriver and hammer also applies here. If you are going to game all day and all night, or edit videos one after another for a few years non-stop - then you will definitely kill this laptop.

Forever! My old MBP 13 2012 is covering those basic tasks(needs) without any problem at all. It is a 8 years old laptop.
My 2011 Dell XPS also does the same and still able to play games better than my Mac. And it is been 9 years to that laptop.
At this point of evolution of laptops - you never fail on basic task with Apple computers. Of course if you buy $300 Win laptop, it will be struggle from the day one.
The only problem will be battery life decrease over years.

Let's put it this way: i3 Air laptop has more power to it than 2017 MBP 13 inch. It also has more power than most of the Win laptops under $500. It will stay the same in the future as you got it the day one. Tech doesn't slow down on its own. It is either you upgrade to heavier OS update or update you programs quite a lot.
You should not concern about i3, i5, MBP 16 6 or 8 core CPU. When it comes to basic tasks - they are all the same. MBP 16 won't be any faster at basic word, excel, browsing.

Thanks a lot for your detailed advice!! Its reassuring to know the MBA should be decent with basic tasks for years to come! To go back to the heat issue I presume that with basic use you would probably advise me not to be worried about the long term health of the machine, my only concern being the mixed reports about the heating with basic tasks, such as some people on this thread mentioning about reports of zoom calls and downloading causing high temps whilst others on this thread clearly not having that issue. Would you guys say purely from the perspective of long term health and risk of system failure due to the heat issues i shouldnt be concerned if the machine occasionally runs hot for some tasks?

 

[edubfromktown]

More i5 MBA users have reported heat related issues but there are plenty who’ve had no problems at all. I ran an i7 MBA for ~1 month and rarely heard the fans.

The fans would come on and spool up higher over time when I threw heavy sustained workloads at it. For typical every day use, it was a rare occurrence. Even with the cover closed and attached to an external UHD display, mine ran cool.

No design flaw as far as I’m concerned...

 

[PurpleIsAFruit]

I was going to go with the base i3 MBA but wound up buying the base 2020 MBP. I just felt like it was worth the extra money to get the quad core without the cooling issues. I am a light user but didn't want to have to worry about over taxing the machine if I did do some Photoshop, etc. I've never owned an i3 and the reviews were good, I just felt like the quad core in the MBP would fit my needs better.

I did exactly what you did and got the base MBP with 16 GB and I love it. Silent operation pretty much all the time but I know I have the ability to push it if I need to.

I’ve decided to do the same thing, although only with 8GB as that maxed my budget out and I’m a relatively light user anyway so it should be plenty. Even though some very convincing arguments have been made for the Air here, I decided for peace of mind it might be better just to buy the laptop which I know can be pushed if needed and can cool itself down far better. I’m confident with my usage that this MBP should last for years to come - the only thing that might need changing is the battery.

How do you both find general performance on it? The single core score is slightly lower than the MBA so I’m wondering if it seems sluggish at all?

@PurpleIsAFruit Have you considered ordering from apple and trying it, then returning if it's not for you?

Yeah that might have been a good option to be honest. I’ve ended up going for the base MBP so I can always return that if I don’t like it I guess.

 

[tthomson]

I’ve decided to do the same thing, although only with 8GB as that maxed my budget out and I’m a relatively light user anyway so it should be plenty. Even though some very convincing arguments have been made for the Air here, I decided for peace of mind it might be better just to buy the laptop which I know can be pushed if needed and can cool itself down far better. I’m confident with my usage that this MBP should last for years to come - the only thing that might need changing is the battery.

How do you both find general performance on it? The single core score is slightly lower than the MBA so I’m wondering if it seems sluggish at all?



Yeah that might have been a good option to be honest. I’ve ended up going for the base MBP so I can always return that if I don’t like it I guess.

I find the performance excellent. I mainly run Chrome with a lot of web apps and tabs and it's very fast with no fan noise and the bottom of the case only gets lightly warm.

 

[Ghostrider72]

I’m in the market finally, to replace my late-2008 MB. Yikes, huh?
I know an MBA, and perhaps even the i3/8/256 would do perfectly well for me. OTOH, I would really like to have the $1799 2020 MBP, and prior to retiring I would just go buy it. Times have changed.
Here’s what I’ll say to people worried about CPU life span hitting 100 degrees C on occasion. Forget it.
There just has to be a safety factor built in the CPU, like anything else ever designed on this planet by reasonably intelligent folks. Name it.
For example...The wings on a 747 will endure any loads well beyond what they would expect it to ever see in it’s operational life. Ever seen how they pull on the wings in testing to failure? It’s scary. I’m sure You Tube has videos. Things designed and built properly don’t ‘blow up’ upon hitting their design specs. They have a large SF built in. I’ve seen stuff stressed beyond their ‘stay the hell away, it’s gonna blow’ point lots of times. No worries.
An MBA is likely just fine if it were to hit to 125 C or even 150 C for brief bursts before frying, so  designers likely set it to 100 C to maintain a margin of safety.
My concern is not the occasional temp bump, but whether the throttling or fan noise would piss me off. I think I will take  up on their return policy. I’ll get a i3/8/256 or maybe the i5/16/512, depending on the mood I’m in on that day. If it does the job I’m good. If not I’ll drop the $ for the $1799 MBP. (In Canada I think it is $2399 $CDN) I think these threads have supplied me with all I need now. I just have to get into a store now. S

I disagree. The cpu is not the only component there and the mainboard comprises lots of condensers and other small parts that really don't like heat and like even less cooking cycles. The example you cited concerning a 747 is a bit on the off topic side because those stress tests are run to ensure that should the need arise for an emergency maneuver with hi G or pushing the envelope, the mainframe has to resist. This doesn't mean thought that later that day the entire frame needs to be inspected and if damaged it could also be written off. So, returning to our laptop (I am evaluating to buy one) what I don't like - if all this fuss about high temp is true - is all the slow cooking cycles that will occur over its operating life. The cpu could last for long and protect itself, being the most valuable component, but I am not happy with several continuous cooking cycles involving the battery and the single little components soldered on the mainboard.
Just my two cents.

 

[deeddawg]

I disagree. The cpu is not the only component there and the mainboard comprises lots of condensers and other small parts that really don't like heat and like even less cooking cycles. The example you cited concerning a 747 is a bit on the off topic side because those stress tests are run to ensure that should the need arise for an emergency maneuver with hi G or pushing the envelope, the mainframe has to resist. This doesn't mean thought that later that day the entire frame needs to be inspected and if damaged it could also be written off. So, returning to our laptop (I am evaluating to buy one) what I don't like - if all this fuss about high temp is true - is all the slow cooking cycles that will occur over its operating life. The cpu could last for long and protect itself, being the most valuable component, but I am not happy with several continuous cooking cycles involving the battery and the single little components soldered on the mainboard.
Just my two cents.

Please circle the “condensers” you speak of.

MacBook Air 2020 Teardown

A blog-style teardown of the MacBook Air 2020, in which we investigate the thickness of the new Magic Keyboard and discover some welcome tweaks to the internal design.

www.ifixit.com

 

[Ghostrider72]

Please circle the “condensers” you speak of.

View attachment 920107

MacBook Air 2020 Teardown

A blog-style teardown of the MacBook Air 2020, in which we investigate the thickness of the new Magic Keyboard and discover some welcome tweaks to the internal design.

www.ifixit.com

No need to circle them. All those little electronic pieces that you see on the motherboard are resistors, condensers and other small electronic parts. I remember when electrolytic condensers where of common use but they had the bad habit to fail if exposed to heat or after some years. I had them replaced on my transceiver and costed me 80 euros. They use now new kind of equipment but unless you live in Siberia and operating outside in mild to cold temperatures heat can be an issue because it takes its tall on the components. I was right now wondering what will happen in the hot Mediterranean summers where temp can reach over 40C (we don't really like air conditioning)! So, to summarize, this is an issue that must be handled with care. I will probably buy one of this beautiful laptops cause mine is really slowing down to a crawl but I wish they had engineered some channels for a better forced ventilation.

 

[Sword86]

I am going with my gut and giving the base i3 a shot. I am a real basic user. I look at people‘s uses here and laugh. I doubt I’ve ever had more than 3 tabs open on purpose. I recently switched back to using Safari after reading about Chrome loads and rarely run ever more than one program open.
I Use Mail, Instagram, Twitter, browse news sites, Message, upload photos once in a while, download Kindle books and browse forums. I’m fully able to buy whatever I want and can appreciate folks going to the MBPs so one just KNOWS they have headroom.
For the first time in my entire life I am gonna go base on something. I’ve always gone overkill where the only complaint is you paid more than you may have needed to. If the i3 pisses me me off, I don’t feel the answer is to stay with another MBA. I’ll either wait out the release of the ‘14‘ MBP or just drop the $$$ on the $1799 MBP or whatever. By going with the very basic MBA I can then justify upgrading again in a year or so whatever  releases. It would be a completely different story if I went whole hog now and then something came along that I just HAD to have next year. S

 

[deeddawg]

@Sword86 Given what you describe I anticipate you will be perfectly happy.

The only caveat I'd give is that some software may establish artificial limitations on dual-core vs quad-core as Zoom does for being able to use virtual backgrounds. That may not be important to you - it isn't to me - but it is a point of information to be aware of.

 

[Saturn007]

Deed, not rhetorical at all, more of an appeal that people do what you did in response to my post — let us know something about their hearing acuity, environment, sensitivity to noise, etc. before simply making a sweeping pronouncement that their 2020 MBA runs quiet or noisily!

The review by “Riakobotom” or whatever their name is — I should look it up — *RiaKoobcam* — so I was close — was detailed and directly compared the 2019 MBA, and the 2020 i3 and i5 models — ceteris paribus — same ears, same conditions, same sensitivity and they reported striking differences.

See

Review for light users - 2019 vs 2020 i5 vs 2020 i3 Macbook Airs

Disclaimer: I am not telling anyone their experience is wrong, I do not have a degree in processor engineering or fluid dynamics. These are my findings and recommendations and are based on my use case, and what I'm looking for in a Macbook Air. A week after I upgraded my 2015 Macbook Air for a...

forums.macrumors.com

A brilliant, comprehensive review that was more than convincing enough for me — along with the many complaints about the i5 — that the i3 is a better pick for many, if not most, 2020 MBA buyers!