Is the butterfly keyboard really that bad? -- upgrading from a 2012/'15

[kasakka]

People seem to all be discussing the fact that the butterfly keyboards were prone to failure.

For me, simply the feel of the keys was a deal breaker. I hate the lack of movement and feeling of flatness. Obviously not as bad as trying to type on a touchscreen, but nevertheless strange and unsatisfying.

I agree. I noticed going from a 2013 to 2016 model that I was making way more mistakes typing on the 2016 machine. This is directly related to how little travel the keys on the newer model had so it did not feel precise. The comparison to touchscreens is pretty apt, it's only a couple of steps away from that.

The 2015 and earlier models are my favorite Apple laptop keyboard and I still have one of the external keyboards from that era. While the newer ones (2019 onward) are more stable for sideways wobble, the longer travel and smoother feel of the pre-2016 keyboards just feels better to type on.

Apple basically started fixing something that didn't need fixing and my 2019 machine is still only "ok" to me and I prefer typing on a mechanical keyboard. The pre-2016 keyboards were somewhere in between where they had good feel but were more slim.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I'm sure this has been debated to death but I've been out of the loop for a while so I'm not really sure how to approach this issue, and feel like I'm kind of stuck.

Currently I have a mid-2012 15" rMBP which is on its last legs (multiple issues) as well as a 2015 13" MBA as backup (bought when the rMBP first started having issues and now it just barely gets used since I mostly used the rMBP as a desktop).

I really like the 15" form factor so even though I don't need the power I love the retina screen and couldn't downgrade now.

So I'm looking at a 2017 15" rMBP with 16gb/1tb and getting rid of both computers I currently have. The only thing I'm worried about is the butterfly keyboard. Will it last? I mean, there's a key falling off my rMBP right now, so no keyboard is perfect, but I have no way to try the butterfly out before buying but besides spending 2x or more on a more recent computer, I can't think of any way around getting a butterfly keyboard. I'd like to use the 2017 for at least 4-5 years from purchase date, as that would make it as old as my current 2012 is now.

Thanks for any help, just trying to avoid buyers remorse and make the best decision possible.

The 2016-2019 (13" and) 15" MacBook Pros are all trash. The 2019 16" MacBook Pro is okay so long as you understand that Apple and AMD sort of messed up on display drivers when it comes to external displays and that your mileage on external displays might be annoying on all but the highest end GPU option. That said, if your main requirements for this machine are a 15-16" screen, 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD, you can probably find a 2019 16" MacBook Pro, either on OWC, eBay, or the Apple Certified Refurbished Mac section of the Apple online store that isn't too bad.

I'm not saying this is cheap, but if a 15-16" MacBook Pro is a must, it's not bad for what it is: MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019) - 2.6GHz 6-Core 9th Generation Intel Core i7, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, AMD Radeon 5300M

 

[PCMA]

Yes, it really is that bad.

 

[Fishrrman]

Do not, do not, DO NOT buy ANY MacBook Pro that has the butterfly keyboard.

They are pretty much "destined to fail" at some point, and the repair is VERY expensive -- at least $750, because the entire top case of the laptop has to be replaced, even if ONLY ONE KEY fails on you.

Buy something else.

If you like the 15" form factor, then the answer is as simple as it gets:
Buy the 2021 MacBook Pro 16" (configured to your taste).
Look for sales on these, you may be able to get $200-250 off the base configuration...

 

[ian87w]

The fact that Apple published a repair program for all models using butterfly keyboard, that means it's that bad, and Apple knew they are going to be problematic.

 

[smithdr]

Hi K:

I had/have two butterfly keyboard machines. The first was a late 2016 MBP15. I had zero issues with the keyboard through early 2022 when it was replaced by at late 2021 MBP16. The keyboard was replaced twice when doing battery replacements. Batteries generally had very low life on these 2016 MBPs getting no where near 80% through 1000 cycles.

I still own a 2019 MBA. No keyboard issues so far.

I liked the butterfly keyboard as I can type faster. But then again I have a very lite touch. I can't help but think that all the issues with the butterfly keyboards are because some individuals really mash the keys when typing.

Don

 

[Nicole1980]

Hi K:

I had/have two butterfly keyboard machines. The first was a late 2016 MBP15. I had zero issues with the keyboard through early 2022 when it was replaced by at late 2021 MBP16. The keyboard was replaced twice when doing battery replacements. Batteries generally had very low life on these 2016 MBPs getting no where near 80% through 1000 cycles.

I still own a 2019 MBA. No keyboard issues so far.

I liked the butterfly keyboard as I can type faster. But then again I have a very lite touch. I can't help but think that all the issues with the butterfly keyboards are because some individuals really mash the keys when typing.

Don

LOL, another example of the well worn fallacy: 'it didn't happen to me so it must not be that big a deal'.

 

[smithdr]

Nicole,

Not saying that at all. Apple did eliminate the butterfly keyboard most likely because of a higher failure rate and many individuals did not like the feel.

But I had a total of 4 butterfly keyboards--3 on the 2016 MBP15 (1 original and 2 through battery changes) and the original on the 2019 MBA that I am using to type this message. I did not have one butterfly keyboard failure. Considering how bad they supposedly were/are I should have expected at least 1 failed keyboard. But I had none!

Please remember that only a small fraction of MacBook users are on MacRumors let alone even heard of it. The problem with MacRumors is that it is something of an echo chamber of complainers where real world user experiences are different. How many of these MacRumors complaints are the same individuals writing over and over again? So I expect most did not have issues with the butterfly keyboard or it was resolved with one replacement.

Don

 

[kuebby]

Nicole,

Not saying that at all. Apple did eliminate the butterfly keyboard most likely because of a higher failure rate and many individuals did not like the feel.

But I had a total of 4 butterfly keyboards--3 on the 2016 MBP15 (1 original and 2 through battery changes) and the original on the 2019 MBA that I am using to type this message. I did not have one butterfly keyboard failure. Considering how bad they supposedly were/are I should have expected at least 1 failed keyboard. But I had none!

You did it again.... that's the fallacy. It doesn't matter if you had one computer or 100, it's just your personal experience as Nicole said.

This thread is plenty to convince me that the butterfly keyboard is bad news, even if there is the occasional person who hasn't had a negative experience (and even the non-negative experiences weren't supportive except for 1-2 people). And the fact that Apple gave 4 year warranties out... Apple is a ****ing miser and would never give a penny back if they didn't have to.

 

[smithdr]

Kuebby,

Apple is a ****ing miser and would never give a penny back if they didn't have to.

All I did was to take the time to give you my personal experience. Your decision to buy or not is entirely a personal decision. No point in carrying on a conversation with an individual that needs to use expletives to make their point.

Don

 

[MPclk2006]

I'm sure this has been debated to death but I've been out of the loop for a while so I'm not really sure how to approach this issue, and feel like I'm kind of stuck.

Currently I have a mid-2012 15" rMBP which is on its last legs (multiple issues) as well as a 2015 13" MBA as backup (bought when the rMBP first started having issues and now it just barely gets used since I mostly used the rMBP as a desktop).

I really like the 15" form factor so even though I don't need the power I love the retina screen and couldn't downgrade now.

So I'm looking at a 2017 15" rMBP with 16gb/1tb and getting rid of both computers I currently have. The only thing I'm worried about is the butterfly keyboard. Will it last? I mean, there's a key falling off my rMBP right now, so no keyboard is perfect, but I have no way to try the butterfly out before buying but besides spending 2x or more on a more recent computer, I can't think of any way around getting a butterfly keyboard. I'd like to use the 2017 for at least 4-5 years from purchase date, as that would make it as old as my current 2012 is now.

Thanks for any help, just trying to avoid buyers remorse and make the best decision possible.

I have a 2017 MacBook Pro (13in) and have never had an issue with the keyboard. I don't know if the issue you bring up is only with the 15'', but like I've said, I've never had an issue. I also don't mind typing on it which I've also heard people complain about.

 

[smithdr]

No point adding any more to this thread. The OP had their mind made up before they even posted. OP should just pony up and get a 2021. Why invest in an old design that has been discontinued. But beware. There are numerous complaints about the speakers popping on the 2021s. Or, better still buy a Wintel machine. No one ever complains about those units and Dell is not greedy like Apple.

 

[wilberforce]

No point adding any more to this thread. The OP had their mind made up before they even posted. OP should just pony up and get a 2021. Why invest in an old design that has been discontinued.

Doesn't seem to be the case. OP appears to have been influenced by this thread, and said, "Thanks everyone for the responses. Sounds like I should just keep using my current computers until it's no longer viable, then upgrade directly to an Apple-cored machine. It's not what I wanted the answer to be."

I think it is a valuable thread, not only for OP, but for others considering the same move. It is valuable to have both experiences, good and bad, described.

 

[FattKingHugeman]

it is really bad. I have a 2017 macbook pro 15 inch with the 2nd gen butterfly keyboard and I hated that thing. it's like typing on flat surface. You gotta be careful of any dirt or debris or even dust. it will render the keyboard useless.

Please stay away from the butterfly keyboard macbook for all you can. For now at least go for the M1.

 

[1rottenapple]

I have an air compressor for cars that I used to blow on my 2017 keyboard. I think its one reason why it didn't fail. it became a maintenance thing to blow it out every few weeks. Sometimes the keyboard gets something lodged in there and blowing it through regularly got it out. But really this is a computer now a car tire that needs air it kinda got ridiculous. Thanks apple and Johnny ive.

 

[Sterkenburg]

Yes, it is that bad. While keyfeel is largely a subjective matter, the total lack of reliability is a design flaw and there is nothing that can be done about it. Had 3 replacements across different machines, easily the most frustrating experiences I had as an Apple user.

The 4-year replacement programs are going to expire soon, and when that happens the next (expensive) repair is on you. At this point in time, avoid the butterfly at all costs. There are great alternatives.

 

[appleino]

I‘ve had a total of four keyboard replacements and three key cap replacements (always several key caps at once) on the two 2018 MacBook Pros in my family. Avoid theses at any cost, there hasn‘t been a single Apple product I had more trouble with than these machines. Upgraded to a 2021 MBP M1 Max recently and while this one has its own flaws (like problems reading some SD cards or speed and connection issues with all my external Sandisk SSD Pro hard drives), the keyboard has a much better feel. Like someone else said, I‘d also skip Intel processors if you don’t need them for running Bootcamp. Apple Silicon is so more energy efficient and running cooler that it‘s really a joy using these new machines (no more burnt legs and ultra-short battery life).

 

[Jim Lahey]

To redress the balance somewhat, my 2017 Pro is still fine. I had Apple replace one key cap some years ago but it’s been ok ever since so was probably unrelated. That said, more recently it’s used almost exclusively in clamshell mode, and I have never written a novel on it anyway, so the OEM keyboard is probably pretty low mileage compared to some.

All that said, I definitely wouldn’t buy a used one now.

 

[planteater]

What an incredible blunder on Apple's part for the diffusion of such a bad design. It must have cost them many thousands of customers, and untold millions of dollars in repairs. Even today owners of those machines have almost no real resale value.

 

[537635]

My post from a while ago:

My history:
#1 December 2016 - purchased MBP 15
#2 May 2017 - keyboard starts failing - sticky keys (topcase replaced in August)
#3 November 2017 - keyboard starts failing - sticky keys (topcase replaced in December)
#4 December 2017 - keyboard start failing right after service - dead key (replaced in January 2018)
#5 May 2018 - keyboard starts failing again - sticky keys (Apple replaces entire laptop with a 2018 model)
#6 January 2019 - occasional double key presses start creeping up (keyboard replaced in October 2019)

## December 2019 - occasional double key presses start appearing again

Also differences between butterfly keyboards:

1st gen: 2015 Macbook
2nd gen: 2016 Macbook Pro
3rd gen: 2017 Macbook Pro (Apple never acknowledged this, although there is slight change in key design, and some indications that it was also a mechanism redesign), same change for 2017 Macbook
4th gen: 2018 Macbook Pro (additional silicone barrier)
5th gen: 2019 Macbook Pro (dome redesign) - most probably the final redesign

2018-2019 are interchangeable, also 2016-2017. To 2018 keyboard feels more or less like 2019.

 

[Nicole1980]

No point adding any more to this thread. The OP had their mind made up before they even posted. OP should just pony up and get a 2021. Why invest in an old design that has been discontinued. But beware. There are numerous complaints about the speakers popping on the 2021s. Or, better still buy a Wintel machine. No one ever complains about those units and Dell is not greedy like Apple.

In my office we've had plenty of butterfly keyboard macs, some have had the issue, some have not.

But here's the thing, unlike 'popping speakers' a keyboard that suddenly goes bad can totally stop you in your tracks at work. Few other things have the ability to completely knock out your computer and require it to go into service for a week or more.
To me that's the fundemental problem with the 2016-2019 apple laptops: You can't trust them!

If I was going on a two week trip with important work to do, I would wake up every day of that trip wondering if today would be the day that the keyboard fails and screws me over.

So it's a ticking time bomb. The fact that it hasn't blown up in your own face yet doesn't diminish the fact that the issue is there and could burn you at any moment.

 

[Cide]

I'm sure this has been debated to death but I've been out of the loop for a while so I'm not really sure how to approach this issue, and feel like I'm kind of stuck.

Currently I have a mid-2012 15" rMBP which is on its last legs (multiple issues) as well as a 2015 13" MBA as backup (bought when the rMBP first started having issues and now it just barely gets used since I mostly used the rMBP as a desktop).

I really like the 15" form factor so even though I don't need the power I love the retina screen and couldn't downgrade now.

So I'm looking at a 2017 15" rMBP with 16gb/1tb and getting rid of both computers I currently have. The only thing I'm worried about is the butterfly keyboard. Will it last? I mean, there's a key falling off my rMBP right now, so no keyboard is perfect, but I have no way to try the butterfly out before buying but besides spending 2x or more on a more recent computer, I can't think of any way around getting a butterfly keyboard. I'd like to use the 2017 for at least 4-5 years from purchase date, as that would make it as old as my current 2012 is now.

Thanks for any help, just trying to avoid buyers remorse and make the best decision possible.

Hey,
I am just curious - what are the issues you are having with your mid-2012 15" rMBP? I own two of these units, and just replaced a dead SSD in one of them, with a 1TB from OWC. It has brought new life into my old machine, along with a fresh install of Catalina. Is your battery fried / system sluggish / other hardware issues?

I've had the same rMBP as you since it was released in mid-2012, its simply been the best computer I've owned with this sort of longitivtiy. I am sure yours will last another few years!

 

[Nicole1980]

No point adding any more to this thread. The OP had their mind made up before they even posted. OP should just pony up and get a 2021. Why invest in an old design that has been discontinued. But beware. There are numerous complaints about the speakers popping on the 2021s. Or, better still buy a Wintel machine. No one ever complains about those units and Dell is not greedy like Apple.

And one other thing:

> Back in 2016 it was people like you who said 'it's just a few idiots eating crackers over their keyboards'.

> Then 2017 came and people like you said it's "minor issue that just affected a few macs. Get some compressed air and get over it".

> Then 2018 came and apple installed the 'keyboard condom' on those machines and people like you said "see apple fixed it, now stop complaining"

> Then 2019 came and the issues with butterfly keyboards continued and all you had was "I don't know about you people but my keyboard is fine".

> Now, after Apple has extended their warranties on the keyboards several times, done countless fixes (that continue to this day) and has paid out a $50 million lawsuit settlement ... you're still stuck at "well, I don't know ... my keyboard hasn't failed".

Who the heck cares at this point if there's examples of keyboards that haven't (yet) failed!?!? The design has been proven to be so bad for so long for so many people that when you say that, you make yourself sound like you're still defendting the indefensible. So if you feel like you're getting blowback - that's why.

 

[Argon_]

This thread is plenty to convince me that the butterfly keyboard is bad news, even if there is the occasional person who hasn't had a negative experience (and even the non-negative experiences weren't supportive except for 1-2 people). And the fact that Apple gave 4 year warranties out... Apple is a ****ing miser and would never give a penny back if they didn't have to.

I was one of the lucky few who never had a single key fail... It probably wasn't luck. I used one of the clear keyboard covers the entire time I owned the machine.

I definitely wouldn't buy one as my only machine. Even without failures, they are an uninspiring typing experience that fatigues the fingers quicker than normal. A shame bc the 15 tbMBP's form factor would have made it an icon, if it weren't for the keyboard, touch bar, and Intel barbecue inside.

 

[Fishrrman]

planteater wrote:
"What an incredible blunder on Apple's part for the diffusion of such a bad design. It must have cost them many thousands of customers, and untold millions of dollars in repairs. Even today owners of those machines have almost no real resale value."

I suspect that's why Jony Ive was "eased out" of the company...
(caused them a lot of financial damage...)