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Is the Mac Pro still relevant?

  • Yes, Mac Pros still satisfy a need

    Votes: 31 29.5%
  • No, Apple's other products have displaced the usefulness

    Votes: 35 33.3%
  • Maybe if Apple redesigns the Mac Pro and adjusts the price.

    Votes: 39 37.1%

  • Total voters
    105
Firstly, an odd and interesting things about the Xserves and the XDR display is that, completely differently to the consumer/prosumer level products, was that the Xserve and the XDR were piteched as economy/low cost alternatives to the competition. The Xserve was cheap at the time for a rack-mounted server. The XDR was far cheaper than a “proper” reference kontor but claimed to have equivalent accuracy.

According to everymac.com the PPC XServe was $3000 when it came out. Not saying it wasn't good value, but I don't think that was particularly cheap at the time. The big cost-saving though was no software licensing fees: things like Windows Server, Netware and commercial Unix implementations tended to be expensive and based on per-user licensing fees. Plus, XServe supported things like Apple File Sharing Protocol and worked with things like Mac Mail.

Then Linux happened - mostly free software, pay for whatever support you need, from a competitive market, runs much the same server software as MacOS and netatalk for Mac file sharing/Time Machine etc. (although Macs were shifting to SMB by then anyhow). There wasn't really much point to the XServe - nice UIs don't count for a headless server and swish looking hardware doesn't count for a box locked away in a machine room. I couldn't really see any argument for buying an Intel XServe other than habit/familiarity. ARM may have been a bit more interesting, but there were already multiple server-class ARM implementations.

As for Pro XDR - claiming that a fairly coarse mini-LED backlight matrix was somehow equivalent to those $20k reference displays (which had dual-layer LCDs giving pixel-accurate HDR) was always a stretch. However (ignoring the totally shameless pricing of the $1k stand) AFAIK it's still the only 32", 6k, mini-LED illuminated display in town (the cheaper 6k Dell doesn't have local dimming) so it's hard to compare prices.

OTOH, the "pro" Macs haven't always been that expensive if you compare like-with-like: the original Xeon Mac Pro was pretty good value at the time - for a dual Xeon "workstation". The 27" iMacs all had display panels which would probably have sold for the thick end of $1000 as stand-alone displays. Even the stratospherically expensive 2019 Mac Pro wasn't that out-of-kilter with comparable Xeon-W systems - that had similar PCIe bandwidth and >1TB RAM capacity. It was just overkill for most people and the base $6000 model made zero sense unless you were planning to add $10k worth of expansion.

That didn’t happen. The Mini was enough, TB4 gave enough expansion options, and I didn’t need the 5,1.
...and I think that is the general industry trend, even with PCs. PC users I know who always used to have massive tower systems are moving to small-form-factor PCs and laptops for anything other than AAA gaming and AI training. At the other end, if you need heavy lifting you can rent it somewhere in the cloud - and for "trending" things like AI that's where your datasets already live - on the other side of the bottleneck of your personal broadband link.

The current Mac Pro is really nothing more than PCIe expansion box, as without slotted RAM and truly upgradeable storage (proprietary modules don't count) that's really the only thing that's different.
The difference is that it has far more PCIe bandwidth (as well as more slots) than a PCIe expansion box, which is limited to 4 lanes (and only PCIe 3 without TB5). Expansion boxes will get a bit better with TB5 but probably not catch up completely.

An M-series version of that design could be fantastic, as Apple could have total control over the hardware, but I expect they just won't touch it now that they have the Studio

Please, no. An M-series trashcan would be a massive form-over-function folly.

The trashcan design assumed that everybody was going to be using multple GPUs for computing, and assumed that the heat would be spread evenly between the CPU and two GPUs. That led to a triangular core & a cylindrical enclosure. Superficially, a great example of form-follows-function - except Apple bet on the wrong functionality, which is part of the reason why the Trashcan never got an upgrade (plus, it barely worked well enough for the original chips).

The M-series is all on one package and most of the heat comes from that package - and even though the ultra is in some respects two chips they're still fused together in a single package. There's no design reason for the Trashcan's triangle-in-a-circle layout. Having a fairly conventional active heatsink sat on top is boring, but it works.
 
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Reasons to buy an upgraded Mac Pro. Assuming Apple goes with 512 GB RAM.

PCIE, can go up to 32TB internal Storage Fast nand, racked with other Mac Pros, you could get to 2TB of RAM on a thunderbolt 5. memory BW could be a constraint.
If there are devices that need to connect to Mac Pros using PCIE.

Mac Studio is pretty solid, and fewer reasons to go for Mac Pro.
Unless you know something the rest of us do not, IMO we do not yet know what any of the "Reasons to buy an upgraded Mac Pro" may or may not be. Personally I have been waiting to see new MPs. And waiting and waiting and waiting...
 
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When a new Mac Pro was launched in 2023, 3 years since the switch to Apple Silicon from intel processors, Apple should have either re-used the 2013 design or called the Mac Studio the new, redesigned Mac Pro. The expansion provided by the 2019 and previous Mac Pro does not seem to be applicable to the 2023 one since you can no longer add a GPU through the motherboard. Even the other ports available seems to be of no use anymore. I never owned one but just watching from the sidelines so I could be wrong.
The Mac Studio essentially IS the next gen of the Mac Pro 6,1 (2013). What you saying is you’d like a Mac Studio in a cylindrical case.
 
When a new Mac Pro was launched in 2023, 3 years since the switch to Apple Silicon from intel processors, Apple should have either re-used the 2013 design or called the Mac Studio the new, redesigned Mac Pro. The expansion provided by the 2019 and previous Mac Pro does not seem to be applicable to the 2023 one since you can no longer add a GPU through the motherboard. Even the other ports available seems to be of no use anymore. I never owned one but just watching from the sidelines so I could be wrong.
No. The Studio is a great product, properly placed in the Mac lineup, and was appropriately not "called the Mac Studio the new, redesigned Mac Pro."

Mac Pro simply needs its next generation to arrive. Not a loaded Studio but the next MP. Then we can whine about what we like/dislike about it.
 
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The Mac Studio essentially IS the next gen of the Mac Pro 6,1 (2013). What you saying is you’d like a Mac Studio in a cylindrical case.
No. The Studio is its own new product, not "the next gen of the Mac Pro 6,1 (2013)."

Just my product placement/naming $0.02 of course, because [today] functionally the Studio is indeed the next performance step up from the MP 6,1.
 
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No. The Studio is its own new product, not "the next gen of the Mac Pro 6,1 (2013)."
It’s a small form factor workstation machine containing the most powerful processors Apple sells, where all extendability is external. It’s the tier above the Mac mini and the iMac.

That’s exactly what the trash can was.

It’s internals are very different, but the internals of a 2012 MacBook Pro and a 2024 MacBook Pro are different, but they’re Mac Book Pros.

The 2013 MP has arguably far more in common the with Studio in terms of product type than any other Mac Pro - as all other Mac Pros to date have been towers with internal expandibility.
 
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It’s a small form factor workstation machine containing the most powerful processors Apple sells, where all extendability is external. It’s the tier above the Mac mini and the iMac.

That’s exactly what the trash can was.

It’s internals are very different, but the internals of a 2012 MacBook Pro and a 2024 MacBook Pro are different, but they’re Mac Book Pros.

The 2013 MP has arguably far more in common the with Studio in terms of product type than any other Mac Pro - as all other Mac Pros to date have been towers with internal expandibility.
Yopu are right of course. Like my edit said: Just my product placement/naming $0.02 of course, because [today] functionally the Studio is indeed the next performance step up from the MP 6,1.
 
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Sadly, no, but this is because Apple intentionally nerfed it. Upgradable RAM, internal hard drive bays, swappable CPUs and graphics cards? These are solved problems, Apple. Pull your head out of your butt and give the pros what they actually want.

And don’t tell us what we want, you patronizing bastards.
 
Unless you know something the rest of us do not, IMO we do not yet know what any of the "Reasons to buy an upgraded Mac Pro" may or may not be. Personally I have been waiting to see new MPs. And waiting and waiting and waiting...
My last Mac Pro was 2012. I moved on to AmD threadripper Nvidia “Linux workstation. But lack of VRAM on Nvidia is hard pill to swallow for my workflow. I will probably get an Ultra studio to replace my Linux workstation.
 
Chip binning could offer a solution. There are probably numerous Mx Pro/Max chips with fully functional GPUs and defective CPUs. Apple could adapt these into Apple Silicon GPUs, stick an Apple appropriate name on them, maybe 'Booster Cards,' and give professionals access to extra neural engine and GPU cores for local LLMs or other AI development.
 
Chip binning could offer a solution. There are probably numerous Mx Pro/Max chips with fully functional GPUs and defective CPUs. Apple could adapt these into Apple Silicon GPUs, stick an Apple appropriate name on them, maybe 'Booster Cards,' and give professionals access to extra neural engine and GPU cores for local LLMs or other AI development.
Yeah, cause people who paid thousands of dollars for a "reconfigurable" Afterburner, that never had any reconfigure options are going to fall over themselves for another specialist accelerator from Apple.
 
Upgradable RAM, internal hard drive bays, swappable CPUs and graphics cards? These are solved problems, Apple.
Not on a system-on-a-chip designed around package-mounted LPDDR RAM (can't be upgradeable unless you count LPCAMM, which seems to have sunk without trace) and integrated GPUs sharing RAM with the CPU and using on-chip TB4/5 controllers for input/output.

Apple Silicon has been a huge success for the laptops and SFF systems - it's just not the tool for the job for the 1% (and shrinking) of the Mac market that needs a Big Box'o'slots. Apple could make an ARM processor for that market, but it would throw away most of the distinctive features of Apple Silicon, and its performance might be almost as good as a Xeon or Ryzen/Epyc system with the same GPU cards running the same software (but probably more up-to-date 3rd party drivers).

Sure, ARM might be lower power, but who cares if you're going to plug in a pair of power-guzzling GPUs the size of Manhattan...? Power efficiency counts for a lot in the laptop/small-form-factor market (where Apple is successful), it counts for a lot in the high-density computing/server market (where Apple doesn't have a dog in the race, which has already started). The Mac Pro is neither of those - it's where ARM has the least to offer.
 
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Everyone I know who ever had any generation of Mac Pro has replaced it with a Mac Studio, if they stuck with desktop Macs at all. My own upgrade path was via the high end 5K iMac, of which we had 2 before going with a Studio.
 
I work for a public broadcaster. We've bought thousands of Mac Pros over the years.
Last few years though it's pretty much been only Studios and Minis(along with MacBook Pro and Air).

We used to do a lot of heavy stuff via XSAN over fibre channel. Still do for the heaviest DPX workflows. But the rest is pretty much all NAS nowadays, and the built in 10gbit in the Studio and Mini can handle that.
 
I believe it's still relevant, but context is important.

Since the launch of the iPhone, and to some degree the iPod, Apple has been under increasing pressure to release what many would consider to be highly-successful products that's satisfy mainstream audiences. But this has created an issue with our perception of what it means for a product to be relevant and successful.

Vision Pro is a great example of this. Now, I'm not saying this is a flawless product by any stretch of the imagination - it's more like a prototype, in fact, whether that is morally right or not to launch - but what Apple considers to be successful sales is likely very different to us as critics. If they've sold even half a million Vision Pro, that is likely a good return for such a niche product. Likewise, we cannot compare the relevance of the iPad mini to the iPad Air, even if the sales figures are vastly different, because they satisfy different audiences: Apple expects this.

But the Mac Pro, as we all know, is in an odd (self-inflicted) position.

Apple released 7,1 shortly before the Apple Silicon transition, possibly with the intention of serving the final group of customers who needed that availability of power on x86, primarily to industries it has good relations with. Apple would have known that Silicon would take many years to catch up to the combination of Xeon and high-end AMD graphics on a double-Duo format.

Yet in one respect they shot themselves in the foot by debuting the M2 version, because it was both a step forwards and backwards compared to the prior Intel version. One may argue that an M3 Ultra and M3 'Extreme' release, even if a year later, would have been received far better.

Performance aside, the Mac Pro still has an identity crisis. It is so close to the Mac Studio that many question its value. Is it really worth paying that much more for PCIE expansion? They don't tell a sell a convincing story as to why the Mac Pro enclosure really is worth that much more, given its position in the market.

This leads on to the market position itself. Simply, the Mac Pro is no longer a necessity for a larger professional audience because other solutions exist that replace internal modularity. GPUs are now on a SoC and BTO. RAM is on the package. The PCIE components themselves are now used by fewer users due to changes in workflow and software.

And perhaps the most convincing argument: the Mac Pro is no longer required in order to get the best performance from a Mac, and the workflows themselves have become so resource-light that even a MacBook can edit multiple streams of 4K video and be used for coding - ideas that would have once been fantasy.

If Apple is to keep the Mac Pro, then it needs to seriously think about two things.

First, what is its position in the product line-up? Considering that the Studio Ultra model is $4K (do correct me), then the Pro must be at least more expensive to support the larger modular enclosure. This immediately keep the audience limited.

Second, the enclosure itself needs re-thinking for modern workflows. It needs shrinking down with a vision for what it really ought to be in 2025, which is a Studio with PCIE modularity.
I think it is ironic considering the hate MP2013 got. Too early for sure but now most people uses a non expandable Mac for professional work or migrated to Nvidia friendly win machines.
 
I think it is ironic considering the hate MP2013 got. Too early for sure but now most people uses a non expandable Mac for professional work or migrated to Nvidia friendly win machines.
I think the "hate" is centered around not being able to use graphics cards in the PCIe slots. When the whole 2013 Mac Pro discussion was being had the primary argument for PCIe slots was graphics cards. With the 2023 Mac Pro you have the slots but you can't use them for the number one thing that buyers of the Mac Pro used those slots for. Graphics cards were the one thing that really could take advantage of the speeds offered by PCIe. Thunderbolt / USB can handle everything else.
 
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I don't think they know what to do with the Mac Pro at this point, although given its history of extremely long wait times between updates, it's far too early to consider it entirely out.

Personally, a Studio Ultra is all the machine I really need, and in my workplace we're seeing the Mac Pros slowly replaced by Studios, not Pros. I have to say, though, that the most recent update to the Studio Ultra was very confusing, coming out based upon an outdated chip architecture. As some have speculated, that could be to create an additional gap between Studio and Pro, potentially putting the newest and best Ultra (or potentially Extreme) chip in the Pros, while limiting the Studio to bygone chips. In a way it would be similar to the gap created by putting newest-gen chips in iPad Pro and obsolete chips in the iPad Air to create greater distinction between the models.
 
PCI expansion is greatly needed by many for flash storage, video ports, 10-25GbE Ethernet ports, extra USB expansion cards, FireWire cards, audio cards etc. The list is almost endless. That is why Apple talked about its customers that need PCI expansion (Hollywood companies etc.) and that is why the Mac Pro exists. Many even buy an M2 Mac Pro just so they can have a 20TB (or somewhere north of there) PCI scratch drive that is unmatched via Thunderbolt for editing.

Yes, it is very much needed in 2025. It just needs to be upgraded to the M4 Ultra at least. Major bonus points and extra buying will happen if it comes with an Extreme chip, as was the original intention.
 
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And at the end of the day, all Apple Silicon macs are just iPads with enlarged capacities, and different peripherals. IF Apple allowed macOS to boot on an iPad, it would be undetectable to a user.
Sure, until it very quickly throttled itself due to heat.
 
PCI expansion is greatly needed by many for flash storage, video ports, 10-25GbE Ethernet ports, extra USB expansion cards, FireWire cards, audio cards etc. The list is almost endless. That is why Apple talked about its customers that need PCI expansion (Hollywood companies etc.) and that is why the Mac Pro exists. Many even buy an M2 Mac Pro just so they can have a 20TB (or somewhere north of there) PCI scratch drive that is unmatched via Thunderbolt for editing.
Aside from flash storage everything else (except, maybe video ports because I don't know what that is) is easily handled via Thunderbolt / USB. In fact David Plumber (of Daves Garage) gave internal storage as the justification for buying his 2023 Mac Pro.
 
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... Sure, ARM might be lower power, but who cares if you're going to plug in a pair of power-guzzling GPUs the size of Manhattan...? Power efficiency counts for a lot in the laptop/small-form-factor market (where Apple is successful), it counts for a lot in the high-density computing/server market (where Apple doesn't have a dog in the race, which has already started). The Mac Pro is neither of those - it's where ARM has the least to offer.
The Mac Pro 2019 with two Radeon Pro W6800x Duos gave the same speed in DaVinci Resolve benchmark test, as one Radeon 7900 XTX. And barely faster than the Mac Studio M1 Ultra. (Not many benchmarks that test multi-GPUs)

I suppose that is why Apple has not even released drivers for next generations AMD cards. That would prevent them from claiming the latest macs are the fastest ever in GPU related workflows.

edit:
24-core Intel Xeon W-3265M, two Radeon Pro W6800x Duo - test A 296 seconds
Ryzen 9 5900X 64GB RAM Radeon RX 7900 XTX - test A 296 seconds
M2 Ultra (24CPU 76GPU 128GB) - test A 232 seconds
M3 Ultra (32CPU 80 GPU 96GB) - test A 180 seconds
 
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