MP 7,1 Is the new 7,1 Mac Pro a failure on arrival

[fuchsdh]

I've been around in IT for a long time. I remember when Apple was dead in the late 1990s. Gone forever! I remember when Windows was going to be gone because, well, EVERYONE would use Linux, and it would be FREE! I mean it is free, but I'm still waiting. Gimp would kill Adobe! Still waiting.

All of that and yes, the Blender comment was a non sequitur.

To be fair, I'd be annoyed if I had to (re)learn Blender, but hey, if it were a better piece of software to kill the moribund stranglehold Adobe has on my industry, that's great! But I'm not holding my breath, and a more likely contender at this point is Blackmagic.

Open-source software is great for lots of things; I've yet to see it be an effective answer for professional solutions, though.

 

[DoofenshmirtzEI]

Open-source software is great for lots of things; I've yet to see it be an effective answer for professional solutions, though.

Uh... whut?

You know, never mind.

 

[fuchsdh]

Uh... whut?

You know, never mind.

Say your piece.

There's no open-source software that's commanding any significant portion of the market in my field.

If that's not the case in yours, that's great. But I'll wager a goodly sum five years form now I'll have no more need for Blender than I do GIMP.

 

[DoofenshmirtzEI]

Say your piece.

There's no open-source software that's commanding any significant portion of the market in my field.

If that's not the case in yours, that's great. But I'll wager a goodly sum five years form now I'll have no more need for Blender than I do GIMP.

If you're just talking about that narrow slice, I'll give that to you. I apologize for knee jerking as if I had to be dealing with flecking idiots who don't realize how much of the tech industry is built on top of open source. Including MacOS.

 

[fuchsdh]

If you're just talking about that narrow slice, I'll give that to you. I apologize for knee jerking as if I had to be dealing with flecking idiots who don't realize how much of the tech industry is built on top of open source. Including MacOS.

Eh, I should have specified I'm talking specifically about pro software tools, less the underlying OS/frameworks (where there are obviously places where Linux is the default, etc.)

 

[th0masp]

People have been evangelizing Blender all around me since high school. It hasn't made a dent in any market I've been in. I'll believe it when I see it.

For what its worth, Blender is making quite the impression in my field (3D) now, starting to turn into commercial support and financial backing. Community-wise it has all the focus now. Maya, Max... hardly feature at all at the moment. Unbelievable how quickly that happened. All it needs is to get into some schools and things will speed up even further.
The next five years should be very interesting. Autodesk seem more than a little worried already. Personally I don't think they'll be able to adapt quickly enough with their old warhorses and will mainly stay relevant due to veterans not being too willing to retrain and established pipelines relying on their apps.

I did the move already three years ago to espace their rental software model, living the high life right now.
It's so flexible and can be bent any way you like, I never experienced anything like it in Autodesk land.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Read that blog post years ago and much as I respect Jeff, he and I build very different software. A non-critical web app, fine, don't use ECC. You're doing CD anyway. Could probably get away with no parity memory entirely.



Okay, maybe your compiles are short, but it appears that our use cases are different enough that we are going to be talking about completely different things. The issue with a release build is that it has all the debug/testing stuff stripped out of it. That makes it difficult to test.


Please don't say "you guys" when it's only a few prima donnas, not all of us.


Continuous delivery implies... release builds! Continuous integration does not. Testing code for programming defects is completely different from the sorts of defects that ECC catches.
[automerge]1579054900[/automerge]

Rails, pins, and power that could be used for any number of things. Hell, in another thread, that internal USB port that is meant for software dongles is being repurposed for any number of other things it could be used for, and god, I had to laugh when someone pointed out you could use that "bay" space to hang your thing you're attaching to the USB port. Nooo, nooo, nooo, Apple meant that for bays and by god, you will not put anything else there!

lol no, it’s used for drive bays. But keep digging. People in China are looking forward to your arrival.

 

[throAU]

For what its worth, Blender is making quite the impression in my field (3D) now, starting to turn into commercial support and financial backing. Community-wise it has all the focus now. Maya, Max... hardly feature at all at the moment. Unbelievable how quickly that happened. All it needs is to get into some schools and things will speed up even further.
The next five years should be very interesting. Autodesk seem more than a little worried already. Personally I don't think they'll be able to adapt quickly enough with their old warhorses and will mainly stay relevant due to veterans not being too willing to retrain and established pipelines relying on their apps.

I did the move already three years ago to espace their rental software model, living the high life right now.
It's so flexible and can be bent any way you like, I never experienced anything like it in Autodesk land.

Yup. Eevee and the UI redesign has stepped up interest in blender a LOT.

 

[Tesla1856]

Read that blog post years ago and much as I respect Jeff, he and I build very different software. A non-critical web app, fine, don't use ECC. You're doing CD anyway. Could probably get away with no parity memory entirely.

Agreed.

Where are these Apple developers that are forced to write code on cheap computers ? Trying to save a few dollars on ram, etc... Are we including 3rd world countries in a MacPro discussion?

All the IT guys and developers I know have nice computers (at work and at home).

Yeah, xMac (whatever that is) isn't gonna happen any time soon. This idea that you can buy one nice machine ... a $3000 expandable Apple desktop and also BootCamp to Windows (so you can also Windows game/VR on it) is a pipe-dream. So, you just buy one of each and get on with it... there is code to write (and games to play). In a few years, there will new machines to choose from.

 

[ssgbryan]

Yeah, xMac (whatever that is) isn't gonna happen any time soon. This idea that you can buy one nice machine ... a $3000 expandable Apple desktop and also BootCamp to Windows (so you can also Windows game/VR on it) is a pipe-dream. So, you just buy one of each and get on with it... there is code to write (and games to play). In a few years, there will new machines to choose from.

Pity we used to be able to do that

 

[danwells]

How many data points exist to show that the xMac market isn't huge? It's not great, but it's not nothing...

First, my conjecture that Puget Systems is an important maker of these computers (as big as anyone): Before choosing whom to request a review system from, I read through a lot of forum discussion among photographers to see who was mentioned - Puget Systems was certainly the dominant name once you got past Apple. There are a few others (Boxx, Origin, etc.) and a few gaming companies with pro lines (Falcon Northwest).

Dell, HP, etc. don't really make these things. They make business computers that don't get this powerful (you can't get a Ryzen 9, and a Core i9-9900 is hard to come by). They make gaming computers with boy-racer case designs with similar CPUs and GPUs, but lower-quality parts and configurations that don't really make sense for creative use - (many photographers report frustration with game machines and tend to turn to Puget and friends). They also make workstations that cost like a Mac Pro and use similar CPUs (no AMD). The closest equivalent made by Dell, HP and friends is lower-end workstations (Z2,Z4) - all Intel...

Second, the revenue of Puget Systems isn't publicly released - but estimates I googled for don't go over $25 million/year. They have around 50 employees, probably 20 of them actually building computers (their job descriptions are online, with pictures and names of the people doing them). It reduces to an 8th grade word problem. If a computer builder can build 2-5 computers in a day, how many computers can 20 computer builders build in 200 days? I'm pretty confident that there are others building on a similar scale, but nobody building "xMacs" on a much larger scale.

Third, there are all sorts of estimates floating around (from market research firms) that Apple has something around 80% (I've seen everything from 60% to 90%, focused around 80%) of the market for personal computers over $2000. That means there are at most a few million non-Apples total sold per year. Many of those are laptops (nice ThinkPads and ZBooks), and quite a few of the remainder are gaming machines - the number of "xMacs" in there is in the hundreds of thousands at most.

From a number of different of ways of looking at it, the number we're after (professional PCs over $2000) seems to be in the low to mid hundreds of thousands, divided among a number of boutique builders plus Dell and HP's lower-end workstation lines. I'd be surprised if any one company is building 25,000 of them...

Apple might steal enough market share from a range of companies to do ~100,000 machines/year if they're lucky - that would make them the 800 lb gorilla in the market.

Trillion Dollar Apple doesn't care about 100,000 machines/year unless they're going to Hollywood (the Mac Pro) - they care about those because some very high prices increase revenue, but more importantly because the people with Mac Pros on their desks put iPhones on your TV screen and in the movies.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I don't get why people want a new xMac. The new machining, tooling for production would cost a LOT. Why not just have the current Mac Pro with an entry model that is more affordable. THAT is much more realistic and doable for apple than it putting out a new model. And the reality is by next year, there is no reason why the current entry level model couldn't be offered for around $3000.

 

[ssgbryan]

I don't get why people want a new xMac. The new machining, tooling for production would cost a LOT. Why not just have the current Mac Pro with an entry model that is more affordable. THAT is much more realistic and doable for apple than it putting out a new model. And the reality is by next year, there is no reason why the current entry level model couldn't be offered for around $3000.

A lot of us just wanted an updated 5,1 @ around $4k. That is easily doable with the parts list that is actually in the 7,1. Low to mid-level Xeon, obsolete AMD video cards, too small SSD. Most of the cost is in the case.

 

[defjam]

I don't get why people want a new xMac. The new machining, tooling for production would cost a LOT. Why not just have the current Mac Pro with an entry model that is more affordable. THAT is much more realistic and doable for apple than it putting out a new model. And the reality is by next year, there is no reason why the current entry level model couldn't be offered for around $3000.

I believe that's what many people want and it ended up morphing into the xMac (I think as an easy way to refer to such a system). I'm sure there are people who want a "true" xMac but I think the majority of people would be satisfied with a $3K - $4K price point on the Mac Pro.

 

[astrorider]

I believe that's what many people want and it ended up morphing into the xMac (I think as an easy way to refer to such a system). I'm sure there are people who want a "true" xMac but I think the majority of people would be satisfied with a $3K - $4K price point on the Mac Pro.

Given you can now get Apple refurb iMac Pros for $3500, in a couple years you should be able to get the current Mac Pro for about $4K.

 

[defjam]

Given you can now get Apple refurb iMac Pros for $3500, in a couple years you should be able to get the current Mac Pro for about $4K.

I believe the context is new, current systems.

 

[fuchsdh]

I believe the context is new, current systems.

I dunno about new (unless they do a stripped down version that's $4K–5K—I can't see them going much lower) but I imagine prices will come done quite comfortably if Apple actually updates this model in 24 months. Even with the previous cheese graters a lot of people were buying the last-gen models and upgrading. In some sense that's how Apple services some of the enthusiast market.

Right now used prices are going to be weird because Apple didn't update the machine in so long and the 2013s don't have the same internal upgrade options.

 

[defjam]

I dunno about new (unless they do a stripped down version that's $4K–5K—I can't see them going much lower) but I imagine prices will come done quite comfortably if Apple actually updates this model in 24 months. Even with the previous cheese graters a lot of people were buying the last-gen models and upgrading. In some sense that's how Apple services some of the enthusiast market.

Right now used prices are going to be weird because Apple didn't update the machine in so long and the 2013s don't have the same internal upgrade options.

People were buying the last gen (defined as 4,1 and 5,1) models because the then current (defined as the 6,1) wasn't what they wanted.

Again the discussion is new, current models. Not discontinued models.

 

[defjam]

How many data points exist to show that the xMac market isn't huge? It's not great, but it's not nothing...

What I have seen is nothing more than speculation based on inferences. As I said earlier: A reasonable argument to make but it's certainly not conclusive. Until you can provide actual direct data which supports your conclusion then it's no more valid than the information that has been provided in support of there being demand for an xMac.

 

[astrorider]

I believe the context is new, current systems.

That context isn't much different though. The iMac Pro is a current system Apple sells new for $5000. You can buy the same machine Apple refurbished for $3500 (same warranty). Similarly in a couple years Apple will likely sell the same Mac Pros for $6K, and you'll be able to buy an Apple refurbished one for around $4K (which you're saying is what the majority of people would be satisfied with). Sure, everyone would prefer to pay $4K instead of 6 for a Mac Pro now, but in the context of people running computers from 2009-10, what's available now versus in 2 years is pretty relevant if it's truly what the majority wants. They were already selling them at $5300 last month with business (6%) and Apple card (6% cash back) discounts. And maybe they'll get closer to your range sooner through retailers like Microcenter that are known to run deeper discounts as well.

 

[defjam]

That context isn't much different though. The iMac Pro is a current system Apple sells new for $5000. You can buy the same machine Apple refurbished for $3500 (same warranty). Similarly in a couple years Apple will likely sell the same Mac Pros for $6K, and you'll be able to buy an Apple refurbished one for around $4K (which you're saying is what the majority of people would be satisfied with). Sure, everyone would prefer to pay $4K instead of 6 for a Mac Pro now, but in the context of people running computers from 2009-10, what's available now versus in 2 years is pretty relevant if it's truly what the majority wants. They were already selling them at $5300 last month with business (6%) and Apple card (6% cash back) discounts. And maybe they'll get closer to your range sooner through retailers like Microcenter that are known to run deeper discounts as well.

Again I repeat: NEW, current systems. Let's keep it simple. No sales, no one off specials, no refurbished, no picking one up out of the back of a truck in a dark alley at 1:00 in the morning.

 

[profdraper]

My 2 cents re. the OP:

Have set up my MP7,1 in the last week or so, migrating material & hardware from both a MP5,1 and a Dell T7910 workstation (still keeping and using the latter in parallel to the MP7,1). Two things: Catalina is a dog IMO; the MP7,1 hardware is brilliant - no doubt will receive design awards in the future and end up in MoMa I'd say.

The hardware has been fuss free, fast, silent and takes everything I throw at it - PCIes, external drive bays, a bizzillion USB devices via hubs, external Displays that are not Apple, etc, etc, etc. Most of the ports are maxxed, no bus load issues; external pro audio IO, BlackMagic Decklink and so on. Such a great piece of tower here. For context, the overall usage is in a multimedia recording studio with pro audio and film hardware & software. It patches into the room perfectly.

Catalina on the other hand .... where does one start? And also in mind that the 'Apple tax' starts here with the embedded cost of a very expensive OS.

I guess the main thing to whine about is in losing so many applications /audio & video plugins & other bits and pieces. And this is not a 64bit vs 32bit thing. It is just plain 'won't work' anymore. For example, earlier version of Pro Tools (2019.6, not 'that' early) or Waves v9. Now these could be upgraded to the very latest versions, but that also costs a bomb, don't need ... In the case of Windows 10 for Workstations (ie, the 'pro version') - all of these apps continue to run and function perfectly.

Ditto for some AU plugins - simply will not be recognised by the apps that need them (a bit silly because AU is simply a Apple propriety wrapper on a VST plug). That's fine then using VST3 with apps like Cubase, Ableton Live, DaVinci Resolve etc, but for the Apple apps Logic & FCPX, some of this is clearly a dead end.

Still have not got to the bottom of all that re. software installs and interdependencies, but my general takeaway is that I have to learn to live with not having some of my software (and longterm investment) not being available anymore. For that I keep the Dell & still prefer the UI and OS control over the rather awful Catalina.

So, all the above should even more strongly support a 'clean install' process, but in my experience, also you really need to pay attention, & to hunt & peck & test throughout the process because of Catalina.

 

[astrorider]

Again I repeat: NEW, current systems. Let's keep it simple. No sales, no one off specials, no refurbished, no picking one up out of the back of a truck in a dark alley at 1:00 in the morning.

Not sure why someone care so much what the manufacturer's list price is if it's regularly available discounted, even by that manufacturer themselves. Especially in the context of people being unsatisfied with that list price. But whatever floats your boat.

 

[defjam]

Not sure why someone care so much what the manufacturer's list price is if it's regularly available discounted, even by that manufacturer themselves. Especially in the context of people being unsatisfied with that list price. But whatever floats your boat.

Because we could forever be using special circumstances in pricing. For example: At one time Micro Center was selling the base iMac Pro for $4,000 however they're not selling it for that price today. So is $4,000 a reasonable price to use for the iMac Pro?

 

[throAU]

I don't get why people want a new xMac. The new machining, tooling for production would cost a LOT. Why not just have the current Mac Pro with an entry model that is more affordable. THAT is much more realistic and doable for apple than it putting out a new model. And the reality is by next year, there is no reason why the current entry level model couldn't be offered for around $3000.

It doesn't have to cost a lot.

There are commodity cases, power supplies, peripherals, etc. out there. And if you spend a reasonable amount on them (like half what apple is charging) good quality parts are available. At retail cost! Never mind what apple could get at cost/trade price, in bulk!

All apple needs to do to make it their own is stick a t2 chip on it to support their apple special features (or similar) and call it a day.

An entry desktop mac without a monitor, but with expandability shouldn't cost more than $1000-1500 US, talk if $3k being baseline is no better than their current pricing.


That Mac Pro case is likely very expensive to make (due to machining intricate shapes in it from blocks of aluminium). And as a potential xMac user i just don't care. I'd rather spend the money on a blower for my car or whatever. The case looks nice, but its not nice to the point i'd pay what they're asking for it. And i would wager it cools no better than a properly cooled PC with well chosen off the shelf parts.