MP 7,1 Is the new Mac Pro too expensive? [MERGED]

[Clint_Barton]

I'm not a GPU guy, but the WX 7100 is significantly above the 580X from the look of it

From Apple:
AMD Radeon Pro 580X
36 compute units, 2304 stream processors
8GB of GDDR5 memory
Up to 5.6 teraflops single precision

From B&H:
AMD WX 7100 Specs
Stream Processors: 2304
Interface: GDDR5
Configuration: 8 GB
Floating Point Single Precision Performance: 5.7 TFLOPS

From AMD (regarding the WX 7100)
Compute Units: 36

Looks to me like its the same card, but the Pro 580x SKU is special for Apple

 

[skaertus]

I decided to not even try to price out a case, because it would be against apple, so who the heck knows how much R&D budget went into it

It seems like the case is very expensive indeed. And that all this expandability and power can cost really a lot of money.

I do not think the R&D budget was high for this specific case. There may have been some R&D expenses, but not too much to justify a significant price increase here.

 

[wallysb01]

From Apple:
AMD Radeon Pro 580X
36 compute units, 2304 stream processors
8GB of GDDR5 memory
Up to 5.6 teraflops single precision

From B&H:
AMD WX 7100 Specs
Stream Processors: 2304
Interface: GDDR5
Configuration: 8 GB
Floating Point Single Precision Performance: 5.7 TFLOPS

From AMD (regarding the WX 7100)
Compute Units: 36

Looks to me like its the same card, but the Pro 580x SKU is special for Apple

Right, check out the 580 too. 36 compute units, 2304 processors, just higher TDP than the 7100. Looks like an overclocked 7100 with consumer level validation (10% more GFLOPS, TDP goes from 130 to 185). So, if I'm not mistaken 580 > 580X and the 580 is ~$270. I don't know what else goes into the Radeon vs Radeon pro line differences, but obviously what ever that is makes the 580X < WX 7100. So the 580X seems the worst of them all, unless I'm missing something....

 

[Flint Ironstag]

Agreed
I actually priced out the workstation components:

CPU - Xeon W-3223: ~750$ (https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_w/w-3223)

Motherboard - C621 AORUS XTREME: 1800$ (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1460397-REG/asus_rog_dominus_extreme_eeb_atx.html/?ap=y&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrdjnBRDXARIsAEcE5YmUxq_U_KtEUSG5uox1vEkJ39AyNlbTS0_-cEc-1VFQtPcIkGa3PTcaAtiLEALw_wcB&lsft=BI:514&smp=Y)

RAM - 4x Supermicro 8GB 288-Pin DDR4 2666: 296$ (https://store.supermicro.com/memory/ddr4/8gb-ddr4-2666-mem-dr480l-hl02-er26.html)

Power Supply - Enermax MaxTytan 80+ Titanium certified Full Modular 1250W: 400$ (https://www.newegg.com/enermax-maxtytan-edt1250ewt-1250w/p/N82E16817194132)

GPU - Radeon Pro WX 7100: ~ 500$ (https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16814105069?Description=radeon pro wx&cm_re=radeon_pro_wx-_-14-105-069-_-Product) - Its the closest thing i could find to the Radeon Pro 580X

SSD - SAMSUNG 970 EVO M.2 2280 250GB: 135$ (https://www.newegg.com/samsung-970-evo-250gb/p/N82E16820147689)

Dual 10G NIC - AddOn - Network Upgrades 656596-B21-AOK Gigabit Ethernet Card 10Gbps PCI-Express 2 x RJ45: 440$ (https://www.newegg.com/addon-network-upgrades-656596-b21-aok/p/N82E16833516137)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total: ~ 4,321$ Note: This does not include the case, multiple TB3 ports or an operating system.

Base Mac Pro: 6,000$

That's close to what I got without calling my HP rep (discounts). A nice PC case is ?$300? Throw in a TB3 card for $100 and you're done. Wonder if that motherboard you linked is Hackintosh friendly? Always been partial to Tyan & Supermicro when building from scratch.

 

[Clint_Barton]

That's close to what I got without calling my HP rep (discounts). A nice PC case is ?$300? Throw in a TB3 card for $100 and you're done. Wonder if that motherboard you linked is Hackintosh friendly? Always been partial to Tyan & Supermicro when building from scratch.

Try this?

https://passthroughpo.st/new-and-improved-mac-os-tutorial-part-1-the-basics/
Not sure if its validate-able or stable enough for workstation work tho

 

[AustinIllini]

That's close to what I got without calling my HP rep (discounts). A nice PC case is ?$300? Throw in a TB3 card for $100 and you're done. Wonder if that motherboard you linked is Hackintosh friendly? Always been partial to Tyan & Supermicro when building from scratch.

No actual professional would use a setup like that, but you have at it.

Because the Mac Pro is not for you.

 

[Blair Paulsen]

It looks like they put a low end GPU into the base model to keep the entry price from being even higher. Since most of the target market will want lots of GPU resources, it's essentially a placeholder.

I fully understand why they didn't want to offer a low end version of their halo product. MBPs and Minis don't completely address the "hole" in the Mac line, but for peeps who would rather stay on MacOSX they do exist.
Moreover, the iMacPro exists and with a couple of upgrades you can get one for $7-8K that can handle all but the most compute intensive tasks.

For those of us who actually need substantially more than a $7K iMacPro config can deliver, you're getting into true workstation land where competing products are also in 5 figure land. I'm assuming that a mid level mMP 7,1 config appropriate for my requirements (and not a complete budget buster) will land in the $10-15K range. Assuming a decent lifespan - and the ability to actually open the sucker up and replace/add components - the price seems a bit high but reasonable.

I'd also point out that in many situations, an iMacPro with a 10GbE pipe to a server/machine room is perhaps the most cost effective for workgroups. Each machine has enough oomph to be responsive and tasks that need oodles of horsepower can be offloaded to the server(s).

 

[pl1984]

For the masses? Seriously, who’s out of touch? This is not a product intended for 95% of users. That being said, the pricing is disappointing, but that’s apple.

While I do not disagree with this it certainly looks as if it is a product intended for the masses.

 

[ekwipt]

That isn’t in the $6K base. I love the big text though...

Sorry I just copy pasted and didn’t change the formatting! Of course this isn’t the base it’s the 28 core we both knownthatv
[doublepost=1559684449][/doublepost]I’m guessing the motherboard alone would cost upwards $2000 there’s nothing else on the market that has the same features

 

[clarky07]

I fully understand why they didn't want to offer a low end version of their halo product.

So why did they? For 6k it really seems like you could do better than a 256GB SSD and that GPU. Don't get me wrong the system as a whole looks awesome, but I don't think this product is the right product for anyone. If you absolutely have to charge more then do it, but 256GB SSD is just absurd trash on a $6K pc.

 

[wallysb01]

I'd also point out that in many situations, an iMacPro with a 10GbE pipe to a server/machine room is perhaps the most cost effective for workgroups. Each machine has enough oomph to be responsive and tasks that need oodles of horsepower can be offloaded to the server(s).

I guess this is what's kind of confusing to me as well. For those with really big projects and budgets, isn't everything just going to the cloud these days. That's what I'm looking at for my >$10K computing needs.

 

[Blair Paulsen]

Assuming you have a robust connection to the web, particularly fiber that can upload almost as fast as it can download (vs the more common asymmetric hookup that uploads at roughy 10% of the download rate) then speccing a more affordable, "thinner" client and only paying for the big grunt when needed (and presumably billable to client) is a solid option for many use cases. Others, not so much.

 

[wallysb01]

Assuming you have a robust connection to the web, particularly fiber that can upload almost as fast as it can download (vs the more common asymmetric hookup that uploads at roughy 10% of the download rate) then speccing a more affordable, "thinner" client and only paying for the big grunt when needed (and presumably billable to client) is a solid option for many use cases. Others, not so much.

Well, by cloud, that can also mean on-sight compute cluster with local networks. But again, we're now hearing justification of this type of Mac Pro because it is essentially for groups with huge budgets where 10K for a workstation is not a big deal.

 

[skaertus]

So why did they? For 6k it really seems like you could do better than a 256GB SSD and that GPU. Don't get me wrong the system as a whole looks awesome, but I don't think this product is the right product for anyone. If you absolutely have to charge more then do it, but 256GB SSD is just absurd trash on a $6K pc.

Yes, definitely agree. The base price seems deceiving, as many people will opt to have a better GPU and more storage. You can get a Mac Pro for $6,000, but will someone really spend so much in a computer with this video card and only 256 GB storage?

The same happens with the monitor. Why doesn’t Apple charge $6,000 for the monitor and include the stand, which will be required anyway?

 

[kohlson]

For 6k it really seems like you could do better than a 256GB SSD and that GPU.

If what they say is true, then you can access all components and configure your own. The m.2's look to be pluggable. Certainly there are 2 sockets.

The same happens with the monitor. Why doesn’t Apple charge $6,000 for the monitor and include the stand, which will be required anyway?

My (weak) understanding of the value of this monitor is that it competes with $20k+ studio monitors. Many won't want the stand. And there's always a VESA mount (optional).

 

[ssgbryan]

I'm not a GPU guy, but the WX 7100 is significantly above the 580X from the look of it, though when I've been configuring dells/hps, that's also the card I've been using. The 580 and that 580X advertised with the Mac Pro seems pretty similar. The 580 is $270. Also that mother board has 1 10Gbps port. Not sure you really need the dual 10G add-on in that case. Single 10Gbps are like $100 or so. All that said, it only saves maybe $500-600.

I think like the Trash Can, you can squint and see the value here, its just that given the apple markup its hard to swallow if its not the exact right system for you. Ie, why do I need to pay an extra $2K-$3K for a fancy case and 4 GPU slots, if all I really need is a headless Mac with 12 cores and 1 GPU?

The workstation version of the 580 is the WX5100.

 

[kohlson]

The workstation version of the 580 is the WX5100

Help me understand that.
RX 580
8GB 256-Bit GDDR5
Base Freq: 1120-1257
2304 Stream Processors
36 CU
6.2 TFLOPS

WX5100
8GB
Peak: 1086 MHz, Typical: 713 MHz
1792 Stream Processing Units
28 CU
3.9 TFLOPS

 

[Clint_Barton]

Help me understand that.
RX 580
8GB 256-Bit GDDR5
Base Freq: 1120-1257
2304 Stream Processors
36 CU
6.2 TFLOPS

WX5100
8GB
Peak: 1086 MHz, Typical: 713 MHz
1792 Stream Processing Units
28 CU
3.9 TFLOPS

The Radeon Pro 580X =/= RX 580 and the RX580 =/= WX 5100
The Radeon Pro 580X ≅ WX 7100

From Apple:
AMD Radeon Pro 580X
36 compute units, 2304 stream processors
8GB of GDDR5 memory
Up to 5.6 teraflops single precision

From B&H:
AMD WX 7100 Specs
Stream Processors: 2304
Interface: GDDR5
Configuration: 8 GB
Floating Point Single Precision Performance: 5.7 TFLOPS

From AMD (regarding the WX 7100)
Compute Units: 36

Looks to me like its the same card, but the Pro 580x SKU is special for Apple

 

[AdobeWanKenobi]

I mean, Apple has not yet released the full price list for the new Mac Pro, but it seems like it is too much. Just look at the base model compared to the iMac Pro.

Mac Pro
3.5 GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W (4.0 GHz Turbo Boost, 24.5 MB cache)
32 GB 2666 MHz
AMD Radeon Pro 580X 8 GB (36 compute units, 2304 stream processors, 5.6 teraflops single precision)
256 GB SSD
4x PCI-E, 2x 10 Gb Ethernet, 2x USB 3, 4x Thunderbolt 3, Wi-Fi 802.11ac, Bluetooth 5.0
$5,999.00

I'm rocking a PC I built myself with the following specs:
4.5 GHz 8-core (16-thread) Intel Core i7 5960x, with 22.5 MB cache
64GB PC4-24000 (3GHz) RAM
ASUS Strix nVidia GTX 980 TI SuperClocked (6GB of 384-bit GDDR5 RAM, 96ROPs/176TMUs, 2816 shaders, 8GT/s, 5.6 teraflops) (Mobo supports Quad-GPU SLI)
500 GB SSD (Samsung Pro NVME, 2.7GB/s) System drive
256 GB SSD (Samsung Pro) Scratch Disk
1 TB SSD (Samsung Evo) Content Drive
5x PCI-E, 2x 1GB Ethernet, 2x USB 3.1 (10Gbps), 8x USB 3.1 (5Gbps), 2x USB 2.0, 10x SATA 6Gb/s, 2x SATA 10Gb/s, DVD Burner, Blu-Ray Burner, HEADPHONE JACK, 8 Channels of 24bit/192KHz Audio with Optical SPDIF
$4,100.00

...so 13% faster CPU, double the RAM, 7x the SSD storage, an extra PCI-E slot, 2 more USB 3.1 slots, and a faster video card... for a third LESS money. (That machine's about 2 years old, and STILL beats the about-to-be-launched Mac Pro.)

 

[dvdcsmth]

I mean, Apple has not yet released the full price list for the new Mac Pro, but it seems like it is too much. Just look at the base model compared to the iMac Pro.

Mac Pro
3.5 GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W (4.0 GHz Turbo Boost, 24.5 MB cache)
32 GB 2666 MHz
AMD Radeon Pro 580X 8 GB (36 compute units, 2304 stream processors, 5.6 teraflops single precision)
256 GB SSD
4x PCI-E, 2x 10 Gb Ethernet, 2x USB 3, 4x Thunderbolt 3, Wi-Fi 802.11ac, Bluetooth 5.0
$5,999.00

iMac Pro
3.2 GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W (4.2 GHz Turbo Boost, 19 MB cache)
32 GB 2666 MHz
AMD Radeon Pro Vega 56 8 GB (56 compute units, 3584 stream processors, 9 teraflops single precision)
1 TB SSD
10 Gb Ethernet, 4x USB 3, SDXC card, 4x Thunderbolt 3, Wi-Fi 802.11ac, Bluetooth 5.0
27-inch monitor with a 5120x2880 resolution and 500 nits brightness
$4,999.00

The base model of the Mac Pro has a somewhat more powerful processor than the iMac Pro (although no benchmarks were made available, it seems to be slightly faster, and not much); some more ports (in general); and far more expandable.

The base model of the iMac Pro, however, has a much more powerful video card, four times the storage, and comes with a 5K 27-inch monitor.

Yes, the iMac Pro comes with a monitor that would cost more than $1,000 alone. And yet it costs $1,000 less than the Mac Pro. I did not think I would ever say that, but the iMac Pro seems like a bargain now. It is all a matter of perspective.

When released back in 2013, the base model of the previous Mac Pro cost $2,999, and it already came with a 256 GB SSD. Now it costs double. Somehow, the iMac Pro seems just an excuse to raise the prices of the Mac Pro even further. I am shocked.

The Mac Pro is indeed very impressive, but I think Apple is exaggerating (once again). The price is too high in exchange for just more expandability.

[doublepost=1559692413][/doublepost]Yes, far too $$$$ Especially when you realize how much more power and flexibility you can get in a Windows machine for less than half that price. Apple’s money people are getting too greedy, starry eyed, and disconnected from the world of real people, aiming at a small niche market of deep-pocketed suits - probably institutions.

I’ll stick with Apple for the portable devices, but that’s it.

 

[Plett]

Of course it isn't. IF you really care about how your studio looks and do your best work only if you have the best equipment, how can that be considered expensive? This computer will literally make you a better human being. If I were to hire someone to take a headshot for our office directory I now expect the photographer to have a picture of them working on their Spec'd Mac Pro with 2 x-Whatever monitors and an extra one on the floor, just in case they need to get more work done, or I will not give them my $25!

 

[Clint_Barton]

[doublepost=1559692413][/doublepost]Yes, far too $$$$ Especially when you realize how much more power and flexibility you can get in a Windows machine for less than half that price. Apple’s money people are getting too greedy, starry eyed, and disconnected from the world of real people, aiming at a small niche market of deep-pocketed suits - probably institutions.

I’ll stick with Apple for the portable devices, but that’s it.

I think it safe to assume that you are not running ECC memory, as the i7 5960x does not support ECC memory, and your hardware is not "validated" workstation hardware. Thats the difference between a "gaming" rig and a workstation.
If you scroll up a bit you will see my price breakdown of the workstation components

 

[baypharm]

I am not sure why some people are saying the MAXED out version is too expensive. If you have a legit need for 28 cores and 1.5 TB of ram including the new 32" monitor, then it is a walk in the park - it will pay for itself. There have been rumors for many years about a new Mac Pro. Look at this way. If you had saved $600 a month for the last three years you would have the cash to buy one when it is released this fall. It's all about discipline. Unfortunately I know people who spend $600 a month on cigarettes - year after year after year after year. It looks to be a great machine and when coupled with the new Apple display, it will be awesome.

 

[0388631]

Personally, I don't think Apple can say - "only well heeled pros" and stick a consumer graphics card in it. Especially at that price - the WX5100 isn't expensive.

The price of the system isn't the issue, AFA I am concerned - it is what you get for it - it isn't 2016 anymore. 8 cores for $6K isn't getting past the bean counters.

The problem with PCIe 3.0 isn't today - the problem is if Apple goes to sleep for another 2,000 days. Do YOU trust Apple to make updates for this on a regular basis? Tim Cook's Apple doesn't seem to do that.

You seem to have more faith in Intel's engineers than I do.

The way I see it is if you can install any Fire Pro card, then it isn't a bad deal. Though I still agree the base price is obscene given that Apple likely pay 30-40% of each processor's MSRP due to volume sales. Alas, that's the issue with bean counters. They'll look at core count, but won't focus on architecture improvements that provide a better workflow. In other words, if the new processor is 40% more efficient than the old one, it's saved time between projects. I made that figure up, for all I know that is the improvement.

I don't think Apple will sleep for another 2,000 days. The current Pro is terrible. This new Pro is just the old, old Pro with a new skin and new logic board. Again, the price is obscene, but if it's aimed at pure professionals, then price isn't an issue unless you work on low level stuff that doesn't make much per project.


I don't, but they have no choice but to offer it. People keep bringing up PCIe 5, but even the server space won't see it until 2025-2026. AMD simply jumped the gun once PCIe 4 was finalized not that long ago to kick Intel in the teeth over and over again. As far as I'm concerned, given Intel's history, I fully expect more flaws to come out in the next year or two until they launch their new architecture with Keller at the helm. I'm not sure how Zen2 will be, but when you have vendors making dozens of products for a launch product and only a few for Intel based systems, it speaks volumes about the credibility since they had ES processors to play with. The one issue I see with Zen uarch is that people claim there's a latency in music production, but I can't pinpoint anything specific and it's brought up a lot like a myth. Maybe it is.

I'm confident Intel will bring PCIe 4 in a year or two. I'm not confident Intel will or can stop AMD until 2022-2023.

This doesn't stop anyone from building a custom PC if they're a techie and don't want to deal with a system builder. And if their software loadout isn't OS specific. Microsoft got the point and began selling W10 Pro for Workstation, which has some LTSB factors built in. Microsoft also got the point and now lets people delay major updates for up to 18 months while getting minor security ones.

That said, Apple has put more work into Catalina and the future of macOS and iPad OS than they have in years. Something changed at Cupertino. Someone got fired or a department got shafted.


As I said in another post. I'd expect a reworked, actual pro MacBook Pro laptop this year or next. Bigger, more ports, ability to use a high end i9 processor and not throttle itself over and over again like it's got some autoerotic asphyxiation fetish.


The Pro can support up to 1.5 TB of memory in macOS, though I'm sure macOS can support more? W10 Pro supports 2 TB, but Pro for Workstation supports up to 6 TB of memory.

Past a point there's probably a less return on investment for video work and you begin sliding towards scientific territory.
[doublepost=1559695287][/doublepost]

is this the right one?

Intel Xeon W-3175X Processor

$3,078.49

• Processor Manufacturer: Intel
• Processor Core: Octacosa-core (28 Core)
• Clock Speed: 3.10 GHz
• Overclocking Speed: 3.80 GHz
• Direct Media Interface: 8 GT/s

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NDFGMK...olid=2ORVYJE3LVQDD&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

That isn’t in the $6K base. I love the big text though...

Correct. It's this one.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...on-w-3223-processor-16-5m-cache-3-50-ghz.html

 

[baypharm]

I agree the price for the base configuration is wacky. But once you accumulate the 28 cores and 1.5 TB of ram and other options, you have a formidable machine well worth the $20K it will eventually cost (if you add in the new display).