MP 7,1 Is the new Mac Pro too niche?

[AidenShaw]

And said motherboard can be a module pluged into a slot on a backplane, like the oMP.

Not necessarily true. With increasing speeds of memory and future busses, DIMMs and other components need to be very close to the CPU or other bridge.

A daughtercard increases those distances, and adds an additional connector to the path.

It would probably be easier and cheaper to have two different (but similar except for the socket) motherboards.

 

[theluggage]

As he mentioned as well, most studios (myself included) use big and fast network storage solutions. I also don’t need a powerful gpu since I work with audio. Why should I pay for a powerful gpu if I have no need for it?

Its not so much a question of "are those specs sensible for an entry-level machine" as "are those specs sensible for a $6000 machine" - with the obvious comparison being the iMac Pro base model that includes more SSD, a better GPU, a comparable (spec-wise and price-wise) CPU and a 5k display - for $1000 less.

Or - to kick your comment back at you - why should I pay for 8 PCIe slots and 12 DRAM slots* if I only need 3-4 - which many classic Mac Pro users were perfectly happy with?

(* the main hardware feature that distinguishes the MP from a $3-$4k PC workstation - motherboards with more slots are available if you need them).

As for the SSD - even if your main document/project storage is external or networked, you need an SSD big enough for your Apps, sound samples(Logic Pro is about 60GB with its included sound libraries, for example) and the sort of large temporary/cache files that you'll get if you actually need 32GB+ RAM. Its 2019, and 256GB really doesn't give you much headroom.

 

[Nosferax]

Not necessarily true. With increasing speeds of memory and future busses, DIMMs and other components need to be very close to the CPU or other bridge.

A daughtercard increases those distances, and adds an additional connector to the path.

It would probably be easier and cheaper to have two different (but similar except for the socket) motherboards.

The ram would be a part of the cpu tray, not on the backplane.

 

[flygbuss]

Its not so much a question of "are those specs sensible for an entry-level machine" as "are those specs sensible for a $6000 machine" - with the obvious comparison being the iMac Pro base model that includes more SSD, a better GPU, a comparable (spec-wise and price-wise) CPU and a 5k display - for $1000 less.

Or - to kick your comment back at you - why should I pay for 8 PCIe slots and 12 DRAM slots* if I only need 3-4 - which many classic Mac Pro users were perfectly happy with?

(* the main hardware feature that distinguishes the MP from a $3-$4k PC workstation - motherboards with more slots are available if you need them).

As for the SSD - even if your main document/project storage is external or networked, you need an SSD big enough for your Apps, sound samples(Logic Pro is about 60GB with its included sound libraries, for example) and the sort of large temporary/cache files that you'll get if you actually need 32GB+ RAM. Its 2019, and 256GB really doesn't give you much headroom.

Yes, 512 or 1TB would be better, you’re absolutely right. But apparently this did not fit their calculation. I work with Pro Tools not Logic but all my libraries are also external. That way it’s much easier to access them from different machines.
My system drives are usually about 150 to 200GB, containing macOS and all the software I work with.
3-4 PCIe slots are not much to be honest. I’m glad it’s more this time. I have to fit in HDX or HD native cards, black magic, UAD DSP..
I don’t wanna be a jerk here, I see that it would be great to have a smaller modular Mac Pro for a different use case, but I don’t get why some people have such a hard time to see that the actual Mac Pro is pretty amazing for professionals.
The absence of what apparently some’ve wished for doesn’t necessarily have to belittle what Apple released instead.

If you compare it to the iMac Pro, what keeps you from buying just that?
Is it because it’s not modular? Then you just might have found the reason for the difference in price.
I think many people will just go for the base specs and upgrade themselves and Apple probably know and expect that to happen. It might be a way to get their share anyways.

(Everything I wrote is just my personal opinion based on my experiences.
I can’t provide statistics or any other proof. Just in case some are about to ask..)

 

[ssgbryan]

Yes, 512 or 1TB would be better, you’re absolutely right. But apparently this did not fit their calculation. I work with Pro Tools not Logic but all my libraries are also external. That way it’s much easier to access them from different machines.
My system drives are usually about 150 to 200GB, containing macOS and all the software I work with.
3-4 PCIe slots are not much to be honest. I’m glad it’s more this time. I have to fit in HDX or HD native cards, black magic, UAD DSP..
I don’t wanna be a jerk here, I see that it would be great to have a smaller modular Mac Pro for a different use case, but I don’t get why some people have such a hard time to see that the actual Mac Pro is pretty amazing for professionals.
The absence of what apparently some’ve wished for doesn’t necessarily have to belittle what Apple released instead.

If you compare it to the iMac Pro, what keeps you from buying just that?
Is it because it’s not modular? Then you just might have found the reason for the difference in price.
I think many people will just go for the base specs and upgrade themselves and Apple probably know and expect that to happen. It might be a way to get their share anyways.

(Everything I wrote is just my personal opinion based on my experiences.
I can’t provide statistics or any other proof. Just in case some are about to ask..)

It is amazing - if you are using Logic or Final Cut X - if you are not, Apple doesn't sell a machine for you

You can't push an AIO - it is too thermally limited.

 

[flygbuss]

It is amazing - if you are using Logic or Final Cut X - if you are not, Apple doesn't sell a machine for you

You can't push an AIO - it is too thermally limited.

As I stated, I work with Avid Pro Tools.
The Mac Pro is supposed to handle up to 6 Avid HDX cards.

“Avid’s Pro Tools team is blown away by the unprecedented processing power of the new Mac Pro, and thanks to its internal expansion capabilities, up to six Pro Tools HDX cards can be installed within the system – a first for Avid’s flagship audio workstation. We’re now able to deliver never-before-seen performance and capabilities for audio production in a single system and deliver a platform that professional users in music and post have been eagerly awaiting.”

Source: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pr...g-avid-to-the-new-mac-pro-and-pro-display-xdr

What makes you think it wouldn’t be for me?

 

[cram501]

I don’t wanna be a jerk here, I see that it would be great to have a smaller modular Mac Pro for a different use case, but I don’t get why some people have such a hard time to see that the actual Mac Pro is pretty amazing for professionals.
/QUOTE]

It should be very good for a specific set of professionals in a specific industry (maybe even 2 or 3). People keep throwing around "professionals" or "true professionals" without mentioning which industry they are talking about.

It is made for a very narrow group of users.

 

[flygbuss]

I'm not throwing anything around. I'm mainly talking about my own profession which now I have mentioned several times.
I can also see a use case in everything that is connected to video post production (editing, vfx, grading).
If you haven't already, take the time and listen to the guy in the video that was linked a couple of posts ago.
He's not a fanboy at all and comes up with some really good explanations.
I'm sure there are more industries also profiting from the new Mac Pro, but that's outside my own expertise and therefore I can't argue for it.

 

[Nosferax]

It should be very good for a specific set of professionals in a specific industry (maybe even 2 or 3). People keep throwing around "professionals" or "true professionals" without mentioning which industry they are talking about.

It is made for a very narrow group of users.

Which begs the question... If it's so specialized why anounce it with all the hooplah... Just release it via the business communication channels, like HPE and DELL do for their workstations. Beside it's price, there nothing really extraordinary or innovating with this apple offering.

 

[theluggage]

My system drives are usually about 150 to 200GB, containing macOS and all the software I work with.

So, given that, for good performance, you don't want your system SSD to get anywhere close to full, 256GB really is cutting it fine.

If you compare it to the iMac Pro, what keeps you from buying just that?

...can't choose your own display (the iMac display is nice if 5k 27" glossy is what you want), zero PCIe slots, no space for extra internal drives....

"and thanks to its internal expansion capabilities, up to six Pro Tools HDX cards can be installed within the system – a first for Avid’s flagship audio workstation"

Bear in mind the technology that justifies 8 PCIe slots and lets you add 6 HDX cards or whatever isn't something exclusive that Apple have done - its because Intel have upped the max number of PCIe lanes on the recently-launched Intel Xeon processors from 48 to 64 - and that technology will likely be available in cheaper, generic Xeon towers by the time the Mac Pro actually launches. If you're not committed to MacOS via FXPx or Logic then its likely that you'll soon be able to get the same horsepower for a lower price.

 

[flygbuss]

Which begs the question... If it's so specialized why anounce it with all the hooplah... Just release it via the business communication channels, like HPE and DELL do for their workstations. Beside it's price, there nothing really extraordinary or innovating with this apple offering.

C'mon, have you been around the last couple of years?
The whole community has been waiting for a new Mac Pro. MacRumors is full of posts about it if you want to refresh your memory. And please don't tell me that everyone is disappointed now.
Have you seen this?
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-ncmp-hot-or-not.2183836/page-5#post-27424029
[doublepost=1560977147][/doublepost]

So, given that, for good performance, you don't want your system SSD to get anywhere close to full, 256GB really is cutting it fine.



...can't choose your own display (the iMac display is nice if 5k 27" glossy is what you want), zero PCIe slots, no space for extra internal drives....



Bear in mind the technology that justifies 8 PCIe slots and lets you add 6 HDX cards or whatever isn't something exclusive that Apple have done - its because Intel have upped the max number of PCIe lanes on the recently-launched Intel Xeon processors from 48 to 64 - and that technology will likely be available in cheaper, generic Xeon towers by the time the Mac Pro actually launches. If you're not committed to MacOS via FXPx or Logic then its likely that you'll soon be able to get the same horsepower for a lower price.

Pro Tools is available for windows as well, but for reasons I already mentioned a couple of posts earlier it is still not that reliable yet. As long as I remember I was able to get the same horsepower for a lower price if I would've moved to windows. But why would I shift my whole business to a new OS if I'm happy with the current one?
It's not about the plain specs, macOS or OS X is a big part and always has been.
If you see things differently, alright. Move on and don't look back. Isn't it a good thing that people have a choice?

 

[ct2k7]

But motherboards are cheap to design - look at the number of models of ASUS, MSI, GigaByte,... motherboards available.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Apple can't afford two different motherboards. Many of the mid-range workstations (Dell/HP/Lenovo/Supermicro) have both Core and Xeon options using different sockets.

Apple could easily use the MP7,1 as a basis for an xMac. Ditch the big Xeon socket, go with i7 and i9 CPUs, and put a cheaper shell on the chassis. (Who needs a "work of art" case on a machine that's under the desk?) Ditch the proprietary MPX modules and just have some double-wide (or 2½ wide) and a reasonable assortment of 6-pin and 8-pin PCIe auxiliary power jacks.

Push through a revision to T-Bolt to make DisplayPort signals optional. (Have you ever wondered how popular and inexpensive T-Bolt would be today without the stupid decision to require putting video signals on a PCIe extension bus?)

I know they're cheap to design, I'm just wondering if this is something which Apple would entertain. I certainly agree with you though.

 

[AidenShaw]

the technology that justifies 8 PCIe slots

If you're comparing, the MP7,1 only has 7 open PCIe slots. The included half-length card has IO ports that are embedded on the mobo on other systems.
[doublepost=1560979709][/doublepost]

I'm just wondering if this is something which Apple would entertain

Most likely not - especially if there are clueless fans talking about how expensive a second mobo would be.

 

[ekwipt]

As he mentioned as well, most studios (myself included) use big and fast network storage solutions. I also don’t need a powerful gpu since I work with audio. Why should I pay for a powerful gpu if I have no need for it?
Also there are no benchmarks and real life tests how this configuration actually performs, so let’s wait until we see them.
Just because the specs on paper don’t make sense to you doesn’t necessarily mean they actually make no sense to others.
There are plenty of 5k displays out there. I don’t mind a dell display if it does the job. I need a licensed macOS on a reliable machine, for everything else I just buy what fits my needs.

I also work with audio, how many tracks are you using per project though? What would you need the 7 PCIe slots for? What CPU would you buy?
[doublepost=1560986194][/doublepost]

As I stated, I work with Avid Pro Tools.
The Mac Pro is supposed to handle up to 6 Avid HDX cards.



Source: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pr...g-avid-to-the-new-mac-pro-and-pro-display-xdr

What makes you think it wouldn’t be for me?

Nobody needs 6 HDX cards except for maybe film composers and we are talking super high end here (Hans Zimmer high end)

 

[Flaming Gerbil]

Next witness:

LTT has some very good things to say about the design of the MP, and also the PD XDR.
But he writes up a comparable PC hardware config for the MP and discovers...

He'll be buying both for review upon release, so we'll see if his opinion changes.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Not going to happen.
[doublepost=1560875159][/doublepost]

Not a problem if the cpu and chipset is on a processor module/tray. The rest is just software (drivers).

‘Nobody here liked the tray anyway. There have been connection. failures and revision incompatibilities.
[doublepost=1561013712][/doublepost]

Next witness:

LTT has some very good things to say about the design of the MP, and also the PD XDR.
But he writes up a comparable PC hardware config for the MP and discovers...

He'll be buying both for review upon release, so we'll see if his opinion changes.

Don’t quote that click bait artist. Just a few months ago he didn’t even know where the Activity Monitor is. And the other one Dave2d. Or any YouTuber who only use a computer for making videos of themselves talking.

 

[flygbuss]

I also work with audio, how many tracks are you using per project though? What would you need the 7 PCIe slots for? What CPU would you buy?
[doublepost=1560986194][/doublepost]

Nobody needs 6 HDX cards except for maybe film composers and we are talking super high end here (Hans Zimmer high end)

I work in audio post production for feature films. I think the bigger mixing stages would go for 6 cards without hesitation. We have 2 nMP in the smaller tv stage, connected to expansion chassis and HDX3. With the new Mac Pro just one machine would suffice.
But I agree, for an audio edit or a sound designer’s machine you don’t need that much horsepower. With Pro Tools it’s more about the active voices available, not just tracks.
About the PCIe lanes, I could use 5 right now: 2 HDX, 2 UAD, and a Blackmagic Card.
But as I stated before for smaller studios or sound editors a fully spec’ed 5,1 is still enough in most scenarios.
I think I would probably go for the 12 core. It’s hard to say without knowing how it performs an if I would be able to upgrade the cpu myself like it’s been the case with the 5,1 and 6,1.

 

[theluggage]

As long as I remember I was able to get the same horsepower for a lower price if I would've moved to windows.

...but in the last few years that price gap has been increasing and/or gaps are opening up in the range that force people to buy more "horsepower" than they need. They're really testing how much Mac devotees can be persuaded to pay before they switch to Windows or Linux - and not doing anything to attract new users to Mac.

We don't yet really know (a) what sort of "horsepower" will be available on the PC market for $6000 when the newly announced Xeon Ws + matching motherboards (with those extra PCIe lanes) start to feature, or (b) what Apple will charge for CPU/SD upgrades and what the premium is going to be for MPX modules over plain PCIe.

The old MacPros weren't particularly over-priced like-for-like (even the trashcan if you thought external expansion and dual GPU was a good idea) - the MP 1.1 was actually something of a bargain (pity it was abandoned so quickly). What Apple have done now is pre-announced a machine based on brand-new Intel and AMD technology (but not, so much, anything exclusive to Apple) which is difficult to price-match against hardware available today. What we can say is that the entry price for an expandable, headless desktop Mac has doubled.

Isn't it a good thing that people have a choice?

The problem is that many now don't. Apple just hammered the final nail in the coffin of the $3000 Mac Pro, completely removing the choice of people who just wanted 1-2 full-size GPUs and a couple of specialised i/o cards, who just wanted a replacement Mac Pro with an up-to-date CPU/GPU. Then, at the other end of the spectrum, there's the choice of Xeon systems with multiple CPUs that can run 10 graphics cards for GPU-based computing, proper rack-mount systems with redundant PSUs, blade servers etc. for render farms...

If the new Mac Pro happens to meet your need then maybe you are the 'niche' in the title of this thread.

 

[cram501]

I'm not throwing anything around. I'm mainly talking about my own profession which now I have mentioned several times.

I have no idea what profession you're in nor do I try to read past posts to figure it out. That is my point. Apple has made the word "Professional" worthless as reference for their hardware over the past decade. It is good to know who the industries/profession/work this is targeted at or who at least plan to invest in it.

If you haven't already, take the time and listen to the guy in the video that was linked a couple of posts ago.
He's not a fanboy at all and comes up with some really good explanations.
I'm sure there are more industries also profiting from the new Mac Pro, but that's outside my own expertise and therefore I can't argue for it.

I did watch the whole video. He just reiterates the same thing: "It is good for me, therefore it doesn't matter." which seems to be the primary argument from those who liked the announcement. That just strengthens the argument that this is a niche product.

 

[pl1984]

I have no idea what profession you're in nor do I try to read past posts to figure it out. That is my point. Apple has made the word "Professional" worthless as reference for their hardware over the past decade. It is good to know who the industries/profession/work this is targeted at or who at least plan to invest in it.

Apple is using the term "professional" in a relative sense. A system with the professional label is a more capable system than a non-professional model. They are not using it to define who should be using it.

 

[flygbuss]

I have no idea what profession you're in nor do I try to read past posts to figure it out. That is my point. Apple has made the word "Professional" worthless as reference for their hardware over the past decade. It is good to know who the industries/profession/work this is targeted at or who at least plan to invest in it.



I did watch the whole video. He just reiterates the same thing: "It is good for me, therefore it doesn't matter." which seems to be the primary argument from those who liked the announcement. That just strengthens the argument that this is a niche product.

I literally wrote it two posts before your’s.
I’m sorry, but if you’re not remotely interested in what I write, I honestly see no point in arguing with you.

It’s not that I don’t mind or care that others are not happy with what Apple announced. I said now several times that I definitely see your point.
But it’s also about perspective. A lot of prosumers got into the Mac Pro market via a used or refurbished machine. Now the older Macs will most likely become even more affordable. Also in a year you might be able to get your hands on a refurbished new model. More people will be able to afford it in the next years.

Even if it is a niche product. The niche might not be as small as you think.
Time will tell.

 

[cram501]

I literally wrote it two posts before your’s.
I’m sorry, but if you’re not remotely interested in what I write, I honestly see no point in arguing with you.

It wouldn't have responded if I was interested. With that said, I'm not going to find all your posts to see what you've written in the past. There are way to many posters to keep them all straight. I thought we were having a discussion. I'll go into argument mode.

Even if it is a niche product. The niche might not be as small as you think.
Time will tell.

I agree. I think the only way we'll find out is if the MP goes back into the pile of forgotten toys where it spent the last 6+ years. It's where I expect it to be again because I think the target audience is that small.

 

[flygbuss]

It wouldn't have responded if I was interested. With that said, I'm not going to find all your posts to see what you've written in the past. There are way to many posters to keep them all straight. I thought we were having a discussion. I'll go into argument mode.

All right, maybe it was an unfortunate choice of words. Make it ‘discus’ instead of ‘argue’.
English is not my first language.

I think it would be nice if apple would release a smaller but still modular Mac for less money. But they haven’t yet and we can only speculate if this will happen any time soon or at all.
Despite that I know professionals sharing my own profession or at least the same industry, will buy the new Mac Pro. And they are happy that there will be at least one new Pro model they can upgrade to.
It’s only fair to respect that as well.

 

[mdbradigan]

Don’t quote that click bait artist. Just a few months ago he didn’t even know where the Activity Monitor is. And the other one Dave2d. Or any YouTuber who only use a computer for making videos of themselves talking.

I would agree that you should take what they say with a grain of salt, and do informed research of your own. It would also behoove you as the watcher of them both to know where they are coming from - mostly gamer-centric, with an interest in video production. Linus is definitely no Apple fan, but his complaints are technical, not terribly subjective. Dave 2D actually is quite a Mac fan, and says so often. Both are also very aware of the price to performance penalty that Macs have almost always had.

I would recommend anyone to actually watch the LTT video posted above and demonstrate where he's gotten it wrong. Personally, I completely agree with him, and with a lot of posters here in the following:

The high-spec Mac Pro is a feat of engineering - it is awesomely capable. It's excellent that Apple has made this computer. Same with the Pro monitor - it's an amazing reference monitor for colorists, huzzah. The entry-level Mac Pro (and Pro Monitor for non-colorists) ...is ... $3k too expensive... and makes no sense. It shouldn't exist at this price point, and leaves an obvious glaring hole, if not an abject middle finger to Prosumers, which feels like a large segment of the market. They should start it at $10k - as an actual Pro device... and then fill the in-between slot with a box, with the 5k iMac monitor as a standalone at $1,999 or what not. This $3-$5k market is non-served at the moment, hence the complaining.

 

[auxsend]

I have gone back in forth in my head about the new Mac Pro since it's announcement.

It is definitely too niche when you think about the older gen Mac Pro's. The access point was lower back then. I got in back in the Power Mac G4 days. The nice thing was that you could get one for maybe $1500 on the low end. It was still powerful enough for the entry level Pro, but you could spec it up to cost as much as you wanted.

In my mind that was always the spirit of the Mac Pro. A Tower that could grow with you. This tradition more or less carried on until the Trash Can. This new Mac Pro has gone even further to abandon that spirit.

On the other hand,
It basically picks up where the iMac and then iMac Pro leave off, so it makes sense in the line up.
Also, computing power in smaller and less expensive form factors has grown exponentially since the earlier Power Mac days. The truth is, if the new Mac Pro is out of your budget, its performance probably exceeds your needs too.

Since I am of the age group that used to like buying into the next Mac Tower, I am one of many who don't want to admit that the Pro Tower isn't really something I need anymore. I just really liked using Mac Towers, but I'm being told in a somewhat harsh way, that I don't have a use case for something I cherish. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I'm ok with admitting it. I just don't need one anymore. Or maybe the wife won't notice if I open another credit card....