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So, about 6 months ago I bought the 27" i7 imac.. 16GB RAM, and the 1TB HD. I got it for my photography / video business. I also use a second 27" LED Apple display too. I have a ton of external drives connected.. I have three g-safes and one g-tec drive for time machine. They all have to be daisy chained together. The g-safe drives store photo files, and video in RAID 1, and I work from them often.

So, the issue is that the system is slow as hell.. and I want to throw it out the window. I feel like I either need to buy an SSD, or sell it and buy a Pro. I use Aperture 3, CS4 and Final cut all the time.

Thoughts?

I am in the exact same situation as you. I have a 27 i7 Imac. I bought it a few years ago when I was still shooting with a Canon 5d MKII and Canon 40D. 6 months ago I purchased a Pentax 645D. The Raw files from this camera are almost double the size of my 5D MKII so editing is a total pain in the butt. My bottleneck is more and likely IO...I too have 16G of ram. I often times find myself reducing them to 8bit files before printing to save processing time....and this is a shame because I print on a Epson 7900 which supports 16bit on the mac

I have a 1tb drive that is almost full and 2 1tb external drives (firewire) and a 2tb USB Drive for time machine.

My plan is to wait a few months longer and see what happens. If no new Mac Pro is announced or released I will get a 6 core MP and put the external drives internally on the MP. I also plan to buy a SSD Drive and maybe a raid controller.

My biggest issue here is the total cost. I am a little low on money because of the Pentax 645D Purchase ;)
 
I am in the exact same situation as you. I have a 27 i7 Imac. I bought it a few years ago when I was still shooting with a Canon 5d MKII and Canon 40D. 6 months ago I purchased a Pentax 645D. The Raw files from this camera are almost double the size of my 5D MKII so editing is a total pain in the butt. My bottleneck is more and likely IO...I too have 16G of ram. I often times find myself reducing them to 8bit files before printing to save processing time....and this is a shame because I print on a Epson 7900 which supports 16bit on the mac

I have a 1tb drive that is almost full and 2 1tb external drives (firewire) and a 2tb USB Drive for time machine.

My plan is to wait a few months longer and see what happens. If no new Mac Pro is announced or released I will get a 6 core MP and put the external drives internally on the MP. I also plan to buy a SSD Drive and maybe a raid controller.

My biggest issue here is the total cost. I am a little low on money because of the Pentax 645D Purchase ;)

Just a heads up, but there is very likely to be no Mac Pro update until Q4 2011/more likely Q1 2012 as the required workstation class sandy-bridge chips wont hit manufacture until Q4 2011.
 
Just a heads up, but there is very likely to be no Mac Pro update until Q4 2011/more likely Q1 2012 as the required workstation class sandy-bridge chips wont hit manufacture until Q4 2011.

Yeah I was reading that in here.

What I may do is just wait for a sale/refurb on a quad 3.2 or hex 3.33 and get that.
 
interesting info...

If I put the current external drives on an e-sata connection with a card in the Mac Pro.. that would be much faster then I have now? No?

Also, looking at performance.. I hear ya all on having current working projects / library on the internal drives... Is it possible to do this / make sense?

Drive 1. SSD (osx / aps)

Drive 2, 3 and 4 all 2TB regular drives.. can then be connected together, so that the data bits are stripped across them for super fast performance? Thus, I would only use the external for data dumps once a month / off site storage.. and keep the current working library on the three internal drives (shows up as one drive etc..)

Thoughts?
 
interesting info...

If I put the current external drives on an e-sata connection with a card in the Mac Pro.. that would be much faster then I have now? No?

Yes it will be. E-sata as far as I know is the same speed as internal sata...and sata is faster than fw and usb2
 
What haven't you added eSATA ports for faster external speeds to your iMac yet?

It really shouldn't help that much anyway. To my knowledge, existing Firewire 800 ports can run Firewire 3200 devices at full speed. He already has a connector that can transfer do over 3 Gbps.

So if slow external HDD connectors are keeping you down, you'll either be better served upgrading your G-safes (if Firewire 3200 alternatives exist on the market, it looks like you'd be jumping from 75 Megabytes per second with the G-safes to 300 Megabytes per second with hypothetical model x) or your computer.

If I was a professional user where time made money and just couldn't wait, I'd personally upgrade the HDDs to save some cash in a transitionary stage to the next Mac Pro. Apple seems to want to give the legacy ports at least one more 'bout before everything goes Thunderbolt, so you'll probably be able to take the new drives with you and have a whole new setup before the year is done.
 
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interesting info...

If I put the current external drives on an e-sata connection with a card in the Mac Pro.. that would be much faster then I have now? No?

Also, looking at performance.. I hear ya all on having current working projects / library on the internal drives... Is it possible to do this / make sense?

Drive 1. SSD (osx / aps)

Drive 2, 3 and 4 all 2TB regular drives.. can then be connected together, so that the data bits are stripped across them for super fast performance? Thus, I would only use the external for data dumps once a month / off site storage.. and keep the current working library on the three internal drives (shows up as one drive etc..)

Thoughts?
Removing the external drives from the cases and mounting them inside the computer with a Sata connection will help your performance a lot. From there if you want a further increase in performance you would want to look at Raid. There are many raid types but raid 5,6 or 10 would be recommended because they all have provisions for a drive failure without loss of data. Raid 0 is perhaps higher performance but very risky because any drive failure results in the loss of all the data. It is unrecoverable too so it really sucks if it goes down.

Mac OS X has support for software raid meaning you don't have to buy anything to make it work. However its performance will be fairly limited compared to a proper Raid card. This will have onboard processing and ram enabling full performance. If you used 3 x 2 tb drives in a Raid 5 array you'd have 4 tb of usable space with the remaining space used prevent loss of data in case of drive failure. Its a pretty common, reliable and reasonably high performing setup. There are other ways of doing it but considering you have 3 x 2 tb drives already thats probably the right place to start.
 
Thanks for that info Dustin...

The current g-safes are running RAID 1 and there are three, each with two drives with exactly the same data on them. One for photos, one for video, and one for business data. Once a month, we rebuild the drives with a third drive off site.

This system would need to remain as is.. and if we can get a faster connection to the drives (e-sata vs the current fw..) all the better.

I would be interested in striping data with the internal drives on the pro.. (three drives all working as one).. and the fourth as an SSD for the OSX..

wold that work?
 
or.. perhaps on the pro.. have one SSD for OSX and Applications.. and one more SSD for "Work in progress". When I am done, dump to external g-safes and start over.

?
 
It really shouldn't help that much anyway. To my knowledge, existing Firewire 800 ports can run Firewire 3200 devices at full speed. He already has a connector that can transfer do over 3 Gbp.

This is not correct, the existing firewire 800 port only uses the same beta connector as fw3200, it would require a fw3200 chipset (SOC) to get the full speed. the current chipset is limited to 786.432 Mbit/s. and as far as I know apple is not putting fw3200 chipsets in their products.
 
Thanks for that info Dustin...

The current g-safes are running RAID 1 and there are three, each with two drives with exactly the same data on them. One for photos, one for video, and one for business data. Once a month, we rebuild the drives with a third drive off site.

This system would need to remain as is.. and if we can get a faster connection to the drives (e-sata vs the current fw..) all the better.

I would be interested in striping data with the internal drives on the pro.. (three drives all working as one).. and the fourth as an SSD for the OSX..

wold that work?
Since the G-safes have esata connections you could simply use a card that has esata ports on it and you'd get the full performance those drives have to offer. I will say that you'd be able to improve that performance by removing the drives and putting all 6 in your Mac Pro along with a suitable Raid card. You wouldn't be able to remain 'as-is' but your day to day workflow might speed up quite a bit. Its probably worth testing. If you get it setup and aren't satisfied with the performance you can go internal and add a raid card.

The striping you are referring too can be accomplished with Raid 5,6 or 10.

Raid 10 would be the fastest but would cut your usuable space in half. Raid 6 uses 2 drives for redundancy so you loose their capacity but you gain the ability to have two simultaneous drive failures with no downtime or loss of data. Raid 5 uses one drive for redundancy so you maintain the maximum of your usable capacity but can only tolerate one drive failure before complete loss of data. Raid 10 is the fastest and most reliable but you loose half your capacity, its the best choice if you can swing it. Otherwise Raid 5 is probably suitable for most people.
 
+1 but you won't really see 125 MB/s. More likely you'll get around 100 MB/s, which is still a lot better than around 20 MB/s for USB 2 and 30-40 MB/s for FW800. I would recommend options from QNAP and Synology.
You mean fw400, fw800 is a lot faster since it can reach speeds of up to 80 MB/s. Using single disks or RAID can also make a big difference in speed. RAID is able to provide you with a lot more speed, especially with big files. Most NAS devices from manufacturers such as QNAP and Synology provide devices that are able to do RAID5 or even RAID10. A Mac Pro might be a better idea, internal disks are less troublesome than external ones, iSCSI and network shares (like you have with a NAS).

The old external disks can be used as a Time Machine disk. Very useful if you want to revert certain changes or need to restore a backup because you lost something.
 
I had to google to find this again, but this is a nice explanation of why you should use RAID 10 instead of RAID 5

http://miracleas.com/BAARF/RAID5_versus_RAID10.txt
There's no date on that article, but it's rather old (i.e. IDE/PATA disk technology). I suspect that the RAID 5 was done in a software implementation, as most of the hardware RAID products were built around SCSI.

A lot's changed since then, such as SATA and SAS, and more hardware RAID products available built for these newer drive types.

Software implementations of RAID 5 are a really bad idea (in any era), as they cannot deal with the write hole issue associated with parity based arrays (5/6 or nested variants of these). The solution requires hardware.
The striping you are referring too can be accomplished with Raid 5,6 or 10.

Raid 10 would be the fastest but would cut your usuable space in half. Raid 6 uses 2 drives for redundancy so you loose their capacity but you gain the ability to have two simultaneous drive failures with no downtime or loss of data. Raid 5 uses one drive for redundancy so you maintain the maximum of your usable capacity but can only tolerate one drive failure before complete loss of data. Raid 10 is the fastest and most reliable but you loose half your capacity, its the best choice if you can swing it. Otherwise Raid 5 is probably suitable for most people.
That's not always true.

RAID 5 can outperform 10 due to the additional parallelism of disks (sequential access due to video file sizes). For example, lets use 4x disks, each capable of 100MB/s.
  • RAID 10: Sequential performance = (n/2) * speed of a single disk, so (4/2) * 100MB/s = 200MB/s
  • RAID 5: Sequential performance = (n - 1) * 100MB/s * (.85), so (4-1) * 100MB/s * .85 = 255MB/s

As the member count scales up, the performance difference grows quickly due to only 1 disk used for parity in a RAID 5 configuration vs. 1/2 of all members used to duplicate data in a 10.

In terms of relational databases, 10 was faster in the past, but that's even changed with more recent RAID cards.

However, a MP can do a RAID 10 on the internal SATA ports without the need of a hardware RAID card (MP is capable of 0/1/10 or JBOD). A card is required in order to perform any other level. So if 10 is viable performance wise on up to 6x disks (means using the SATA ports in the ODD bays), then it can save on costs since there's no card to buy. Just add disks, configure, and go.
 
Benchmarks still show that raid 10 is faster than raid 5

Edit: raid 10 is the right choice for high volume read and write applications.
 
Benchmarks still show that raid 10 is faster than raid 5

Edit: raid 10 is the right choice for high volume read and write applications.
Where are you getting this from? Pre 1990?

Take a look at ARC-1680 series or ARC-1880 series for example, and the test data (same disks and member count in either configuration). It shows RAID 5 wins out for sequential access.

The only thing faster is a stripe set for sequential performance (same disks and member count). This is clearly stated on wiki's RAID page, as well as others.
 
Where are you getting this from? Pre 1990?

Take a look at ARC-1680 series or ARC-1880 series for example, and the test data (same disks and member count in either configuration). It shows RAID 5 wins out for sequential access.

The only thing faster is a stripe set for sequential performance (same disks and member count). This is clearly stated on wiki's RAID page, as well as others.

I am getting it from 2011 from actual benchmarks and comparative tests. Where are you getting it from? For a read heavy usage, raid 5 will match raid 10. With writing it loses badly. What is the op going to be doing?
 
You mean fw400, fw800 is a lot faster since it can reach speeds of up to 80 MB/s. Using single disks or RAID can also make a big difference in speed. RAID is able to provide you with a lot more speed, especially with big files. Most NAS devices from manufacturers such as QNAP and Synology provide devices that are able to do RAID5 or even RAID10. A Mac Pro might be a better idea, internal disks are less troublesome than external ones, iSCSI and network shares (like you have with a NAS).

The old external disks can be used as a Time Machine disk. Very useful if you want to revert certain changes or need to restore a backup because you lost something.
No, I actually don't. I haven't seen any fw800 drive bench at 80 MB/s nor have I seen any achieve that in real life. Macperformanceguide claims around 50 to 60 MB/s writes and 60 to 70 MB/s reads. I would love to know what drive/enclosure he used.

Edit: Here is a benchmark that supports both our arguments. In my typical use I've never seen numbers like you've mentioned but it seems it is possible with a g-drive. The benches also show the numbers that I've mentioned.

* goes off to get one

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/usb-firewire-esata,2534-5.html
 
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I went

I am no PRO in fact I went with the advice given here.

I use mostly photoshop, final cut, and logic.... learning motion, color, etc.... going to be buying a new camera real soon, but wanted to get the machine.

Very happy with -

Hex 3.33
16Gb from OWC
1 60GB SSD for Apps and Boot from OWC
1 60GB SSD Scratch
2 TB Media Drive
2 ACD's

This rocks for me, again I am no pro, but I am flying with my projects and VERY HAPPY. As it has been said with your budget you may go with the 2.93's and the ability to add the extra RAM. I thought about it but I really did not need all that horsepower. I am set for a few years with this machine. It is FAST :) I can bump up RAM to 32 and I am sure in a year or two probably 64 :)

I bought 2 months ago, because I needed it. I lurk on here as an amateur but since I got the new machine my learning rate is through the roof.

You may need a bigger scratch drive, I DELETE a lot, just me and they way I am anal, but the set up above I think is pretty good for an average user that is working hard all day but is not a render farm. LOL BTW I did not RAID but I have that option at this point I am very happy but can always do it with a few drives. MANY MANY much smarter people on here about that if you need :)

This forum was a HUGE help in getting me the exact machine for what I needed. As I have said I think this is one of the best machines you can order today and have working in a week or so. I ordered all my stuff from OAC at the same time and it all shipped in with the MP coming in last. Took me all of about 2 hours to have everything up and blasting away. (About a week to get everything in.) Again thanks to this forum.

JB
 
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I am getting it from 2011 from actual benchmarks and comparative tests. Where are you getting it from? For a read heavy usage, raid 5 will match raid 10. With writing it loses badly. What is the op going to be doing?
Most of it from my own testing.

But take a look at the Sequential results on an ARC-1680ix16 (here).

When you take a look at the sequential write performance (larger stripe sizes in particular, which would be the way to configure the array for large files), 5 really picks up in write performance vs. 10.

For Writes (8x disks; 64K):
RAID 10 = ~425 - 430MB/s
RAID 5 = ~700 - 725MB/s

This isn't uncommon in my experience with Areca or ATTO's cards these days (1880 series is even faster, but it's also a newer card).
 
Most of it from my own testing.

But take a look at the Sequential results on an ARC-1680ix16 (here).

When you take a look at the sequential write performance (larger stripe sizes in particular, which would be the way to configure the array for large files), 5 really picks up in write performance vs. 10.

For Writes (8x disks; 64K):
RAID 10 = ~425 - 430MB/s
RAID 5 = ~700 - 725MB/s

This isn't uncommon in my experience with Areca or ATTO's cards these days (1880 series is even faster, but it's also a newer card).

Hmmm. Thanks for that. Makes for interesting reading. So it seems as though today's internal RAID cards perform better or the same in RAID 5 as in RAID 10 for both read and write. That's quite useful considering the extra capacity of RAID 5.

But from a point of view of external NAS, benchmarks show that RAID 10 still outperforms RAID 5. Would you agree?
 
Hmmm. Thanks for that. Makes for interesting reading. So it seems as though today's internal RAID cards perform better or the same in RAID 5 as in RAID 10 for both read and write. That's quite useful considering the extra capacity of RAID 5.
Yes.

Recent PCIe based cards have invalidated the old adage that 10 is always better than 10. First with sequential throughputs (reads are more similar than the difference between writes), and more recently with relational databases.

RAID 5 has become far more attractive than when BAARF got started (so long as it's done in a hardware solution), due to lower cost alone (fewer disks to meet capacity requirements at a bare minimum). But the faster write performance on such cards makes it even more attractive than 10 for sequential usage, and the costs are the proverbial icing on the cake.

There are still instances with relational databases that 10 can still be a better performer, but it depends on the specific usage and requirements, and if the budget will allow for it if it 10 is the faster way to go (i.e. additional disks to meet the capacity requirement vs. what 5 can do on fewer disks).

But from a point of view of external NAS, benchmarks show that RAID 10 still outperforms RAID 5. Would you agree?
I'm not a fan of inexpensive ready-made NAS units, as some are software based (5 may be listed in the specifications, but is a mistake due to the lack of a solution to the write hole issue associated with parity based arrays). 10 would be the only way to go on such units. They're also slow. For similar money, you can build one (even a SAN) on a Linux based system that's faster and sufficiently reliable (i.e. software based and use the ZFS file system to build Z-RAID/Z-RAID2). The "cost" of course, is self-support when something goes wrong. But support from Data Robotics isn't that great either, so it could be considered a wash (warranty support may still be an advantage to a cheap ready-made NAS).

There are also inexpensive hardware controller chips (i.e. Oxford/PLX, JMicron,...), but they're not built for speed (found in some NAS units, and some multi-disk enclosures such as the Qx2 from OWC <uses an Oxford 936>). For these, they'd need to be tested (hopefully, there's a review that tested the performance on all supported levels) in order to make a decision that's not blind (based on a few specs and cost alone, and an unknown otherwise).

In such units though, the likelihood of 10 being faster than 5 (ignoring capacity) is much higher than 5. RAID 5 still has the advantage of capacity though (i.e. using 4x 3TB disks, 10 = 6TB usable, 5 = 9TB usable). So it still comes down to trying to balance performance, capacity, and cost. Always a compromise... :rolleyes: :p
 
No, I actually don't. I haven't seen any fw800 drive bench at 80 MB/s nor have I seen any achieve that in real life. Macperformanceguide claims around 50 to 60 MB/s writes and 60 to 70 MB/s reads. I would love to know what drive/enclosure he used.
That would be following what I said "up to 80 MB/s" (80 being the max). I think in reality 60~70 MB/s is what you'd see mostly but it also depends on the disk being used. The smaller laptop disks will not likely exceed the 40 MB/s but an ordinary 3,5" desktop disk can (the WD Black Caviar in the Mac Pro is capable of doing 125 MB/s). Those are all single disk, when using RAID this obviously will be higher making it easier to saturate the fw800 bus and thus reaching the max speed it offers. An ssd will do the same.

Edit: Here is a benchmark that supports both our arguments. In my typical use I've never seen numbers like you've mentioned but it seems it is possible with a g-drive. The benches also show the numbers that I've mentioned.

* goes off to get one

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/usb-firewire-esata,2534-5.html
Yeps, they clearly show what you can expect from the various protocols. Nice comparison :)

@nanofrog: Tweaking RAID is a very essential part because it can make a huge difference in performance. Can you tell us a bit more about the settings, disks, etc. you're using and how you benchmark? That will make it easier to compare.
 
@nanofrog: Tweaking RAID is a very essential part because it can make a huge difference in performance. Can you tell us a bit more about the settings, disks, etc. you're using and how you benchmark? That will make it easier to compare.
Once you've chosen the array level, you tweak the stripe size to fit the usage (i.e. large stripes for large sequential files, which video editing/animation applications generate). Since such usage produces files over 1MB, you set the stripe size to the max limit, which should be at least 128K on cards from 2006, and they can be larger on SAS versions of newer vintage).

As per benchmarking programs, I tend to work under Windows more than other OS's, so I use HD Tune and more than anything as I like seeing the graphs to look for unusual behavior (there's options under Windows, such as ATTO benchmark, and I do run them from time to time). The fact there's a free version is nice too. :D There's options under Linux as well. Under OS X, AJA is about it for 3rd party benchmark applications.
 
Have you ever tried any of the trace-based benchmarks?
Yes I have.

But it's more accurate to compare results of previous configurations I've tested rather than using trace based (or tests I know exactly what was done), as it's more relevant to a given usage pattern (i.e. pointless to compare relational database usage to sequential throughput usage).
 
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