Is this Mac Pro worth investing? Should i go Mac Pro?

[finarfinius]

Hi

I am considering to buy an
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/...-twelve-core-2.4-mid-2012-westmere-specs.html

2x 6 Core Xeon E5645
56 GB RAM
HDD 640 GB,
VGA ATI Radeon 1024 MB
mouse + keyboard

for 1000 Eur

I am an iOS and macOS soft. dev.

- i would to use the NVMe SSD for booting, but still not sure if possible, but also having worries that Apple will drop support and not allowing to use newer OS with this

- i love the idea of customization, which is so missing in todays products

- also a little worry is that the single core speed is not that great (multi is great even for today)

 

[Razzerman]

A thousand euros is quite a lot of cash for such an old machine. Personally, I'd wait for the upcoming next generation Mac Pro (hopefully sometime in 2019).

 

[verdejt]

Where are you getting it from? I would search on eBay and see what is out there. eBay in the US has similar machines with more RAM and larger hard drives for a lot less or maybe a little more (less than 200 euro).If you buy one make sure it's a 5,1 model usually mid 2010 and newer.
I personally wouldn't wait for new MacPro to be released. Sure the 5,1 series will have maybe one more software update after Mojave but who knows. Right now the only stopping point for Mojave was the graphics cards needing Metal Support. I think it will be a couple more years before another MacPro is released due to the fact Apple seems to be concentrating on the Pro series of iPads and Mini's. I think their future for the MacPro is based on something like a Mac Mini with a thunderbolt add-on unit with a faster GPU and such.
Upgrading the MacPro 5,1 is pretty easy and processor upgrades are pretty straightforward. With the release of the new firmware 140.0.0.0.0 which support NVME native booting and a host of add-on USB3.0 cards and even Bluetooth 4.x upgrades this machine is still quite the powerhouse. The only thing missing is Thunderbolt but I read somewhere someone is working on an add-on card for it as well.
The choice is yours get one now and upgrade it and get maybe 3 or 4 years out of it (due to MacOS updates) which is all speculation on if it will be continued to be supported. Or you can wait for who knows how long before Apple decides on a true MacPro replacement.
Personally I would pull the trigger and get a 5,1 MacPro. I got mine for about 600 dollars US or 525 Euros. Mine is a mid 2010 5,1 dual 2.4 Ghz quad core processors, 32gb of Ram and 240Gb SSD with a Superdrive DVD burner. I purchased a metal capable 2gb Video card for about 250 USD so all in all about 800 dollars. I sold the video card that came with it for 50 dollars. Similar machines are going for about 1700 dollars USD or about 1500 euro.

 

[octoviaa]

Hi

I am considering to buy an
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/...-twelve-core-2.4-mid-2012-westmere-specs.html

2x 6 Core Xeon E5645
56 GB RAM
HDD 640 GB,
VGA ATI Radeon 1024 MB
mouse + keyboard

for 1000 Eur

I am an iOS and macOS soft. dev.

- i would to use the NVMe SSD for booting, but still not sure if possible, but also having worries that Apple will drop support and not allowing to use newer OS with this

- i love the idea of customization, which is so missing in todays products

- also a little worry is that the single core speed is not that great (multi is great even for today)

Me too like the idea of the customisation (that's why I bought mine :-D).

If having the latest OS is important for you then I think this is the biggest risk and you better think hard whether to spend money on 5,1.

BTW If you want to install Mojave you need to buy a METAL capable GPU because Mojave require METAL capable GPU and 5770 is not METAL capable.

You can find guides below for cMP - Mojave:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mp5-1-what-you-have-to-do-to-upgrade-to-mojave.2142418/

Let's try to analyse a little bit more regarding the upgradability / customisation:

Upgradability (customisation):
1. Processor - this is relatively easy with 5,1 and quite affordable, I upgrade from E5620 to X5675 cost me ~50 USD for 2 CPUs - I find AliExpress is cheaper than eBay for CPU so please do compare.
2. RAM - also easy, you'll have plenty of affordable options.
3. Storage - easy, though if you want NVMe, you'll have to look for PCIe card but luckily the latest bootROM does support booting from NVMe. You can find info here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/blade-ssds-nvme-ahci.2146725/
4. GPU, or any other peripheral utilising the PCIe slot -> this is tricky, as it comes down to 'Finding the device which is supported by OSX' this mean your options is not as many as Windows / PC.

You can find the 'upgrade thread' for cMP here:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-5-1-upgrade-guide-sticky-discussion.2099092/

If I were you I would seriously consider Mac Mini as it is guaranty will be supported by the latest OS at least for the next 5 to 7 years and for EUR ~1K you'll be able to get a 3.06 6-Core with 256 GB SSD.

Let's see how 'upgradable' the Mac Mini is:
1. CPU - not upgradable (but from experience I think CPU won't be much of a problem, heck I even use ~8 years old CPU)
2. RAM - surprisingly it is upgradable (2 SLOT SODIMM)
3. GPU - internal is not upgradable but you can use eGPU so I would say it is expandable
4. Storage - internal is not upgradable but then with 4 x TB 3 (USB-C) + 2 USB 3 I think you're pretty safe.

As you can see I think Mac Mini is quite expandable with upgradable RAM and 4 x TB3 + 2 USB 3.
it is even more attractive if you don't need a powerful GPU, even if you do at least you've got option with eGPU.

Oh BTW, you do know the Mac Mini will be much more power efficient right ?

I think Xcode will utilise multi core (but you're correct the single core performance is low by today standard but low doesn't necessarily means in-adequate), check below article:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/best-hardware-build-swift-what-you-might-think-jacek-suliga

As a software developer I think you know parallelism is a not an easy subject, you would be familiar with thread-contention issue, I think in general 4 threads is the sweet spot anything more than that the performance advantage (if any) will start to go down until the thread-contention issue kicks-in and the performance start to drop.

12 Core (24 Threads) for software development is probably overkill (but hey who care - I could utilise the extra core for VM and dockers (talking to myself)).

FYI, total cost of my 5,1 with extra budget for 500GB SSD + GTX 680 4GB + 56 GB RAM + 2 CPU X5675 is about 700 EUR (30% less than yours with more perks).

And yes I'm having fun upgrading the CPU and flashing the GTX (thanks for tsialex, hp98, Dr. Stealth, flor!an and others who help provide information in the forum).

I think 5,1 is a good machine and probably the last good one ever produced by APPLE.

a quote 'This is an ode to the best computer ever made, the classic Mac Pro.' from:
https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2018/05/07/definitive-mac-pro-upgrade-guide.html


My suggestion to you: Strongly consider Mac mini, but of course if you think UER 1K is worth for the fun of 'tinkering' then welcome to the cMP club and let the fun adventure begin .

 

[kohlson]

If I were a software developer, and I am not, I would want something newer than this. Much newer. If I were a Mac software developer, and I'm not, and I went to work for a company and they said "here's your Mac" and it was an 8-year-old - no longer supported by Apple - Mac, I would think the company was not serious about Mac OS software development.
These things are on life support. Consider an iMac or a Mini.

 

[verdejt]

I would steer clear of the larger iMac machines. They have a huge heat problem. I had a 2010 27" iMac that burned out the video card and after talking to a few people with the larger iMacs and the local certified Apple repair shop seems to be a common problem. The larger iMacs get really hot and cook the GPU. I have read where the new iMac Pro has heat issues as well.
For what it's worth new isn't always better. Look at the 2013 MacPro which I have read has issues of its own. I'm just sad I didn't get the MacPro before buying my 2010 27" iMac. All in all I think the cMP will continue to be supported by software for about 3 or 4 more years then probably be stopped there. Hopefully by then Apple has something new and just as good at the cMP design.

 

[AlexMaximus]

Hi

I am considering to buy an
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/...-twelve-core-2.4-mid-2012-westmere-specs.html

2x 6 Core Xeon E5645
56 GB RAM
HDD 640 GB,
VGA ATI Radeon 1024 MB
mouse + keyboard

for 1000 Eur

I am an iOS and macOS soft. dev.

- i would to use the NVMe SSD for booting, but still not sure if possible, but also having worries that Apple will drop support and not allowing to use newer OS with this

- i love the idea of customization, which is so missing in todays products

- also a little worry is that the single core speed is not that great (multi is great even for today)

I have just finished my Christmas upgrade project today. Sold my Nvidia and replaced it with a Vega 64.
Added dual SSD NVMe boot capability with an I/O Crest card and installed Mojave 10.14.2 to have Dark mode after installing the Pixlas mod cable to power it.
What can I say, it's really cool to have the same GPU as the 5500$ iMacPro. You can't do that with the trash can, you can't do that with the iMac or the Mac Mini. If you are on a budget the will be to small for the all new Mac Pro 7.1 in 2019, I think its still good option if you can find the right machine (mint) for the right price and then upgrade the hell out of it.

The 5.1 is till this day the best computer I ever used. Mojave will most likely the last MacOS on this machine, so on this side, you will be limited. But for the next three years, it will do for sure. To enter the game that late is somewhat questionable, because of
the approaching end of life. I think it really depends. For hobby and semi-professionals, the 5.1 is still the very best option.
As others stated, I do not trust the fully enclosed iMac because of some damage/repair events at a good friend of mine.

 

[pl1984]

I personally wouldn't wait for new MacPro to be released. Sure the 5,1 series will have maybe one more software update after Mojave but who knows. Right now the only stopping point for Mojave was the graphics cards needing Metal Support. I think it will be a couple more years before another MacPro is released due to the fact Apple seems to be concentrating on the Pro series of iPads and Mini's. I think their future for the MacPro is based on something like a Mac Mini with a thunderbolt add-on unit with a faster GPU and such.

I believe Apple has indicated the new Mac Pro would be available sometime in 2019...which means we have slightly over a year before we see it on 12/31/2019.

 

[deconstruct60]

Hi

I am considering to buy an
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/...-twelve-core-2.4-mid-2012-westmere-specs.html

An "investment" as in something that will appreciate in value? Simply No.

An capital cost outlay that will enables some value as it rapidly depreciates. A highly contextual maybe.

I am an iOS and macOS soft. dev.

The Mac Pro should have some value for a while in tracking current and older builds of MacOS ( and iOS in older simulators ...i.e., older XCode instances ). If the apps you work on span a relatively broad range of macOS/iOS version then it has upside even if it became a secondary "build cloud / Build QA could " system.

- i would to use the NVMe SSD for booting, but still not sure if possible, but also having worries that Apple will drop support and not allowing to use newer OS with this

The support drop is coming . If Apple hadn't screwed up the project management on the next Mac it probably would be even more clearly overly "dead" .

2010 and 2009 models are on the vintage/obsolete list (respectively). The 2012 variant is basically the same at the 2010. It is extremely probably that at some point in 2019 they will toss that at least onto the vintage list also. Once products hit the "technically obsolete " stage then they are highly likely t o loose macOS upgrades. Occasionally, there are some 12 month "round up" reprieves for some systems but within 2+1 years of hitting even Vintage status about everything is dried up.

Oct-Dec 2013 was when the 2012 model was dropped from manufacture/sale. 7+2012 is 2019. Some folks will hand wave and say 2013 + 7 is 2020.... the handwave aspect of that is that the 2012 is really any fundalmentally different from the 2010. It really isn't. Far more so it is a farce that Apple is using to provide a stopgap for a grossly delayed suitable product upgrade for a subset of the Mac Pro user base. If Apple has completely screwed up beyond belief and will be sliding in 2020 then perhaps they wave their hands on the these classic Mac Pro, with an even bigger kludged upgrade, but far more likely they have seen their last macOS upgrade. ( It is now relatively kludged now anyway with Filevault being non function "feature" in 10.14 Mojave. )


For those who have already have a Mac Pro 2010-2012 sunk cost then "circling the airport" is cheaper on an older model. But it is questionable to buy something that is about to go onto the obsolete list if your software development stack ( XCode , debugger, etc.) needs to keep leading edge version compatibility for basic builds.

Folks who have command line "Unix" stuff (python , bash , etc.) or java server maybe. File/QA server maybe (which gets off the macOS upgrade train).... maybe. For Bleeding edge macOS/iOS development though, this is a highly dubious choice to sink substantive new money into as a single primary workstation solution.

When these are all tossed on to the obsolete list and macOS upgrades terminated then the used resales prices on these will drop. So probably within a year your $1,000 euro system will turn into something worth substantively less. As an 'investment" is pretty much doomed as something that will retain (or grow) value.


The CPU upgrades are dirt cheap because these are used , obsolete parts ( Intel doesn't sell/support anymore else. ).

- also a little worry is that the single core speed is not that great (multi is great even for today)

If use Virtual machines in a significant way, a bigger choke point is the relatively ancient virtualization support. There is a large gap in performance between now and then when are in system code that will leverage it. ( it isn't bad 100% of the time because user level code , same slower stuff. ).



If this 1,000 euro represents a capital budget that is end of the year "blow it or loose it' kind of expenditure then fine. If another 2-4K is coming in 2019 - first half 2020, then you could buy something else later.

If this is the 1-1.5K euro expenditure for the next 2-3 years then it probably won't keep you up to date over that whole period.
[doublepost=1545875512][/doublepost]

I believe Apple has indicated the new Mac Pro would be available sometime in 2019...which means we have slightly over a year before we see it on 12/31/2019.

Apple said AirPower would be a 2018 product. Looks like that isn't going to happen.

If the original plan was aiming at late 2019 in the first place then sliding into 2020 for real availability has some substantive possibility to it. If they were selecting parts off of a voodoo, power point slides then those parts may not show up until past the deadline that "magical" roadmaps showed 18+ months ago.

If there is a real, current need for an additional (or new) system at this point I wouldn't wait nearly a year. If what you have actually fills the needs (and this is more of a 'want' than critical functional requirement) then kicking the can for another 12+ months is fine. But under resourced for 12+ months is doubtful there is an upside offset for the "pain" for limping through for that long. A 1,000 euros isn't going to cover the next Mac Pro . ( it probably won't be below $2.5K of the 2010-2012 entry points and likely a bit higher). The 2013 models might sink that low by then in the refurb/warranty used markets.

I suspect you'll 'see' the next Mac Pro before get to Q4 2019. Perhaps won't be able to buy one before then, but the 'see' has a decent chance of being done before then ( Apple has pictures of the AirPower). Before Apple dumps the 2012 onto the vintage list I suspect they show a picture of what they would like those folks to trade up for. Also the fact that the systems are being cut off from macOS updates.

 

[finarfinius]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the opinions and Intel on this

I want to say, that since i did seen the case and system design of a Mac Pro i totally loved it... having this maxed out and customized is smth. like a boys dream...

Also to note, that i'm seeking a home working unit (as because of my newborn kid i want to work more from home) (to my office i bought a maxed out iMac 5k 2017, which i'm more than satisfied about (and the CPU is upgradable !))... also i thought about having some game setup using windows (but to be honest i don't have time for games anymore, again more like a boys wish)

So i started lurking into the 5.1... but as i realized (also thanks to this thread), it's more than an inner boys craving than a right choice

The need for having a latest OS is certainly a top priority... although i think that there may be nothing preventing to run later macOS on these machines (ok, the metal card was reasonable), there is certainly a doubt... they could possibly place some requirement on the CPU, which would mean dead (again, this wouldn't make much sense, but Apple is Apple, and they go for profit more aggressive each year)

So this doubt is the biggest issue (maybe it will run macOS 10.20 fine and maybe it won't run macOS 10.15, because Apple will find smth. to prevent this)

in theory these machines could support 192 GB of RAM which is a great point for me (as everything today eats so much RAM (would say 16GB is bare low min.))... the Pro RAM is slower, but capacity is more important...

On the side of the CPU, you can upgrade dirty cheap, but even with the best supported Xeon, the single core performance is average today and may get obsolete fast... the multi-core is fine, but again having 24 threads isn't smth. i think i will utilize, having less and more powerful threads is a better general option for a dev., again looks like the multi-core performance in newer models is even on a sharper rise then single core performance (thanks the Intel vs. AMD war)

So if you had a MacPro previously, i think it's fine to max it with the latest VGA and pimp it... but may not the best option for today's buy

I mean i can afford to waste 1k for the pleasure of boys dream, but this doesn't mean i should... maybe i was looking more for an excuse to justify my inner craving than looking at the reasonable arguments

Giving it a thought i'm currently deciding between the Mac Mini and iMac 21

- i want to have a lower cost (Apple style), up-gradable machine...

The iMac 21

-> you can upgrade CPU!, RAM (up to 64GB (Apple indicates max 32GB)), SSD / drive
-> has a dedicated GPU

• Intel Quad-Core i5 3.0GHz, Turbo Boost 3.5GHz
• 8GB RAM 2400MHz
• 1TB SerialATA 5400 ot./min.
• Radeon Pro 555, 2GB VRAM
  
• Apple Magic Keyboard
• Apple Magic Trackpad 2 Silver

1560 Eur

• has a monitor, even if you don't need one ()
  
• cannot be transported that easy than the Mini (it's a desktop, but anyway)

Mac Mini

• 3.0GHz 6-Core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost up to 4.1GHz
• 8GB pamäť 2666MHz DDR4
• 256GB SSD

1250 Eur

And if you add the Keyboard and Trackpad, 99 + 149 = 250 Eur extra (of boy Apple Apple)

this brings us to 1500 Eur

• CPU cannot be upgraded
• No monitor (even the 21 is a little smaller, but still 4k)
  
• No dedicated VGA

So for me currently it looks like the best option is to go with iMac 21 and upgrade it over time... the only advantage the Mini has, is it's size, making it even portable when needed

Apple could made the CPU in the Mini swap-able, without satisfying anything than profits, and than the Mini would be a great choice (or if the mini would cost again mini)... but i don't expect this to happen in future either

Was also considering a Hackintosh for 1/2 price and same performance, but not sure if i want to deal with the uncertainty of the setup... and the thought of working on a Hackintosh is quite sore and strange

Waiting for the next Pro (and maybe to have my office Mac into my home and the new pro as my Office Mac)... is a less consideration for me to be hones, as i don't expect Apple to make a true user machine, than an 8k+ money harvester

Looking for a used 21 2017, may yeld even better around 1100 - 1300

 

[Coyote2006]

I went a similar way. My 5,1 died and I bought one here on a local Swiss ebay-like online store for just $300 and moved all of the still working parts into the "new" 5,1.

Now I have:

3.33 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 4095 MB
1 TB SSD 970 EVO as boot drive
2 x 4TB WD backup HDD
1 x 1 TB SSD as macOS clone drive
1 x 512 GB SSD as additional data drive (both connected with a $15 PCIe card)
Just looking for an additinal USD 3 card.

I've spent $800 for this configuration so far and I am very happy with it. I hope it will work until the new MacrPro comes out.

If you can start with some hardware to reuse, a cheap MacPro isn't a bad investment. If you don't have GPU or a faster CPU already at hand, you might better go with a MacMini or a retina iMac.

 

[pl1984]

Apple said AirPower would be a 2018 product. Looks like that isn't going to happen.

If the original plan was aiming at late 2019 in the first place then sliding into 2020 for real availability has some substantive possibility to it. If they were selecting parts off of a voodoo, power point slides then those parts may not show up until past the deadline that "magical" roadmaps showed 18+ months ago.

I agree it could slip past 2019 to which I say: If it does then every last person who relies on such a system should immediately begin their migration plans to another platform. It would demonstrate Apple is either too incompetent or does not care about the professional market.

 

[mindcomputing]

Had some time over the Christmas to migrate my wifes cMP to Mojave

She is a freelancing art director and I also use the machine for digital photo / - printing / video editing
She bought the machine from the german Apple Store refurbished site with two 1TB HDDs and 6x1GB RAM back in 2009
None of the upgrades where exponentially expensive and the MacPro still hold up great!


Specs:
Mac Pro 4,1 flashed to 5,1 bootrom 140.0.0.0
Apple Cinema LED Display 27"
GPU Saphhire RX 580 Nitro+ SE for $ 170 USD
Dual Xeon X5670 12 x 2,93GHz ($ 80 USD cost with Heatspreaders still on, brasswasher and silicone thermal pad installation)
8x8GB 64GB DDR3 ECC REG Samsung RAM (cheap ram of a old HP Server paid 80 USD)
SSD 800GB Intel DC S3500 Series (cheap cache SSD of a Server) in a SSD 2.5" mounting blade OWC
HDD 2TB Western Digital WD Black 2TB
HDD 8TB Seagate Archive HDD v2 SATA
USB PCIe 4x USB3.0 Inateck Expansion Card (30 USD)
Wifi AC Bluetooth BCM94360CD (20 USD)

planing to upgrade soon
HighPoint 7101A and 2x Crucial P1 SSD 1TB, M.2 RAID0 as bootable if its compatible
6x16GB RAM on the cheap or even 32GB modules?
10GBit Ethernet
Bluetooth Antenna rewiring due to bad connection (Wifi AC is flawless)

 

[ArminAlbz]

Had some time over the Christmas to migrate my wifes cMP to Mojave

She is a freelancing art director and I also use the machine for digital photo / - printing / video editing
She bought the machine from the german Apple Store refurbished site with two 1TB HDDs and 6x1GB RAM back in 2009
None of the upgrades where exponentially expensive and the MacPro still hold up great!


Specs:
Mac Pro 4,1 flashed to 5,1 bootrom 140.0.0.0
Apple Cinema LED Display 27"
GPU Saphhire RX 580 Nitro+ SE for $ 170 USD
Dual Xeon X5670 12 x 2,93GHz ($ 80 USD cost with Heatspreaders still on, brasswasher and silicone thermal pad installation)
8x8GB 64GB DDR3 ECC REG Samsung RAM (cheap ram of a old HP Server paid 80 USD)
SSD 800GB Intel DC S3500 Series (cheap cache SSD of a Server) in a SSD 2.5" mounting blade OWC
HDD 2TB Western Digital WD Black 2TB
HDD 8TB Seagate Archive HDD v2 SATA
USB PCIe 4x USB3.0 Inateck Expansion Card (30 USD)
Wifi AC Bluetooth BCM94360CD (20 USD)

planing to upgrade soon
HighPoint 7101A and 2x Crucial P1 SSD 1TB, M.2 RAID0 as bootable if its compatible
6x16GB RAM on the cheap or even 32GB modules?
10GBit Ethernet
Bluetooth Antenna rewiring due to bad connection (Wifi AC is flawless)

----------------

Hello!
How r you? i need help with installing high sierra, how you get the boot room 140.0.0.0? mac pro flashed to 5,1. boot room MP51.0084.B00: error(png) - i can install mac os sierra or capitan without problems-

 

[deconstruct60]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the opinions and Intel on this

I want to say, that since i did seen the case and system design of a Mac Pro i totally loved it... having this maxed out and customized is smth. like a boys dream...

Also to note, that i'm seeking a home working unit (as because of my newborn kid i want to work more from home) (to my office i bought a maxed out iMac 5k 2017, which i'm more than satisfied about (and the CPU is upgradable !))...
....

The iMac 21
....

• Intel Quad-Core i5 3.0GHz, Turbo Boost 3.5GHz
• 8GB RAM 2400MHz
• 1TB SerialATA 5400 ot./min.
• Radeon Pro 555, 2GB VRAM
  
• Apple Magic Keyboard
• Apple Magic Trackpad 2 Silver

1560 Eur
....

There is going to be a big performance gap between that iMac 5K with probably a SSD (since 'maxed out' ) and a lowly 1TB HDD drive. Especially for systems using APFS. The new Mac Mini does have this iMac gapped on I/O performance by a significant amount.

Looking for a used 21 2017, may yeld even better around 1100 - 1300

Leveraging the used discount to move up to a 256GB SSD would be reasonable. Or adding an external SSD or paying for a 2.5" SSD internal drive upgrade ( non simple upgrade as means have to detach screen ).

Waiting for the next Pro (and maybe to have my office Mac into my home and the new pro as my Office Mac)... is a less consideration for me to be hones,

If swapping office/home is an option then a $1,000 Mac Pro that you don't use every day would be a decent stopgap for a couple of years. A highly often turned off, back-up system that are not really using much, then spending over 1K for that probably isn't the better move.

as i don't expect Apple to make a true user machine, than an 8k+ money harvester

I think it is doubtful Apple will put the generally usable Mac Pro systems in a price range that high. I'm sure you'll be able to buy one that cost that (and more). But if the performance of your 5K iMac is more than adequate, Mac Pro price doesn't necessarily need to raise that high. A 14 core iMac Pro is about $6.6K . Minus a 5K screen and need to be about 2K above that mark is exceedingly slim.

I don't except every major component to be replaceable with generic components, but pretty good likelihood there will be some. ( just not the boot drive or the primary display GPU). Apple making a new Mac Pro with approximately the same exact major properties in the upgrade/update space as the iMac Pro ( putting aside the screen) doesn't make much sense.
[doublepost=1545937578][/doublepost]

...
The need for having a latest OS is certainly a top priority... although i think that there may be nothing preventing to run later macOS on these machines (ok, the metal card was reasonable), there is certainly a doubt... they could possibly place some requirement on the CPU, which would mean dead (again, this wouldn't make much sense, but Apple is Apple, and they go for profit more aggressive each year)

These relatively ancient CPUs don't have AVX. It is entirely reasonable that Apple could move to having AVX present as being mandatory for some basic system libraries. Encryption support is another probable category. Future Meltdown/Spectre like security holes that primarily only exist in older implementations ..... same thing.

When Apple has dropped every other mac pre-2013-14 off the list then they'll make more mandates in the basic core for CPUs after that era. ( the Mac Pro 2013 will be lingering around but there are gaps between the 2010 era CPUs and 2013 ones. And after a relatively short while the MP 2013 is be just as big of a backward boat anchor drag on support costs as the 2010-2012 ones are now. ).

I suspect there will be hacks introduced that "happen to work" when don't touch X, Y, or Z system library or use the A, B, or C application. However, that is a dubious context to do software development in. Folks who have narrow corner case apps and the system is a primarily running just stuck in time bubble apps that may work, but that isn't what the primary app user base is running as an OS.

 

[deconstruct60]

I agree it could slip past 2019 to which I say: If it does then every last person who relies on such a system should immediately begin their migration plans to another platform. It would demonstrate Apple is either too incompetent or does not care about the professional market.

I wouldn't characterize it as "does not care". It is probably more of a mismatch between expected upgrade cycles. If Apple moves to a cycle where they upgrade the Mac Pro every 4-5 years and there is a customer base that is largely targeting every 5-7 years then there is a decent amount of overlap. The matching pool will likely shrink over time ( as timing cycles can shift as get more/less work or Apple has more/less Mac systems to get to market).

If they repetitively target "pie in he sky" parts during active upgrade cycle then the Mac Pro is more of a hobby product. Short term timeliness isn't a focus issue. This thread with a couple of examples of folks updating approaching 10 year old systems is indicative that customers are part of the cycle time expansion also. If Apple puts a modest number of empty upgrade slots/sockets into the next Mac Pro version then other folks in the future could so the same thing in year 2-4 of their ownership ( put in new components to fill the long cycle till next upgrade ).

For folks who are on 3-4 year cycle times and Apple is on an implied 4-5 year cycle, then they should migrate to something with a closer and/or easier to match upgrade cycles. That too will shrink the pool. But "everybody" doesn't have to get out. Everyone won't be able to synchronize on Apple's table, but some will.


Where Apple prices this new Mac Pro will also make a significant difference. If the base price jumps $1,500-2,000 then that is about just as long term "bad news" for a viable product base as mushy upgrade cycle lengths.

Apple primarily needs to pick a cycle time and if it is longer than 12-20 months then communicate that it will be longer than that ( in some somewhat specific range of time). For folks who find that reasonable will probably stay. The ones that don't will probably go. Apple's communication baseline is hooked to "doing" rather than talking. If they are going to take regular, long, Rip van Winkle naps then they need o start to communicate that more explicitly so folks can plan accordingly.

 

[racer]

Of course it’s a risk buying a 2009-2010 computer in 2019 in regards to it receiving future OS updates.

I purchased my first 4,1 last month to replace my macOS obsolete 2011 iMac.

For my working environment I am very happy with my choice.

With the new macOS only six months away, why are we almost certain that the 2009-2010 MacPros will be obsolete?

It could certainly happen, there is no doubt, but I would suggest the firmware support upgrades Apple has provided (even in Mojave) don’t seem to point to this.

As metal compliance being a hurdle that put a lot of the older macs out of commission regarding os updates, I personally wouldn’t think Apple will go for another round of obsolescence demanding something like a T2 or a certain base CPU for the next macOS update.

 

[StellarVixen]

T2 is too young to be the minimum requirement for next Mac OS.

Maybe they drop 2012 models next year. But if the next Mac OS become more of something like High Sierra was to Sierra, then they will not drop any Macs.

 

[deconstruct60]

....
With the new macOS only six months away, why are we almost certain that the 2009-2010 MacPros will be obsolete?

Because Apple explicitly publishes a list and the formula behind getting on the list.

Apple Vintage and Hardware list https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624

The Mac Pro 2009 is explicitly listed in the obsolete (everywhere) section.
the Mac Pro 2010 is in the Vintage section ( obsolete some places but not quite everywhere yet).

If Apple treats the 2012 as a "cease to manufacture" point for the 2010 then 2012 + 7 = 2019. It is already on the Vintage list. Moving to the Obsolete list would simply be the next step. That is extremely likely to happen next year. Also highly likely is that the 2012 will go at least go onto the Vintage list. So all three variants of that same basic system will be on that page. That does not represent low risk at all.

There are corner cases with the event synchronization of going onto the full Obsolete list but a full 12 months after on that list systems get dropped at about a 100% rate. Some folks try to promote the notion that obsolete hardware still opens window for software support. For free (no cost) ... that is rare. And extremely rare for large support operations for zero revenue. There are also cases where stuff goes into software desupport when it is just one the Vintage list. ( can depend on limitations baked into the original system which picked up pragmatically older parts even at launch. )

Apple's formula has a +/- 2 years band to handle some adapting to stuff happening but generally at 7 years they are maxxed out.

Now some folks will try to rationalize that the 2012 end date was in 2013 to 2013 + 7 and therefore 2020 . That is a risky bet. 2012 really wasn't "new". It is the same model with different parts and most a different "timestamp". In fact in late June 2012 folks filed a FTC complaint and made them take the "new" marker off the 2012 model in the online store. The argument was that it wasn't really 'new'. Apple can cut things off before 7 years. They did for PPC hardware. Making that "same model different timespace" mirage go away would be an even simpler instance.

All the more if they have a new Mac Pro prepped for release ( or in release). When the next Mac Pro comes, Apple will probably slam the door on these two generation back models.

If Apple even more bungles getting a new Mac Pro out the door and it is sliding to 2020. Then there is a chance they'll extend the clock on the 2012 (and implicitly 2010) models to cover that slide. But the grace period extension is probably primarily based on the depth of their screw up on the new system; not some inherent property of the 2010 model.

It could certainly happen, there is no doubt, but I would suggest the firmware support upgrades Apple has provided (even in Mojave) don’t seem to point to this.

Yes it does point to that. First, those firmware updates came late. They didn't come with the beta release they came after the beta release. So the Mac Pro 2010 and 2012 were not 'first class' targets of the Mojave release. Otherwise they would have released on time in the main mix. That is more indicative that Apple cobbled together some kludge because this really wasn't in the primary planning when 10.14 was initially speced out. Otherwise they would have assigned resources so it got done on time. They didn't.

Even after they finished they changed the "feature set" so it complete. ( can't use Filevault is now a "complete" Mac in the Mac Pro special case. ). Again this points to a kludge.

The primary driver is more likely their screw up on getting a new Mac Pro the door. If a large chunk of their remaining target market are circling the airport on 2010-2012 (or 2009 moddded to 2010) then Apple needs to provide some path for them to continue to circle the airport. If Apple pushes more of them off to buying systems that are supported by someone else it will be hard to get them back over the next couple of years.

For now this expanding list of kludge and "happens to work" is being given the OK because Apple doesn't have an alternative yet. The Mac Pro 2013 is in almost just as bad of shape but technically the "clock" isn't running on it. (And even if Apple does get the older Mac Pro dropped they'll then have yet another older than norms system hanging around.)

As metal compliance being a hurdle that put a lot of the older macs out of commission regarding os updates, I personally wouldn’t think Apple will go for another round of obsolescence demanding something like a T2 or a certain base CPU for the next macOS update.

The T2 is a non issue. The old Mac Pros don't even work with Filevault while all newer Mac without a T2 do. T2 and Metal aren't the only thing. AVX is missing. Intel bug fixes wlll probably be missing in a year or so. etc etc. The tech is 10 years old. It is in the process of being dropped. The clock is running and the process has already started.

 

[AlexMaximus]

Because Apple explicitly publishes a list and the formula behind getting on the list.

Apple Vintage and Hardware list https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624

The Mac Pro 2009 is explicitly listed in the obsolete (everywhere) section.
the Mac Pro 2010 is in the Vintage section ( obsolete some places but not quite everywhere yet).

If Apple treats the 2012 as a "cease to manufacture" point for the 2010 then 2012 + 7 = 2019. It is already on the Vintage list. Moving to the Obsolete list would simply be the next step. That is extremely likely to happen next year. Also highly likely is that the 2012 will go at least go onto the Vintage list. So all three variants of that same basic system will be on that page. That does not represent low risk at all.

There are corner cases with the event synchronization of going onto the full Obsolete list but a full 12 months after on that list systems get dropped at about a 100% rate. Some folks try to promote the notion that obsolete hardware still opens window for software support. For free (no cost) ... that is rare. And extremely rare for large support operations for zero revenue. There are also cases where stuff goes into software desupport when it is just one the Vintage list. ( can depend on limitations baked into the original system which picked up pragmatically older parts even at launch. )

Apple's formula has a +/- 2 years band to handle some adapting to stuff happening but generally at 7 years they are maxxed out.

Now some folks will try to rationalize that the 2012 end date was in 2013 to 2013 + 7 and therefore 2020 . That is a risky bet. 2012 really wasn't "new". It is the same model with different parts and most a different "timestamp". In fact in late June 2012 folks filed a FTC complaint and made them take the "new" marker off the 2012 model in the online store. The argument was that it wasn't really 'new'. Apple can cut things off before 7 years. They did for PPC hardware. Making that "same model different timespace" mirage go away would be an even simpler instance.

All the more if they have a new Mac Pro prepped for release ( or in release). When the next Mac Pro comes, Apple will probably slam the door on these two generation back models.

If Apple even more bungles getting a new Mac Pro out the door and it is sliding to 2020. Then there is a chance they'll extend the clock on the 2012 (and implicitly 2010) models to cover that slide. But the grace period extension is probably primarily based on the depth of their screw up on the new system; not some inherent property of the 2010 model.




Yes it does point to that. First, those firmware updates came late. They didn't come with the beta release they came after the beta release. So the Mac Pro 2010 and 2012 were not 'first class' targets of the Mojave release. Otherwise they would have released on time in the main mix. That is more indicative that Apple cobbled together some kludge because this really wasn't in the primary planning when 10.14 was initially speced out. Otherwise they would have assigned resources so it got done on time. They didn't.

Even after they finished they changed the "feature set" so it complete. ( can't use Filevault is now a "complete" Mac in the Mac Pro special case. ). Again this points to a kludge.

The primary driver is more likely their screw up on getting a new Mac Pro the door. If a large chunk of their remaining target market are circling the airport on 2010-2012 (or 2009 moddded to 2010) then Apple needs to provide some path for them to continue to circle the airport. If Apple pushes more of them off to buying systems that are supported by someone else it will be hard to get them back over the next couple of years.

For now this expanding list of kludge and "happens to work" is being given the OK because Apple doesn't have an alternative yet. The Mac Pro 2013 is in almost just as bad of shape but technically the "clock" isn't running on it. (And even if Apple does get the older Mac Pro dropped they'll then have yet another older than norms system hanging around.)





The T2 is a non issue. The old Mac Pros don't even work with Filevault while all newer Mac without a T2 do. T2 and Metal aren't the only thing. AVX is missing. Intel bug fixes will probably be missing in a year or so. etc etc. The tech is 10 years old. It is in the process of being dropped. The clock is running and the process has already started.

There is nothing I could add. Your view is sharp like a laser beam from Mr. Goldfinger.
To be honest, I was surprised that we "5.1 clubbers" got Mojave support. I was absolutely certain that High Sierra was the last MacOS system for us. For all those that upgraded to Mojave already, it becomes obvious how much effort from Apple was necessary to even get there. I had to do at least three firmware upgrades (thanks to tsialex) to get to the final 140000 boot Rom. I think it is most likely that Mojave is the last iteration. However, sind the MacOS are not really that different, chances are still good for some slight hacking to get one or two future MacOS systems out of the 5.1. - Time will tell.
Too bad for the ones that come so late in the game. I had much fun working and upgrading this wonderful industrial design tower, - a true marvel in the history of the workstation. What a great machine. It will be very interesting to see Apple's new Mac Pro 7.1. They have to make up for the failure of the 6.1 and keep up with expectations of a super solid tower from the past that lasted almost a full decade. I am thrilled to see Apple, topping the 5.1 with the 7.1 - whatever the price tag may be....

 

[racer]

Because Apple explicitly publishes a list and the formula behind getting on the list.

Yes it does point to that. First, those firmware updates came late. They didn't come with the beta release they came after the beta release. So the Mac Pro 2010 and 2012 were not 'first class' targets of the Mojave release. Otherwise they would have released on time in the main mix. That is more indicative that Apple cobbled together some kludge because this really wasn't in the primary planning when 10.14 was initially speced out. Otherwise they would have assigned resources so it got done on time. They didn't.

Yes that's all very logical and all, but I'm not saying that we are hoping for a five year window of updates.
By your logic, if Apple fumbles the 2019 Mac Pro release and we get another supported release (because it doesn't want trusty cMP users left our in the cold), that's a further 3 years of officially supported life.

Even if that doesn't happen, and the 5.1 is cut off in June of 2019 and it only gets another year of security updates we are talking about minimal risk here. Because risk is relative to cost.

For today, now, a $500 (used) 5.1 MP gets you 6 (old) cores, 32GB of memory, PCI express SSD speeds, and very importantly for many, 2019 desktop class GPU support.

That's a safe bet in my book.

 

[deconstruct60]

Yes that's all very logical and all, but I'm not saying that we are hoping for a five year window of updates.
By your logic, if Apple fumbles the 2019 Mac Pro release and we get another supported release (because it doesn't want trusty cMP users left our in the cold), that's a further 3 years of officially supported life.

3 years due to old OS versions getting narrowing security upgrades? Maybe. Hardware wise? No. Leading edge OS updates? No.

There is not +3 years at all in the formula's logic. The 2009 model is already done (not supported in OS or hardware). Apple can 'hand wave' the 2010 through if point to the beta data of 10.15 (early june) and the last manufacture date on 2010 as "too close to call" of June 2012. ( the hardware support rule is measured in years not months... so +/- a couple of months is inside unit of measure. ). Technically the 2012 was superseded in Dec 2013 so it has until 2020 on hardware support. The common factor is that all of those have "ceased manufacture" date of long ago. They are all at the edge of dying off.

The Mac Pro 2012 model died off early in 2013 in the EU. Depending upon how far the slide into 2020 there is reasonable chance would just end the MP 2013 (and stop the 5,1 macOS updates. If pointing at the 10.n-1 , n-2 security upgrades they could set the 5,1 adrift starting next year. ). The "but you'll get security updates for a while" only makes being dropped from "leading edge" new version macOS upgrade support more likely. The 10.n.0 - 10.n.2 of late are usually particularly flaking as a solid production macOS target anyway. If large chunk of market is going to wait for 10.n.3-6 does have another several months to get a new Mac Pro out the door if close the window on the 5,1's.

Even if that doesn't happen, and the 5.1 is cut off in June of 2019 and it only gets another year of security updates we are talking about minimal risk here. Because risk is relative to cost.

In the context this thread started off in, ... no. As a macOS developer being off the latest version is not a low risk zone. For folks who are running Adobe CS 6 sure. Any workflow software base that are on a trailing edge or mostly static software API then yes. All 5,1 models are not going to implode or go useless in 2019. But it is highly likely they will be decoupled from where macOS is going. For those whose primary value balance is toward looking in the rear view mirror that is fine.

In the new software business though if your primary task is looking in the rear view mirror you very likely have problems with a viable business model.

For today, now, a $500 (used) 5.1 MP gets you 6 (old) cores, 32GB of memory, PCI express SSD speeds, and very importantly for many, 2019 desktop class GPU support.

That's a safe bet in my book.

Price and risk are ttwo different things. "it is relatively cheap so it doesn't matter I flushed my money down the drain". that is distinctly different than low risk. A $2 lottery ticket is cheap but it is very high risk ( you are probably going to loose). A lottery ticket is "safe" only in the sense that for most folks they can allocate $2 to the "fart away" discretionary spending pool. it is a fun way to flush money away.

The risk of the bet is grounded in the likelihood of loosing/winning the bet.

 

[yurc]

For software or dev purpose, I think 5,1 was not ideal choice. Mac Mini is more viable options. an i7 Mini 2018 have equal or more processing power compared than upgraded dual X5690 in 5.1 with less electricity.

Considering cheese grater are in front of obsolete door which can hampered for getting access to latest OS X and xCode. Not counting heat and power consumptions. Most 5,1 user are mostly people who need for specific purpose and prefer headless traditional tower box workstation.

Out of topics, but hey this old cheese grater is the only one of their kind which can takes brand new shiny Radeon VII GPU OOB with 10.14.5 without need to fiddling with external enclosure (assuming PSU was already pixlas-ed).

As early stage this was good points indicate new GPU for 7.1, or another powerful GPU options for 5.1 in future but it seems bottlenecked by 5.1 old cpus.

Back to topics : grab the 5.1 if you willing to doing some tinkering and enjoying it, for software dev priority latest Mac are better choice IMHO.

 

[alphaod]

This poll sucks… and this thread is old now, but I wouldn't bother looking at the Mac Pro in the OP for €1000 Euro; overpriced is what it is. I would get something crappier if you plan to upgrade it. If just for software development, the current Mac mini will be faster.

 

[yurc]

This poll sucks… and this thread is old now, but I wouldn't bother looking at the Mac Pro in the OP for €1000 Euro; overpriced is what it is. I would get something crappier if you plan to upgrade it. If just for software development, the current Mac mini will be faster.

E-bay seller who known any stuff for cheese grater tends to being overpriced because some fraction of user still in demands with 5,1 even in front of vintage door. Not mentioning current new firmware brings tons of benefit to 5,1 and sadly *** seller take advantage of that.