Is using a tethering app without paying extra, stealing?

[JMax1]

Arrrrr me mateys! Just keep rationalizing your actions! Just because YOU think YOU are entitled to something YOU think it's right!

You might not be using MORE bandwith at any given moment while tethered, but you might use it more frequently, surf the internet for longer periods on your laptop than physically on your iPhone. In the end you use more data, and AT&T reserves the right to charge more (tethering fee, it sucks, don't get me wrong, but that's the standard...for now) if you use it for more (yes I know unlimited is unlimited...) and not from just your iPhone. It's business ethics, not your ethics.

 

[cualexander]

If I buy a AT&T 3G card for my laptop, which 3g network am I using?

If I tether my computer to my iphone, which 3g network am I using?

Answer to both, the SAME AT&T 3G network. Therefore all this stuff you've been saying about "strain on the network" is ridiculous. If I download a web page on my iphone vs a web page on my computer, the bandwidth used is exactly the same. Period. End of story. The iphone's bandwidth is just transferred. No more network usage than normal.

They just want to charge you more for something you are already paying for. If anyone is stealing anything, its AT&T for charging you more.

 

[jajohns8]

Well, no. That's not fair at all actually. I pay $30/mo for "unlimited" bandwidth. The limit is actually 6GB, so if I go over 6GB then yes, maybe I should suffer some consequence like a fee or something, but I have never gotten anywhere close to 6GB.

Bittorrent doesn't work very well through the iPhone, so I don't even use it. I tether when I'm in one of my classes because the school's wifi doesn't reach far enough to get there, and all I do is surf the web, use iChat and use Twitterrific. I rarely download files because its so frickin' slow and it makes surfing the web impossibly slow.



I guess you're just more of a pessimist than me, then.

Well, again, if you aren't putting a strain on your home broadband network, fine. If you are within limits established by the provider, fine. If you do overburden the network more than the average user, you should pay more. Guess what. Tiered pricing is coming. As far as being a pessimist, I'm not. I prefer "realist." I just dont think I'm entitled to something for free.

 

[jajohns8]

If I buy a AT&T 3G card for my laptop, which 3g network am I using?

If I tether my computer to my iphone, which 3g network am I using?

Answer to both, the SAME AT&T 3G network. Therefore all this stuff you've been saying about "strain on the network" is ridiculous. If I download a web page on my iphone vs a web page on my computer, the bandwidth used is exactly the same. Period. End of story. The iphone's bandwidth is just transferred. No more network usage than normal.

They just want to charge you more for something you are already paying for. If anyone is stealing anything, its AT&T for charging you more.

Yet you paid for the card, right? I'm sure some of the price of the card helps pay for the network. That is within TOS. That's not a valid argument to me.
And no, I don't know that the 3g infrastructure/architecture for that mobile card is the exact same as for the iPhone.

 

[KingHuds]

I would be all for tiered pricing. In a month, through normal usage and tethering I got nowhere even close to 1GB through that, of course I'm not one playing, games, torrenting, or streaming anything, so if AT&T has a tiered plan where I could pay less and those that actually use the bandwidth pay more I am all for it, $30 for 5GB of non-limited data, for both on phone use and tethering would be more than I would ever use it for. I don't need unlimited data and will NOT pay $60 a month for the odd half hour I am sitting in airport that I need to use my laptop. Make those who want unlimited data pay for it, but don't charge everyone else the same then.

 

[cualexander]

Yet you paid for the card, right? I'm sure some of the price of the card helps pay for the network. That is within TOS. That's not a valid argument to me.
And no, I don't know that the 3g infrastructure/architecture for that mobile card is the exact same as for the iPhone.

I paid for my phone. I pay a cell phone bill every month. I pay for txt messages that cost AT&T next to nothing. Does all that not help the network? Poor AT&T, they have no money. Only a monopoly in the US on the iPhone. The laptop connect card is heavily subsidized just like the iPhone is. Its using the same towers as the iPhone uses. How do I know this? I do installs for a software company, and most of our clients are in the middle of nowhere. Anywhere, I can't get iPhone 3g signal, I can't get a 3g connect card signal either. Why do you think that is? The 3g card is not using some magical technology, its still 3g.

Unlimited is Unlimited. Thats why I leave my cable modem connection at home downloading at 1200k/sec 24/7. If I'm not downloading, I'm paying the cable company for nothing.

 

[Mikey B]

Yet you paid for the card, right? I'm sure some of the price of the card helps pay for the network. That is within TOS. That's not a valid argument to me.
And no, I don't know that the 3g infrastructure/architecture for that mobile card is the exact same as for the iPhone.

Of course it is the same network. Do you really believe that AT&T has 2 separate 3G networks? They would have to charge rates so high that the $60 per month you pay for a 3G card would seem like a cheeseburger of of the dollar menu at McDonald's.

The enforceability of a EULA or TOC is completely dependent upon the particular laws of the state in which the agreement is made. There is no blanket yes or no about whether breaching a EULA is "legal" or not. In some instances it may be enforceable, in others it may not. There really isn't enough precedence either way to say one way or the other. But, that being said, if AT&T learns that you have broken your TOC, then they seem to be within their rights to terminate your contract and charge you an ETF. At that point it is on you if you want to bring the matter to court to have your money returned and contract re-instated.

The OP's comments, to me, have less to do with the legality of the issue and more to do with the ethics. The real question being posited is if it is ethical for you to interpret a TOC on your own, to your own benefit and therefore allow you to tether your iPhone.

Legality has nothing to do with it.

What do I think? Honestly, I have no qualms using my iPhone to tether to the internet. I pay my $30 a month, for so-called unlimited internet access and my conscience is clear to apply that data to my computer. I'm not straining their network, I don't do anything on my laptop when connected that I don't do on my iPhone other than emailing a file or 2 for work, and frankly, I think I'm giving them fair market value for the service they are providing me. I'm not saying that makes it "right" or "legal," I'm just saying that I'm fine with it. I sleep well, wee no blood on my hands, and will continue to tether when needed.

AT&T's only motivation to prevent tethering with iPhones is that they haven't found a way to monetize it yet. If they do, and their service is compelling enough for me to use it, I'll happily pay for it. Right now, I don't have the choice and I do have the need and the means to tether, so, I'm in like Flynn with PDAnet.

 

[jajohns8]

I would be all for tiered pricing. In a month, through normal usage and tethering I got nowhere even close to 1GB through that, of course I'm not one playing, games, torrenting, or streaming anything, so if AT&T has a tiered plan where I could pay less and those that actually use the bandwidth pay more I am all for it, $30 for 5GB of non-limited data, for both on phone use and tethering would be more than I would ever use it for. I don't need unlimited data and will NOT pay $60 a month for the odd half hour I am sitting in airport that I need to use my laptop. Make those who want unlimited data pay for it, but don't charge everyone else the same then.

Fair enough. I'm all for paying what you use. If you use more, you should pay more. Let it be standardized and fair. To just "claim" you use less isn't good enough though.

 

[jajohns8]

I paid for my phone. I pay a cell phone bill every month. I pay for txt messages that cost AT&T next to nothing. Does all that not help the network? Poor AT&T, they have no money. Only a monopoly in the US on the iPhone. The laptop connect card is heavily subsidized just like the iPhone is. Its using the same towers as the iPhone uses. How do I know this? I do installs for a software company, and most of our clients are in the middle of nowhere. Anywhere, I can't get iPhone 3g signal, I can't get a 3g connect card signal either. Why do you think that is? The 3g card is not using some magical technology, its still 3g.

Unlimited is Unlimited. Thats why I leave my cable modem connection at home downloading at 1200k/sec 24/7. If I'm not downloading, I'm paying the cable company for nothing.

You paid for a cel phone that uses X amount of data for itself. Not for a cel phone that can be used as a modem for other hardware that will use Y amount of data. As long as you are within the limits of your TOS with your cable company, I have no issue with your bandwidth usage. That's not apples to apples.

 

[jajohns8]

Of course it is the same network. Do you really believe that AT&T has 2 separate 3G networks? They would have to charge rates so high that the $60 per month you pay for a 3G card would seem like a cheeseburger of of the dollar menu at McDonald's.

The enforceability of a EULA or TOC is completely dependent upon the particular laws of the state in which the agreement is made. There is no blanket yes or no about whether breaching a EULA is "legal" or not. In some instances it may be enforceable, in others it may not. There really isn't enough precedence either way to say one way or the other. But, that being said, if AT&T learns that you have broken your TOC, then they seem to be within their rights to terminate your contract and charge you an ETF. At that point it is on you if you want to bring the matter to court to have your money returned and contract re-instated.

The OP's comments, to me, have less to do with the legality of the issue and more to do with the ethics. The real question being posited is if it is ethical for you to interpret a TOC on your own, to your own benefit and therefore allow you to tether your iPhone.

Legality has nothing to do with it.

What do I think? Honestly, I have no qualms using my iPhone to tether to the internet. I pay my $30 a month, for so-called unlimited internet access and my conscience is clear to apply that data to my computer. I'm not straining their network, I don't do anything on my laptop when connected that I don't do on my iPhone other than emailing a file or 2 for work, and frankly, I think I'm giving them fair market value for the service they are providing me. I'm not saying that makes it "right" or "legal," I'm just saying that I'm fine with it. I sleep well, wee no blood on my hands, and will continue to tether when needed.

AT&T's only motivation to prevent tethering with iPhones is that they haven't found a way to monetize it yet. If they do, and their service is compelling enough for me to use it, I'll happily pay for it. Right now, I don't have the choice and I do have the need and the means to tether, so, I'm in like Flynn with PDAnet.

Maybe some of the hardware is the same, maybe some is different. Doesn't matter at all to me.

I don't know that the price modeling/cost structure is identical for sales of the mobile 3G cards and for the Iphones either. I don't think you know the details of that either. That's based on a complex set of metrics, as Karl P stated.

I think that when you bought your 3G card you were given bandwidth with a particular TOS.

I think when you bought your Iphone you were given bandwidth and a particular TOS as well. For your Iphone. Not for what you might hook your phone to.

When you bought your phone, you agreed to that. That's what the TOS says.

Now, you are saying it's ok to not agree to it because you "dont want to."

Wow. I wish I could not pay my mortgage because I "didnt want to."

I am the OP, and I have repeatedly said I don't really care about the "legality" of tethering because it IS unenforceable.

That has nothing to do with if it's right or wrong.

Like I said earlier, I don't throw trash out of my window when I'm driving because I don't want to act like a douche bag. Not because I'm afraid of "getting caught" or it's "technically a violation of statute 1.2356GB."

I want to know if others think it's stealing.
I think it is.

If you don't hey, that's fine.

 

[KingHuds]

Fair enough. I'm all for paying what you use. If you use more, you should pay more. Let it be standardized and fair. To just "claim" you use less isn't good enough though.

Its not just "claiming", have you ever checked the data usage under general settings? Yeah.

 

[jajohns8]

Its not just "claiming", have you ever checked the data usage under general settings? Yeah.

If you are not overburdening the network, then wonderful for you.

Is the avg./max/min rate at which the data was sent downstream reflected in that metric?

I don't think so.

I'm not sure the end total is the only metric for measuring strain on a network. In fact, I' m pretty sure its not.

Spikes and peak usage times are very important in analyzing a network.

Yeah?

 

[pellets007]

It sounds like you're just wanting us to say that it is stealing. Seriously, if it's causing you this much grief to debate over other's opinions, just buy the damn plan. You'll just be paying the exact same plan twice, and get the same results.

 

[ppc750fx]

You might not be using MORE bandwith at any given moment while tethered, but you might use it more frequently, surf the internet for longer periods on your laptop than physically on your iPhone. In the end you use more data, and AT&T reserves the right to charge more (tethering fee, it sucks, don't get me wrong, but that's the standard...for now) if you use it for more (yes I know unlimited is unlimited...) and not from just your iPhone. It's business ethics, not your ethics.

Sigh.

Look, you're basically arguing that it's wrong because AT&T TOS prohibits it.

One slight problem with using AT&T's TOS as your moral meter stick: not everyone is legally compelled to follow it.

I tether my phone all the time. I use anywhere from 500MB to 3+GB of data each month. 'course I never signed a contract, so if I pay for unlimited data I feel perfectly within my rights to use as much data as I please.

 

[jajohns8]

It sounds like you're just wanting us to say that it is stealing. Seriously, if it's causing you this much grief to debate over other's opinions, just buy the damn plan. You'll just be paying the exact same plan twice, and get the same results.

Well, is it stealing? What's your take? You didn't answer.

Trust me. It's not causing me any grief. Seriously. Trust me on that.

I'd just like some justification on why it's not stealing.

I havn't read anything yet that convinces me that it isnt stealing.
Can you do it?

What plan are you talking about? One that has in it's TOS the expectation that I can tether? Havnt seen that one yet.

I dont really have a need to tether, so me changing my plans doesn't apply here.

I am just posing the question on whether it is stealing or not.

 

[jajohns8]

Sigh.

Look, you're basically arguing that it's wrong because AT&T TOS prohibits it.

One slight problem with using AT&T's TOS as your moral meter stick: not everyone is legally compelled to follow it.

I tether my phone all the time. I use anywhere from 500MB to 3+GB of data each month. 'course I never signed a contract, so if I pay for unlimited data I feel perfectly within my rights to use as much data as I please.

We're not talking about if its legal or not. We're talking about if its stealing. (sure stealing is illegal, but lets stick with using the term stealing here.)

You pay for unlimited data that your phone uses. Not for unlimited data your phone can pass to another device.

If you use the phone, you are accepting the TOS. Thats the way it goes.

 

[ppc750fx]

We're not talking about if its legal or not. We're talking about if its stealing. (sure stealing is illegal, but lets stick with using the term stealing here.)

You pay for unlimited data that your phone uses. Not for unlimited data your phone can pass to another device.

Let's take a look at a definition of "steal":

verb ( past stole |stōl|; past part. stolen |ˈstōlən|)
1 [ trans. ] take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it : thieves stole her bicycle | [ intrans. ] she was found guilty of stealing from her employers | [as adj. ] ( stolen) stolen goods.
• dishonestly pass off (another person's ideas) as one's own : accusations that one group had stolen ideas from the other were soon flying.
• take the opportunity to give or share (a kiss) when it is not expected or when people are not watching : he was allowed to steal a kiss in the darkness.
• (in various sports) gain (an advantage, a run, or possession of the ball) unexpectedly or by exploiting the temporary distraction of an opponent.
• Baseball (of a base runner) advance safely to (the next base) by running to it as the pitcher begins the delivery : Rickey stole third base.
• attract the most notice in (a scene or a theatrical production) while not being the featured performer : why not be a big ham, and steal as many scenes as possible.
2 [ intrans. ] move somewhere quietly or surreptitiously : he stole down to the kitchen | figurative a delicious languor was stealing over her.
• [ trans. ] direct (a look) quickly and unobtrusively : he stole a furtive glance at her.

According to that definition, it's not stealing. I'm not taking any property from my carrier. I am, instead, simply using a legally-obtained service in a manner they don't like. Maybe not the kindest thing to do to the poor multi-million dollar international company, but I certainly don't see any moral objection.

If you use the phone, you are accepting the TOS. Thats the way it goes.

No. That's not the way it goes. There is no legal precedent for that, and frankly, I find the entire concept that a company can dictate what you can and cannot do with hardware that you rightfully purchased utterly absurd.

Look, you want me to agree that it's wrong to do something that a major company doesn't like solely on the basis that they don't like it. This attitude irritates me to no end; it's become popular in recent years and is a near-complete reversal of the concept of consumer rights (and indeed, of many of the basic rights upon which the principles of capitalism are built.) If anything, I'd argue that those attacking the centuries-old concept of personal property are the ones in the wrong...

 

[KingHuds]

Once the data is on my phone, I can do anything I want with said data, including pass it over a local network. Guess what that does to AT&Ts network? Nothing. My local wifi or wired connection does NOTHING to the 3G network.
When I SSH into my phone am I causing a strain on the network? No, its a similar idea with tethering, the laptop doesn't magically get the data from the network, and theoretically, if the 3G speeds are so great, browsing on the phone should be the same as on the laptop.

 

[pellets007]

It's not stealing. If anything, AT&T is stealing from you, should you pay the plan. It doesn't affect their traffic flow at all because it's the exact same data.

By plan I mean, the $30 data plan and a plan for tethering.

 

[jajohns8]

Let's take a look at a definition of "steal":



According to that definition, it's not stealing. I'm not taking any property from my carrier. I am, instead, simply using a legally-obtained service in a manner they don't like. Maybe not the kindest thing to do to the poor multi-million dollar international company, but I certainly don't see any moral objection.



No. That's not the way it goes. There is no legal precedent for that, and frankly, I find the entire concept that a company can dictate what you can and cannot do with hardware that you rightfully purchased utterly absurd.

Look, you want me to agree that it's wrong to do something that a major company doesn't like solely on the basis that they don't like it. This attitude irritates me to no end; it's become popular in recent years and is a near-complete reversal of the concept of consumer rights (and indeed, of many of the basic rights upon which the principles of capitalism are built.) If anything, I'd argue that those attacking the centuries-old concept of personal property are the ones in the wrong...

Not really.
Can you afford to build your own 3G network?

Didn't think so. You don't own the 3G network.

They can charge whatever they want under whatever terms they want, for people to use it. They built it. Not you.

If they want to charge 1 finger and 10,000.00$ a month, they can do that.

Just because you dont like the TOS, that you agreed to when you bought the phone, BTW, doesnt mean it's right to violate it because "you want to."

You own the phone.

You agree to use their network, that they built (because you cannot build one by yourself) as they want you too. (The TOS states this.)

I have always maintained we aren't talking about legality.

Capitalism is not about getting something you think you are owed for "free."


If you cant live by the terms you agreed to when you bought it, why buy it in the first place?
You pay to have data for your phone. Not to have the data piped where you want just cause you "want to."

 

[cualexander]

It sounds like OP works for AT&T.... Poor AT&T, losing so much money from people not paying for tethering.... do they even give you the legal option at the moment? Nope.

AT&T blows. The only reason I have them is because I have no choice.

 

[QuarterSwede]

Not really.
Can you afford to build your own 3G network?

Didn't think so. You don't own the 3G network.

They can charge whatever they want under whatever terms they want, for people to use it. They built it. Not you.

You agree to use their network, that they built (because you cannot build one by yourself) as they want you too. (The TOS states this.)


If you cant live by the terms you agreed to when you bought it, why buy it in the first place?

+1

 

[ppc750fx]

Not really.
Can you afford to build your own 3G network?

Didn't think so. You don't own the 3G network.

Actually, I do own a part of it. A large portion of AT&T's mid-90s - early oughts infrastructure build out was done using money gained from taxpayer-sponsored tax cuts, subsidies, and right of way grants.

That's not actually the reason I think tethering is OK, but it's worth pointing that out anyways.

They can charge whatever they want under whatever terms they want, for people to use it. They built it. Not you.

If they want to charge 1 finger and 10,000.00$ a month, they can do that.

Just because you dont like the TOS, that you agreed to when you bought the phone, BTW, doesnt mean it's right to violate it because "you want to."

Your logic works perfectly. Assuming I signed an agreement not to tether.

But I didn't. I didn't sign it when I bought the phone. I didn't sign it as part of a contract. I specifically obtained my phone without signing any contract because I want as few people trying to limit my usage of the device as possible.

You own the phone.
[...]
Capitalism is not about getting something you think you are owed for "free."

No, but one of the principles of capitalism is the concept of ownership and what it entails. The commonly-accepted concept of property that we have in the US allows anyone to modify or even destroy their own property without having to first ask permission from the manufacturer.

If you cant live by the terms you agreed to when you bought it, why buy it in the first place?
You pay to have data for your phone. Not to have the data piped where you want just cause you "want to."

Because the device manufacturer doesn't have one damn bit of say in what I do with my devices after I purchase them. They want to, they really do, but they don't.

 

[anjinha]

Some people use their iPhones to stream music, with Pandora, Simplify Media or web radios. If they do it a lot that can use a lot of bandwidth and consume more data. Is that wrong? Is that more wrong than people who use tethering once in a while to check a few websites?

Assuming that people are going to use their unlimited data plans to download torrents by tethering their iPhones is like when music companies wanted apple to pay them for each iPod sold, because they assumed people were going to use them to store illegal music...