It makes business sense for HP to sell workstations, why not for Apple??

[goMac]

No doubt: This is far from an overnight shake and bake operation, it would be at least a 2 year shift. And while I didn't think about the coders, I think it could be addressed well enough to get started within that time frame - provided they are building off of pre existing code as a base.

Yeah, but the problem with training new engineers is that the only people who can train them are the already constrained veteran engineers.

Even if Apple wanted to be everywhere, they simply aren't staffed to do it. Probably one reason the servers are hurting.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Dude, Apple has nothing even close to Microsoft's enterprise capabilities...

While Microsoft has the large majority, Apple is gaining quite a momentum in the business world with no signs of slowing dow. Obviously iPhones/iPads are the biggest. While PC desktop are declining, iMac MacBook Pro/Airs sales are slowly continually going up. Some of which due to business sales. A carry over from iPads/iPhones.

To use a mass deployment of iPads/iPhones in business, needs a Mac computers to administer them with.

 

[G51989]

Apple is something a very very large majority of IT departments are NOT interested in. They're to expensive, you get terrible performance for your dollar, Apple has zero support for the enterprise market, they are currently compatible with pretty much nothing in the enterprise market, and just aren't worth the cost. Also, totally impossible to manage. Microsoft has been king of the Enterprise market for 20 years now, they know what they're doing. And Apple is a company that is almost soley focused on the consumer, not the business market. And its what Apple is good at.

iPhones/iPads yeah sure. Apple domination of the enterprise desktop market? Never gonna happen, hell right now they have less than 10% of the consumer desktop market.

 

[scottsjack]

Apple is something a very very large majority of IT departments are NOT interested in. They're to expensive, you get terrible performance for your dollar, Apple has zero support for the enterprise market, they are currently compatible with pretty much nothing in the enterprise market, and just aren't worth the cost. Also, totally impossible to manage. Microsoft has been king of the Enterprise market for 20 years now, they know what they're doing. And Apple is a company that is almost soley focused on the consumer, not the business market. And its what Apple is good at.

iPhones/iPads yeah sure. Apple domination of the enterprise desktop market? Never gonna happen, hell right now they have less than 10% of the consumer desktop market.

Totally agree with you. As much as I love my Macs at home I would rather use my trusty Windows XP machine at work. It's more trouble free than my Lion installations. For what it's used for I can only say "it just works".

 

[G51989]

Totally agree with you. As much as I love my Macs at home I would rather use my trusty Windows XP machine at work. It's more trouble free than my Lion installations. For what it's used for I can only say "it just works".

Exactly, thats why Apple doesn't care about the Enterprise Market, they know they can't compete.

Apple is really good at making a consumer OS and mobile devices, its what they do best and its why they focus on it.

Microsoft is REALLY good at making Server OS's, Enterprise OS's, and Windows, an OS that works at home and in business, thats why they put a ton of effort into the corperate world.

Just how it is.

 

[goMac]

Apple is something a very very large majority of IT departments are NOT interested in. They're to expensive, you get terrible performance for your dollar, Apple has zero support for the enterprise market, they are currently compatible with pretty much nothing in the enterprise market, and just aren't worth the cost. Also, totally impossible to manage. Microsoft has been king of the Enterprise market for 20 years now, they know what they're doing. And Apple is a company that is almost soley focused on the consumer, not the business market. And its what Apple is good at.

iPhones/iPads yeah sure. Apple domination of the enterprise desktop market? Never gonna happen, hell right now they have less than 10% of the consumer desktop market.

I'm not sure IT departments have a choice. More and more employees (and executives, which is where it really counts) are adopting Macs.

It does make me feel sorry for IT departments though. They're going to have to start adopting Macs despite Apple's lackluster enterprise support. I see it happening all the time.

It's a real shame because if you go back 3-4 years Apple had enterprise issues, but it looked like there was actually a chance they could seriously compete. XServe + Mac OS X Server promised a lot of great things, it just needed some love and attention.

 

[theSeb]

Exactly, thats why Apple doesn't care about the Enterprise Market, they know they can't compete.

Apple is really good at making a consumer OS and mobile devices, its what they do best and its why they focus on it.

Microsoft is REALLY good at making Server OS's, Enterprise OS's, and Windows, an OS that works at home and in business, thats why they put a ton of effort into the corperate world.

Just how it is.

Both operating systems have their positives and negatives and things that they are better at or worse at.

The MBP is the best and nicest Windows laptop I've ever used though.

 

[G51989]

I'm not sure IT departments have a choice. More and more employees (and executives, which is where it really counts) are adopting Macs.

It does make me feel sorry for IT departments though. They're going to have to start adopting Macs despite Apple's lackluster enterprise support. I see it happening all the time.

It's a real shame because if you go back 3-4 years Apple had enterprise issues, but it looked like there was actually a chance they could seriously compete. XServe + Mac OS X Server promised a lot of great things, it just needed some love and attention.

Not sure where you work, but where I work, and I've worked for some big companies, employees don't get a choice in what computer they get. The majority of big business's go Windows, Because windows is a better operating system for the business world, because its compatible, scalable, customizable, and very very secure and reliable.

If that were true, Apple wouldn't have the sub 10% marketshare that they do.

 

[theSeb]

I'm not sure IT departments have a choice. More and more employees (and executives, which is where it really counts) are adopting Macs.

It does make me feel sorry for IT departments though. They're going to have to start adopting Macs despite Apple's lackluster enterprise support. I see it happening all the time.

It's a real shame because if you go back 3-4 years Apple had enterprise issues, but it looked like there was actually a chance they could seriously compete. XServe + Mac OS X Server promised a lot of great things, it just needed some love and attention.

iPhones and iPads have made huge strides into the corporate world, which could well be the catalyst that pushes this further. Windows 8 is also helping.

 

[G51989]

iPhones and iPads have made huge strides into the corporate world, which could well be the catalyst that pushes this further. Windows 8 is also helping.

iPhones and iPads are totally different from desktop computers, which is what the corporate world for the most part runs off of.

The problem with Macs, and OSX. Is that they have zero support in the enterprise world, half the abilty to customize to your departments needs. And they're Cost vs Performance ratio is TERRIBLE

 

[goMac]

iPhones and iPads are totally different from desktop computers, which is what the corporate world for the most part runs off of.

The problem with Macs, and OSX. Is that they have zero support in the enterprise world, half the abilty to customize to your departments needs. And they're Cost vs Performance ratio is TERRIBLE

It always starts with iPhones and iPads, and then the Macbook Airs start rolling in...

Again, I'm seeing this more and more.

(Also: I can attest that the cost vs. performance comment is dead wrong. I've worked IT in mixed environments. If cost vs. performance is ever in favor of Windows, it's usually due to poorly trained IT.)

 

[NewbieCanada]

I'm not sure IT departments have a choice. More and more employees (and executives, which is where it really counts) are adopting Macs.

Sure, but those execs are using email and MS Office. There aren't any major support issues. I work in IT - I use SQL Server, Visual Studio and MS Access. No way am I ever going to be using a Mac for that, although I do use my own Mac to RDP into my Windows desktop so I can use my Mac keyboard, trackpad and run Windows at 2560x1440

 

[theSeb]

iPhones and iPads are totally different from desktop computers, which is what the corporate world for the most part runs off of.

You've completely missed the point.

----------

Sure, but those execs are using email and MS Office. There aren't any major support issues. I work in IT - I use SQL Server, Visual Studio and MS Access. No way am I ever going to be using a Mac for that, although I do use my own Mac to RDP into my Windows desktop so I can use my Mac keyboard, trackpad and run Windows at 2560x1440

There are plenty of alternatives to being stuck in MS SQL Server and .net development.

 

[goMac]

Sure, but those execs are using email and MS Office. There aren't any major support issues. I work in IT - I use SQL Server, Visual Studio and MS Access. No way am I ever going to be using a Mac for that, although I do use my own Mac to RDP into my Windows desktop so I can use my Mac keyboard, trackpad and run Windows at 2560x1440

Sure, you're stuck on MS technologies that aren't cross platform. Thus you will obviously be using a Windows machine.

Just like if you were using Xcode and WebObjects a Windows machine wouldn't be an option.

Doesn't have much to do with the current conversation about IT having to support Macs though.

 

[theSeb]

Sure, you're stuck on MS technologies that aren't cross platform. Thus you will obviously be using a Windows machine.

Just like if you were using Xcode and WebObjects a Windows machine wouldn't be an option.

Doesn't have much to do with the current conversation about IT having to support Macs though.

Well, it sort of does. If someone could pry windows out of the corporate world, then there would be no more need for .net monkeys.

However, don't under-estimate the power of Visual Basic for Applications and Excel. Far too many companies base so much on this for their operations.

 

[G51989]

It always starts with iPhones and iPads, and then the Macbook Airs start rolling in...

Again, I'm seeing this more and more.

(Also: I can attest that the cost vs. performance comment is dead wrong. I've worked IT in mixed environments. If cost vs. performance is ever in favor of Windows, it's usually due to poorly trained IT.)

Yeah, I see companies going for iPhones and iPads, which makes sense. They are very easy to use for most people, and well made.

But heres what you need to understand. What makes a Mac better than a Windows PC? Macs cost twice as much as their PC counterparts without being well lets be honest, any better. At least for productivity. ( Yes there are SOME departments where Macs do better, but those are few and far between )
Give me one reason why an IT department would spend 500-600 dollars on PCs, vs 1200-1500-2000 dollars on an iMac or 3K+ on a Mac pro that can't do anything the cheaper PCs can do? It just makes no sense to go to Mac in an Enterprise world, it offers zero advantages at twice the cost.

Apple is VERY capable company. However, until they make a focus into the Enterprise World, they won't compete. And thats why Microsoft kicks Apple's ass all over the Desktop world, and will keep doing so.

DISCLAIMER: I don't hate Apple, I have a Ton of Macs ( as well as PCs ) and I love mine. But they just aren't an Enterprise Computing company. I have a feeling they dont want the business.

And I think Apple could do GREAT in the Enterprise Market, they make a great machine, a great OS.

Problem: Zero support for large scale enterprise market, and they REFUSE to make a budget Model. If Apple made a 700-800 dollar All In One with slightly worse materials, supported the enterprise market, and put effort into it. Which they don't. THey could do great.

 

[goMac]

But heres what you need to understand. What makes a Mac better than a Windows PC? Macs cost twice as much as their PC counterparts without being well lets be honest, any better. At least for productivity. ( Yes there are SOME departments where Macs do better, but those are few and far between )
Give me one reason why an IT department would spend 500-600 dollars on PCs, vs 1200-1500-2000 dollars on an iMac or 3K+ on a Mac pro that can't do anything the cheaper PCs can do? It just makes no sense to go to Mac in an Enterprise world, it offers zero advantages at twice the cost.

They're cheaper to maintain.

I've worked for organizations that have spent a lot of money doing that math.

I mean, think about it. How much do CALs alone cost? The hardware is about the cheapest part of buying Windows machines.

(Also, Apple doesn't charge retail prices to enterprise. You'll find Apple will bid against Dell and be price competitive in enterprise. If you're an enterprise actually buying at retail rates from Apple, and enterprise rates from Dell, that's awful darn foolish.)

 

[G51989]

They're cheaper to maintain.

I've worked for organizations that have spent a lot of money doing that math.

I mean, think about it. How much do CALs alone cost? The hardware is about the cheapest part of buying Windows machines.

(Also, Apple doesn't charge retail prices to enterprise. You'll find Apple will bid against Dell and be price competitive in enterprise. If you're an enterprise actually buying at retail rates from Apple, and enterprise rates from Dell, that's awful darn foolish.)

As have I, most of them went the Windows route. Its not that I'm dissing OSX, I love OSX. But the majority went the Windows route.

CALs are't cheap. But neither are macs.

And yes, I know Apple doesn't charge retail prices for Enterprise. But they are sill move expensive than a Dell or Levono, And Macs can't do anything better than a PC can.

And yeah, it might sound foolish, but Microsoft Maintain their 90+% marketshare for 15 years shows, they are doing something right.

 

[goMac]

As have I, most of them went the Windows route. Its not that I'm dissing OSX, I love OSX. But the majority went the Windows route.

CALs are't cheap. But neither are macs.

Right, as I said, once you factor the CALs into the equation, the PCs aren't cheap either. They're actually about even, or even more expensive.

Meantime, OS X deployments don't have CALs.

And yes, I know Apple doesn't charge retail prices for Enterprise. But they are sill move expensive than a Dell or Levono, And Macs can't do anything better than a PC can.

They most definitely are not more expensive if Apple bids. I've worked for organizations that knocked 40% off retail.

And again, that doesn't even include the CALs. The misleading part about Windows, again, is the hardware is generally the cheapest part of a Windows deployment. You can't just compare Mac hardware prices and Windows hardware prices, and then ignore the software prices entirely.

And yeah, it might sound foolish, but Microsoft Maintain their 90+% marketshare for 15 years shows, they are doing something right.

They're not maintaining. Apple was at 2% 10 years ago, MS at ~95%. They're sliding.

 

[G51989]

Right, as I said, once you factor the CALs into the equation, the PCs aren't cheap either. They're actually about even, or even more expensive.

Meantime, OS X deployments don't have CALs.



They most definitely are not more expensive if Apple bids. I've worked for organizations that knocked 40% off retail.

And again, that doesn't even include the CALs. The misleading part about Windows, again, is the hardware is generally the cheapest part of a Windows deployment. You can't just compare Mac hardware prices and Windows hardware prices, and then ignore the software prices entirely.



They're not maintaining. Apple was at 2% 10 years ago, MS at ~95%. They're sliding.

Last time I checked, you can't even do CALs with Mac. So you have to buy every single OS, every single program, every single thing, over and over again, with CAL from Microsoft. You buy yoru CAL, and can install and ghost as many times as you want.

If Apples were the same price, ( they aren't even with Enterprise Discount ) why isn't the Enterprise world running towards Mac? Well if the Market share for the past 15 years is any indication, large companies and large IT departments have ZERO intentions of switching to Mac, Because Apple warrentys, Support, and they dont care about their business customers. Their support is expensive, and totally useless.

If Apples are so awesome for Enteprise, I hve 2 questions for you.

1: Why isn't the Enterprise world running towards the Mac? They aren't.
2: Why isnt Apple making an effort?

 

[goMac]

Last time I checked, you can't even do CALs with Mac. So you have to buy every single OS, every single program, every single thing, over and over again, with CAL from Microsoft. You buy yoru CAL, and can install and ghost as many times as you want.

Then you'd be misinformed. Macs can ghost + license as well with Open Directory, the only difference being Apple doesn't charge per client access fees on their servers, so you don't say, have to pay Apple every year just to access your email.

It doesn't sound like you've done much Mac IT. But yes, you can stick licenses in your Open Directory server for apps that require it. It's just that Apple services don't. They're all unlimited client.

At lot of Mac (and Windows) apps don't use CALs anyway. They have their own licensing servers. Microsoft is really the only one that uses CALs.

If Apples were the same price, ( they aren't even with Enterprise Discount ) why isn't the Enterprise world running towards Mac? Well if the Market share for the past 15 years is any indication, large companies and large IT departments have ZERO intentions of switching to Mac, Because Apple warrentys, Support, and they dont care about their business customers. Their support is expensive, and totally useless.

If Apples are so awesome for Enteprise, I hve 2 questions for you.

1: Why isn't the Enterprise world running towards the Mac? They aren't.

Evidence says they are moving more towards Macs.

2: Why isnt Apple making an effort?

Ha. Now that's a more interesting topic. Just see every thread about the XServe in the last year.

Edit: The really shameful thing about that is that if Apple wanted, they could have taken on Microsoft head to head. They basically could have said "Buy XServes to run your Windows domains and your email/calendar. We can do the same stuff, run your Windows machines, all for a flat price with unlimited clients." If they pushed that angle more, they could have gotten tons of traction even on all Windows networks.

 

[noisycats]

I wouldn't use HP's business model as a paradigm for a healthy computer company.

In fact, based on their revolving door CEOs and utterly inept board of directors, I don't think HP is even committed to its own business model.

 

[goMac]

I wouldn't use HP's business model as a paradigm for a healthy computer company.

In fact, based on their revolving door CEOs and utterly inept board of directors, I don't think HP is even committed to its own business model.

This too. Their PC division is in a tailspin right now. So it may not actually make business sense for HP to sell workstations. Workstations are doing the best out of what they do, but that's not saying much.

 

[Panther Al]

The company I work for right now is a manufacturing concern: not creative this or that, nor finance, or any of that. We take steel and turn into things thats used every day. We was about 3 months from pulling the trigger and yanking the entire Wintel IT system out and replacing it top to bottom with macs when we was bought out by another company that is in bed with Dell. Everything we ran, every number, every support point of view, advocated that going all mac top to bottom would save us a small fortune in IT costs. Our IT guys two years later are still sending up memo's on how much sticking with Dell is costing us over going Mac.


Doesn't help that the new owners believe that having machines with more than 4GB of ram is bad, and enforcing a rule that we have to use old VGA standards for screens, and no larger than 19"....


But still.

 

[goMac]

Everything we ran, every number, every support point of view, advocated that going all mac top to bottom would save us a small fortune in IT costs. Our IT guys two years later are still sending up memo's on how much sticking with Dell is costing us over going Mac.

This. Every study I've seen and been a part of says Macs are cheaper.