iPod It seems Apple is trying to screw me over with their "moisture indicator" Help!

[john123]

And product literature is never wrong, eh? If it were, you'd have crazy things like class action lawsuits. Oh wait.

As I stated earlier, my statement of Apple policy was specifically what I was informed by a supervisor (making more than you - a friend of mine is a Genius on the west coast, so I'm pretty sure of that).

And, like I said, I didn't have to "learn my lesson" any hard way. I got it replaced for $0. I'm sorry that my facts don't square with how you'd like to see the world, but sometimes that's just how it rolls.

 

[LateOne]

I have 5 devices (I'm an iPhone dev). I take the scrubbier ones to the gym, I sit them next to hottubs, once a sauna. In bathroom while showering, etc. I have used them in the rain (seattle).

not a single pink sensor in any of them. .

You're lucky. My Touch didn't survive a wet and windy walk home through town. I suspect the problem occurred whilst waiting for a minute or two in an ATM queue. I foolishly took it out my pocket to change tracks. I suspect that a drop or drops rolled down the screen into one of its' crevices ?? , not sure really but it 'hung' pretty smartish. Visits to the retailer and the apple store were to no avail.

I decided that I'd made a poor purchasing decision in that music playing is my priority, and of course the Touch isn't good at 'in-pocket' music selection,
and it rains in the UK !!. I sometimes wonder whether it is assumed that purchasers are living in sunny California.

My myriad mates with iPhones have all bought after market covers. This I feel is an admission of the fragility of the original. But they all love the thing .

Maybe I was just unlucky. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[john123]

Maybe I was just unlucky. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'm sure you aren't either. This is where things get so crazy. You talk to people who have "tested" the moisture sensors, and they talk about hardcore submersion for a period of time being required to change the color the sensor. You talk to a bunch of other people who clearly have had a lot less exposure, and theirs has changed. Heck, think about it this way: if it really takes *30 seconds* wouldn't all the people who drop theirs in the sink, shower, or even toilet be getting theirs out fast enough not to trip it? It just doesn't add up.

Addendum: check out http://www.cultofmac.com/the-tropics-may-be-too-humid-for-apples-iphone/13571

This suggests that humidity could easily be the culprit after all.

 

[nastebu]

Addendum: check out http://www.cultofmac.com/the-tropics-may-be-too-humid-for-apples-iphone/13571

This suggests that humidity could easily be the culprit after all.

from that link:

"According to forum posts on HardwareZone, Singapore’s wireless carrier Singtel is rejecting warranty claims of iPhones that appear to have suffered water damage, but owners swear up and down their iPhones have never been submerged."

in other words, someone posted something on an Internet forum in Singapore. This is not good evidence.

 

[dukebound85]

And product literature is never wrong, eh? If it were, you'd have crazy things like class action lawsuits. Oh wait.

i was unaware that
1) the sensors are known to be defective
2) there is a class action lawsuit regarding the sensors

now seeing as the above don't apply, where are you going with this? if it was indeed a problem, wouldn't both cases at least be addressed in some manner?

 

[theBB]

Heck, think about it this way: if it really takes *30 seconds* wouldn't all the people who drop theirs in the sink, shower, or even toilet be getting theirs out fast enough not to trip it? It just doesn't add up.

Once the water gets in, it is very difficult to get all of the little droplets, some of which may have landed on the sensor, out of the phone.

Whoever has told you that water damage only leads to permanent problems and not intermittent ones is making things up. You can ignore whatever else he claims.

 

[Maximara]

I'm an ex-genius, and I can tell you the sensors don't trip unless they are wet. And by wet, I mean immersed. Humidity will not set them off, and yes, Apple has tested these LSI (Liquid SUBMERSION Indicator - get it?) devices extensively. Neither does Apple manufacture theses LSIs, they are manufactured by 3M, and everybody uses the same LSIs as Apple. That's wht the Geniuses are so confident in the indicators - we know they don't lie, but people? meh, not so much.

Because of articles like "Mythbusting moisture-detecting stickers/liquid submersion indicators" March 17th, 2009 by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes:

"LSIs are not triggered by high humidity, however, if that water vapor is allowed to condense then any water that condenses on the LSI will trigger it. Keeping a cellphone in a humid car overnight is enough to trigger one or more LSIs. A cellphone in your pocket might suffer the same fate."

The "More details on the immersion sensors of Apple" article points out "The indicators will not be triggered by temperature and humidity that is within the product's environmental requirements described by Apple." and then ends with "Apple indicates that these pastilles cannot turn pink without water, which is false after the tests of 3M."

So there are OTHER known ways other than submersion to trigger a LSI and 3M itself admits it. In fact the name 3M gives these things is "Water Contact Indicator Tape"--contact NOT submersion.

 

[john123]

i was unaware that
1) the sensors are known to be defective
2) there is a class action lawsuit regarding the sensors

now seeing as the above don't apply, where are you going with this? if it was indeed a problem, wouldn't both cases at least be addressed in some manner?

Really? They don't apply? Google for (1); you'll see lots of claims to the contrary. As for (2), I'm guessing you don't work in the legal field, as class action lawsuits usually take quite a long time to form. This applies even in the realm of technology: some common examples would be the lawsuit against Seagate for misrepresentation of drive size, the lawsuit against Epson regarding ink capacity, etc. These both took years for the class to be defined, counsels retained, and litigation to get to the point where the class was notified.

 

[sandalhq]

Can I ask whether the OP has checked whether it's the headphones at fault, rather than the ipod socket? Just wanted to check that's all.

 

[whooleytoo]

One thing to note - did they blow compressed air into the headphone socket to clear it before checking the sensor? Compressed air contains moisture, which is likely to condense in the socket when it expands/cools.

I have no idea if this is enough to 'trip', or partially tinge the sensor, but it's worth bearing in mind.

I think it's inevitable that some of these sensors will give false positives & negatives. Even if only 0.01% of all sensors failed at some point (that would be astonishingly reliable!!) that still equates to over 20,000 false readings and potentially a hell of a lot people unfairly denied a warranty repair/replacement.

As someone said on another thread, it would be far better if you could receive a warning when any moisture warning trips. If you know exactly when it trips, you'd realise what caused it (if it's giving a valid reading) or that the sensor is faulty (if the iPod/iPhone isn't anywhere near moisture).

 

[john123]

I agree with the logic about figuring out when/what trips it. Unfortunately, with the iPhone itself, I don't think that's possible. It would be possible perhaps to get some of the 3M product and craft a device to "simulate" the iPhone experience (i.e., being in crevices of the same size, shape, and temperature), and have a sensor to detect when the reaction takes place. I would assume that in the course of testing 3M did precisely this, although without the iPhone specific part. However, while they're going to release tolerances for liability purposes, they're not going to tell anyone just what conditions outside of stated tolerances might trip the sensor.

 

[kunal123]

Have you tried different earphones? I had the same exact problem and all that had happened was that my earphones stopped working. It can happen due to the wire getting stretched.

 

[dmz]

Entitlement-enhanced Airheads

Intermittent headphones can be an electronic problem, but they can also be a mechanical problem, i.e. dirt/dust/lint gets in the port and prevents a solid electrical connection. I'd say about three out of four intermittent headphones I see in iPods are just that - dirt. Blowing out the port with compressed air (which does NOT contain moisture when used as directed), or digging with a dental pick will usually clear the problem right up - takes less than a minute at the Genius Bar to take care of this problem.

I don't know why someone who has had their iPod/Phone replaced when the LSIs were tripped (I'm talking to you John123) has anything to complain about? You are one of the one-in-a-thousand whose iPod was replaced despite the LSI indicators having indicated. And despite the fact that this supervisor "makes more" than your Genius friend, doesn't mean he has a clue as to what the Genius's capabilities are. Just ask your Genius friend - I would quote you directly from the Apple SOP, but I am not allowed to under the NDA - I assure you that a Genius has the ability to generate an exception for just such a circumstance. Oh, and while you're talking to him, ask him how many people with "tripped" LSIs will swear that their iPod/iPhone was "messed-up" before it got wet, and therefore still qualifies for AppleCare.

Perhaps the Geniuses are jaded by all the whiny, entitlement-enhanced liars they see, they still feel for people who have this problem. If they feel you are telling the truth, and the internal sensors are not tripped - they WILL make an exception, but don't try to pull the wool over their eyes - it won't work. Obviously, john123, you were a reasonable person with a genuine problem, and Apple did the right thing by you.

dmz

 

[john123]

dmz -- Again, I don't dispute that there are thousands of people out there who are trying to pull a fast one. I don't dispute that every single day Apple Genius Bar employees who are just trying to do their jobs have to deal with these folks. I don't dispute that people give Geniuses a hard time in the store about this, and they sometimes do so knowing damn well the issue is their own fault. And I don't dispute that sometimes people think they didn't get their phone wet when it really did (e.g., when out of the user's control).

My only point -- diminished by my getting pissy at the previous Genius who insisted the OP was a liar (and thus taking me way off track from my original post) -- is that there is some incidence of the population that does have a legitimate beef, and that I know so from experience. The reason I commented in this thread to begin with wasn't that I had an axe to grind as much as it was that I raised an eyebrow when so many people ganged up on the OP. And, really, it was about tone more than anything: instead of the early posts in this thread being couched in the form of, "Well, can you really be 100%?" they were accusatory. That's what pushed my button. At the same time, the OP was pretty upset and kneejerky with respect to the guy who explained the Apple policy, so I see how the thread arrived where it did. There's plenty of blame to go around.

I don't blame you guys for being jaded. I would be too if I were in your shoes. My only point was that my own experience suggests to me that the incidence of people who aren't trying to pull a fast one and who didn't let their phone get out of their control is higher than believed here.

 

[dmz]

Common Ground

John123 - Sorry for singling you out of the blowhards - you're not one of them. You seem like a reasonable person, and that's probably why your case was dealt with properly. As to the OP, I truly wish him well, but I have a feeling he's going to be turned down flat.

I'm still chuckling over the responder who suggested putting "a little piece of paper" over the LSI - really? I bet he read that on the internet somewhere. That, for all you blowhards out there, would never work. In fact, you would just be signalling the Genius that you are trying to scam Apple, straight up. Prepare to be escorted to the nearest exit and barred from the Apple Store, and yes, they can and will do that. And yes, you read it right here - on the internet - so it MUST be true!

dmz

 

[ChrisA]

Just a minute.... The warranty says only that damage due to liquid is not covered. Even if the phone had been placed in water and you told them it was, they would have to show that the damage was caused by the water. Read the text of the warranty carefully. A tripped indicator should only be a sign to Apple that they need to look closer for actual damage.

It would be fun to take Apple to small claim court for $150. I'd bet a lot they'd not even show up and you'd win by default. "Who has time for that?" you ask. You can also collect for your cost to takethem to court including time off work, transportation the cost of having papers serves and so on. And there are companies who will do the paper work for you.

 

[john123]

Yeah, the piece of paper suggestion was pretty ridiculous. When I went back to read, I realized that's how this thread really got off on the wrong foot.

As for the damage issue cited by ChrisA: I just whipped out my iPhone 3GS manual/warranty, which reads, "..(c) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, liquid spill or submersion, flood, fire, earthquake, or other external causes." On page 2, in addition, it states, "An iPhone that has been damaged as a result of exposure to liquids is not serviceable."

So, you are right that the use of the word "cause" is in there.

Page 9 makes a specific reference to temperature tolerances (32-95 F for usage) and makes specific reference of "dramatic changes in temperature or humidity when using iPhone as condensation may form on or within iPhone."

I've got a sneaking suspicion that condensation may be the cause of a lot of the problem for a lot of the people who are honestly swearing up and down that they didn't get their phone wet. I got my replacement phone in September, IIRC, and I'd taken two trips to Florida in the summer. I'd kept my iPhone out and about with me. It never got wet, but in moving from conditions that are warm and humid into cool air conditioning, maybe that's how my sensor got tripped? Like the Genius told me at the store, mine was definitely "light pink," so maybe this is all starting to add up.