Other It’s not about privacy for Apple.

[moons_mooniverse]

It’s a business strategy only.

I’m an Apple fan boy (>25 years) like most of you guys. I love my iPhone, iPad and Macs & buy every year new ones.
But one thing really bothers me.
Their constant emphasis on how important privacy is to them even they are not serious about it.

A big claim. I know. But hear me out.


1. Hidden tracker on Apple.com

Visit Apple.com using Safari. No trackers are shown.
Then visit Apple.com using DuckDuckGo. Apple is using it’s own tracker on it’s website.

2. Apple Notes collects the content of your notes and links it to your identity.

3. Apple Music collects your content, location, indentifiers, search history, usage data & more and links it to your identity

I mean with this information alone (notes content, location and music I’m listening to) they know everything about me.

Well I mean I don’t know it you are using Apple Notes or Apple Music as much as I do. But I know that I can not turn these data collecting practices off. (Sure stop using these products, but come on… it’s a way different practice than what they pretend to do)

4. It was Apple who created IDFA for advertisers and enabled it by default.

Yes, Apple enabled “Ask app to track” by default for you. For years!!!

It was Apple who shared your data.

They are not serious about privacy. They created it.


Disabling it by default (after years and years) was a business decision only.

Now that many companies were depending on it, they are turning it of your default.

Why?

To hurt these other companies.

Why?

Because these companies are becoming serious competition in the near future.

Oculus is a very advanced VR device.

I have no doubt that Apples VR headset will be amazing.

But they will be competitors like never before.

(Although I personally would prefer using a headset from Apple, I think it’s not ok to use the power in such a way to hurt other companies and the users.)

 

[VuvuzelaiPhone]

Keep the VR.

Apple is serious about privacy in so far as it is a differentiator for them. Once that is no longer a strategic advantage, they will drop it.

 

[unrigestered]

They say they care about our privacy, but as pretty much anything Aplle says, i wouldn’t be too surprised either if it was only true if viewed from a certain angle, and then use the right interpretation of that to be called “valid“

 

[cthompson94]

The biggest thing that is the difference with other companies is what Apple does with the data. Example is Siri stays on your device unlike Google Assistant... well guess which AI gets talked down on all the time because it isn't as good as the competition...Siri.

You can't possibly want bells and whistles without compromise. The compromise we take with Apple is that basically data stays in house and not sold to anyone and everyone who can write a check. You want curated music playlists? guess what data is needed. Want smart home things to get better? your location is kind of needed. Want better maps with accurate time estimations and whatnot? Data is once again needed.

 

[moons_mooniverse]

You want curated music playlists? guess what data is needed. Want smart home things to get better? your location is kind of needed. Want better maps with accurate time estimations and whatnot? Data is once again needed.

The thing is they say I’m in full control of my data. I share only the data I want. I don’t see this option here. Where can I turn off to what music I am listening to if I don’t want these playlists?

 

[dmr727]

Meh. Apple is a company like any other and is all about maximizing shareholder value. At the moment the fact that they're more hardware focused than the others makes what they do with the data feel less 'slimy' to me, but I realize that can change with their business goals. They've admitted that they're focusing on increasing their advertising revenue, so perhaps the lines are blurring already.

It's all just another reminder to not get emotionally attached to any of this stuff. If you want to be able to participate in the digital economy, it pretty much boils down to spending your money with whatever feels the less gross.

 

[Spudlicious]

Meh. Apple is a company like any other and is all about maximizing shareholder value. At the moment the fact that they're more hardware focused than the others makes what they do with the data feel less 'slimy' to me, but I realize that can change with their business goals. They've admitted that they're focusing on increasing their advertising revenue, so perhaps the lines are blurring already.

It's all just another reminder to not get emotionally attached to any of this stuff. If you want to be able to participate in the digital economy, it pretty much boils down to spending your money with whatever feels the less gross.

<my emphasis in the quoted text>

He's not wrong, he can't possibly be wrong.

 

[cthompson94]

The

The thing is they say I’m in full control of my data. I share only the data I want. I don’t see this option here. Where can I turn off to what music I am listening to if I don’t want these playlists?

The option is using Apple services or not. I personally do not like that being the option too, but realistically what choice do you have? Sure for the music part you can just go back to purchasing and downloading your own music and only listening to what you have on your phone locally, but what about whatever other service like maps.

Taking a look at their privacy page https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ it is pretty laid out what is done and there is even a page you can break down each specific Apple stock app to determine if it meets your privacy requests.

 

[eyoungren]

Privacy versus convenience. People complain about Google, but for the most part Google admits that you are the product and allows you turn on privacy settings.

I might ask you (and other Apple users) a question, which is, why are you all in? Why voluntarily participate?

1. Hidden tracker on Apple.com

Visit Apple.com using Safari. No trackers are shown.

Then visit Apple.com using DuckDuckGo. Apple is using it’s own tracker on it’s website.

I use Vivaldi on my Macs, with the uMatrix extension which allows me to block trackers and determine which third party websites are allowed to load. I am in control.

Since taking control, every browser I've used as my primary browser has had some sort of tracking/ad blocker installed.

Don't like uMatrix, there's uBlock Origin or NoScript.

Why continue to use Safari when you know this?

2. Apple Notes collects the content of your notes and links it to your identity.

Any notes I have are linked to my Google account. I use Google Keep anyway, so Apple isn't accessing that.

Why not a different notes app?

3. Apple Music collects your content, location, indentifiers, search history, usage data & more and links it to your identity

With all the third party music apps out there, is there still some reason you're using Apple Music (beyond convenience)?

I mean with this information alone (notes content, location and music I’m listening to) they know everything about me.

Possibly Apple does for me as well - but not because of notes and music.

I don't believe in keeping all my eggs in one basket. I may use Apple devices and computers, but I am not and will not be beholden to their services.

But other services violate my privacy too. So, it's a matter of balancing my convenience and refusal to depend on any singular service for all things with what I am willing to give up.

The only way to be completely sure is to never use the internet or a connected device at all.

 

[eyoungren]

…but realistically what choice do you have?

Third party services.

 

[Jackbequickly]

I will take Apple o er Android any day for security. If Google is involved, they hacked it.

 

[eyoungren]

I will take Apple o er Android any day for security. If Google is involved, they hacked it.

Google provides a way for me to blur my house on Google Street view. Which I have done.

I see that Apple Maps does not, when I tap on the binocs.

 

[mzeb]

I get where you're coming from but "serious" is a funny choice of words.

I'd argue they are very serious about privacy because it makes them money. That is from the business standpoint.

But I also know a few Apple engineers that I have worked pretty closely with (I have not worked at Apple myself). They are also serious about privacy because of their own morals. Don't get me wrong, they harbor no illusions about the business' motivations. But for now, the business and employees direction aligns.

You make an interesting statement about Apple creating privacy. I partially agree here. The EFF and many others had been championing it long before Applebut Apple marketing leveraged this movement when they saw a business advantage. Perhaps they didn't created but certainly started to shape a public perception with their current marketing campaign and that appearance is important but saying they created it feels a little sensationalist as well.

I would take a strong argument against your perceptions of IDFA. Back in the early 2000s when it was created it was a very different world than where we are now. It seemed like a fine idea at the time when the really scary parts of user tracking combined with big data were not yet realized. We certainly see it now and it was not the best technology to protect people in retrospect. To think that Apple created it and then turned it off specifically as a business tactic leans into conspiracy unless you have solid evidence otherwise.

So while I don't think Apple's motives are pure I do think they are very serious about privacy as it is currently a moneymaker and something their employees believe in. It's a very good position to take.

 

[Apple_Robert]

It is hard to take the OP seriously because he keeps buying Apple, even though he doesn't believe in them nor like what they are doing with something as important as privacy.

Please go back and edit your post. It is very had to read the way it is now. It looks like you cut an pasted and doing that made a real mess.

 

[moons_mooniverse]

Why not a different notes app?

Because I’m making use of notes very heavily for years now. I have more than 9000 notes now. Export is nearly impossible. Apple offers only export as .pdf. Trying to switch right now since I got some help (automations) in another thread a couple of days ago.

 

[eyoungren]

Because I’m making use of notes very heavily for years now. I have more than 9000 notes now. Export is nearly impossible. Apple offers only export as .pdf. Trying to switch right now since I got some help (automations) in another thread a couple of days ago.

Glad you're trying to switch.

That's a good example though of why I don't go all in on this. Of course, my first real iPhone would not sync with the PowerBook G4 I had at the time so it did force me to use alternative methods from the start.

 

[cthompson94]

Third party services.

Google provides a way for me to blur my house on Google Street view. Which I have done.

I see that Apple Maps does not, when I tap on the binocs.

Your example of a third party service is Google? The information taking and selling King? The company that’s main way to make money is through advertising with your information? I don’t know how to take this thread serious anymore…so what you can blur your house? Have you also checked google earth? What about any other app that utilizes google maps? Your house being blurred is basically pointless. Have you ordered things or bought things that require a billing/shipping address? Have those companies ever had a data breach? If the answer is yes then your info including name and address is already in other peoples hands

 

[eyoungren]

Your example of a third party service is Google? The information taking and selling King? The company that’s main way to make money is through advertising with your information? I don’t know how to take this thread serious anymore…so what you can blur your house? Have you also checked google earth? What about any other app that utilizes google maps? Your house being blurred is basically pointless. Have you ordered things or bought things that require a billing/shipping address? Have those companies ever had a data breach? If the answer is yes then your info including name and address is already in other peoples hands

Did you miss this part of my earlier post (not the one you quoted)? I'll quote myself for you…

People complain about Google, but for the most part Google admits that you are the product and allows you turn on privacy settings.

How about the last sentence of my previous post? Here again…

The only way to be completely sure is to never use the internet or a connected device at all.

But to answer your question, yes. Google is a third party service. They provide email, calendars, docs, drive, contacts, notes and some other stuff (such as Chat which I have to use for work).

So is Yahoo, btw. I've had my Yahoo email address for 23 years.

I harbor no illusions about things, but if perhaps, you are promoting Apple as valuing your privacy beyond just being a business decision, at some point you may find your faith betrayed.

But yes, if someone really wanted to see my house and had my address they could find it. I'm just trying to put stumbling blocks out there, not lock down an identity that's already escaped the barn.

BTW, Dropbox is also a third party service, along with Box, One Drive and other Cloud companies. I use those too.

 

[appleguy123]

I think it’s very deliberate that Apple is only focusing on the privacy issues of targeted ads and never about how targeted ads are more effective at taking the money of the person who sees them(an actively hostile “feature” of any software). I guarantee Apple’s silicon team is working on a separate processor like the T2 that uses AI to target ads to users on device. Features like “live text” and “automatic subject selection” are biproducts of that work and it’s easy to disguise work on this as they also work on an Augmented Reality headset. An advertising chip that can privately process all the information you take in from the digital and physical world is their end game, and Apple will get a cut every time an app wants to make a call to this processor to serve a “privacy respecting ad.” It would give them an effective monopoly on ad revenue generated from iPhone users and keep their revenue growing exponentially for several more years.

 

[Mr. Dee]

They only care about it because it sounds good and they are in a strategic position to trumpet it. The only reason why they are against Meta is because they can’t get any of their revenue. Which is why they retaliated with the Do Not Track. Which is not a bad thing. But I just don’t believe at their core they really care. It’s really a business strategy and weapon against competitors.

I wouldn’t be surprised once Cook exits Apple Park for the last time they throw it out the window. Look at how quick they were to undo all of Jony Ives flaws?

 

[eyoungren]

Look at how quick they were to undo all of Jony Ives flaws?

I just want to point out that undoing flaws (fixing a problem) is a good thing. Particularly any flaws (problems) Jony Ive created.



But the rest I agree with you.

 

[moons_mooniverse]

I would take a strong argument against your perceptions of IDFA. Back in the early 2000s when it was created it was a very different world than where we are now. It seemed like a fine idea at the time when the really scary parts of user tracking combined with big data were not yet realized. We certainly see it now and it was not the best technology to protect people in retrospect. To think that Apple created it and then turned it off specifically as a business tactic leans into conspiracy unless you have solid evidence otherwise.

Thanks for your comment mzeb!! You are right that I have no solid evidence about that.
But let me share some thoughts about this.

Every company should think about future business strategies. And tech companies are doing so very wisely an very long in advanced. Facebook bought Oculus in 2014. Google hired Sebastian Thrun in 2005 to start working on self-driving cars. 2 examples for technologies that are still not there where the companies want them to be. In both cases the idea behind both ventures is probably a couple of years older.

So is it far fetched to think that Apple started thinking about privacy as a business advantage 20 years ago? Instead a huge privacy discussion for this time was predicted 30 years ago by Ray Kurzweil. His predictions are for many sillicon valley companies an inspiration.

But I don’t think that creating IDFA was purely a trap. Instead it was a great feature and made it more attractive for app developers to create apps for the App Store.

What bothers me is that Apple created this issue but today says “It’s the other guys who are tracking you and we are the good guys and help you.”

 

[cthompson94]

Did you miss this part of my earlier post (not the one you quoted)? I'll quote myself for you…



How about the last sentence of my previous post? Here again…



But to answer your question, yes. Google is a third party service. They provide email, calendars, docs, drive, contacts, notes and some other stuff (such as Chat which I have to use for work).

So does Yahoo, btw. I've had my Yahoo email address for 23 years.

I harbor no illusions about things, but if perhaps, you are promoting Apple as valuing your privacy beyond just being a business decision, at some point you may find your faith betrayed.

But yes, if someone really wanted to see my house and had my address they could find it. I'm just trying to put stumbling blocks out there, not lock down an identity that's already escaped the barn.

BTW, Dropbox is also a third party service, along with Box, One Drive and other Cloud companies. I use those too.

I do not believe that Apple values my privacy but Apple has been pretty forthcoming about not selling my information. I know all day long that they have countless amounts of my information, going back to my original comment I value my information not being sold basically. I personally don’t care how open Google is about what they do with my data because it’s already crossed a line to me so I try not to utilize google as much as possible.

While another service like Dropbox may not sell your information, they are open about giving information to partners and one being Facebook along with tracking among other apps. What I am trying to get at is to me personally, again my personal mindset feel more comfortable with keeping my info as in-house as possible and certainly not oblivious to Apples data collection, but one of the biggest differences is they don’t make money off of that since they are mainly a hardware company and one that doesn’t sell out like for example some android makers having some apps pre installed social medias and various 3rd party apps sometimes making it a pain to remove without rooting.

Going tack to your original post, your examples of not being able to turn off data collecting in notes also isn’t available in any other notes app. When you use another app like notability or good notes or Samsung notes or whatever app and create the account to use that app you agree to those terms and conditions. It’s picking the lesser of evils that you decide on and the apple notes app lets you encrypt with end to end encryption and I’m fine with that personally. I do have notability for when I was in college and I cannot remember if I could encrypt those, but I knew going into the app that data was still going to be collected by them.

Apple has also been historically less likely to provide information to even law enforcement at various levels even when they could, but the fact that sometimes it’s because they can’t hence the government trying really hard to get tech companies to allow back doors is a good indicator to me

 

[moons_mooniverse]

It is hard to take the OP seriously because he keeps buying Apple, even though he doesn't believe in them nor like what they are doing with something as important as privacy.

Please go back and edit your post. It is very had to read the way it is now. It looks like you cut an pasted and doing that made a real mess.

I went back and edited my post (clean it up a bit).

I believe in Apple products and love them. I just don’t like the claim that they take privacy so serious and let it seem that they are the good guys when they are not. I personally don’t see my privacy as important as many others.

I don’t like how they make use of their power. For examples turning IDFA of by default on iOS 15.4 although it was them who created it to attract more developers. The message “Ask app not to track” suggests for most user “Oh, the evil app wants to track me. No, I don’t want this.”
But it all started with Apple tracking their users and sharing this data with app developers without asking them.

 

[eyoungren]

I do not believe that Apple values my privacy but Apple has been pretty forthcoming about not selling my information. I know all day long that they have countless amounts of my information, going back to my original comment I value my information not being sold basically. I personally don’t care how open Google is about what they do with my data because it’s already crossed a line to me so I try not to utilize google as much as possible.

While another service like Dropbox may not sell your information, they are open about giving information to partners and one being Facebook along with tracking among other apps. What I am trying to get at is to me personally, again my personal mindset feel more comfortable with keeping my info as in-house as possible and certainly not oblivious to Apples data collection, but one of the biggest differences is they don’t make money off of that since they are mainly a hardware company and one that doesn’t sell out like for example some android makers having some apps pre installed social medias and various 3rd party apps sometimes making it a pain to remove without rooting.

Going tack to your original post, your examples of not being able to turn off data collecting in notes also isn’t available in any other notes app. When you use another app like notability or good notes or Samsung notes or whatever app and create the account to use that app you agree to those terms and conditions. It’s picking the lesser of evils that you decide on and the apple notes app lets you encrypt with end to end encryption and I’m fine with that personally. I do have notability for when I was in college and I cannot remember if I could encrypt those, but I knew going into the app that data was still going to be collected by them.

Apple has also been historically less likely to provide information to even law enforcement at various levels even when they could, but the fact that sometimes it’s because they can’t hence the government trying really hard to get tech companies to allow back doors is a good indicator to me

Yeah, I don't trust the third party services I use either. But that's another reason I don't keep everything with one single service. In regards to Dropbox, anything sensitive is either in an encrypted DMG or handled using Boxcryptor.

I don't use Google or Yahoo for anything private. In fact, my Yahoo email is solely used for anything I expect to get spam from. I also am not using the email from my Apple ID with anything important either. Basically, I never use it (except for maybe iMessage on a couple phones that don't have cellular).

I give the services I use the bare minimum they need to function and that's it. But, like you, I know the terms going in.

Finally, I deleted my Facebook account in February 2017 - so if any service is stealing FB information it isn't my FB information. This was after using a browser script to strip everything I'd ever posted (pics, posts, notes, etc) off my wall before deletion. I have one Twitter account and that's logged in to and used for the express purpose of contacting T-Mobile's T-Force. I don't use it for anything else and log out whenever I'm done.