Other It’s not about privacy for Apple.

[War833]

Of course it is a business strategy. They are a company. Their purpose is to make and sell products that people want.

However, that doesn't diminish the good things they've done in privacy, any more than it does effects of their strategies in other areas.

 

[HiVolt]

The biggest thing that is the difference with other companies is what Apple does with the data. Example is Siri stays on your device unlike Google Assistant... well guess which AI gets talked down on all the time because it isn't as good as the competition...Siri.

That's what they tell us. But has anyone actually verified what Apple does with the data they collect? Nope.

Yeah I'm glad its not a dumpster fire like google or facebook, but I don't think its all that it's hyped up to be...

I've always liked that the Apple devices are not loaded with advertising, and the price premium was worth it... But with recent news that they might start inserting ads into more of their apps is troubling... Soon we'll likely have to pay a subscription fee to be ad free on the in-house Apple apps...

 

[Feyl]

China and Russia could say a word or two about how serious Apple is about privacy. Oh and don’t forget government entities like FBI, etc.

 

[mzeb]

Thanks for your comment mzeb!! You are right that I have no solid evidence about that.
But let me share some thoughts about this.

Every company should think about future business strategies. And tech companies are doing so very wisely an very long in advanced. Facebook bought Oculus in 2014. Google hired Sebastian Thrun in 2005 to start working on self-driving cars. 2 examples for technologies that are still not there where the companies want them to be. In both cases the idea behind both ventures is probably a couple of years older.

So is it far fetched to think that Apple started thinking about privacy as a business advantage 20 years ago? Instead a huge privacy discussion for this time was predicted 30 years ago by Ray Kurzweil. His predictions are for many sillicon valley companies an inspiration.

But I don’t think that creating IDFA was purely a trap. Instead it was a great feature and made it more attractive for app developers to create apps for the App Store.

What bothers me is that Apple created this issue but today says “It’s the other guys who are tracking you and we are the good guys and help you.”

I've been through tech companies big and small as an engineer, manager and director and that experience makes me think you're giving them too much credit 😁.

It's very much a scattergun approach with research hires and acquisitions. In the four years I was at MS they bought over a thousand companies (most of them small) and MS Research grew by 10%. Apple, Google, and FB are no different. They've all made investments and acquisitions in these spaces but we'll see when they pan out.

Back to the point on privacy, you ain't wrong about the Apple about face and them pointing the finger. That's how they play though. Windows Phone 7 (remember that?) rolled out during my MS tenure and immediately Google pointed to Apple and MS saying "OMG, they're so close source! They're bad!" Just months before the final WP7 release google had started a push to contribute more back to the open source community and finished their transition to making Android open source. I'm sure that was just coincidence... Different context same marketing tactic.

I'll give you a fun bit on Apple being serious about privacy, though. My most recent gig as an engineer was at the company that writes primary Apple's log aggregation tool. Let there be no doubt that they collect a LOT of data (I've seen chunks of it).

But they are also some of the best at anonymizing it and making sure they only collect what they need and don't keep more than they have to. Part of this is the engineering mentality I mentioned above, part is storing that data costs money, and part is the lawyers there know what kind of a lawsuit they'd have on their hands if data leaks. The less data you have the less of a liability you have.

FB uses that same tool. I have seen chunks of their data as well. Let's just say I'm less impressed with what FB chooses to keep on users. This isn't surprising though, it's how FB makes their money. Their users are their product.

Which brings me to an important point on why I think Apple IS serious about privacy. They don't sell their data. That data is worth a boatload of money if they chose to and they do not. (They do share with research partners like the collars they do with health studies and such, but they don't get a lot of money back there via direct channels.)

This last bit is a compelling reason for the Apple VR headset over the FB Oculus. I personally have a bit of an inside scoop, admittedly, but when considering who cares about privacy (at least more than the others) you can also trace the dollar. Do I trust a company that sells me a product or a company who makes my data their product more with my privacy more?

And I'll always think of this in a shade of grey. It isn't which company is good about my privacy. None of them are. It's which one is the best and I'll choose that one because be damned if I'm living without a smartphone these days and I'll have to compromise that a bit and accept it.

 

[Mr. Dee]

I just want to point out that undoing flaws (fixing a problem) is a good thing. Particularly any flaws (problems) Jony Ive created.



But the rest I agree with you.

What I really mean is, this talk of Apple culture having a specific DNA is just made up fantasy. The company can and does change its mind and strategy. When they saw how popular the Galaxy Note was, they responded with the iPhone 6 Plus. Also claimed there is no room for an iPad Mini, but they eventually did release one. At the end of the day, they are business, so we shouldn't be surprised. But just don't fall too deep into their do good PR.

 

[Shh]

All you have to do is look at what they're doing to their Chinese customers and that's all you need to know about how important privacy actually is to Apple. Money talks. They're just like every other Big Tech company. They even lobbied against a bill that would reduce the amount of slave labor happening. They're a vile company when you look beyond all the smoke and mirrors. Same as any other Big Tech company. I no longer use their products because of their false claims about privacy. I use their products because it allows me to get work done more efficiently. At this point it's just picking your poison. Privacy is an illusion these days. Apple isn't any better than Google or Facebook at this point, except maybe in regards to censorship. Apple hasn't jumped on that bandwagon as deep as them, but they do remove apps at the request of the CCP. They're beholden to China in very bad ways.

 

[moons_mooniverse]

I've been through tech companies big and small as an engineer, manager and director and that experience makes me think you're giving them too much credit 😁.

It's very much a scattergun approach with research hires and acquisitions. In the four years I was at MS they bought over a thousand companies (most of them small) and MS Research grew by 10%. Apple, Google, and FB are no different. They've all made investments and acquisitions in these spaces but we'll see when they pan out.

Back to the point on privacy, you ain't wrong about the Apple about face and them pointing the finger. That's how they play though. Windows Phone 7 (remember that?) rolled out during my MS tenure and immediately Google pointed to Apple and MS saying "OMG, they're so close source! They're bad!" Just months before the final WP7 release google had started a push to contribute more back to the open source community and finished their transition to making Android open source. I'm sure that was just coincidence... Different context same marketing tactic.

I'll give you a fun bit on Apple being serious about privacy, though. My most recent gig as an engineer was at the company that writes primary Apple's log aggregation tool. Let there be no doubt that they collect a LOT of data (I've seen chunks of it).

But they are also some of the best at anonymizing it and making sure they only collect what they need and don't keep more than they have to. Part of this is the engineering mentality I mentioned above, part is storing that data costs money, and part is the lawyers there know what kind of a lawsuit they'd have on their hands if data leaks. The less data you have the less of a liability you have.

FB uses that same tool. I have seen chunks of their data as well. Let's just say I'm less impressed with what FB chooses to keep on users. This isn't surprising though, it's how FB makes their money. Their users are their product.

Which brings me to an important point on why I think Apple IS serious about privacy. They don't sell their data. That data is worth a boatload of money if they chose to and they do not. (They do share with research partners like the collars they do with health studies and such, but they don't get a lot of money back there via direct channels.)

This last bit is a compelling reason for the Apple VR headset over the FB Oculus. I personally have a bit of an inside scoop, admittedly, but when considering who cares about privacy (at least more than the others) you can also trace the dollar. Do I trust a company that sells me a product or a company who makes my data their product more with my privacy more?

And I'll always think of this in a shade of grey. It isn't which company is good about my privacy. None of them are. It's which one is the best and I'll choose that one because be damned if I'm living without a smartphone these days and I'll have to compromise that a bit and accept it.

Hey mzeb, I really appreciate your insides and the nice conversation!!

 

[ian87w]

Of course, it's not just about privacy. Apple is also using it as a selling point. But at the same time, from all the tech giants out there, Apple seems to be the only one that at least still taking steps to maintain privacy despite the onslaughts of data hoarding mentality of pretty much all of silicon valley.

In this modern age, we cannot live normally like a luddite. Increasingly, having a smartphone and be tech aware has become a requirement, not a nice-to-have anymore. In my country, more and more government services are provided digitally via whatsapp and/or a specific app(s). As we increasingly have our personal information on our phone, it's becoming crucial to at least pick the lesser evil. Right now, the choice is either Apple/iOS or Google/Android (or Huawei/HarmonyOS if you like living on the edge).

The question is, Apple seems to be infiltrated by people who think privacy is less important than "safety." Take the CSAM debacle, and how one of Apple's own privacy guy literally said if you did nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. That should be a huge red flag for Apple's management. Again, majority of silicon valley pretty much don't care a bit about privacy, and a huge segment of the population there obviously think the same as well. As these people infiltrated Apple, we might see more and more privacy eroding "features" from Apple.

Steve Jobs' stance on privacy is very clear. Get consent and opt in. I really hope Tim Cook and whoever his successor is will keep vigilant from those silicon valley leeches.

 

[Shirasaki]

To let a business become a long lasting one, it would need to see through the money. Absolute maximum stakeholder benefit can only benefit so many people and leave everyone else agitated. I have given up hope on privacy protection decades ago, knowing very Well The internet essentially killed it. Apple keeping touting privacy has nothing to do with protecting user privacy, but to lure people into giving their data to Apple, which then creates a new revenue stream, and benefit stakeholders.

Another thing I believe is unlimited growth will never last very long, because we are all competing with limited resources. In the privacy regard, monetise-able population is one of those limited resources, otherwise why apple got agitated by Facebook and start an all out campaign against them In the name of “privacy”? The only way apple can sustain the unsustainable unlimited growth is by luring people that can spend a lot into their own ecosystem, thus they tout privacy protection as much as they can, and use misleading graphs and numbers in their M1 M2 MacBook ads etc etc (they are amazing, but nowhere near 4x 7x 10x amazing). They are all business tools used To compete the finite number of people with massive purchasing power.

As such, when privacy is no longer working as a tool To Lure Those people, Apple will throw it away asap just like they threw repairability away when non-reparable becomes more profitable.

 

[ndouglas]

That's what they tell us. But has anyone actually verified what Apple does with the data they collect? Nope.

Yeah I'm glad its not a dumpster fire like google or facebook, but I don't think its all that it's hyped up to be...

It’s sad that the bar is so freakin’ low, but yeah Apple (sometimes or even usually) is less of a “dumpster fire like google or facebook” or most other companies so … as noted by others above, perhaps they win the “most serious about privacy“ award in a world with nearly zero competition in that area.

 

[max2]

Wow it is even almost.

 

[mzeb]

Hey mzeb, I really appreciate your insides and the nice conversation!!

Happy to oblige. Though truly, those that take the time to read and understand are the ones to be thanked.

While I agree with @Apple_Robert that your post was more difficult to read than some you would not have put in the effort to post without a reason. We don’t all talk and write and think the same. The least I can do is put in the time to try to understand.

 

[Wildkraut]

The biggest thing that is the difference with other companies is what Apple does with the data. Example is Siri stays on your device unlike Google Assistant... well guess which AI gets talked down on all the time because it isn't as good as the competition...Siri.

You can't possibly want bells and whistles without compromise. The compromise we take with Apple is that basically data stays in house and not sold to anyone and everyone who can write a check. You want curated music playlists? guess what data is needed. Want smart home things to get better? your location is kind of needed. Want better maps with accurate time estimations and whatnot? Data is once again needed.

I prefer to have multiple companies, each one possessing a small portion of my data, than a single company possessing it all.

 

[ratspg]

Google provides a way for me to blur my house on Google Street view. Which I have done.

I see that Apple Maps does not, when I tap on the binocs.

You definitely can blur your home with Apple Maps I’ve done it.

 

[twdawson]

If you value privacy then don’t using a connected device.I am very cautious about what data I put in any service.

It can be a scary world out there.

 

[Jackbequickly]

Google provides a way for me to blur my house on Google Street view. Which I have done.

I see that Apple Maps does not, when I tap on the binocs.\

Your lawn needs mowing😀

 

[johnmacward]

It is hard to take the OP seriously because he keeps buying Apple, even though he doesn't believe in them nor like what they are doing with something as important as privacy.

Please go back and edit your post. It is very had to read the way it is now. It looks like you cut an pasted and doing that made a real mess.

Equally hard to take someone who sets the Stars and Stripes and an eagle as their profile photo. You’re aware of that countries human rights abuses and history of violent intervention just about everywhere . At least OP can admit to loyalty AND show his scepticism at the same time about that continued loyalty. Fanboyism and patriotism (both dangerous concepts) are close bedfellows.

 

[Elinore]

What I really mean is, this talk of Apple culture having a specific DNA is just made up fantasy. The company can and does change its mind and strategy. When they saw how popular the Galaxy Note was, they responded with the iPhone 6 Plus. Also claimed there is no room for an iPad Mini, but they eventually did release one. At the end of the day, they are business, so we shouldn't be surprised. But just don't fall too deep into their do good PR.

I see your point. But changing the mind about the shape and form factor of specific gadgets is about some quite different dimension of strategy shift compared to changing the basic way of how to deal with privacy, because the latter can be relevant for user's security of life and wealth, the former won't.

My impression is that Apple does indeed understands that privacy matters and even if they take it seriously just because this is good for their business, it is good for me anyway.

 

[uczcret]

You definitely can blur your home with Apple Maps I’ve done it.

As @ian87w noted, with government services in multiple countries increasingly relying on smartphone apps, it's becoming impossible not to use a smartphone connected to the internet, and it will only become even less possible in the future.

 

[DavidChoux]

It's all absolute BS.

They're a for-profit company. End of. They have this facade of evangelism supporting everything that comes into 'fashion', be it racial equality, LGBTQ rights or whatever comes up. (I'm not saying these issues are not important - they most certainly are - I'm just saying Apple likes to exploit them).

Other than that, they don't give a sh*t. They don't even care about the welfare and health of the workers making their products in China (Yes, Foxconn is not part of Apple, but they obviously have to have some responsibility over who they use).

Don't believe for one second that Apple is serious about justice, equality, the environment, even privacy, or anything like that. If you can't see it's all just marketing you're quite simply an idiot. Sorry, but I have to say it like that. If you think Apple is absolutely serious about these issues, and would put them before profit, you are an idiot.

Unfortunately, that's the same for most big companies in this world.


.....
(edit: grammar, added environmental issues, and some visual touches for your enjoyment)

 

[unrigestered]

but aren't they saving the environment by pushing the production of "unrepairable" products like (almost) no other?

(yes, others do too, but many of them "simply" followed suit)

 

[Feyl]

It's all absolute BS.

They're a for-profit company. End of. They have this facade of evangelism supporting everything that comes into 'fashion', be it racial equality, LGBTQ or whatever comes up. (I'm not saying these issues are not important - they most certainly are - I'm just saying Apple likes to exploit them).

Other than that, they don't give a sh*t. They don't even care about the welfare and health of the workers making their products in China (Yes, Foxconn is not part of Apple, but they obviously have to have some responsibility over who they use).

Don't believe for one second that Apple is serious about justice, equality, even privacy, or anything like that. If you can't see it's all just marketing you're quite simply an idiot. Sorry, but I have to say it like that. If you think Apple is absolutely serious about these issues, and would put this before profit, you are an idiot.

Unfortunately, that's the same for most big companies in this world.

Unfortunately, many people are very naive and have romantic ideals even in this broken world. You put it well. And it's the truth. Apple and other big companies are in one word hypocrites.

 

[Abazigal]

I think a lot of this needs to be viewed in context.

Apple defines tracking as an app following you across apps and websites from other companies with the goal of creating a personalized profile. Since third-party apps and websites are involved, the implication is there is also data transfer / mixing / crossing present.

Apple is not lying when saying it’s apps don't fall under the scope of ATT since its apps (i.e. the App Store) aren’t doing what ATT is aimed at alerting Apple users about. The way Apple defines tracking is also in-line with how the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) defines tracking.

Apple’s ads business is based on collecting first-party data from Apple-owned apps. No data is transferred or crossed with third-parties in order to create personalized user profiles. In addition, cohort data isn’t compromised so that third-parties are able to discern more granular information about individuals included in the cohorts.

In addition, Apple is not against tracking, but they do make this known upfront, and give users the choice to opt out (as is with the case of ATT, as well as privacy controls like the ability to see when app is trying to connect to bluetooth). I believe about 80% of App Store users have opted out of personalised ads?

At the end of the day, I believe Apple when they claim to be serious about privacy, at least more so than other companies, but people do need to be realistic as to what sort of privacy Apple is championing. They are not offering blanket privacy, but at the end of the day, it's still nice to be able to have first party alternatives to apps like google maps, chrome and drive.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Equally hard to take someone who sets the Stars and Stripes and an eagle as their profile photo. You’re aware of that countries human rights abuses and history of violent intervention just about everywhere . At least OP can admit to loyalty AND show his scepticism at the same time about that continued loyalty. Fanboyism and patriotism (both dangerous concepts) are close bedfellows.

My country has nothing to do with what I said to him and neither does your comment. You are bringing up a topic that the OP did not. If he had, I would have addressed it. Read his post again. You are way off base.

 

[leman]

2. Apple Notes collects the content of your notes and links it to your identity.

I'm curious about this claim. Do you have a reference on this?