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itv(apple tv) only for widescreens?

markie said:
1. Widescren sources wouldn't naturally be letterboxed - they'd be distorted - stretched vertically. The letterboxing is done in the source usually (notice the difference between Letterboxed 4:3 and Widescreen modes on your DVD player). SOME, but very few TVs can do letterboxing internally.
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Yeah, I forgot about those few times I set my DVD player to widescreen on my old 4:3 television. It does stretch it vertically to fill the entire screen and it does look distorted.

markie said:
2. Even more significantly - sorry, it won't work anyway. Even converting the cable type doesn't change the resolution. You're made problem is the Apple TV's lowest resolution is 480p and your TV's highest resolution is 480i (which is actually half the resolution - with different lines displayed in alternating (interlaced) frames).
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480p and 480i are the exact same resolution. The only difference is that 480p renders 480 lines of the frame 60 times a second while 480i only renders every other line of each frame 60 times a second. There is obviously enough data there for a 480i set to render it properly, but the issue is will it simply discard every other line or will it instead just display nothing.

There's a simple way to solve this. Anyone out there have an HD cable box hooked up via component to a 4:3 TV? Most of those cable boxes have a setup mode that lets you set the resolution. Mine has 480i/480p/720i/720p/1080i/1080p and will let you run through each resolution to see if it displays properly. Its designed so that you won't suddenly flip to a channel that is passing an unsupported resolution, instead the cable box will convert it to some other supported resolution. Anyway all someone has to do is set it to 480p and see if you get an picture. Its probably a long shot, but hopefully this will put this one to rest once and for all.

EDIT: or even easier, anyone with a progressive scan DVD player hooked up to a 4:3 480i TV via component, does the TV display a picture when progressive output is enabled?
 
tried with dvd player

hey i have a bose lifestyle all in one dvd player with cd/mp3/video.

so i put in a dvd into it and went to settings and changed video on a dvd to 16:9 widescreen.

when i played the dvd the video was not changed it just took up the whole screen?

does this show anything or mean anything towards me buying the itv?
 
"480p and 480i are the exact same resolution. The only difference is that 480p renders 480 lines of the frame 60 times a second while 480i only renders every other line of each frame 60 times a second. There is obviously enough data there for a 480i set to render it properly, but the issue is will it simply discard every other line or will it instead just display nothing."

No. It's NOT the same resolution. 480i is really 240 lines. I.e. 720x240 vs 720x480.

And no, the TV won't just discard lines (and it would look horrid if it did without proper scaling) - it'll either show nothing or be all scrambled if it doesn't run progressive scan.
 
hey thanks for the reply but what are u saying

i dont understand what u are saying

so will itv work on my tv?
 
Hook up a progressive scan DVD player to it. Hook it up using component connections (no component - no luck!) and set the output on the DVD player to progressive scan and 16:9 widescreen.

If it works, then the Apple TV will work. Make sure you're using component outs (red green and blue) - your DVD player's composite and S-Video are always interlaced.
 
markie said:
"480p and 480i are the exact same resolution. The only difference is that 480p renders 480 lines of the frame 60 times a second while 480i only renders every other line of each frame 60 times a second. There is obviously enough data there for a 480i set to render it properly, but the issue is will it simply discard every other line or will it instead just display nothing."

No. It's NOT the same resolution. 480i is really 240 lines. I.e. 720x240 vs 720x480.

And no, the TV won't just discard lines (and it would look horrid if it did without proper scaling) - it'll either show nothing or be all scrambled if it doesn't run progressive scan.
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Yes it is. Both 480i and 480p are 720x480, with 480 lines of vertical resolution. Whether or not all 480 lines are filled at the time with 480i is inconsequential, it just takes 2 frames for it to completely fill in the data in those 480 lines. And if you still need convincing, I suggest you make a trip to wikipedia.

At this point I have seen conflicting sources, not appleTV or even mac related sources, on this issue. Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't. So I guess we won't find out for certain until someone tries an AppleTV with a 480i set.
 
Buy a Mac Mini and an Adapter

The Mac mini makes a much more suitable unit than Apple TV anyway - anyone can use a macmini with an adapter - granted you may not get HD quality it still plays any media formats and really do you need HD - apple used to be a company based on functionality and creative tools now they are just making toys for the middle class - the new products that were announced at Macworld are very nice "Toys" -
 
"Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't."

Some are clueless and some aren't. 480p is too high for the monitor to handle. Set a computer too high of resolution and refresh rate for the monitor. Same thing. I GUARANTEE you that if this thing outputs 480p it won't work with a normal TV. Of course, it's also almost certainly capable of 480i output, but according to the specs, it doesn't do it. Just like iBooks are capable of dual monitor but it's locked out - doesn't mean it can't be unlocked :)

480i is really x240 not x480. In each frame alternating lines are displayed to create the illusion of x480. This can be deinterlaced to create 30 fps progressive. In fact, TV is often said to be 30 x480 frames per second. It's not. It's 60 x240 frames and how the TV displays it creates the illusion of a 480 line picture. Really you're seeing alternating, slightly offset, 240 line pictures.
 
Although it looks like the Apple TV won't support 480i, so the OP won't be able to use it directly, I wonder if there is some third party hardware box that downconverts the HD signal from the Apple TV to 480i? I know there are hardware upconverters, but I wonder if they sell ones that work in the other way...
 
markie said:
Correct, it won't per the specs send 480i. But I doubt it's an "issue." My guess is it's an intentional limitation of the device. They don't want people using these on 4:3 TVs or low-res 480i TVs.
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I can think of reasons why Apple would limit Apple TV codecs but why they'd care which type of TV is hooked to it is puzzling. :confused:

ankushpatel said:
check this website out http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/1/9/6543

im not sure of the sources of this website
but on it i see this

Jacqui: Is this HDTV only? Does it just scale down if hooked up to a regular TV?
Apple Employee: Yes, HDTV only. Yes, it just scales down on a regular TV.
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That information is confusing the issue and potentially misleading without defining what's meant by "regular TV".

brbubba said:
At this point I have seen conflicting sources, not appleTV or even mac related sources, on this issue. Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't.
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Who's claiming 480i support? Until proven otherwise, I'm still sticking to whatever the TV compatibility on the Apple TV - Tech specs says:

• Enhanced-definition or high-definition widescreen TVs capable of 1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz
 
If the Apple Tv does not support 480i than MOST 4:3 CRT televisions are out of luck as most do not support progressive scan.
 
CubeHacker said:
No, the red, white and yellow is composite connections, not component which are red, green, and blue. If you don't have component, you won't be able to use the AppleTV
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To be perfectly clear, component is R, G, & B, while composite is just Y. That should help the OP remember which is which. Component breaks the video signal into its primary color components, while composite has them all mixed together in one wire.

The red and white cables you commonly see on composite connectors is R & W for stereo audio. There are component cables with red and white audio as well.
 
HDMI to NTSC?

For composite NTSC output, what about starting with the AppleTV HDMI port, HDMI -> DVI -> NTSC, using this hardware:

HDMI to DVI Adapter ($14):
http://www.abccables.com/304-1930.html

DVI to NTSC Adapter ($19):
Go to the apple store at http://store.apple.com, then search for "dvi video adapter." It's the first item in the search results.
 

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Thanks. I'd been looking for "NTSC" in the product name, d'oh! Here's a more permanent link:

Apple DVI to Video Adapter

So you're trying to get HDMI<->Composite via DVI? I doubt that would work for Apple TV because the TV needs progressive scan frequency support.
 
markie said:
"Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't."

Some are clueless and some aren't. 480p is too high for the monitor to handle. Set a computer too high of resolution and refresh rate for the monitor. Same thing. I GUARANTEE you that if this thing outputs 480p it won't work with a normal TV. Of course, it's also almost certainly capable of 480i output, but according to the specs, it doesn't do it. Just like iBooks are capable of dual monitor but it's locked out - doesn't mean it can't be unlocked :)

480i is really x240 not x480. In each frame alternating lines are displayed to create the illusion of x480. This can be deinterlaced to create 30 fps progressive. In fact, TV is often said to be 30 x480 frames per second. It's not. It's 60 x240 frames and how the TV displays it creates the illusion of a 480 line picture. Really you're seeing alternating, slightly offset, 240 line pictures.
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You're arguing the difference between "six" and "half dozen." It's just two different ways to say the same thing. 60 fields=30 frames=1 second of interlaced NTSC DV/DVD video. 240(field) + 240(field)=480 (frame).

For such attempted nit picking I'm surprised you didn't bring up that NTSC TV is actually 29.97fps, not 30.

EDIT: Anyone w/a Wii have it hooked up to a TV using the component cables?

Lethal
 
markie said:
I GUARANTEE you that if this thing outputs 480p it won't work with a normal TV. Of course, it's also almost certainly capable of 480i output, but according to the specs, it doesn't do it. Just like iBooks are capable of dual monitor but it's locked out - doesn't mean it can't be unlocked :)
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I wish my 480i SDTV could be magically unlocked to support 480p. :)
 
zap2 said:
Yes...it looks very nice :)


But that does that have to do with Apple TV?
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AFAIK Wii over component is 480p and if it works w/a regular 4:3 TV (which I guess I should've specified in my previous post) then it could help put this argument to rest.


Lethal
 
LethalWolfe said:
AFAIK Wii over component is 480p and if it works w/a regular 4:3 TV (which I guess I should've specified in my previous post) then it could help put this argument to rest.


Lethal
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Could've been hooked up to a more modern LCD/Plasma/DLP etc... that supports progressive resolutions. And I thought Wii supports both 480i and 480p over component.
 
LethalWolfe said:
EDIT: Anyone w/a Wii have it hooked up to a TV using the component cables?
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I have my DVD player, Xbox 360 and Wii all connected to my 36", CRT, 4:3 Toshiba television. Yes, it does support 480p. No, it can't "letterbox" widescreen content by itself (I can't find a setting in the setup screens for that). It's a Toshiba Cinema Series HD, for those who want to know. And no, I don't know which model it is, it's not written in the front and I can't access the back once it's installed. The model number is also absent from the setup menus.

So I do hope the Apple TV can output in 4:3 by adding the top/bottom black bars by itself or else it'll sure look weird, all stretched vertically.
 
For what it's worth, the Apple Sales Rep on the phone told me when I was ordering my Apple TV that it would work with my almost 10 year old 35" Sony Trinitron TV. I didn't believe him when he said it, and regardless, I've been shopping for a new LCD to replace it anyways. He sure seemed positive though I wouldn't have any problems. Oh yeah...the reason why I didn't believe him was he didn't even know the name had been changed from iTV. :eek:
 
TuckBodi said:
For what it's worth, the Apple Sales Rep on the phone told me when I was ordering my Apple TV that it would work with my almost 10 year old 35" Sony Trinitron TV. I didn't believe him when he said it, and regardless, I've been shopping for a new LCD to replace it anyways. He sure seemed positive though I wouldn't have any problems. Oh yeah...the reason why I didn't believe him was he didn't even know the name had been changed from iTV. :eek:
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Thanks for that tidbit of potential misinformation. Wise to be skeptical about all Apple TV specs, published or not, until the product actually ships. If it turns out to be compatible with 480i SDTV then I'll be tempted to buy one but I can't afford a new TV and ATV right now.
 
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