I've got the clean install blues

[leekohler]

Sometimes a simple restart is all you need, to delete virtual memory swap files. Checking the drive (I prefer fsck) is a good second step. It depends on the symptoms.

It was far beyond a restart. I was just starting to have apps randomly quit or act strangely, and the system itself was slowing way down. I really couldn't mess around with it either. I have to edit a short film in a day this weekend and "It's not done because my computer freaked out" won't cut it. I don't have the luxury of troubleshooting software at the moment. Whatever it was, it's gone. It's running like the beast that it is.

 

[IJ Reilly]

IJ Reilly What do you do when there is a major upgrade i.ie Tiger - Leopard

I plan on doing a clean install when upgrading to Leopard.

Like I said, I never clean install -- ever! The Mac I've been using every day for seven years started with OS9. It's been upgraded all the way to 10.4.9. When I installed a higher-capacity HD a few years ago, I cloned the old drive. So unless Leopard is somehow vastly different than 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4 -- it will be upgraded again.

Of course by then I might have bought a new Mac. It's getting to be time.

 

[leekohler]

Like I said, I never clean install -- ever! The Mac I've been using every day for seven years started with OS9. It's been upgraded all the way to 10.4.9. When I installed a higher-capacity HD a few years ago, I cloned the old drive. So unless Leopard is somehow vastly different than 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4 -- it will be upgraded again.

Of course by then I might have bought a new Mac. It's getting to be time.

I should say so! BTW- what exactly do you use your computer for?

 

[IJ Reilly]

It was far beyond a restart. I was just starting to have apps randomly quit or act strangely, and the system itself was slowing way down. I really couldn't mess around with it either. I have to edit a short film in a day this weekend and "It's not done because my computer freaked out" won't cut it. I don't have the luxury of troubleshooting software at the moment. Whatever it was, it's gone. It's running like the beast that it is.

Okay, but if it takes close to a day to get your Mac back where it was before the reinstall (evidently a common experience), then how have you saved time?

Also, these boards of are full of tales of woe from people who clean installed (often to fix minor problems!), then found they'd lost important application or data. Worse yet, many find their Mac becomes unbootable because the problem they were trying to fix with the reinstall was hardware related.

My Mac has at least 15 years worth of documents on it, and some applications that go back even further. Start from scratch? The very idea is just about my worst nightmare. Why anyone would want to go through it intentionally, let alone, on a regular basis... boggles my mind.

 

[PlaceofDis]

Okay, but if it takes close to a day to get your Mac back where it was before the reinstall (evidently a common experience), then how have you saved time?

full day? a few hours more like it.

Also, these boards of are full of tales of woe from people who clean installed (often to fix minor problems!), then found they'd lost important application or data. Worse yet, many find their Mac becomes unbootable because the problem they were trying to fix with the reinstall was hardware related.

this is why you back up beforehand. if you don't back up you'll lose your data. thats a fact

My Mac has at least 15 years worth of documents on it, and some applications that go back even further. Start from scratch? The very idea is just about my worst nightmare. Why anyone would want to go through it intentionally, let alone, on a regular basis... boggles my mind.

do you really need all those documents and such on your machine at all times? archive some of 'em perhaps? clean house?
i download and try out a lot of apps. i have a huge music library that is constantly growing. i like to tidy things up by doing a clean install. of course i clone the drive before i start. i clone the drive at least weekly.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I should say so! BTW- what exactly do you use your computer for?

Not sure what you're asking exactly, but it does everything I need. The CPU was upgraded a few years ago, to a 1.7 G4, so it's not too shabby performance-wise. Hell, I still run a old version of Photoshop in Classic. It's been an easy decision to keep this old Mac going (not to mention, it's a Cube, which has that added cool/collector's item factor). Our other Macs are an iMac G4 800 and a PowerBook G4 867. The iMac is very likely going to be the first one replaced, this year probably.

 

[leekohler]

Okay, but if it takes close to a day to get your Mac back where it was before the reinstall (evidently a common experience), then how have you saved time?

A day? It was less than 4 hours. And I've saved time because if I had to do that in the middle of a time-sensitive project this weekend, I'd be screwed.

Also, these boards of are full of tales of woe from people who clean installed (often to fix minor problems!), then found they'd lost important application or data. Worse yet, many find their Mac becomes unbootable because the problem they were trying to fix with the reinstall was hardware related.

That's them, not me. I've had Macs since System 7, I can usually tell if I'm having hardware trouble.

My Mac has at least 15 years worth of documents on it, and some applications that go back even further. Start from scratch? The very idea is just about my worst nightmare. Why anyone would want to go through it intentionally, let alone, on a regular basis... boggles my mind.

15 years of documents? I would never keep files on my computer that long. Back up IJ, clean house baby!

Not sure what you're asking exactly, but it does everything I need.

Are you a designer, video editor, etc.? Is it a work computer, or more for home projects and such? And yes- a Cube is cool. I can see why you would keep it.

 

[IJ Reilly]

full day? a few hours more like it.

Are you including the backup time, and the time it takes to get all of your applications reinstalled, your mailboxes back in shape, your keychains where they were, your Safari bookmarks back in order... just to name a few issues?

this is why you back up beforehand. if you don't back up you'll lose your data. thats a fact

This is where the risk factor comes in. How many people know to backup their mailboxes, for example?

do you really need all those documents and such on your machine at all times? archive some of 'em perhaps? clean house?
i download and try out a lot of apps. i have a huge music library that is constantly growing. i like to tidy things up by doing a clean install. of course i clone the drive before i start. i clone the drive at least weekly.

Yes. If I didn't need them, I'd delete them -- these files represent the history of my business. Having them Spotlight indexed is a very powerful thing. This "tidying up" impulse, which some seem to think is necessary, is in fact, deliberately destructive. Maybe that works for some people, but certainly not for me.

 

[leekohler]

Yes. If I didn't need them, I'd delete them -- these files represent the history of my business. Having them Spotlight indexed is a very powerful thing. This "tidying up" impulse, which some seem to think is necessary, is in fact, deliberately destructive. Maybe that works for some people, but certainly not for me.

Then I think we just need to agree that different strokes work for different folks. Backing up my files is extremely necessary for me. I don't think there's a hard drive out there that could contain all the files I've generated over the years. A server maybe, but not a hard drive.

 

[Black&Tan]

Lee,

I won't dispute that sometimes a clean install is necessary to get the "oomph" back. Sometimes, it really needs a low level format to eliminate drive issues and map bad blocks. However, did you try manually invoking the daily/weekly/monthly clean-up scripts that OSX never runs when you either put it to sleep/shut down? I've noticed much faster restarts and application start-ups when I run those through MacJanitor. Also, cleaning out font caches works wonders. And finally, you can use an app like TechTool to optimize your hard drive and create contiguous hard drive space.

 

[PlaceofDis]

Are you including the backup time, and the time it takes to get all of your applications reinstalled, your mailboxes back in shape, your keychains where they were, your Safari bookmarks back in order... just to name a few issues?

yep. i have an exact clone of the drive. i connect that after the reinstall(which takes about an hour at most itself) and then its rather easy to get everything else back in order, imo.

This is where the risk factor comes in. How many people know to backup their mailboxes, for example?

again. a bootable clone, wouldn't be too much of a problem.

[QUOTE}Yes. If I didn't need them, I'd delete them -- these files represent the history of my business. Having them Spotlight indexed is a very powerful thing. This "tidying up" impulse, which some seem to think is necessary, is in fact, deliberately destructive. Maybe that works for some people, but certainly not for me.[/QUOTE]

i understand wanting to keep them, but you need them on hand at all times? spotlight can index external drives too. or you could just archive to CD/DVD. i would never rely on one drive for all my data. i've had it crash and lost everything. (and i thought you only needed to keep records for the past 7 years?)

deliberately destructive? no. there is a difference between keeping everything and getting rid of what is unnecessary. along with archiving things that you don't need access to all the time.

 

[leekohler]

Lee,

I won't dispute that sometimes a clean install is necessary to get the "oomph" back. Sometimes, it really needs a low level format to eliminate drive issues and map bad blocks. However, did you try manually invoking the daily/weekly/monthly clean-up scripts that OSX never runs when you either put it to sleep/shut down? I've noticed much faster restarts and application start-ups when I run those through MacJanitor. Also, cleaning out font caches works wonders. And finally, you can use an app like TechTool to optimize your hard drive and create contiguous hard drive space.

Yes, I'm an avid user of MacJanitor. I should try Techtool- thanks.

 

[IJ Reilly]

15 years of documents? I would never keep files on my computer that long. Back up IJ, clean house baby!

Explained already, but no way am I going to delete my old stuff. But yes, everything is backed up weekly. In fact I find myself scurrying around to find files that I backed up deleted from my HD long ago (back when mass storage was expensive). Often I can't find them, which is frustrating, and I end up resorting to paper files. I came awfully close to completely losing access to a lot of data I'd archived on Zip disks when I got rid of my last Mac with a Zip drive and SCSI port some years back.

Are you a designer, video editor, etc.? Is it a work computer, or more for home projects and such? And yes- a Cube is cool. I can see why you would keep it.

Work. Home-office. So really it's used for everything. It probably runs around 12 hours a day.

We do historical research, which is obviously a business which is more interested in records than most. But most businesspeople are going to find themselves at least occasionally trying to reconstruct an old project, discussion, correspondence, etc. If you're in business it's just going to happen, and I'd rather have this stuff on my Mac than have to locate it in some old file box somewhere. I mean, the cost of keeping there is essentially nil. So why would I not?

 

[IJ Reilly]

i understand wanting to keep them, but you need them on hand at all times? spotlight can index external drives too. or you could just archive to CD/DVD. i would never rely on one drive for all my data. i've had it crash and lost everything. (and i thought you only needed to keep records for the past 7 years?)

deliberately destructive? no. there is a difference between keeping everything and getting rid of what is unnecessary. along with archiving things that you don't need access to all the time.

I back my files up weekly. CDs are not really a good archival media -- they can and do fail.

Deliberately destructive is not my explanation, it's effectively the one used by many advocates of periodic clean installs. A Mac user can easily delete applications and files they no longer need, when they consciously decide they no longer need them. Clean installing to do the same thing is effectively the reverse process. It's like sweeping every single thing off your desk into the trash, then picking through the trash to see if you've thrown away anything you need. The risk in that seems completely obvious to me.

 

[leekohler]

I back my files up weekly. CDs are not really a good archival media -- they can and do fail.

Deliberately destructive is not my explanation, it's effectively the one used by many advocates of periodic clean installs. A Mac user can easily delete applications and files they no longer need, when they consciously decide they no longer need them. Clean installing to do the same thing is effectively the reverse process. It's like sweeping every single thing off your desk into the trash, then picking through the trash to see if you've thrown away anything you need. The risk in that seems completely obvious to me.

I've never deleted something I needed in a clean install. I back up my files regularly because of the size mainly. It isn't practical for me to keep my files on my computer- they're too big, especially now that I'm getting into video.

It sounds to me that we use our comps in very different ways. Clean installs work for me- they work very well. And that's all there is to it.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I've never deleted something I needed in a clean install. I back up my files regularly because of the size mainly. It isn't practical for me to keep my files on my computer- they're too big, especially now that I'm getting into video.

It sounds to me that we use our comps in very different ways. Clean installs work for me- they work very well. And that's all there is to it.

Well, that isn't exactly all there is to it; not even nearly IMO. A great number of Mac owners use the clean install technique every time some small issue crops up, a problem that (1) probably can easily be fixed some other way, or (2) should be taken as a sign of other issues that can actually be made worse with a clean install. This thinking has become rampant among Mac owners, especially with the Mac migration of so many former Windows users.

It isn't at all clear that the difference between how we use our Macs is a relevant distinction. As Exhibit A, I offer a sum of 15 years of Mac OSX operations, with zero clean installs (not even any archive and installs), and no performance issues. I thought that might get your attention, since you were singing the reinstall blues.

Unless of course you really like singing the reinstall blues. Is that what you were really trying to tell us?

 

[leekohler]

Well, that isn't exactly all there is to it; not even nearly IMO. A great number of Mac owners use the clean install technique every time some small issue crops up, a problem that (1) probably can easily be fixed some other way, or (2) should be taken as a sign of other issues that can actually be made worse with a clean install. This thinking has become rampant among Mac owners, especially with the Mac migration of so many former Windows users.

It isn't at all clear that the difference between how we use our Macs is a relevant distinction. As Exhibit A, I offer a sum of 15 years of Mac OSX operations, with zero clean installs (not even any archive and installs), and no performance issues. I thought that might get your attention, since you were singing the reinstall blues.

Unless of course you really like singing the reinstall blues. Is that what you were really trying to tell us?

No- I don't think people should be using a clean install to solve small issues. I wasn't having small issues, they were annoying to the point of getting serious. I also fail to see how a clean install is going to make things worse unless your hardware is faulty.

So far, I haven't heard how I should have fixed my particular problems other than restarting or checking my HD. PlaceofDis suggested a scratch disc, which might be helpful. From the symptoms I mentioned, what is it that you think is wrong hardware-wise? Or is it other software issues?

And no- I really don't mind the clean install process too much. It can get boring toward the end though, which is really what I was feeling last night. I just was ready to be done.

 

[IJ Reilly]

No- I don't think people should be using a clean install to solve small issues. I wasn't having small issues, they were annoying to the point of getting serious. I also fail to see how a clean install is going to make things worse unless your hardware is faulty.

So far, I haven't heard how I should have fixed my particular problems other than restarting or checking my HD. PlaceofDis suggested a scratch disc, which might be helpful. From the symptoms I mentioned, what is it that you think is wrong hardware-wise? Or is it other software issues?

And no- I really don't mind the clean install process too much. It can get boring toward the end though, which is really what I was feeling last night. I just was ready to be done.

I don't know what your problem was, and you've already reformatted, which makes it difficult to walk you through the steps. Describe again -- maybe I missed it.

Clean installs can often make matters worse in two ways: (1) The backup is inadequate, resulting in lost data or applications; or (2) the hardware is faulty and the reinstall fails. You are correct in pointing out that (2) isn't going to be an issue unless the hardware is faulty. But how is someone going to know if their problem is hardware or software related, if their first diagnostic step is a reinstall? This happens far more than you might imagine, especially to new Mac users who aren't accustomed to being able to fix OS problems.

If it's of any interest, even Apple sometimes recommends worse than useless OS reinstalls. I got that suggestion from Apple tech support for my PowerBook when it was new, to address kernel panics. I almost pulled the trigger when I decided instead to try removing the (factory installed!) RAM from the bottom slot. Problem solved.

 

[leekohler]

I don't know what your problem was, and you've already reformatted, which makes it difficult to walk you through the steps. Describe again -- maybe I missed it.

Clean installs can often make matters worse in two ways: (1) The backup is inadequate, resulting in lost data or applications; or (2) the hardware is faulty and the reinstall fails. You are correct in pointing out that (2) isn't going to be an issue unless the hardware is faulty. But how is someone going to know if their problem is hardware or software related, if their first diagnostic step is a reinstall? This happens far more than you might imagine, especially to new Mac users who aren't accustomed to being able to fix OS problems.

If it's of any interest, even Apple sometimes recommends worse than useless OS reinstalls. I got that suggestion from Apple tech support for my PowerBook when it was new, to address kernel panics. I almost pulled the trigger when I decided instead to try removing the (factory installed!) RAM from the bottom slot. Problem solved.

Aren't kernal panics usually RAM-related? That's weird they would tell you that.

Anyway, my problems were very random app crashing, no one app in particular and a noticeable slowdown in performance overall.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Aren't kernal panics usually RAM-related? That's weird they would tell you that.

I know, I know. Just goes to show you. Or something like that.

Anyway, my problems were very random app crashing, no one app in particular and a noticeable slowdown in performance overall.

A couple things I'd try. For the slowdown, I'd have a look at Activity Monitor. For the random bugging out, I'd create and log into a new user, and see if it happens there.

 

[mad jew]

Whilst there's no point in avoiding a clean install for the sake of avoiding it, it's still a good idea to find the source of the problem before instigating the remedy. As the colourful and sensual IJ Reilly said, a clean install can sometimes make things worse in terms of not being able to boot back up. Nevertheless, the key point here is that no matter what our opinion on clean installs may be, we should always be prepared such that we could safely do one and not lose any data. Keep good backups and it really doesn't matter how often you wipe the drive because the very worst you'll be doing is wasting your own time.

By the way, I'm saying this as a general statement. It's not specifically aimed at leekohler.