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Damian83

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2011
503
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Cannot have it both ways.
On one hand, they wanted to ensure no one change the games.
On the other hand, they wanted to ensure people are allowed to change how iOS works.
if i cheat in a game, i also influence other players. If i tweak my phone, its my affair. In fact we can already install any app on MacOS... and on any other non-gaming OS...
 

1129846

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There are only two smartphone ecosystems. One locks you in and the other one sells your data. So both have to be stopped by governments. Then you have a real choice. And of course there should be more than two ecosystems.

Your first mistake is think that your data is not being sold by Apple and from the iPhone.

Give you a hint it is collected and sold. Also Apple makes some pretty interesting deal with companies that are a lot shadier than Google.

Apple Music store front is managed by one of those companies. Said company is not the best at respecting user privacy. Also can promise you that you have interacted with said company outside of Apple.
 
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B4U

macrumors 68040
Oct 11, 2012
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if i cheat in a game, i also influence other players. If i tweak my phone, its my affair. In fact we can already install any app on MacOS... and on any other non-gaming OS...
Flawed example.
You cannot have it both ways by moving the goal post to fit your point.

There are plenty of offline only single player games.
When you tweak your phone, you can expose your phone to anything not monitored by Apple, which can also can be spread to other phones.
 
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1129846

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Flawed example.
You cannot have it both ways by moving the goal post to fit your point.

There are plenty of offline only single player games.
When you tweak your phone, you can expose your phone to anything not monitored by Apple, which can also can be spread to other phones.

The banning tends to be for online games that cheating affects other users.

You are the one really stretching the goal post here twisting facts to say side loading is bad.

If things can spread to other phones through side loading the Apple has other major flaws that it needs to protect against so not a good defense. Are you saying Apple security on their iPhone is that bad. If you really believe that this is why side loading should be prevented I suggest you throw away your iPhone and all Apple products as you are saying Apple security design is that bad.
 
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B4U

macrumors 68040
Oct 11, 2012
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The banning tends to be for online games that cheating affects other users.

You are the one really stretching the goal post here twisting facts to say side loading is bad.

If things can spread to other phones through side loading the Apple has other major flaws that it needs to protect against so not a good defense. Are you saying Apple security on their iPhone is that bad. If you really believe that this is why side loading should be prevented I suggest you throw away your iPhone and all Apple products as you are saying Apple security design is that bad.
It is not banning alone. Japan has made it ILLEGAL to offer services to modify games.
If they are so concerned about opening up iOS, they better stop being hypocrites about not letting people mod game saves.
Especially their law is to "prevent someone from turning a profit off a company's software or product".
If pointing out their hypocrisy is called stretching the goal post, this discussion is over.

Meanwhile, where did I say Apple has major flaws? All I said is that by opening it up, there could be potential holes that is not foreseen and could have collateral damages. (They do have zero day vulnerability as is to begin with.)
Why exactly does anyone believe opening more doors is not less secure is beyond me.
 
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1129846

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It is not banning alone. Japan has made it ILLEGAL to offer services to modify games.
If they are so concerned about opening up iOS, they better stop being hypocrites about not letting people mod game saves.
Especially their law is to "prevent someone from turning a profit off a company's software or product".
If pointing out their hypocrisy is called stretching the goal post, this discussion is over.

Meanwhile, where did I say Apple has major flaws? All I said is that by opening it up, there could be potential holes that is not foreseen and could have collateral damages. (They do have zero day vulnerability as is to begin with.)
Why exactly does anyone believe opening more doors is not less secure is beyond me.

Then I go with you are comparing to radically different things.

They Japan is demanding the end of App Store only. Aka allowing side loading of apps on an OS. That is very different than modifying a single app/ game.

One is a full OS that is design to run apps.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
Your first mistake is think that your data is not being sold by Apple and from the iPhone.

Give you a hint it is collected and sold. Also Apple makes some pretty interesting deal with companies that are a lot shadier than Google.

Apple Music store front is managed by one of those companies. Said company is not the best at respecting user privacy. Also can promise you that you have interacted with said company outside of Apple.
Credible citations would be nice for point 1 and 2.
 

B4U

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Then I go with you are comparing to radically different things.

They Japan is demanding the end of App Store only. Aka allowing side loading of apps on an OS. That is very different than modifying a single app/ game.

One is a full OS that is design to run apps.
Not really different except one is to protect Sony and Nintendo, while the other wants to open up iOS.
 

1129846

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Credible citations would be nice for point 1 and 2.

Well only so much I can say beyond look up a company call Red Ventures. I worked for them for 3.5 years on the engineering side. Apple Music is run by them. I know that because I worked for Red Venture and we knew about it with Apple. Also not something Apple is going to want to have publicly in the media.

Just know they do a lot of questionable things with the data they gather to figure out how to do better targeting in advertising. I do know they don’t sell the data they gather but they sure as hell are creepy in how they use it.

As for Apple not gathering then you just are being blind. The ask not to track is meh at best all you lose is the advertising ID but if someone has an account boom locked on ID that can used for everything else and a little work on the back end you have it all linked up and just as good. Every click you make in almost every app is tracked and looked at. More often to improve user flow.

Don’t forget Apple sells ads. That data is gather.

People think your data is sold there brokers. Some is. Apple nor Google do the data broker sells but they both use it for their own gains.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
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Gotta be in it to win it
Well only so much I can say beyond look up a company call Red Ventures. I worked for them for 3.5 years on the engineering side. Apple Music is run by them. I know that because I worked for Red Venture and we knew about it with Apple. Also not something Apple is going to want to have publicly in the media.

Just know they do a lot of questionable things with the data they gather to figure out how to do better targeting in advertising. I do know they don’t sell the data they gather but they sure as hell are creepy in how they use it.

As for Apple not gathering then you just are being blind. The ask not to track is meh at best all you lose is the advertising ID but if someone has an account boom locked on ID that can used for everything else and a little work on the back end you have it all linked up and just as good. Every click you make in almost every app is tracked and looked at. More often to improve user flow.

Don’t forget Apple sells ads. That data is gather.

People think your data is sold there brokers. Some is. Apple nor Google do the data broker sells but they both use it for their own gains.
A few points:
1. Tell me to “look up” some company and claim they run Apple Music and then say apple wouldn’t want this to be know, doesn’t track. If it were so easy it would be all over the media. This is not a citation.

2. I never claimed apple didn’t aggregate our information. Of course they do, they have to. The question is does apple sell our PII to third parties without our consent.

3. I have no problem with apple serving me up ads with my own data. What I would have a problem with is apple selling my PII to a third party without my consent for the purpose of serving me up ads.
 

1129846

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A few points:
1. Tell me to “look up” some company and claim they run Apple Music and then say apple wouldn’t want this to be know, doesn’t track. If it were so easy it would be all over the media. This is not a citation.

2. I never claimed apple didn’t aggregate our information. Of course they do, they have to. The question is does apple sell our PII to third parties without our consent.

3. I have no problem with apple serving me up ads with my own data. What I would have a problem with is apple selling my PII to a third party without my consent for the purpose of serving me up ads.

Your choice whether to believe it or not. I am telling you I know from working there. I can also tell you RV is running all of American Express card match system. I mostly am pointing out this allows Apple to disconnect and public say they are not doing it. Choose to believe it or not.

Google is not selling your PII data either to 3rd parties. Just you know they are serving up ads just like Apple.

Either way I suggest you look up Red ventures and learn more about them as I can 100% say you have interacted with them at some point weather knowingly or unknowingly. They are one of the biggest companies you have never heard of.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,050
Gotta be in it to win it
Your choice whether to believe it or not. I am telling you I know from working there. I can also tell you RV is running all of American Express card match system. I mostly am pointing out this allows Apple to disconnect and public say they are not doing it. Choose to believe it or not.

Google is not selling your PII data either to 3rd parties. Just you know they are serving up ads just like Apple.

Either way I suggest you look up Red ventures and learn more about them as I can 100% say you have interacted with them at some point weather knowingly or unknowingly. They are one of the biggest companies you have never heard of.
Obviously no proof in the above. Telling me to look something up is not proof. Anyway tin foil conspiracies vs this who want proof.
 
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1129846

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Obviously no proof in the above. Telling me to look something up is not proof. Anyway tin foil conspiracies vs this who want proof.

Oh I know not proof but it is a random business contract that is common in industries. Not something that is going to be published. Most of my knowledge is insider and just one putting in the belief Apple is so much better than anyone else is just heads in the sands approach.

It more understanding that Apple is not much better than some other large players.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,050
Gotta be in it to win it
Oh I know not proof but it is a random business contract that is common in industries. Not something that is going to be published. Most of my knowledge is insider and just one putting in the belief Apple is so much better than anyone else is just heads in the sands approach.

It more understanding that Apple is not much better than some other large players.
Just saying you’re an insider in a small corner of apples world and then gorming a generalized does not tell a complete story.
 
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Damian83

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2011
503
275
Flawed example.
You cannot have it both ways by moving the goal post to fit your point.

There are plenty of offline only single player games.
When you tweak your phone, you can expose your phone to anything not monitored by Apple, which can also can be spread to other phones.
yes there are plenty of offline games and in fact i cant see any problems by cheating on it if it doesnt affects others.
so i cant drink, use drugs, and pay for sex because ill "spread" it to others?
 

B4U

macrumors 68040
Oct 11, 2012
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yes there are plenty of offline games and in fact i cant see any problems by cheating on it if it doesnt affects others.
so i cant drink, use drugs, and pay for sex because ill "spread" it to others?
Now you have stretch it to a different level.
"so i cant drink, use drugs, and pay for sex because ill "spread" it to others?"
There are plenty of data showing that is true in some sense, it is called "peer pressure".
 

Damian83

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2011
503
275
Now you have stretch it to a different level.
"so i cant drink, use drugs, and pay for sex because ill "spread" it to others?"
There are plenty of data showing that is true in some sense, it is called "peer pressure".
But i still CAN. So i ask an easier question: why i can install ANY app on windows, mac, android, and i cant on ios? what it has so special? and why people with android still uses home banking apps, uses social medias, and any other data sensitive stuff without any issues? what makes that apple SECURITY so special? true is: SECURITY its the apple's codename for MONEY. i can make tons of examples but it will be too long. open your eyes, and your walled garden, and u'll realize no one will care about devastating it ;-)
 

mrochester

macrumors 601
Feb 8, 2009
4,626
2,540
But i still CAN. So i ask an easier question: why i can install ANY app on windows, mac, android, and i cant on ios? what it has so special? and why people with android still uses home banking apps, uses social medias, and any other data sensitive stuff without any issues? what makes that apple SECURITY so special? true is: SECURITY its the apple's codename for MONEY. i can make tons of examples but it will be too long. open your eyes, and your walled garden, and u'll realize no one will care about devastating it ;-)
There’s nothing special about iOS, it’s just not the product Apple wants to make.
 
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B4U

macrumors 68040
Oct 11, 2012
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But i still CAN. So i ask an easier question: why i can install ANY app on windows, mac, android, and i cant on ios? what it has so special? and why people with android still uses home banking apps, uses social medias, and any other data sensitive stuff without any issues? what makes that apple SECURITY so special? true is: SECURITY its the apple's codename for MONEY. i can make tons of examples but it will be too long. open your eyes, and your walled garden, and u'll realize no one will care about devastating it ;-)
And you are bring up Windows, and Android...
There are plenty of issues there.
I paid for the walled garden knowingly and you are welcome to move out of it.
 

Damian83

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2011
503
275
There’s nothing special about iOS, it’s just not the product Apple wants to make.
Actually i dont care about sideloading, however i also dont care about what apple wants. For the price it asks it has to make what customers wants instead. If customers voice is ignored then fortunately we have governments. Its ridicolous, and 20 years ago, unimaginable, that a government has to force the richest world's company to dismiss an obsolete cable... imagine a TV brand still stuck on component or vga connections instead of hdmi...
 

Damian83

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2011
503
275
And you are bring up Windows, and Android...
There are plenty of issues there.
I paid for the walled garden knowingly and you are welcome to move out of it.
1) ive mentioned also macos...
2) u didnt answered to my questions
3) sideloading isnt mandatory, u can still be walled garden, just like when untethered JB was a common thing
 

B4U

macrumors 68040
Oct 11, 2012
3,583
4,047
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1) ive mentioned also macos...
2) u didnt answered to my questions
3) sideloading isnt mandatory, u can still be walled garden, just like when untethered JB was a common thing
For MacOS, they had to spend the resources to cater to their professional audience.
Opening up a backdoor for the walled garden? How is that a walled garden anymore?
JB is different, they were exploiting system vulnerability. Opening for sideloading is totally different story.
 

mrochester

macrumors 601
Feb 8, 2009
4,626
2,540
Actually i dont care about sideloading, however i also dont care about what apple wants. For the price it asks it has to make what customers wants instead. If customers voice is ignored then fortunately we have governments. Its ridicolous, and 20 years ago, unimaginable, that a government has to force the richest world's company to dismiss an obsolete cable... imagine a TV brand still stuck on component or vga connections instead of hdmi...
Customers voice is not ignored; we have the ultimate power to determine what products Apple makes by either buying it or not. If we don’t like the product that Apple is making we send them that message by not buying it.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,283
2,607
Side Loading will be the end of secure iOS
Sideloading is possible and available today.

Apple just doesn't contractually allow legitimate developers to use enterprise certificates to distribute apps to the greater public. That doesn't mean they aren't around, used and (sometimes) abused.
 
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