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jjcs

Cancelled
Oct 18, 2021
317
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R&D means to know as much as possible about REAL WORLD customer needs (Market-analysis).
R&D means to develop products that fulfill customers needs the best possible.
R&D means to do research to find the best existing technical means for the product and for the production-process.
R&D means to do deeper research to invent better technical means or even new products or new means for the production process. The latter is the „work“ of visionists. Visionists can be either persons in the company, even a single customer can have good ideas.

Market-Research, Marketing, engineers and designers should works together from the very beginning to prevent dead-end development.

Early controlling prevents that engineers and designers develop products that fulfill perhaps customers needs, but are too expensive for being accepted on the market or will not be too expensive for the enterprise and lead to economical losses.

All these and even more departments have to work in a balanced way to make a successfully product and holding an enterprise at life.

If any of these departments gets too much power over a certain time this tight cooperation will not work and puts the company in potential danger.

the industrial history is full of examples for catastrophic unbalanced cooperation and decisions.

apple had to face this several times.

Steve Jobs was a visionist, but for a certain time he did not respect economical needs. And his visions were to a certain part just not able to be realized because the technical status of that time did NOT allow this to realize. One example was the „newton“ project and product.
He did mostly perfect marketing, but for a certain time he did not and apple‘s products did not meet customers interest Nor fulfill the overdone primises of apple‘s marketing.

He got fired and was replaced by someone who did his job even worse.

when Steven Jobs came back he was NO more the old Steve Jobs, because he had learned his lesson.

He changed things radically, not only the mistakes of his successor, but his own mistakes as well.

At that moment the young Joni Ive did a perfect job. He was extremely productive and had a sense for marketing as well. Evidently he was even able to cooperate with the engineers in a successful way.

There exists a bad psychological phenomenon which is a danger for extremely successful people who get more and more power:
many of them are tempted to start believing they are like GOD and will never ever fail and that they will never ever do wrong decisions.

So they lose self-critical potential and - which is even more dangerous - they abuse their power to supress (expression of) critical thoughts even of absolutely loyal people. They become little dictators and instead of a symbiotic cooperation the departments start to play offense and (mostly) defense. People have fear to lose their job.

Joni Ive was very important for apple and did a good job.

But if you have a psychological look at his videos praising himself often enough and more and more presenting ridiculous changes as revolutions you understand that this is not only overdone marketing, but someone who loses more and more contact with reality because nobody around him has the balls to put his decisions in question in a loyal way. I am pretty sure Joni Ive had already eliminated all people that did not praise him and did not think he is Godfather himself. There was evidence that things went worse…

That was the time when Joni Ive HIMSELF killed his own work

because he made exactly the same mistake like Steve Jobs did before he got fired by his own company.
YES, history repeats himself often enough, especially on the basis of psychological weaknesses of people….

what can everybody who is a decision-maker learn from this?

NEVER lose self-critical potential and never abuse power to intimidate people trying to help you with critical statements. Just the opposite: Be THANKFUL to those who are critical in a constructive way and who are regarding critical thoughts as a very important mean to get things right.

Now, IMHO Joni Ive got fired because he did commit the same mistakes that Steve Jobs did when he got fired as well.

Maybe Joni Ive will learn his lesson as well - but I think he will not.

.

You said what I should have. Everything as to be in some sort of balance. It's likely the last 10 years at Apple, they weren't.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
20,392
23,887
Singapore
Now, IMHO Joni Ive got fired because he did commit the same mistakes that Steve Jobs did when he got fired as well.
Except that Jony Ive wasn't fired. He stepped down, likely because his job was getting too stressful and he wanted to move back home where he could spend more time with his family. It seems like people are now attempting to rewrite history by making it sound like he was forced out the same way Scott Forstall was, and that is simply untrue.

If Jony Ive ever wanted to come back one day, Apple would gladly welcome him back any day with open arms. Design is what made Apple great, and I do feel that the greatest risk facing Apple is if Apple ever steps back from their design-led culture and simply let the engineers take over.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Steve Jobs was a visionist, but for a certain time he did not respect economical needs. And his visions were to a certain part just not able to be realized because the technical status of that time did NOT allow this to realize. One example was the „newton“ project and product. He did mostly perfect marketing, but for a certain time he did not and apple‘s products did not meet customers interest Nor fulfill the overdone primises of apple‘s marketing.
Steve Jobs had nothing to do with the Newton. He was long out of the company during its development and release. The Newton was a John Sculley project from the beginning. What Steve Jobs did on nearly his first days back at Apple was kill the Newton and the in-progress Newton Company spin-out.
 
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iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
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You said what I should have. Everything as to be in some sort of balance. It's likely the last 10 years at Apple, they weren't.
Which balance would the be? The balance where Apple has doubled their market cap many times over? The rumoured Mac studio will be another example where engineers will say how out of order Apple is.
 

childu

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 27, 2011
62
87
My time capsule’s fan is blazing at full speed every 10 minutes without reason.
It’s about to break down, I am going to buy the new version…oh wait?
Also the LG 2016 ultrafine display has a vertical green line, I’m going to change it with the new 24” 800 usd version…ops?

Rip Apple COMPUTER…

Jony wasn’t fired but for sure he didn’t feel free as he used to be
 
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MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,177
7,194

Jony Ive’s vision without steve jobs was dead for consumers and was too much form over function​

Now, Jony is gone with his vision, thank god.
Steve with Jony had the perfect balance of a vision, but since Steve was gone, we only got the vision of this guy who took almost all devices to the heat compliance
 

jjcs

Cancelled
Oct 18, 2021
317
153
Which balance would the be? The balance where Apple has doubled their market cap many times over? The rumoured Mac studio will be another example where engineers will say how out of order Apple is.
The balance between practicality and looks. The Mac Pro wasn't the driver for any of this.

Much of the current Apple success is driven by the iPhone.
 
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iPadified

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Apr 25, 2017
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The balance between practicality and looks. The Mac Pro wasn't the driver for any of this.

Much of the current Apple success is driven by the iPhone.

The balance is what we are discussing and obviously it is not easy to say where it should go as it is governed by personal needs rather than a complete market survey.

The iPhone is to very large extent a designers item. Bad looks of the iPhone would be devastating.

I agree that looks on Mac Pro is not so important but it is a halo product so it should look amazing.
 

childu

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 27, 2011
62
87
Rip wedge design and MacBooks under 1 kg. Another blow to Jony
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
Rip wedge design and MacBooks under 1 kg. Another blow to Jony
Wedge design made sense for Intel CPUs but not for AS.

This is because Intel CPUs needed a bigger heatsink and fan so the top part of the chassis needed to be bigger. However, this made it so that you can't maximize all the area. The bottom part is too thin to put battery cells in, for example.

The new Macbook Air design is catered to AS. No wedge design is needed. Battery and other components can fill the entire chassis.
 
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alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
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524
Wedge design made sense for Intel CPUs but not for AS.

This is because Intel CPUs needed a bigger heatsink and fan so the top part of the chassis needed to be bigger. However, this made it so that you can't maximize all the area. The bottom part is too thin to put battery cells in, for example.

The new Macbook Air design is catered to AS. No wedge design is needed. Battery and other componentsm1 can fill the entire chassis.
Heat still an issue on m1.
 

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
One example was the „newton“ project and product.
Are you are that the Newton mostly existed while Jobs was not at Apple?
A lot of what you mentioned occurred in the period 1985 through 1997. All in the Apple without Steve Jobs period.

Also you are ignoring the best quality of Jobs, which was finding and firing the best people for the job.

Also if we look at the same period, Jobs worked in an industry (digital film creation) where nothing happens if the artists, and other staff do not have the creative freedom to develop their own visions and turn them into a completed feature film.

If we talk bout some the other things Jobs did, many complained he pushed feature creep too hard and singular visions without understanding the wider picture. Also the other major flaw is Jobs attitude towards staff, not the job done, but was not very friendly. The infamous stories about people hating being in an elevator with jobs as they did not know if they would still be employed when they got out. Urban legend or truth? The point is that is how people thought of Jobs and how he treated his staff. This works with most staff, when you are treating your board and other executives like this, conflict occurs. Scully and Jobs had huge conflict which resulted in Jobs leaving Apple. Was Jobs leaving or being fired? That depends who you ask.

The return of Jobs after his new and Pixar experience, he as a changed man, focused on the important things at Apple, and did away with all the superfluous. This includes staff management. He was never loved by the staff but he improved a little.

My point?
Jobs issues had nothing to do with R&D as you claim. Comparing Jobs leaving Apple and Ive leaving Apple is like comparing apples and oranges. Two completely different things.

-------

Moving on to Ive.

I would rather have Ive, praising his own work, over the Apple of today who are throwing their long term users under the bus, pushing feature creep more than ever, not treating all their users with equality, and so no and so on. Also Ive had the ability to make changes because he did not have the fear of job loss hanging over his head. He was more able than most to use his creative talents to put his stamp on the products he designed at Apple.

Apple of today on the other hand, the internals are industry leading. Great function. However the form, how the products look and exist within the office or home ecosystems have not changed in a long time. That creative spark is gone from Apple. Jonny Ive did not work on OS development, but even there today we do not have both form and function being innovative and revolutionised. At this WWDC keynote just passed, we have had OSes announced that are hardly anything more than a new coat of paint. The Macs are in a similar boat, but not as much as the new M series Macs to integrate form and function to a point.

This is where Johnny excelled, understanding how form and function are linked. How improving each one affects the other. All while adding his own flair to make truly unique pieces (even if inspired by history).

-------

Moving on to Scott Forstall

Scott is a good example to talk here. Scott was the arrogant, all or nothing man. Either you were on the Scott Forstall bus, happy with his decisions or you were out of his team. Apple even has the infamous iOS 7 war which ended up with Scott being fired. Scott's refusal to even entertain opposing ideas was his downfall. It was Scott, not Johnny they believed he was perfect, could do no wrong and expected Apple to agree with his ideas 100% of the time.

In my opinion I believe your piece actually relates more closely to Scott. Apart from the R&D comments. The R&D comments are absolutely true as you said them, however I feel they do not really add much to the topic at hand. Scott did act like a mini, but more extreme version of Jobs. However enough people had a healthy respect for Jobs so no one challenged him again for the top job. Scott, worked in such a way that got everyone offside with him. Did not at all learn from the mistakes of Jobs.

I do not believe Johnny Ive has any lesson to learn.
Scott Forstall on the other hand has many lessons to learn and hopefully since his departure form Apple, he has learned a few of them.
 
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AltecX

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2016
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I do not believe Johnny Ive has any lesson to learn.
Scott Forstall on the other hand has many lessons to learn and hopefully since his departure form Apple, he has learned a few of them.
Johnny's lesson should be that on a product that function is key. Form first in all things can ruin it. There must be a balance struck. As pretty as his Mac designs are, functionally I find them trash, which in a tool that needs to be versatile, is a massive problem.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,131
1,891
Anchorage, AK
I do not believe Johnny Ive has any lesson to learn.
Scott Forstall on the other hand has many lessons to learn and hopefully since his departure form Apple, he has learned a few of them.

I couldn't disagree with you more on the Johnny Ive part. His dogged determination to make everything as thin and light as possible is what led to issues such as the butterfly keyboards. That was a prime example of form OVER function. Likewise, the trashcan Mac Pro is another example of form over function. Ironically, the Mac Studio is in many ways a re-imagining of that Mac Pro without the constraints Ive would have placed upon its design. While it's far from a "perfect" system, it's far more capable and liked than the "Trash Mac".

Regarding current models, I'm glad Apple finally ditched the wedge for the Air. That design was dated, and limited options for battery placement and size. The new design with the M2 not only allows for a larger battery, but also brought back MagSafe, which means you no longer have to sacrifice half of your USB-C ports to the power overlords. It's the first true visual and physical overhaul of the Airs since Apple ditched the silver version with the massive bezels. Plus that midnight color is one I would love to see on a MacBook Pro down the line.

In a perfect world, form and function would seamlessly blend together. However, nothing is perfect in practice. With other models (Mac Mini, 14" and 16" MBP), I feel Apple has found a balance between the form Ive was laser-focused on and the functionality users want and need. My 14" Pro is the most comfortable Mac laptop I've had in years (probably since the last pre-butterfly 13" I owned), and the battery life runs circles around any other laptop I've ever owned. Are they perfect? Of course not. But the design means using this machine is a pleasant experience rather than a frustrating one.

I have no clue where Forstall is or what he's even doing now. I think the only time I even heard his name mentioned was around 2 years after he left Apple, and that was in reference to some company I had never heard of prior to that post and haven't heard from since.
 

t2jd1967

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2021
100
54
I couldn't disagree with you more on the Johnny Ive part. His dogged determination to make everything as thin and light as possible is what led to issues such as the butterfly keyboards. That was a prime example of form OVER function. Likewise, the trashcan Mac Pro is another example of form over function. Ironically, the Mac Studio is in many ways a re-imagining of that Mac Pro without the constraints Ive would have placed upon its design. While it's far from a "perfect" system, it's far more capable and liked than the "Trash Mac".

Regarding current models, I'm glad Apple finally ditched the wedge for the Air. That design was dated, and limited options for battery placement and size. The new design with the M2 not only allows for a larger battery, but also brought back MagSafe, which means you no longer have to sacrifice half of your USB-C ports to the power overlords. It's the first true visual and physical overhaul of the Airs since Apple ditched the silver version with the massive bezels. Plus that midnight color is one I would love to see on a MacBook Pro down the line.

In a perfect world, form and function would seamlessly blend together. However, nothing is perfect in practice. With other models (Mac Mini, 14" and 16" MBP), I feel Apple has found a balance between the form Ive was laser-focused on and the functionality users want and need. My 14" Pro is the most comfortable Mac laptop I've had in years (probably since the last pre-butterfly 13" I owned), and the battery life runs circles around any other laptop I've ever owned. Are they perfect? Of course not. But the design means using this machine is a pleasant experience rather than a frustrating one.

I have no clue where Forstall is or what he's even doing now. I think the only time I even heard his name mentioned was around 2 years after he left Apple, and that was in reference to some company I had never heard of prior to that post and haven't heard from since.
Can I just say that I totally agree with your post? The MBP M1 14” Max is the best Apple product I have ever had my hands on and I have had a slew of Apple hardware over the years. It is a better product than all the iPhones I have used over the years and I really like the iPhones. This is a machine screaming productivity and function-over-form that sadly Apple had been missing on the laptop front since 2016. It feels absolutely rock solid and I use my machine to get work done.

I never understood the Touchbar, complete nonsense from a usability perspective. I bought a 2017 MBP 13” with the Touchbar for my daughter and she only used it for brightness and volume control. You can’t feel the Touchbar, there is no tactile feedback, it is a flawed concept. I stuck with my trusty 2013 MBP 15”, hoping the designers at Apple would come to their senses. Thankfully they did.
 
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