Jony Ive’s vision was killed today

[Queen6]

I think the dissatisfaction ran both ways. It was reported for example that Skylake was notoriously buggy and that Apple in particular was very unhappy with Intel’s quality of support there. Later Apple had to delay hardware releases because Intel was unable/unwilling to produce enough of SKUs for their needs. And of course the fact that Intel pretty much stopped improving performance after 2017, just tweaking power curves and increasing energy consumption. I have little doubt that all this was instrumental for Apple‘s decision to move forward with Apple Silicon.

Personally I have few if any doubts. Intel deliberately dragged it's feet as it had the monopoly on CPU's. Literally drip feeding improvements to the customer year on year while soaking up the profits. Intel did at least offer Apple some specific SKU's yet they were all ultimately too power hungry & hot for Apple to fully realise it's designs.

This likely left Apple with some very harsh choices; thicker & heavier or less performant notebooks. The knock on effect, Intel is on the backfoot with AMD and Apple taking the lead...

Q-6

 

[Gudi]

I am happy for you to continue with your beliefs, as misguided as these may be. Let's call it a day, shall we?

Let's call it a complete and utter argumentative defeat. I'd be happy to never again hear about mysterious market forces as the explanation for everything.

 

[dmccloud]

Wrong! Mining companies want to make money too, but since they ship boulders and not ones and zeros, they go for maximization and not miniaturization. So the triviality that all companies want to make money tells us freaking nothing about the nature of computer science. Your degree in economics is literally useless with regard to this topic. Again, everything humans do is ultimtely controlled by hormones not money. That's why instant gratification time and again lets us make decisions, which are completely against our economic interests. IBM management probably acted more out of pride, arrogance and jealousy than some well thought out economic analysis. Otherwise they wouldn't have lost the market they once dominated, would they?

View attachment 2241159
Komatsu 980E

So you're now using completely non-related examples for some reason that defies logic. It's definitely not proving whatever your main argument is at this point, because you continuously shift your arguments to attempt to get around the serious logical flaws and lack of factual basis in your existing argumentation.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

SD, USB, HDMI are all no factor in making a thin laptop, lots of other guts take up more space

Not having those IMO is more about making things proprietary to increase profits

 

[Queen6]

SD, USB, HDMI are all no factor in making a thin laptop, lots of other guts take up more space

Not having those IMO is more about making things proprietary to increase profits

Well in all fairness to Apple the 2016 MacBook Pro re-design offered USB C which is an open standard. Where the 2016 models fell down was lack of port diversity (without mandatory dongles) ever increasing thermals in a chassis that was close to the TDP limit at launch no thx to Intel and the Butterfly Keyboard fiasco pretty much did the rest.

While Apple's professional user base is in the minority they are also the most vocal and listened to. At the end of the day if your going to place the MBP as a professional product it has to deliver as such regardless of usage. Thankfully Apple listened, brought back ports that users need and increased thermal headroom for future development of it's SOC.

Q-6

 

[dmccloud]

SD, USB, HDMI are all no factor in making a thin laptop, lots of other guts take up more space

Not having those IMO is more about making things proprietary to increase profits

The first sentence is a misconception. Because of how those ports are designed, a laptop would at a minimum have to be thick enough to accommodate the largest (i.e., tallest) of the respective connectors. The connector is larger than what's visible from the outside of the machine, as there has to be both shielding of the connector and some means of securing it to the chassis of the device in question. One advantage of USB-C over USB-A is that the connectors themselves are thinner, which allows 1-2 mm to be taken off the thickness of the device in question.

Fortunately most of these connectors use a smaller housing today than they did 3-5 years ago, so it's less of a concern.

 

[t2jd1967]

So you're now using completely non-related examples for some reason that defies logic. It's definitely not proving whatever your main argument is at this point, because you continuously shift your arguments to attempt to get around the serious logical flaws and lack of factual basis in your existing argumentation.

I think you are wasting your keystrokes here to be honest. Continuously changing the context bears all the hallmarks of somebody running out of arguments.

 

[gpat]

I've been using the 2021 16" MBP since almost day one.
Of course it's the best portable I've ever seen, defeats every competitor by a long shot.
It convinced me to switch back to macOS after leaving Apple thanks to the 2016-2019 fiasco.

But still, the port selection doesn't satisfy me.
Right now I'm using it and I've plugged in 2 USB-C portable monitors (Lenovo 16") and one set of USB-C headphones (Samsung with ANC).
It's pretty much the definitive setup for having lots of screen estate, I can take it anywhere, set it up in any coworking or shared space, without being bothered by ambient noise.

But 3 TB4 ports aren't nearly quite enough. I'm disappointed at Apple for going back on this.

It's like they had to apologize to the customers for bad thermals, bad keyboard, bad touch bar, and also went back on the USB-C only idea which was too forward-thinking in 2016 but is just contemporary now in 2023 (2021 as well).

With my everyday setup I saturate the TB4 ports and can't plug in any external drive, charge a smartphone or anything like that.

I really don't care about the MagSafe, HDMI, SD or headphone jack. They can stay there or go away, doesn't make a difference to me.
But this laptop really deserved something like 6 TB4 ports. Even on the Max SKU only or something like that.
Even a mix of TB4 and USB-C (reduced bandwidth) would've been fine.

Well, maybe next time.
Along with a bigger screen for the 16", it's a brick already, it doesn't try to be an ultraportable so make it 18" already.

 

[JouniS]

With my everyday setup I saturate the TB4 ports and can't plug in any external drive, charge a smartphone or anything like that.

That's just an inherent weakness of Thunderbolt. Because each port requires so much bandwidth, you rarely have enough of them. Each Thunderbolt port could have been four USB-C ports. Or maybe even four USB ports + HDMI or DP, depending how Apple handles display streams internally.

 

[gpat]

That's just an inherent weakness of Thunderbolt. Because each port requires so much bandwidth, you rarely have enough of them. Each Thunderbolt port could have been four USB-C ports. Or maybe even four USB ports + HDMI or DP, depending how Apple handles display streams internally.

M2 Pro Mac Mini has no problem handling 4 TB4 though.
I'd be OK even with a mix of TB4 and USB-C ports. Apple does that on the M2 Max Studio and it works just fine.

 

[Gudi]

So you're now using completely non-related examples for some reason that defies logic. It's definitely not proving whatever your main argument is at this point, because you continuously shift your arguments to attempt to get around the serious logical flaws and lack of factual basis in your existing argumentation.

Of course, I do shift my arguments! How else do you counter a completely non-related rebuttal over economics 101, then with another completely non-related lecture over biology 101?

Miniaturisation is so essential for progress in chip technology that it doesn't even get mentioned in Gordon Moore's Law: "The number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years." He only speaks about quantity, because transistor size doesn't matter (other than as an enabler of more quantity, of course). Size can go to almost zero, as long as you can still distinguish between zero and one.
I've yet to hear a real argument for why smaller more integrated computers aren't always better. Frank Zappa couldn't convince me. Until you come up with one, I regard that discussion as finished.

 

[darngooddesign]

I've been using the 2021 16" MBP since almost day one.
Of course it's the best portable I've ever seen, defeats every competitor by a long shot.
It convinced me to switch back to macOS after leaving Apple thanks to the 2016-2019 fiasco.

But still, the port selection doesn't satisfy me.
Right now I'm using it and I've plugged in 2 USB-C portable monitors (Lenovo 16") and one set of USB-C headphones (Samsung with ANC).
It's pretty much the definitive setup for having lots of screen estate, I can take it anywhere, set it up in any coworking or shared space, without being bothered by ambient noise.

But 3 TB4 ports aren't nearly quite enough. I'm disappointed at Apple for going back on this.

It's like they had to apologize to the customers for bad thermals, bad keyboard, bad touch bar, and also went back on the USB-C only idea which was too forward-thinking in 2016 but is just contemporary now in 2023 (2021 as well).

With my everyday setup I saturate the TB4 ports and can't plug in any external drive, charge a smartphone or anything like that.

I really don't care about the MagSafe, HDMI, SD or headphone jack. They can stay there or go away, doesn't make a difference to me.
But this laptop really deserved something like 6 TB4 ports. Even on the Max SKU only or something like that.
Even a mix of TB4 and USB-C (reduced bandwidth) would've been fine.

Well, maybe next time.
Along with a bigger screen for the 16", it's a brick already, it doesn't try to be an ultraportable so make it 18" already.

Don't Lenovo's portable displays have USB-C ports which you can use for things which don't require Thunderbolt like your headphones and phone charging? If not, you're already plugging in a lot so make one of those things a a dock for more USB-C ports.

 

[wegster]

Hysterical - I'm only occasionally on MacRumors forum (but have been since...forever), and saw the title as I was poking around considering picking up an M1 or M2 Max.

Of course - the title of the thread itself was basically 'pure joy' followed by shock at the first post, with the debate still ongoing. I consider it a huge win for most that Ive 'thin at any cost' is now long gone.

Back when I needed to replace my 2015MBP 16" (16GB 1TB), Apple had no compelling reasonable options for me:
1. No options for more memory in a PRO machine.
2. Loss of numerous ports used often sacrificed at the altar of stupid
3. Sacrificing the ESC key used OFTEN by many code editors and other tools for the Touch Bar, which I was generally indifferent on, but was of true negative value if it meant removing the tactile ESC key.
4. Worse by all standards butterfly keyboard.

All in all - I nearly had to get off of Macs for my use, as there was no possible way I was going to STILL have the out of memory issues just to add storage but lose my ESC key, ports, and get a crappier, less reliable keyboard - and pay through the nose for it. Nope.

No clue what Gudi's last post is on about - it's a non issue if people who don't need higher specced or special purpose PRO systems want something crazy thin, light, etc. - all good. But that was not where Apple spent it's timing growing users of many kinds for professional use, it's a different customer segment, and the 'thin at all costs,' lack of Mac Pro updates forever pretty much forced a bunch of 'pro' users which helped keep apple afloat before the whole 'buy apple, it's cool' trends kicked in.

Thin and light are great, right up until capability or functionality people need from their specific use cases, is impacted in a negative way.

Finally, I caved with a 2019 16" MBP when they brought back a better, working keyboard and offered higher RAM options, which in general has been a decent machine, but of course, we'll just go with Apple does not really do 'pro' thermals well, especially with hot Intel chips. They did a decent job and it fared better than the 'airplane taking off' from prior MBPs, but of course sat there with 20W constant Radeon draw because OMG - I wanted both the laptop screen and an external display. Amusingly this seems to have been finally fixed (power consumption should be around half or less of that, looong debated, documented issue neither AMD nor Apple would fess up to as an issue).

Good riddance to Ive; I hope the door did kick him on the way out and that Apple separates consumer and pro divisions when it comes to their relative priorities instead of same priority (e.g. thinnest and lightest possible) for very different uses.

 

[darngooddesign]

...I've yet to hear a real argument for why smaller more integrated computers aren't always better. Frank Zappa couldn't convince me. Until you come up with one, I regard that discussion as finished.

A smaller, more integrated Mac isn't bad in theory, but it is in practice when RAM/SSD upgrades at the time of purchase carry a massive premium with no grounds in reality and an SSD failure bricks your computer. Fewer people would have a problem with soldered RAM and SSD if upgrades had realistic pricing like double the material costs, or the MBPs, which are thick enough, had an NVMe slot in addition to the soldered SSD. The Studio has already proven that there is no performance reason for the SSD to be integrated and non-removable.

 

[gpat]

Don't Lenovo's portable displays have USB-C ports which you can use for things which don't require Thunderbolt like your headphones and phone charging? If not, you're already plugging in a lot so make one of those things a a dock for more USB-C ports.

I thought those were for power only.
Thank you.
I sure feel stupid right now.

 

[darngooddesign]

I thought those were for power only.
Thank you.
I sure feel stupid right now.

To be honest, I don't know either LOL.

Can you daisy chain them so Power (if you don't use MagSafe) > Display > Display > One TB port?

Don't worry about feeling dumb, MR is as much about learning as it is complaining. 🤣

 

[gpat]

To be honest, I don't know either LOL.

Can you daisy chain them so Power > Display > Display > One TB port?

Don't worry about feeling dumb, MR is as much about learning as it is complaining. 🤣

I've tried that right now, if I daisychain them, I turn to a quite fun show of the MBP screen turning black and back to desktop as it tries to adjust to external monitors being plugged and unplugged continously.
The two Lenovo monitors just show the Lenovo logo for a split second taking turns and turning black.
Not enough power, I fear.
But still I can power them separately from 2TB ports and their auxiliary USB-C ports allow me to plug my Samsung T7 SSD and my Samsung ANC headphones. Good enough! And I still have the remaining TB3 port to charge my phone or plug in another drive.

 

[darngooddesign]

I've tried that right now, if I daisychain them, I turn to a quite fun show of the MBP screen turning black and back to desktop as it tries to adjust to external monitors being plugged and unplugged continously.
The two Lenovo monitors just show the Lenovo logo for a split second taking turns and turning black.
Not enough power, I fear.
But still I can power them separately from 2TB ports and their auxiliary USB-C ports allow me to plug my Samsung T7 SSD and my Samsung ANC headphones. Good enough! And I still have the remaining TB3 port to charge my phone or plug in another drive.

That's great! In time you might even find a better solution like a drive enclosure which has a second USB-C port.

 

[gpat]

That's great! In time you might even find a better solution like a drive enclosure which has a second USB-C port.

I'm not a big fan of daisychaining because you always turn out to be power constrained in the end, especially in these situations in which everything has to be powered by the MBP alone without any other power plug, it's a 100% mobile setup fitting in a backpack, it doesn't depend on a desktop power supply and can operate on a plane or train, quite amazing if you think about it.
Now I just ask for 8TB USB-C/NVMe SSDs to come down in price, so I can fit all of my digital life on internal MBP + 1 drive + Time Machine HDD (at home), and I'll be an happy camper.

 

[darngooddesign]

I'm not a big fan of daisychaining because you always turn out to be power constrained in the end, especially in these situations in which everything has to be powered by the MBP alone without any other power plug, it's a 100% mobile setup fitting in a backpack, it doesn't depend on a desktop power supply and can operate on a plane or train, quite amazing if you think about it.
Now I just ask for 8TB USB-C/NVMe SSDs to come down in price, so I can fit all of my digital life on internal MBP + 1 drive + Time Machine HDD (at home), and I'll be an happy camper.

Do the power constraints also apply to a single dual-slot enclosure?

Can you leave a 3.5mm adapter connected to your headphones and plug them into your MBP.

 

[gpat]

Do the power constraints also apply to a single dual-slot enclosure?

Impossible to know without trying 🤣
If I plug in 2xSSDs directly to the TB port, it will work flawlessly, I think.
If I plug in 2xSSDs to the auxiliary USB-C port on the monitor... meh. Wouldn't risk to have a power constraint while writing on a drive, especially if those are set up in RAID0.
I used to love fiddling with those kinds of solutions to see how it would turn out, but I've grown too old for these things.
I'll just wait for the spoon-fed solution by a major OEM, that's how I roll these days 😁

 

[t2jd1967]

Of course, I do shift my arguments! How else do you counter a completely non-related rebuttal over economics 101, then with another completely non-related lecture over biology 101?

Miniaturisation is so essential for progress in chip technology that it doesn't even get mentioned in Gordon Moore's Law: "The number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years." He only speaks about quantity, because transistor size doesn't matter (other than as an enabler of more quantity, of course). Size can go to almost zero, as long as you can still distinguish between zero and one.

I've yet to hear a real argument for why smaller more integrated computers aren't always better. Frank Zappa couldn't convince me. Until you come up with one, I regard that discussion as finished.

Victory is yours! 🏆

I have generally found that there are two types of people who defy all logical reasoning. There are fanatics (zealots if you like) and there are lunatics. Hopefully you are not one of those, as it would explain your odd behaviour.

Edit: language.

 

[darngooddesign]

Impossible to know without trying 🤣
If I plug in 2xSSDs directly to the TB port, it will work flawlessly, I think.
If I plug in 2xSSDs to the auxiliary USB-C port on the monitor... meh. Wouldn't risk to have a power constraint while writing on a drive, especially if those are set up in RAID0.
I used to love fiddling with those kinds of solutions to see how it would turn out, but I've grown too old for these things.
I'll just wait for the spoon-fed solution by a major OEM, that's how I roll these days 😁

A dual slot drive will reduce the total number of things you have to carry. Plug that into your Mac, phone into one monitor, and headphones into either the other monitor or the 3.5 jack on your Mac.

 

[Gudi]

A smaller, more integrated Mac isn't bad in theory, but it is in practice when RAM/SSD upgrades at the time of purchase carry a massive premium with no grounds in reality and an SSD failure bricks your computer.

Higher levels of integration reduce the overall risk of hardware failure. The part most prone to wear and tear is the battery, not RAM or SSD. So for repairability the battery must be user replaceable.

All smartphones, including iPhones, must have replaceable batteries by 2027 in the EU​

Fewer people would have a problem with soldered RAM and SSD if upgrades had realistic pricing like double the material costs, or the MBPs, which are thick enough, had an NVMe slot in addition to the soldered SSD.

The upgrade pricing structure is part of marketing Mac’s as a premium product. It’s not directly related to soldering. Apple’s RAM prices were excessive back when memory was still user-upgradable. If price is your biggest concern, you can’t buy any product from Apple.

The Studio has already proven that there is no performance reason for the SSD to be integrated and non-removable.

The SSD controller is already integrated into the M1 chip, but the storage chips themselves don’t need to be soldered onto the logic board, as demonstrated by the Mac Studio. Nonetheless for security reasons you can’t simply swap modules, but Apple could offer a storage replacement/expansion service. And they would charge Apple prices for it.

 

[Gudi]

Victory is yours! 🏆

I have generally found that there are two types of people who defy all logical reasoning. There are fanatics (zealots if you like) and there are lunatics. Hopefully you are not one of those, as it would explain your odd behaviour.

I am neither. I am an INTP (Logician) personality. My strange tendency to over-analyze absolutely everything from every angle and come to my very own personal conclusion is bound to seem erratic and eccentric to people who can’t follow my frequent mental leaps. But I’m not defying all logic reasoning, I am way too logic to explain myself.