Kroger Begins Accepting Apple Pay at All Ralphs Grocery Stores in California

[lartola]

Sure, but if they can get those same gains with something QR based, they're going to go with that--especially since there's a lot smaller of an investment required vs. actually having wireless devices that servers carry around.

Plus, the banks really only care that contactless/Apple Pay is getting used at all, not necessarily that the customer is the one tapping. If that means that restaurant servers tap customers' physical cards for them in the back (with some smaller fraction of people who are wanting to use Apple Pay simply using the restaurant's QR code interface instead), so be it. In fact, banks may eventually end up preferring physical cards be tapped to avoid Apple's 0.15% cut, even if it is ultimately a downgrade in security.

The investment on the wireless devices doesn’t have to be so big. Or doesn’t leasing exist at all in the US? because in most other countries, merchants usually lease the equipment from their bank or payment services provider, they don’t buy it. Must they buy it in the US?

With regard to the 0.15%, that actually depends on whether the bank allows its own customers to add their cards to wallet. If it does, it has to pay Apple’s cut. If it doesn’t then it doesn’t have to pay Apple’s cut. For example, BBVA in Mexico does not allow its customers to add their cards to wallet, but the card readers supplied to merchants by BBVA do take Apple Pay just fine. BBVA doesn’t have to pay anything to Apple, even if some of the customers paid with Apple Pay at places using their card readers.

As for restaurants in the US no longer allowing the staff to process payments away from the tables at all, that will only happen if an additional liability shift were put in place for restaurants, such as holding them liable for any fraud that may occur if they’re taking the cards away from the owners. Just like they are already being held liable if they haven’t upgraded from magstripe to chip.

 

[lartola]

in other chip and signature markets (Mexico prior to their transition to PIN, for example), there actually was a mandate for pay at the table, so at least those places saw some sort of security benefit.

And I believe that mandate did include a liability shift with restaurants being held liable for any fraud that may occur if they are found to be processing card payments away from the owners the cards (just as they are held liable if they didn’t upgrade to chip).

 

[tmiw]

The investment on the wireless devices doesn’t have to be so big. Or doesn’t leasing exist at all in the US? because in most other countries, merchants usually lease the equipment from their bank or payment services provider, they don’t buy it. Must they buy it in the US?

Leasing is definitely not the norm in the US. In fact, leasing is kinda considered a ripoff by merchants from what I've seen, so they seem to vastly prefer buying instead. Of course, that's one of many reasons why it took so long for the US to get chip in the first place, let alone contactless (even after the EMV liability shift was finally imposed in 2015).

With regard to the 0.15%, that actually depends on whether the bank allows its own customers to add their cards to wallet. If it does, it has to pay Apple’s cut. If it doesn’t then it doesn’t have to pay Apple’s cut. For example, BBVA in Mexico does not allow its customers to add their cards to wallet, but the card readers supplied to merchants by BBVA do take Apple Pay just fine. BBVA doesn’t have to pay anything to Apple, even if some of the customers paid with Apple Pay at places using their card readers.

By banks and issuers preferring people tap physical cards over Apple Pay, I was referring to their own cards regardless of who owns the terminal.

As for restaurants in the US no longer allowing the staff to process payments away from the tables at all, that will only happen if an additional liability shift were put in place for restaurants, such as holding them liable for any fraud that may occur if they’re taking the cards away from the owners. Just like they are already being held liable if they haven’t upgraded from magstripe to chip.

One issue is being able or willing to enforce such a rule. There are already at least several different card network rules that don't really get enforced all that well IMO (for example, you're not supposed to surcharge debit cards even if run as credit, but in practice the places that surcharge do so regardless of card type). It would likely have to be done at the government level to truly have teeth, especially as it's already considered culturally acceptable by people to lose sight of their own cards--but then that brings up whether the government is willing to legislate against something people are generally okay with in the first place.

And I believe that mandate did include a liability shift with restaurants being held liable for any fraud that may occur if they are found to be processing card payments away from the owners the cards (just as they are held liable if they didn’t upgrade to chip).

Was that a government rule/law or something the card networks imposed? I've read some of the latter's rules before but I don't remember seeing anything like that there.

 

[SalisburySam]

I posit that terminal ownership is the biggest factor in NOT adopting newer tech and processes. As @tmiw states, it is rare that a terminal is leased in the US, and ownership significantly reduces costs and continues to be attractive as long as the machine works at all. Only compliance, new Federal mandates, or dead machines are causes for replacement and concomitant process upgrades.

 

[lartola]

I posit that terminal ownership is the biggest factor in NOT adopting newer tech and processes. As @tmiw states, it is rare that a terminal is leased in the US, and ownership significantly reduces costs and continues to be attractive as long as the machine works at all. Only compliance, new Federal mandates, or dead machines are causes for replacement and concomitant process upgrades.

Terminal ownership may reduce costs on the long run, but it heavily increases the initial investment. And it hinders technological advancement because, as you stated, businesses will wait much longer before upgrading. No wonder the US is so backwards compared to Canada, Europe or even Mexico.

 

[tmiw]

Terminal ownership may reduce costs on the long run, but it heavily increases the initial investment. And it hinders technological advancement because, as you stated, businesses will wait much longer before upgrading. No wonder the US is so backwards compared to Canada, Europe or even Mexico.

That's definitely not the only reason, of course. After all, there are a bunch of restaurants that simply strapped Ingenico or Verifone wired PIN pads to the sides of the POS stations, disabled PIN support on them and moved on with their lives (as they were no longer swiping, thus achieving the minimum required to no longer be liable for fraudulent cards).

Really, the issue is more cultural than technological at this point.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Handwriting the tip on the check is outdated.

Not really. Just different.

Furthermore, doing that means the tip will need to be adjusted by the staff at a later time and that leaves the risk of being charged more than one actually authorized.

People keep saying that taking the card away is a security and that the servers can change the tips, etc., but the reality is that it rarely happens, as if it was an actual issue, it would have been changed years ago.

It’s safer to have the tip added on the wireless card reader right before actually charging the card, leaving no need for a later adjustment.

It has its advantages and it has disadvantages. You seem to only acknowledge the advantages, without responding to the negatives.

But americans are stubborn and their sit down restaurants simply won’t ever change.

Restaurants will change when the perceived benefits out weigh the negatives. Some have started to offer wireless terminals, but since most customers do not care, the change will be slow.

Anyone who doesn’t like their outdated methods, just don’t go to any sit down restaurants when you visit the US.

I am still trying to understand what your fear is. Credit Cards have been accepted at the vast majority of U.S. restaurants for much longer than any where else in the world, and the incidence of skimming by restaurant staff is minuscule. If this process terrifies you so much, you can always pay in cash.

 

[zecanard]

Today I saw someone placing their card on the reader to pay at King Soopers (Kroger’s Brand in Colorado), and when I walked up to the terminal, it read, “Insert, Swipe, or Tap Card to Pay.”

I don’t know how long it’s been this way, but Kroger may finally be rolling out NFC payment to all its stores nationwide 🙌🏼

 

[SalisburySam]

…Kroger may finally be rolling out NFC payment to all its stores nationwide 🙌🏼

I hope you’re right, though I don’t share your optimism about this. Too much embedded tech and too expensive to change during this time of shortages, short staffing, and lower-than-normally-low margins. I would expect the short staffing to help the margins to be honest, but I‘m not seeing it.

 

[satcomer]

In California, the only people left in California are movie stars and homeless people with cities failing on every level! when the speed across the US/Canada interior stores!

 

[msackey]

I hope you’re right, though I don’t share your optimism about this. Too much embedded tech and too expensive to change during this time of shortages, short staffing, and lower-than-normally-low margins. I would expect the short staffing to help the margins to be honest, but I‘m not seeing it.

I wondered too.

Harris Teeter (HT) is a chain of grocery stores where I live that was bought out by Kroger. HT doesn't have tap to pay. Recently HT upgraded their mobile app to include an app wallet type of function. You store your credit card info in their mobile app wallet, then when it comes time to pay I think the mobile app produces a QR code in which the cashier can scan to pay. I think this is a new development and that makes me think HT is not going to be adopting tap to pay any time soon. Unbelievable that HT still doesn't accept tap to pay!

 

[SalisburySam]

I wondered too.

Harris Teeter (HT) is a chain of grocery stores where I live that was bought out by Kroger. HT doesn't have tap to pay. Recently HT upgraded their mobile app to include an app wallet type of function. You store your credit card info in their mobile app wallet, then when it comes time to pay I think the mobile app produces a QR code in which the cashier can scan to pay. I think this is a new development and that makes me think HT is not going to be adopting tap to pay any time soon. Unbelievable that HT still doesn't accept tap to pay!

Yes, I too noticed that as we have Harris Teeter in our area, no Krogers. Given this new feature exists, and was likely done to avoid replacing expensive hardware, I doubt we’ll see Apply Pay anytime soon if at all. I noticed the hype on the app as you enroll in HT’s Mobile Pay program: “…Mobile Pay is actually safer than using your credit card: When you checkout, we create a code that acts as payment instead of your card. So your credit card information is never shared when you make a purchase.” So, instead of adopting Apple’s offering, yet another one hits the market instead. I see no Apple Pay nor any tap-to-pay at HT anytime soon.

Coincidentally, I received yesterday new credit cards with tap-to-pay features enabled. I look forward to using them in Europe, but pretty much unneeded here in the US.

 

[zecanard]

Harris Teeter (HT) is a chain of grocery stores where I live that was bought out by Kroger. HT doesn't have tap to pay. Recently HT upgraded their mobile app to include an app wallet type of function. You store your credit card info in their mobile app wallet, then when it comes time to pay I think the mobile app produces a QR code in which the cashier can scan to pay. I think this is a new development and that makes me think HT is not going to be adopting tap to pay any time soon.

Kroger Pay has been around for years, including at King Soopers where NFC payments were recently introduced. You only got Kroger Pay at Harris Teeter as a result of their purchase by Kroger, not because of some new development at Kroger. I bet your “new” Harris Teeter app is just a reskinned Kroger app, like all of Kroger’s other store apps.

 

[msackey]

Kroger Pay has been around for years, including at King Soopers where NFC payments were recently introduced. You only got Kroger Pay at Harris Teeter as a result of their purchase by Kroger, not because of some new development at Kroger. I bet your “new” Harris Teeter app is just a reskinned Kroger app, like all of Kroger’s other store apps.

Hopefully it’s true what you’re saying about HT. I am hoping that HT soon will have tap to pay. However, HT was bought out by Kroger in 2013, so either it’s taking Kroger a long time to get mobile pay to HT or maybe there’s something different going on.

 

[tmiw]

Hopefully it’s true what you’re saying about HT. I am hoping that HT soon will have tap to pay. However, HT was bought out by Kroger in 2013, so either it’s taking Kroger a long time to get mobile pay to HT or maybe there’s something different going on.

It wouldn't surprise me if Kroger was waiting until they absolutely can't hold off any longer before enabling it at specific brands. If so, it would explain why Ralphs only just now got it; pretty much every other grocery chain here in Southern California (besides Walmart, if you count them as one) has had NFC for years now.

 

[lartola]

Yes, I too noticed that as we have Harris Teeter in our area, no Krogers. Given this new feature exists, and was likely done to avoid replacing expensive hardware, I doubt we’ll see Apply Pay anytime soon if at all. I noticed the hype on the app as you enroll in HT’s Mobile Pay program: “…Mobile Pay is actually safer than using your credit card: When you checkout, we create a code that acts as payment instead of your card. So your credit card information is never shared when you make a purchase.” So, instead of adopting Apple’s offering, yet another one hits the market instead. I see no Apple Pay nor any tap-to-pay at HT anytime soon.

Coincidentally, I received yesterday new credit cards with tap-to-pay features enabled. I look forward to using them in Europe, but pretty much unneeded here in the US.

Are you sure they’d have to replace expensive hardware, though? I mean, the holdouts (except maybe Walmart) usually already have the necessary hardware for tap to pay and just keep that feature disabled. That being the case, they can enable it via software if they ever choose to or have to. That was what other well known holdouts such as CVS or Target did when they finally relented and started allowing tap to pay at their stores.

As others already pointed out, the new app may simply be a result of HT being acquired by Kroger.

BTW tap to pay now comes with pretty much every card in the US. Places such as Kroger’s HT are actually exceptions, not the rule, as most US merchants already accept tap to pay except for those few holdouts, some gas stations (at the pumps), most sit down restaurants and the majority of the hotels.

 

[SalisburySam]

Are you sure they’d have to replace expensive hardware, though? I mean, the holdouts (except maybe Walmart) usually already have the necessary hardware for tap to pay and just keep that feature disabled. That being the case, they can enable it via software if they ever choose to or have to.

No, not sure, and you’re likely right. I’m going to try the QR code process at my local HT this week to see what new and exciting things that brings to my shopping experience. Since it is a new feature brought about in the most recent app update, I wonder how familiar the cashiers will be with it. It is what it is I guess.

 

[compwiz1202]

The only disadvantage I ever see to NFC payments is when ithey don't work. Like stupid Wawa last night. AP kept failing, and I even carry the card, but it wasn't reading it as a chip card, so that failed. Went to Sheetz, and everything worked perfectly. So going there from now on until something goes wrong there. Easier to get in and out of anyhow, and I like the app sampler.

 

[lartola]

The only disadvantage I ever see to NFC payments is when ithey don't work. Like stupid Wawa last night. AP kept failing, and I even carry the card, but it wasn't reading it as a chip card, so that failed. Went to Sheetz, and everything worked perfectly. So going there from now on until something goes wrong there. Easier to get in and out of anyhow, and I like the app sampler.

Well it looks like the issue at Wawa wasn’t related to NFC, but rather their system simply not processing card payments properly, as the payment via chip also failed to work.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Coincidentally, I received yesterday new credit cards with tap-to-pay features enabled. I look forward to using them in Europe, but pretty much unneeded here in the US.

They are ”unneeded” every where as you can always use your card without tapping, however the vast majority of U.S. retail locations accept NFC. In an average week I encounter from zero to one merchants that do not accept it (depending on if I need to go to Home Depot or Lowes that week).

 

[Alan Wynn]

Are you sure they’d have to replace expensive hardware, though?

It is possible that not every store in the company has replaced their terminals for current generation ones, so that might be a factor in deciding when Kroger turns on NFC at a brand.

I mean, the holdouts (except maybe Walmart) usually already have the necessary hardware for tap to pay and just keep that feature disabled.

That is definitely true at Home Depot, where Apple Pay worked for a while and then got turned off.

That being the case, they can enable it via software if they ever choose to or have to. That was what other well known holdouts such as CVS or Target did when they finally relented and started allowing tap to pay at their stores.

Or “re-enable” it in the case of Home Depot and CVS (at both it worked, then they disabled it, CVS re-enabled it much sooner due to competition from Walgreen’s).

BTW tap to pay now comes with pretty much every card in the US. Places such as Kroger’s HT are actually exceptions, not the rule, as most US merchants already accept tap to pay except for those few holdouts, some gas stations (at the pumps), most sit down restaurants and the majority of the hotels.

That is my experience. I think gas stations have been slow to upgrade their pumps as their margins on gas tend to be low, and they like customers going into the store where they make the most money on other items. I wonder if it is the majority of hotels now that do not accept it. I know that most (if not all) of Hyatt’s hotels, and many (if not most or all) Marriott properties accept it.

 

[compwiz1202]

They are ”unneeded” every where as you can always use your card without tapping, however the vast majority of U.S. retail locations accept NFC. In an average week I encounter from zero to one merchants that do not accept it (depending on if I need to go to Home Depot or Lowes that week).

Yea HD Lowes WM and the three that I know for sure don't take it, so I avoid. Even temporary carnivals in parking lots took it

 

[echopulse]

Today I saw someone placing their card on the reader to pay at King Soopers (Kroger’s Brand in Colorado), and when I walked up to the terminal, it read, “Insert, Swipe, or Tap Card to Pay.”

I don’t know how long it’s been this way, but Kroger may finally be rolling out NFC payment to all its stores nationwide 🙌🏼

Kroger brands QFC, Ralphs, and King Soopers have rolled outTap to Pay, but it's other brands have not yet. Some think they are doing it brand by brand, so I hope Harris Teeter or Fred Meyers are coming soon.

 

[echopulse]

Yea HD Lowes WM and the three that I know for sure don't take it, so I avoid. Even temporary carnivals in parking lots took it

Out of the top 100 retailers in the US, only Wal-Mart& Sams, Lowes, Home Depot, Hobby Lobby, HEB, Most Kroger stores, and Winco do not accept NFC payments.

 

[verdi1987]

They are ”unneeded” every where as you can always use your card without tapping, however the vast majority of U.S. retail locations accept NFC. In an average week I encounter from zero to one merchants that do not accept it (depending on if I need to go to Home Depot or Lowes that week).

Lowe’s is a strange holdout. My Lowe’s switched to 100% self-checkout and got brand new terminals, but yet NFC is disabled on them.