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Larry is at least someone who is invited to apple to try out and comment on their software. Sorry to say, but I trust his word a bit more than the posters on MR

I agree. There may have been many threads about a MacPro, Apple's rationale to build it (or not) and it's possible configuration, but as per anything definitive? I've yet to read it.

This particular forum seems to be a magnet for a certain type of poster: Lots of heat and hubris. Not always so much light. LOL.

I don't mean to cast a wide net with that comment. If the shoe fits...try it on.

I was glad to hear Larry's comments and glad the OP linked us up.
 
Whatever they do to the design, I just hope they don't let that same "visionary" idiot that ruined FCP have anything to say about it,

I have to say I think FCPX is pretty visionary, and the future. Have you tried the .8 release?
It's really getting somewhere. Things are still missing and it's not perfect, but it has improved alot since its initial (horrible) release.
Maybe they learned something from that release, and are waiting to release the MP until they have got it right?
One can at least always hope
 
It's Virginia Tech's supercomputer, System X. It is made from 1100 Apple Xserve G5s. It was completed somewhere around 2005.[/URL]

That was back in the day when Apple 'pro' hardware had a Unique Selling Point in its PPC G5 architecture, that was arguably better than contemporary 'Pentium 4'-era Intel kit (probably Intel's 'low' point).

Nowadays, in a machine-room situation where aesthetics and a nice desktop GUI are not key features, I don't see any reason to choose Apple over generic PC kit (of which there is a far wider range). Neither did Apple when they kitted out their new data centre - I suspect that was one factor in the demise of the XServe - how could you sell it with a straight face when you don't use it yourself?

Extremely unlikely. "Thunderbolt or bust" is a more likely cause of baby going out with the bath water type of change

Well, Thunderbolt does reduce the need for internal expansion - it gives PCIe-like speeds (& low CPU overhead) to external boxes so you don't need spare internal 3.5" hard drive bays, or any optical bays. You don't need PCIe slots for specialist interfaces, video/audio digitisers etc. because even if there aren't 'native' TB versions they can live in external TB-to-PCIe enclosures.

That means that Apple could reduce the size (and possibly cost) and make a compact 'super mini' just large enough to include a workstation-class processor and plenty of space for RAM...

...with One Small Problem - video. One reason people buy Pros is that they need high-end and/or multiple video cards. For these people, Intel on-chip graphics are not going to cut it, nor is the sort of mobile-class discrete GPU that fits in a small-form-factor case. At the moment, they're the one thing that probably won't work well on TB. AFAIK OS X doesn't yet support graphics via TB - but even if that is fixed, GPUs are one thing that does use multiple lanes of PCIe.

Overall, though, although readers may have very good reasons for needing a workstation-class machine, the range of tasks for which an iMac, Mini or MBP is quite adequate is continuously expanding. You certainly don't need a Pro for software or website development any more. Eventually, its not going to be worth Apple's while to develop machines for the dwindling pool of 'Pro' users.
 
Well, Thunderbolt does reduce the need for internal expansion - it gives PCIe-like speeds (& low CPU overhead) to external boxes so you don't need spare internal 3.5" hard drive bays, or any optical bays.

USB 2.0 is sufficient to handle most optical bandwidth needs. USB 3.0 is more than sufficient. Thunderbolt doesn't bring anything to the table to specifically address external optical bays. You could add them "for free" to an external 3.5" HDD bay box.

It would be more than extremely dubious design to toss all of the SATA out of a Mac Pro. The core I/O chipset already has a SATA controller in it. That chipset has to be inside the main box. Since that SATA is controller is already paid for it should be used. Swapping multiple 2.5" bays for leagcy 5.25" bays would make far more sense.

Thunderbolt reduces the need for just about one x4 PCI-e slot. The current Mac Pro has two of those and two more x16 PCI-e slots that Thunderbolt doesn't come close to being an equivalent of.


You don't need PCIe slots for specialist interfaces, video/audio digitisers etc. because even if there aren't 'native' TB versions they can live in external TB-to-PCIe enclosures.

There is little to no indications that this is cost effective or cost competitive. Sure Apple could go to a system that is more expensive and less competitive. .... but why would they want to do that?


That means that Apple could reduce the size (and possibly cost) and make a compact 'super mini' just large enough to include a workstation-class processor and plenty of space for RAM...

The possibility of a cost decrease with TB is slim to none. It doesn't for an equivalent system. You can buy a smaller, less capable system perhaps but if even out capacities and functionality the cost will increase. Increased modularity typically drives up costs; not reduce them. Integration drives down costs (and/or increases profit margins ).

Go look at the server market and compare "classic" servers and "blade" solutions. The blade solutions are all more expensive. Mid-range to hyper-scale modularity increases costs because the interconnect and shared utilization costs go up.

The super mini concept is dubious because a workstation-class competitive box still needs one (and probably 2 ) x16 slots that host 150+ W cards. So those 1-2 cards but the TDP of a workstation CPU packages(s) couple to low decibel cooling system is not going to equal a "super mini". Even a Mac Pro 1/3 smaller is far from "super mini" characterization.



AFAIK OS X doesn't yet support graphics via TB - but even if that is fixed, GPUs are one thing that does use multiple lanes of PCIe.

Depends upon what using the GPUs for. For games that are optimized for PCI-e bandwidth starved mainstream desktop limitations of x16 for the whole system.... not really.

For large scale computations then yes, TB is largely outclassed.


Eventually, its not going to be worth Apple's while to develop machines for the dwindling pool of 'Pro' users.

It is only dwindling if they can't reach an increasing pool of users that have workloads going up. The Mac Pro has just as much of a problem right not of being trapped in market ghetto. There are always groups transitioning to smaller computers. Survival is more so whether can find "new groups" to replace those leaving for other and/or lower price points.
 
He states that it would be totally different than what we have now, but I could easily see Apple taking the lazy route and just adding TB/USB3 and new guts to the exact same chassis. Wouldn't be a bad option really.
 
Thunderbolt doesn't bring anything to the table to specifically address external optical bays.

It doesn't do anything for almost any single device but it does give you the bandwidth to support multi-function devices. E.g. rather than have a mess of external drives scattered over your desk, someone can make a box with 2-4 bays to take a combination of HD, SSD and optical drives.

It would be more than extremely dubious design to toss all of the SATA out of a Mac Pro. The core I/O chipset already has a SATA controller in it. That chipset has to be inside the main box.

I didn't say that - but all that really needs to be in the main box is the system drive - which is increasingly likely to be a SSD. For some users, that's all you need. For other users, you attach an external enclosure tailored to your need (HD/SSD, speed, redundancy, interface...)

The super mini concept is dubious because a workstation-class competitive box still needs one (and probably 2 ) x16 slots that host 150+ W cards.

...mainly for high-end graphics cards. I did say they were the fly in the ointment. If they can find a way of fitting those externally then the "base" box can be smaller, lighter and quieter.

Depends upon what using the GPUs for. For games that are optimized for PCI-e bandwidth starved mainstream desktop limitations of x16 for the whole system.... not really.

Well, Mac isn't a huge 'serious' gaming platform, and any games written for Mac will be optimised for the mobile graphics in an iMac or MBP at best so I don't think gaming is a big issue.

Personally, I don't need a full-blown workstation-class machine but a "super Mini" with similar specs to a high-end iMac would be interesting - and I think it would have wider appeal than a more direct replacement for the pro. It wouldn't satisfy the pro users who couldn't live with mobile-class graphics though.
 
I just had a thought, it wouldn't surprise me if the new Mac Pro only takes SSD drives and old big spinning drives will be too big. That is one way for Apple to save done space.
They are known to drop old tech, and spinning hard drives will eventually be replaced by SSD. Apple might just do it sooner.
I think they will leave space for graphic cards etc otherwise it won't be a workstation anymore
 
Whatever they do to the design, I just hope they don't let that same "visionary" idiot that ruined FCP have anything to say about it,

It might have been an idiot that ruined FCP, but Apple as a whole has approved it and made it available online.

Apple has moved away from "professionals needed". All Apple apps should be easy and intuitive enough so that the creative thinkers don't need to hire software-professionals to help create and finalise the projects. The creative thinkers should be given the simple tools to do it all themselves.
At least, that's the way you can defend:
- Final Cut Studio to Final Cut Pro X
- Mac OS X Snow Leopard Server to Mountain Lion Server
- Elimination of the Xserve
- confusion regarding the future of Mac Pro

Apple is all about simplicity and ease of use.

We might see a Mac Pro update soon (I HOPE SO!!), but I wouldn't bet against it being the last.
 
The cutting of the XServe was disappointing. But if anything I think the cutting of the XServe strengthens the position of the Mac Pro. All the XServe users got pushed onto the Mac Pro.
 
He states that it would be totally different than what we have now, but I could easily see Apple taking the lazy route and just adding TB/USB3 and new guts to the exact same chassis new fan. Wouldn't be a bad option really.

I hope not though!
 
Apple has moved away from "professionals needed". All Apple apps should be easy and intuitive enough so that the creative thinkers don't need to hire software-professionals to help create and finalise the projects. The creative thinkers should be given the simple tools to do it all themselves.
At least, that's the way you can defend:

- Final Cut Studio to Final Cut Pro X

Approachability was never a problem with Final Cut or any other NLE for that matter (well maybe not Avid).
 
Not a problem for the "knowing user".
Apple wanted Final Cut Pro X to be as easy as iMovie, so that everyone can use it. Right away.

I don't think that's the reason it was recoded. It was recoded because the existing code was a mess that had to be rewritten to support 64 bit or multiple cores. It wasn't salvageable.

FCPX is certainly easier, but I wouldn't call it totally approachable for amateur users.
 
I

Apple has moved away from "professionals needed". All Apple apps should be easy and intuitive enough so that the creative thinkers don't need to hire software-professionals to help create and finalise the projects. The creative thinkers should be given the simple tools to do it all themselves.
At least, that's the way you can defend:
- Final Cut Studio to Final Cut Pro X
- Mac OS X Snow Leopard Server to Mountain Lion Server
- Elimination of the Xserve
- confusion regarding the future of Mac Pro

Apple is all about simplicity and ease of use.

We might see a Mac Pro update soon (I HOPE SO!!), but I wouldn't bet against it being the last.

You describe these changes like Apple somehow removed the need for a pipeline of some sort or any level of group organization. To me that doesn't follow. When it comes to "pro" software, like packages that are often $2000 or more per seat, the perceived lack of intuitiveness is often an artifact of the way development has gone. They need to keep it somewhat stable to ensure upgrade sales. A lot of extremely expensive programs can be very buggy with certain features buried in weird parts of the ui. That obviously increases the learning curve, as you must identify quirks and be familiar with many workarounds. It doesn't add anything to the software though. Just trying to make things simple by removing features doesn't really benefit anyone. The software would be easy to learn either way since it received a major design update rather than new features added on top of old ones.
 
Not a problem for the "knowing user".
Apple wanted Final Cut Pro X to be as easy as iMovie, so that everyone can use it. Right away.

Not really. I'd argue the basic core functions of FCP7 are just as intuitive as iMovie and FCPX. Strip away some of the advanced features and it's an incredibly easy program to figure out in minutes of use. Just look at Final Cut Express.

FCP7 had many issues, but ease of use wasn't one of them. That was one of the things that helped launch them to become an "industry standard" of sorts.
 
I kinda hope it would be smaller myself. But I think unless Apple is able pull something out of the system-design future, that isn't going to happen without sacrifice. And such sacrifices can be addressed perfectly by peripherals slash modularity. But I wonder if Apple even knows yet what if anything, the MP6,1 system will actually look like. :p


Since it's been so long since the last MacPro update, I personally think now is not the time to reinvent the wheel...

Check out Wheel 3.0...it's flattened to save space, but rolls* 33% faster than before!

*only rolls when replaced inside rolling adapter sleeve.




I say keep the form factor the same and

Mandatory updates - huge fail on Apple if one of these doesn't happen..

Update the motherboard to accept whatever new fandangled chips Intel has.
Update the PCIe 2.0 to 3.0.
Update FW800 to Thunderbolt.
Update USB2 to USB3.
Update SATA 2 to SATA 3.

Wishful thinking updates - would be really nice, but probably won't happen.

Give me enough power and space internally to power 2 GTX Titans.
Have all USB3 and Thunderbolt ports on dedicated busses.


Keep in mind that, of Apple hundreds of billions of dollars revenue, less than 15% of that exorbitantly high number is ALL MAC SALES...all laptops and desktops. Not sure what the breakdown is after that, but I'd wager apple sells many more laptops than desktops and many more iMacs and Minis than MacPros, regardless of update cycles.

Just my 2 cents.
 
E.g. rather than have a mess of external drives scattered over your desk, someone can make a box with 2-4 bays to take a combination of HD, SSD and optical drives.

How many Mac Pro users have a mess of external drives scattered over their desk now? Relatively few.

You create a problem and then introduce Thunderbolt to solve the problem just created. That is not a good-fit application of technology.

I didn't say that - but all that really needs to be in the main box is the system drive - which is increasingly likely to be a SSD.

The unsupported flaw here is the presumption of this being the requirement ("need").

If 40+% of current Mac Pro users are using more than 3 drives that isn't really supported by what users are actually doing. Sure, if 70% current Mac Pros had 2 or less volumes mounted ( i.e. most folks were running RAID-0 and maybe another drive ) then sure a single SSD probably solves that issue. In that case, most users were previously short-stroking 2-3 drives with RAID-0 ( or RAID-5) striping to get around rotational latency of the HDDs. SSDs largely solve that and the capacities have risen to the point if short-stroking ("throwing away capacity") of a HDD the capacities largely now match ( with a tractable price premium for the SSD solution).

However, if the majority of Mac Pro users have a data size needs (i.e., TBs of space) then the single SSD does not solve the problem (and won't cost effective do so for several years ). You would have added a distinct non-competitive limitation to the system. Systems that more cost effectively allow for 8-12TB capacities will win in product selection competitions.

Users use completed, deployed systems. The requirements are best matched by looking at what the deployed systems are likely to be over a significant sample size. They are not accurately driven by looking a small, narrow samplings.


For some users, that's all you need. For other users, you attach an external enclosure tailored to your need (HD/SSD, speed, redundancy, interface...)

It can't be just "some" users. It has to be "most" users. The standard features of a system must be a value-add features for most of the potential users for the system in general to present value to the potential buyers.




...mainly for high-end graphics cards. I did say they were the fly in the ointment. If they can find a way of fitting those externally then the "base" box can be smaller, lighter and quieter.

Bandwidth is not just high-end graphics cards. Mac Pros hooked to a modern SAN/NAS network that is 10+Gb/s with redundancy are also high-bandwidth consumers. The external box doesn't have to be sitting on the desktop. More than a few Mac Pros are hooked to external boxes that aren't a simple Thunderbolt cable distance away.



Personally, I don't need a full-blown workstation-class machine but a "super Mini" with similar specs to a high-end iMac would be interesting -

Ah the "backdoor" xMac surfaces yet again. Apple composing a xMac will make them largely uncompetitive in the workstation class space. A headless iMac doesn't have anywhere near the bandwidth or the "horsepower" of a workstation class machine. Slapping Thunderbolt on it and tap-dancing claims that addresses the issue are just smoke. It does not solve the missing bandwidth or "horsepower" problem at all. Even the upcoming Falcon ridge update in 2014 won't.


There is a gap in the $1899-2,499 zone that Apple has right now for another "box with slots". I think would be a mistake to mutate the Mac Pro to primarily fit that space. That space probably needs a different product. Whether they 'merge' that product into the Mac Pro umbrella space ( e.g., into "Mac Pro S (shorter)" and "Mac Pro T (taller.. i.e., classic)" ) or just use a different name is up to them.

A Xeon E3 box with Thunderbolt (integrated graphics) , 10GbE sockets , and 1 x16 ( or perhaps two x8 sockets electrical ) would be a better match for those who don't like the top end BTO iMacs but don't quite have needs for a Mac Pro.
 
Since it's been so long since the last MacPro update, I personally think now is not the time to reinvent the wheel...

I say keep the form factor the same and

Mandatory updates:
Update the motherboard to accept whatever new fandangled chips Intel has.
Update the PCIe 2.0 to 3.0.
Update FW800 to Thunderbolt.
Update USB2 to USB3.
Update SATA 2 to SATA 3.​

Wishful thinking updates:
Give me enough power and space internally to power 2 GTX Titans.
Have all USB3 and Thunderbolt ports on dedicated busses.​

Keep in mind that, of Apple hundreds of billions of dollars revenue, less than 15% of that exorbitantly high number is ALL MAC SALES...all laptops and desktops. Not sure what the breakdown is after that, but I'd wager apple sells many more laptops than desktops and many more iMacs and Minis than MacPros, regardless of update cycles.

Just my 2 cents.

Yep! The only thing I can't agree with here is the message formatting (fixed). :D
 
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The unsupported flaw here is the presumption of this being the requirement ("need").

If 40+% of current Mac Pro users are using more than 3 drives that isn't really supported by what users are actually doing.

The requirement (need) is that Apple need a system that distinguishes itself from custom-built PC maxi-tower workstations, or they won't make any money.

One distinguishing factor used to be superior architecture (68K vs. IBM-AT-knobbled 286/386, then PPC versus Pentium).

Another distinguishing factor used to be the OS (Classic/OS X vs Windows 3/95/98) - these days Win7 is a half-decent 64 bit OS rather than the half-baked DOS shells of the past. Yeah, I prefer the UNIX-based OS X, but its no longer night and day... and then there's always Linux if you're doing server-based or scientific computing. About the only remaining "pro" killer app for OS X is iOS & OS X development - for which a fully tricked-out Mini is more than adequate.

Then there is software availability: these days, more and more big-name "creative pro" software is either dual-platform or PC-only.

So, lets see, I can spec-up a Windows workstation to my exact requirements, with a nice, tool-free case (maybe silent liquid cooling? Rackmount?) a completely free choice of motherboard, CPU, Graphics and storage (and be pretty confident that it will all work together and that I can update it piecemeal in the future with third-party components)... or I can get a Mac Pro that (on past performance) will be reasonable, but not exceptional, value-for-money when it first launches, but will rapidly fall behind until the next (unpredictable) update, with a fairly constrained list of build-to-order and aftermarket updates.

Sorry - OS X is great, but nobody needs it that much any more. If I wanted a workstation I'd spec up exactly what I needed.

Your "40% of current Mac Pro users" represents fewer users that 40% of Mac Pro users 5 years ago and - even if Apple updates the Mac Pro with new chipsets etc. there will be fewer still in 2 years time.

Apple needs something different to the PC alternatives that it can sell at a premium to people who don't really need a workstation.
 
A Xeon E3 box with Thunderbolt (integrated graphics) , 10GbE sockets , and 1 x16 ( or perhaps two x8 sockets electrical ) would be a better match for those who don't like the top end BTO iMacs but don't quite have needs for a Mac Pro.

Especially if you threw in a low powered E3 options with 3-4 HDD bays to make a nice OSX home server system.

Right now, I think that's the major weak point in the Apple Ecosystem. A Mac Pro is just too big and too costly for simple home server needs. The Mac Mini server is a joke with 2x1TB drives at $1000. Even for after-market customization the 2.5 form factor is a problem. If you want bulk storage with back up all internal, its just silly to try to use 2.5" bays.

A Mac Mini Pro or something similar with a low powered E3, 3-4 3.5" bays, maybe a single 2.5" SSD for boot, and your listings above in something video game console sized would be a nice product. And it would a be a great compliment to an Apple TV or future iTV....
 
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