Latest project finally went live

[radiantm3]

I actually finished the site a few months ago. I've just been waiting for client approval. Anyways, it's finally up and I just thought I'd share. Any thoughts are welcome, although since the site is complete, I can't really change anything about it at this point.

>>Linky<<

Update: If you read the later posts in this thread you will see that my original design was hijacked.

Check out what he did compared to my original design.

 

[nightelf]

Looks really nice

 

[calculus]

I can't really change anything about it at this point.

Well, it's just as well you made such a good job of it then

 

[ThunderLounge]

Thumbs up Rad.

Clean, effective, no tables, and validates.


You did give me a sigh of relief in your comment about it being done for a couple of months. I too have a project that's ready to launch, but the client is rather sporadic in communications. At least their bill is paid, so it's not my time being wasted.

 

[njmac]

Nice!

I checked out your site too and I like your work.

 

[radiantm3]

I just received the most ridiculous call. It's scary how many "web designers" out there are so clueless.

One of the site owner's son just called me saying he was going to be in charge of maintaining and updating this website. The first thing he asks me is what font I'm using on the site. I told him it's all in the stylesheet and he keeps trying to tell me that he's been going through all of his 1000 or so fonts on his computer and could not find a single match. So I tell him it's "Trebuchet MS". He goes on to tell me he doesn't have that font because he is on a Mac. So I go on to tell him that I'm also on a mac and I have the font available. I then ask him what version of Mac OS he has and quickly says "don't worry I have the latest everything".

I continue on to try and explain that he doesn't need the font because the whole site is driven by css and that all he needs to do is update the content. He basically ignores what I say and insists that he needs the font to update the website (although all the text on the site is plain text). He says he is opening up the files (php) in adobe golive and there are a bunch of errors and the fonts aren't available. Keep in mind I have never used adobe golive in my life, but I don't think it's very useful for working with css/xhtml and php files. So I tell him that he shouldn't open the files in golive and use a text editor instead. What kind of response do I get next? He goes on to say that he's been in the web design business for years and knows what he is doing. Then he tells me that he's going to have to modify the site so that he can work on it in golive.

It's amazing how people like this are still able to run a web design business this day in age. I quickly gave the client who originally gave me this project a call to warn him about the situation and how there's a good chance his site is going to be ruined if he lets the guy modify it. I can see it now. Table layouts, and images for text all over the place.

I just don't understand why the guy was so rude and short with me. He kept trying to defend himself that he was a very experienced web designer. I wasn't even able to explain to him how easy it is to update the site.

 

[ThunderLounge]

Dude, your story just made my day.

Yes! I'm not alone!

I've had similar experiences, although you may consider them worse. Their best friend was frontpage.

In fact, I'm "dealing" with one of those types at the moment. Client wants a new site, wants "little brother's firm" to do the updates once I've finished the initial work. OK, so I get this guy on a conference call, they're in N.D. or somewhere up there, and I'm all prepared to show him how to update the site. First thing he says, "OK, I've got frontpage open, what's the info do I can download the initial files?"

I'm lucky I hadn't eaten lunch yet, else it would have come back up.

So I told him he didn't need frontpage. Response? "Oh, well we don't use dreamweaver."

My reply?

You don't need that either. Response? *silence*, then... "But all sites are built with either frontpage or dreamweaver, and most of them are frontpage."


So, without trying to reach through the phone and strangle him, or ask him how many clients they've screwed out of money, I simply said you're obviously on a pc so all you'll need is notepad.

More silence.

Response: "Now you're just being silly. I knew it! How can you see what you're doing with notepad!"


This situation has ended on a positive note. After less than 10 minutes on the phone with my client, her "little brother's firm" won't be updating her site, and she won't be referring business to them anymore. Instead, she made the right call.


It amazes me the crap some people can get away with. "Cross-browser compliance? W3C? WTF is that crap?"

Ugh, the pain of being able to do things right.

I'm almost thinking we should start a support group Rad. If the "merom" threads can do it, so can we.

 

[billyboy]

Neat and tidy site with some great text that relects what Aikido is all about. Good one. And though he cant act, Seagal is still the Aikido man!

 

[Voidness]

Very nice work indeed. Clean "handcrafted" design

I'm also a web designer. It's very frustrating to deal with people who claim to be "experienced web designers". When you see their work, it's all based on tables infested with <font> tags!

One of the hardest things I've faced recently is making a design for a site developed with Microsoft Visual Studio .NET (and dealing with the developers of the site ) You won't believe the things I've gone through with these sites!

 

[c-Row]

I'm also a web designer. It's very frustrating to deal with people who claim to be "experienced web designers". When you see their work, it's all based on tables infested with <font> tags!

I have stopped being frustrated with them. I just accept what they are doing (wrong) and let nature sort them out.

 

[72930]

I am not a web designer, but also feel the need to butt in. I was very proud of my quickie, simple, dreamweaver website (now taken down), which I made when I was eleven. My friends were also quite impressed, but then put me down after they later told me it was so easy to do, after each and every one made a piczo site and most made a...DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO PUKE...myspace 'site'.

Back on topic...I think your site is perfect, not too cluttered, but easy to find what youre looking for.

 

[radiantm3]

Very nice work indeed. Clean "handcrafted" design

I'm also a web designer. It's very frustrating to deal with people who claim to be "experienced web designers". When you see their work, it's all based on tables infested with <font> tags!

One of the hardest things I've faced recently is making a design for a site developed with Microsoft Visual Studio .NET (and dealing with the developers of the site ) You won't believe the things I've gone through with these sites!

I work in a VS.net environment at work. It's tough to just accept the fact that it sucks and deal with it. Probably what I hate most about .net is the fact that all the markup has to be contained by a form tag and that the form tag isn't even used for forms themselves. Then there's the whole issue of dealing with IIS. Microsoft server and development software is crap.

 

[elppa]

Sounds like you need a simple CMS. That way they can bugger less of it up.

It would be a real shame to see your clean layout ruined.

 

[radiantm3]

Looks like the guy went at it and screwed up the site.

Check out what he did compared to my original design.

 

[elppa]

Mmmm...

<td colspan="2"><font color="#46422a"><span class="content">

nice.

What a moron.

Anyone who can take this:

<dd class="selected"><a href="/html/laaikikai/about/">About Us</a></dd>

And turn it into this:

<tr>
<td cssliceid="1F447A51">
<a onmousedown="changeImages('About', 'LAAikiKaiNav.data_/About-over.gif'); return true;" onmouseup="changeImages('About', 'LAAikiKaiNav.data_/About-over.gif'); return true;" onmouseover="changeImages('About', 'LAAikiKaiNav.data_/About-over.gif'); return true;" onmouseout="changeImages('About', 'LAAikiKaiNav.data_/About.gif'); return true;" href="content/aboutus.html" target="_self">
<img src="LAAikiKaiNav.data_/About.gif" alt="About Us" name="About" height="22" width="200" border="0" /></a></td>
</tr>

in the name of "improvement" Should be shot.

88 lines, 4834 bytes

versus

226 lines, 16,885 bytes

Well the only satisfaction is thanks to the "improvements" he'll be paying for 4x the bandwidth every single time the page is downloaded.

Edit: That's actually probably quite a conservative estimate due to of all those images shoved in to replace what were beautifully styled menus and pull quotes.

 

[kgarner]

Looks like the guy went at it and screwed up the site.

Check out what he did compared to my original design.

Let us all observe a moment of silence for this travesty. Things like this really make a lot of the recent talk of a professional body for Web Designers seem like a really good idea.

 

[ThunderLounge]

Mark, this sucks the big one.

Not to mention 31 validation errors now as well.


I'm glad I'm not in you're shoes at the moment. I'd be on the horn and p***ed.

But hey, at least you:

a) got paid.

b) delivered a quality product.


What happens to it after the fact might suck, but if you're not responsible for it, what can you do? That would be like "Dr. Z" crying over every wrecked Dodge Viper.

I know it doesn't help, but if you can't control it, what can you do?

Other than upload the original files, and change the FTP password!

 

[radiantm3]

Mark, this sucks the big one.

Not to mention 31 validation errors now as well.


I'm glad I'm not in you're shoes at the moment. I'd be on the horn and p***ed.

But hey, at least you:

a) got paid.

b) delivered a quality product.


What happens to it after the fact might suck, but if you're not responsible for it, what can you do? That would be like "Dr. Z" crying over every wrecked Dodge Viper.

I know it doesn't help, but if you can't control it, what can you do?

Other than upload the original files, and change the FTP password!

Yea, in the end I did get paid, but I think of every project I do as a portfolio piece as well. The funny thing is that I submitted the sight last night to a few CSS galleries. Imagine the laugh they got when they checked the site today. Anyways, my client contact got back to me today and said he would try to get this solved and my original files back on the server. He's one of the instructors and had nothing to do with the change.

After some searching (he didn't remove the author meta tags that golive generated), I found the guy who butchered the site.

 

[Aperture]

I found the guy who butchered the site.

Thats really too bad man, I checked is 'portfolio' and he has the site you designed listed! He made a few bad changes to the HTML and made it look like he designed it.

Some web developer! Those colors on his site really hurt my eyes and that horrible music...

From his site:

Websites are databases. Design skills, programming knowledge and database administration are all needed to achieve the end result.

Unfortunately he doesn't have any of those.

By the way, I would talk to him about how he acts like he designed the site and get that straightened out.

Kevin

 

[Keebler]

wow! First off, great site. clean, well laid out...very nice.

as for his staking claim, I would so kick his a$$ on that one. I would give him 3 days to take that off or he'll be getting a letter from your lawyer to cease and desist (if that's the right expression).

brutal how some folks rip others off. this is the type of moron who took credit for group projects in school too.

what a punk.

 

[mac 2005]

I actually finished the site a few months ago. I've just been waiting for client approval. Anyways, it's finally up and I just thought I'd share. Any thoughts are welcome, although since the site is complete, I can't really change anything about it at this point.

>>Linky<<

Update: If you read the later posts in this thread you will see that my original design was hijacked.

Check out what he did compared to my original design.

I have read all of these posts, and I've read your post as well. I don't get it. The sites fundamentally look the same to me. Am I to understand that that person changed your style sheets in some way that made the final design somehow not "www" compliant? If so, please say so, because a good number of people aren't likely to see your complaint. Not that I know good html from bad -- lord knows that I still use tables! That said, please be clear so that the rest of us may learn.

 

[radiantm3]

I have read all of these posts, and I've read your post as well. I don't get it. The sites fundamentally look the same to me. Am I to understand that that person changed your style sheets in some way that made the final design somehow not "www" compliant? If so, please say so, because a good number of people aren't likely to see your complaint. Not that I know good html from bad -- lord knows that I still use tables! That said, please be clear so that the rest of us may learn.

You have much to learn, young padawan.

The way a website looks is only a percentage of the package. That's like saying, who cares how the food tastes, as long as it looks good. But you can't even say that because not only is the markup, accessibility, and usability thrashed, the design wasn't even kept in tact.

 

[mac 2005]

You have much to learn, young padawan.

The way a website looks is only a percentage of the package. That's like saying, who cares how the food tastes, as long as it looks good. But you can't even say that because not only is the markup, accessibility, and usability thrashed, the design wasn't even kept in tact.

Yes, I have much to learn -- which is why I have the nerve to ask. Show me what I'm missing vs. telling me that I am missing something -- the Web will be a better place for your trouble, I assure you.

OK. I just looked at the source code for both versions of the sites, and I see the difference.

 

[radiantm3]

Yes, I have much to learn -- which is why I have the nerve to ask. Show me what I'm missing vs. telling me that I am missing something -- the Web will be a better place for your trouble, I assure you.

Well basically he tore down my hand-coded table-less markup and brought it back with a table-infested mess with the help of Adobe Golive. Almost all of the text has been replaced with images, not even with alt tags. The site markup was originally separated nicely with php includes, but he managed to throw everything back together and name it .html so if some UI element has to be updated, he has to update the code on every single page on the site (Maybe he wants to milk the company with lots of site maintenance time?). He even managed to rip out the javascript code that cycled through random quotes on every page refresh. And forget about trying to print a page because since the CSS layout is gone, so is the print stylesheet.

The homepage has about 16 errors (previously had 0) and now the site couldn't be further from accessible and search engine friendly.

Did I miss anything?

PS. For those who are aspiring web designers can't really see what I am complaining about, please.... PLEASE... grab a copy of this book. The web would be a much better place if those who created web content at least knew the basics (and a lot more) of web design.

 

[mac 2005]

Well basically he tore down my hand-coded table-less markup and brought it back with a table-infested mess with the help of Adobe Golive. Almost all of the text has been replaced with images, not even with alt tags. The site markup was originally separated nicely with php includes, but he managed to throw everything back together and name it .html so if some UI element has to be updated, he has to update the code on every single page on the site (Maybe he wants to milk the company with lots of site maintenance time?). He even managed to rip out the javascript code that cycled through random quotes on every page refresh. And forget about trying to print a page because since the CSS layout is gone, so is the print stylesheet.

The homepage has about 16 errors (previously had 0) and now the site couldn't be further from accessible and search engine friendly.

Did I miss anything?

PS. For those who are aspiring web designers can't really see what I am complaining about, please.... PLEASE... grab a copy of this book. The web would be a much better place if those who created web content at least knew the basics (and a lot more) of web design.

Thanks! Your comments were what I expected after I had the sense to look at the source code. Speaking of Web standards, I am about to dive into this book so that I can move beyond tables and "icky" html "bad code". Am I on the right path?