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magbarn

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2008
3,016
2,380
iPad Pro has ProMotion display, camera array among other things. These are way more expensive than a keyboard and trackpad....
In 2020, I doubt that. FaceID is now old news, the iphone X is 3 years old at this point. Promotion is Applespeak. Many cheaper phones than iphone already are sporting 120hz displays on OLED. The ipad uses a much cheaper LCD. If it was so cheap to make a high quality trackpad/keyboard, why is Apple's version for the ipad Pro so dang expensive?

Those expecting Apple to give you a much better laptop than 2017 Macbook 12 and then drop the price by $500 (yes it went on sale frequently, but the BASE price for the macbook 12 was $1299!) are dreaming. I doubt Apple was paying Intel $500 per Core M3 chip....

As posters have said above, Apple doesn't do CHEAP.

2020 Apple Silicon Macbook 12" Starting at $1299
 

Applefan2015

Cancelled
Feb 22, 2015
349
233
Wait, I pre-paid him for one of those machines, did I get screwed ... ?

Yes you did ?

Phone your bank and get them to refund you as you have been scammed.

How can people do this during a worldwide crisis.

I‘m blocking him on Twitter now.

?????
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
The DTK Mini is the minimum baseline for AS Macs. That means at least 4 performance cores, and 16GB RAM. You don't send out a transition kit to developers to try their software out on, perhaps prompting them to redevelop as necessary, and then ship production AS Macs with half the RAM.

As for the 12" AS MacBook, that may happen, but not this year. And I think that moth the 13" AS MBP and the ultraportable AS Mac (MacBook, or Macbook Air) will be starting at below $1000. Maybe at $899 for the 12" AS MacBook, and $949 for the 13" AS MBP. I don't think that $799 is an acheivable price point. I do think the Air name may disappear, and that there won't be both a MacBook and MacBook Air.
 

lixuelai

macrumors 6502a
Oct 29, 2008
965
337
In 2020, I doubt that. FaceID is now old news, the iphone X is 3 years old at this point. Promotion is Applespeak. Many cheaper phones than iphone already are sporting 120hz displays on OLED. The ipad uses a much cheaper LCD. If it was so cheap to make a high quality trackpad/keyboard, why is Apple's version for the ipad Pro so dang expensive?

Those expecting Apple to give you a much better laptop than 2017 Macbook 12 and then drop the price by $500 (yes it went on sale frequently, but the BASE price for the macbook 12 was $1299!) are dreaming. I doubt Apple was paying Intel $500 per Core M3 chip....

As posters have said above, Apple doesn't do CHEAP.

2020 Apple Silicon Macbook 12" Starting at $1299

The cost estimates of Apple parts is well studied and Markit have detailed bill of materials breakdown of both the MB12 and iPad Pro. For example the cost of a m3 is ~$200.

Anyway bit of a pointless debate since cost of material does not dictate what Apple charges. Can just look back at this when they do release it and see which hypothesis is correct.
 

Mohamed Kamal

macrumors member
Jan 5, 2020
61
35
I think that we can all agree that 799$ Isn’t happening.. but 1299$ is too much.. the air is only 999$.. I don’t think they will go higher than that, and if they did, it won’t be as high as 1299$.. I mean that’s as expensive as the current pro, and I’d much rather get the current pro than a 12” inferior quality screen with butterfly keyboard and 1 port, even at the cost of battery life and a little bit of performance.
 
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Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
If it was so cheap to make a high quality trackpad/keyboard, why is Apple's version for the ipad Pro so dang expensive?
You know they make a display stand that costs $1000 right?

Those expecting Apple to give you a much better laptop than 2017 Macbook 12 and then drop the price by $500 (yes it went on sale frequently, but the BASE price for the macbook 12 was $1299!) are dreaming. I doubt Apple was paying Intel $500 per Core M3 chip....

It really depends what ambition Apple has for the Mac going forward. With Intel CPUs, they were never going to get to a point where they can charge a premium to a certain class of buyer on the basis of performance. Buyers always had the argument: "But I can get an i9 laptop for half that price". That argument is gone with Apple Silicon. As long as Apple can produce some real world beating hardware, they will have a luxury they haven't had for a very long time to differentiate their product line in the way they have with the iPhone. You can get a very cheap iPhone now (SE), but if you want you can pay three times as much for a fancier one (11PM). Its still a phone. You can pay a few hundred for a base iPad, or $900+ for a Pro. Still an iPad. You don't get that with the Mac so much. The only people who really pay for the high end stuff are the ones who have a need for the performance and a big time/money investment in the operating system or ecosystem. Half the people with iPhone 11 Pro Maxes don't need anything like that. Probably way more than half.
The premium iPhones and mores the iPad Pros are ahead of their competition. You can't get close to an iPad Pro from anyone else.
If that becomes the case with the Mac, they will start to think they can afford some cheaper entry level options.
The 12" MacBook was priced at something of a premium because it was so thin and light. The original MacBook Air started at $1800 or so, look at the price of one now. (Wasn't there an 11" that was ~$800?)

Personally, I suspect Apple will milk the premium performance of the first generation of AS Macs, charging similar or a little more for the performance benefits. Once the range is all transitioned though, they are free to consider an entry level machine to get people hooked on the ecosystem.
Their eternal problem is that if they release a cheap MacBook they only make $200 on, it will cost them a fair few sales they would have made $500+ on. Personally I suspect the numbers would work in the favour before taking into account the subscription services or accessories etc but Apple maybe thinks otherwise.
Perhaps they could make a $900 MacBook which you can buy for $700 so long as you sign up for a year of Apple Music/TV/Arcade and buy a pair of AirPods. And a Watch.


As posters have said above, Apple doesn't do CHEAP.

The current iPhone SE begs to differ.
 

dryjoy

macrumors regular
Mar 19, 2009
158
14
Aside from any technical aspects, I can’t see Apple doing this. I think a $799 Mac would overlap too much with the iPad family in the pricing structure.
 

magbarn

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2008
3,016
2,380
You know they make a display stand that costs $1000 right?



It really depends what ambition Apple has for the Mac going forward. With Intel CPUs, they were never going to get to a point where they can charge a premium to a certain class of buyer on the basis of performance. Buyers always had the argument: "But I can get an i9 laptop for half that price". That argument is gone with Apple Silicon. As long as Apple can produce some real world beating hardware, they will have a luxury they haven't had for a very long time to differentiate their product line in the way they have with the iPhone. You can get a very cheap iPhone now (SE), but if you want you can pay three times as much for a fancier one (11PM). Its still a phone. You can pay a few hundred for a base iPad, or $900+ for a Pro. Still an iPad. You don't get that with the Mac so much. The only people who really pay for the high end stuff are the ones who have a need for the performance and a big time/money investment in the operating system or ecosystem. Half the people with iPhone 11 Pro Maxes don't need anything like that. Probably way more than half.
The premium iPhones and mores the iPad Pros are ahead of their competition. You can't get close to an iPad Pro from anyone else.
If that becomes the case with the Mac, they will start to think they can afford some cheaper entry level options.
The 12" MacBook was priced at something of a premium because it was so thin and light. The original MacBook Air started at $1800 or so, look at the price of one now. (Wasn't there an 11" that was ~$800?)

Personally, I suspect Apple will milk the premium performance of the first generation of AS Macs, charging similar or a little more for the performance benefits. Once the range is all transitioned though, they are free to consider an entry level machine to get people hooked on the ecosystem.
Their eternal problem is that if they release a cheap MacBook they only make $200 on, it will cost them a fair few sales they would have made $500+ on. Personally I suspect the numbers would work in the favour before taking into account the subscription services or accessories etc but Apple maybe thinks otherwise.
Perhaps they could make a $900 MacBook which you can buy for $700 so long as you sign up for a year of Apple Music/TV/Arcade and buy a pair of AirPods. And a Watch.




The current iPhone SE begs to differ.
I agree with you that $1299 maybe a bit too much, but $799 is really asking for it

The iPhone SE isn't "Cheap" because many competing Android phones are superior in screen/camera/storage capacity/memory for the same price range. Ex. Pixel 4a
Apple's advantage is in the SoC area.

Apple, so far, has not shown much willingness in the past to price their Macs lower to pursue more market share. We'll see if they change their stance.
 
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johannnn

macrumors 68020
Nov 20, 2009
2,315
2,601
Sweden
This leaker has predicted nothing right :rolleyes: Just make people think that Apple is overpromising and underdelivering:(
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
Apple, so far, has not shown much willingness in the past to price their Macs lower to pursue more market share. We'll see if they change their stance.

Absolutely. So far they have showed zero interest in low cost Macs. Even the Mac Mini came in a couple of hundred above where everyone thought/wanted/hoped it would be. And went upwards from there.

But once upon a time Apple was just a Mac maker, comfortable (if not happy) with a market share that had never much exceeded very low double digits. Now they have experience of market share between 50-95% and I suspect they rather like it. They also now make very good money from their services as well. It seems logical then to capitalise on the brand strength they have for the Mac. There is something to be said for exclusivity, but I would argue that the iPhone and iPad have maintained their premium feel and reputation despite their popularity so why not the Mac? The main barrier is price of entry. They just have to make sure the higher end machines have enough extra about them to tempt people into spending much bigger amounts.
 

dgdosen

macrumors 68030
Dec 13, 2003
2,817
1,463
Seattle
Apple, so far, has not shown much willingness in the past to price their Macs lower to pursue more market share. We'll see if they change their stance.

Uh - doesn't Apple have more than 50% market share for iOS devices in the US and didn't they just do great with an SE2? Historically Macs had a >10% market share, and they've slowly shrunk to around 7%... With Apple Silicon, they'll want to turn that around.

I think they'll also want to have a platform that not only developers will like, but cloud providers as well, because, that's a compute business and Apple would probably like a bite out of that too.
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Uh - doesn't Apple have more than 50% market share for iOS devices in the US and didn't they just do great with an SE2? Historically Macs had a >10% market share, and they've slowly shrunk to around 7%... With Apple Silicon, they'll want to turn that around.

I think they'll also want to have a platform that not only developers will like, but cloud providers as well, because, that's a compute business and Apple would probably like a bite out of that too.

iOS devices only have 50% market share in the NA market. Worldwide it is in the 20-25% range.

Apple is not market share oriented. Theynever have been. They want to build what at one time was called “insanely great” (the way they see it, not necessarily a view I agree with) products with a good profit margin. If that means that they end up with 3%, 7%, or 25% of the market, then so be it. While it is true that the Mac’s market share is only 7% percent, note that the Mac’s market share for computers over $1000 is much, much higher. It comes down to the volumes of$400-$800 are very high, but Apple doesn’t even make any computers in that price range (ever since the last Mini came out, and the price went up). I don’t know if Apple wants to be in that price range. I think they could get down into tge $800 price range if they wanted to, but the wat Apple looks at it, ifyou want something at that price, buy an iPad, vs.a severely compromised laptop.

Everybody moans and complains about the Mac’s low market share, but the product line is good enough to get Apple to almost $2T in market cap.

i di think thelowest end Mac will come in at $899 because of cost savings made possible by the use of the SoCs, and that may push the Mac’s market share into tge double digits. I don’t see Apple lowering prices much below that, though, and I don’t see them being concerned about market share any more than they are now.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
Apple is not market share oriented. Theynever have been.

They are quite fond of profit share though. And the iPhone when it was around 50% of the market was making 90% of the profit. I doubt this is close to being true of the Mac.

They want to build what at one time was called “insanely great” (the way they see it, not necessarily a view I agree with) products with a good profit margin. If that means that they end up with 3%, 7%, or 25% of the market, then so be it. While it is true that the Mac’s market share is only 7% percent, note that the Mac’s market share for computers over $1000 is much, much higher. It comes down to the volumes of$400-$800 are very high, but Apple doesn’t even make any computers in that price range (ever since the last Mini came out, and the price went up).

Apple makes a $329 iPad. Theres really no reason they couldn't go after the PC market. The AppleTV is basically a headless iPad ad the 4K version is under $200. If Apple allowed it, it would probably be perfectly adequate as a desktop PC in any call centre, classroom, admin office or reception desk in the land.

I don’t know if Apple wants to be in that price range. I think they could get down into tge $800 price range if they wanted to, but the wat Apple looks at it, if you want something at that price, buy an iPad, vs.a severely compromised laptop.

Traditionally they haven't wanted to e in that range with the Mac. But now they can make money from services so there is more motivation to consider it. If you aren't in that space, someone else is in it for you, hoovering up your subscribers.

Everybody moans and complains about the Mac’s low market share, but the product line is good enough to get Apple to almost $2T in market cap.

The Mac is not a big part of Apple's overall value these days. One hopes they might seek to address this.
Selling services will only get more important as time goes on.
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
They are quite fond of profit share though. And the iPhone when it was around 50% of the market was making 90% of the profit. I doubt this is close to being true of the Mac.



Apple makes a $329 iPad. Theres really no reason they couldn't go after the PC market. The AppleTV is basically a headless iPad ad the 4K version is under $200. If Apple allowed it, it would probably be perfectly adequate as a desktop PC in any call centre, classroom, admin office or reception desk in the land.



Traditionally they haven't wanted to e in that range with the Mac. But now they can make money from services so there is more motivation to consider it. If you aren't in that space, someone else is in it for you, hoovering up your subscribers.



The Mac is not a big part of Apple's overall value these days. One hopes they might seek to address this.
Selling services will only get more important as time goes on.

Apple knows that it takes profits to finance whatever is coming next, whether it be software or hardware. They need to finance that because they don't use a lot of critical off the shelf stuff, and write and support their own operating systems and software, which is completely different from the worlds of Windows and Android. It brings added costs, but also allows for very deeply integrated hardware and software.

Apple could go after the PC market, if they wanted to. I don't believe they want to. They see the PC market for what it is; a race to the bottom using generic parts, with poor build quality, running a sorry excuse of an operating system (Windows 10, let's see if this month's patch Tuesday will make it 6 month's in a row with over 110 security issues fixed (if anything that Microsoft issues can be called a real "fix")). In addition, Apple knows that it is in a trusted position with users, something that can hardly be said of the Windows or Android world.

The iPad is a different case in that there are litterally no viable Android tablets out there. It can be put forward that the real competitor is a Chromebook, but that isn't a 100% accurate comparison either. What the iPad shows is that even in the absence of competition (again, with the possibility of the Chromebook) Apple will still continue to come out with newer and better products. They really do want to come out with the best products available, and price them properly, while continuing to profit at the level they want.

You make money from services by maximizing the number of subscribers. No matter how you want to look at it, the vast majority of subscribers will come from the iPhone, and the second group will be iPad users. The Mac will be a distant third. No matter how low in price the Mac is, it isn't going to come anywhere near the number of iPhone users. So, the idea is to keep the Mac high in quality, with great features, with excellent build quality, and price it accordingly. You aren't going to see Macs with poor build quality, cheap plastic cases, substandard displays, or loaded with crapware. If Apple were really concerned about maximizing service revenue, they would open their services up to Android, and to a lesser extent Windows. But they are NOT worried about attracting other platforms to their services (see the Windows and Android version of Messages, for example). Many people have said that Apple needs to open up their services to other platforms; maybe Apple wants to use services to get people to buy their hardware.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Regardless if its fake, I would gladly take a 2020 Air with a A14X. 799 seems to low, if an Intel i3 can pull 999 a A14X with almost twice the juice can pull 1299.

not an i3.... no matter how many core's has. an i5 may beat an i7 in terms of performance alone, but there IS a limit... i think

I thought i3 had *hit* that limit, or is it still going??
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
maybe Apple wants to use services to get people to buy their hardware.

Theres no maybe about it. Apple is a hardware company, the services exist to sell hardware. No-one here is suggesting Apple need to reduce build quality in any future Macs. Sooner or later though they are going to reach the point where they can't grow subscribers or users much on iOS. There is room to grow for the Mac user base.
 

Danny82

macrumors member
Jul 1, 2020
50
25
assuming $799 is true, I think we should not think in a way that apple is going to destroy intel market share now.. rather, increasing from their 10% market share to 15% market share is already very good.. because increasing either iphone, ipad or mac shares will somehow be correlated.. they will increase sales in both hardware and services and also provide them a more powerful stand when negotiating with supplier further..
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
assuming $799 is true, I think we should not think in a way that apple is going to destroy intel market share now.. rather, increasing from their 10% market share to 15% market share is already very good.. because increasing either iphone, ipad or mac shares will somehow be correlated.. they will increase sales in both hardware and services and also provide them a more powerful stand when negotiating with supplier further..

Apple itself isn’t going to do much to Intel’s marketshare in the desktop space, that’s for other OEMs to do with a mix of more-viable (and cheaper) AMD and Arm CPUs. And of course Windows on Arm being better.
 

Danny82

macrumors member
Jul 1, 2020
50
25
Apple itself isn’t going to do much to Intel’s marketshare in the desktop space, that’s for other OEMs to do with a mix of more-viable (and cheaper) AMD and Arm CPUs. And of course Windows on Arm being better.
I agree.. will be interesting to see more AMD laptop/desktop next year.. none will be able to majorly affect intel but at the very least let intel know they better up their game..

Whats most interesting will be if Microsoft will be pressured to put more resources into arm windows.. i will be very happy if they do.. so the problem of solving how to port legacy software over to arm will fall onto Microsoft hands.. and in the next 3 years.. apple will virtualize arm windows with all legacy software.. :D

Just my dream I know..
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
I agree.. will be interesting to see more AMD laptop/desktop next year.. none will be able to majorly affect intel but at the very least let intel know they better up their game..

This has already been the case for some time and it hasn't happened yet. Intel's reputation and marketing budget have succeeded in keeping AMDs gains at bay when they should be making serious inroads due to their superiority in performance, cooling and price. It doesn't happen instantly because everyone always assumes its a blip and Intel will catch them up pretty soon but if AMD gets ahead of the top end i9 and stays there another year or two people might finally start coming around.

Whats most interesting will be if Microsoft will be pressured to put more resources into arm windows.. i will be very happy if they do.. so the problem of solving how to port legacy software over to arm will fall onto Microsoft hands.. and in the next 3 years.. apple will virtualize arm windows with all legacy software.. :D

Just my dream I know..

I think more than a few are dreaming and even expecting this. The story goes like this:

Apple releases AS Macs and their performance and battery life is stunning compared to x86;
Apple sales spike as people are happy to pay extra for machines that are now superior in almost every respect;
Intel PC makers assume its all down to the ARM ISA and begin clamouring for ARM based CPUs of their own;
Microsoft smells which way the wind is blowing and beefs up Windows on ARM. The make another brief play to be the market leader in Windows ARM hardware too but quickly bow to pressure to license it to everyone and their uncle;
Windows returns to the Mac via virtualisation, Apple holds out on writing good drivers for their GPUs for Windows to force gamers to go Mac;
More than one PC player goes bust banking on Samsung or Qualcomm to succeed in doing so and being very wrong;
Ultimately Apple's market share goes up by a factor of four or more because no-one can catch their SoC performance.
Warren Buffet now world's richest man as Apple market cap screams north of $3T.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
Bill Gates spontaneously combusts, Microsoft claim he has merely ascended to a new plane of existence;
Apple buys Samsung as a tax dodge in Korea, poorly named flagship Galaxy S911 with Trump Technology has a monochrome screen with green backlight and a half megapixel camera. Ships with a block of cheese in place of its battery and only runs a version of Minesweeper that has been modified so you can never win;
iPhone 27 Pro IM provides user with an Iron Man suit with supersonic flight capability and Jarvis instead of Siri;
New AR feature includes one where you can overlay new clothes onto people. Other iPhone users can choose how you see them but everyone else can be made to look like a reject from Fortnite;
US police forces get high tech gear that can automatically identify criminals and criminal behaviour, automatically informs the cops before they apprehend and murder innocent black people;
Cops can no longer tell the difference between real armed criminals and people playing Call of Duty AR due to getting the settings wrong on their AR devices. Hundreds die;
Apple builds army of robot police officers;
FaceBook finally starts filtering out misinformation after a clone of Hitler wins a Republican primary;
Popular Netflix show is elected president instead;
I'm getting carried away now;
Spiralling subscriptions for every facet of human life become too complex for consumers, governments, financial AIs and debt collection agencies to keep track of. The repossession wars begin in earnest as everyone owes everyone else money, goods and services;
Apple puts a stop to the conflict by simply taking ownership of everything and everyone;
Apple's EULA paperwork now takes an entire human lifetime to read and is out of date before you get 1% of the way through it. Humanity starves to death trying to download the newest version of the Uber Eats app;
The cold, empty husk of planet Earth finally gives up when the last GM rainforest gets stuck trying to update its firmware;
 
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Danny82

macrumors member
Jul 1, 2020
50
25
I think more than a few are dreaming and even expecting this. The story goes like this:

Apple releases AS Macs and their performance and battery life is stunning compared to x86;
Apple sales spike as people are happy to pay extra for machines that are now superior in almost every respect;
Intel PC makers assume its all down to the ARM ISA and begin clamouring for ARM based CPUs of their own;
Microsoft smells which way the wind is blowing and beefs up Windows on ARM. The make another brief play to be the market leader in Windows ARM hardware too but quickly bow to pressure to license it to everyone and their uncle;
Windows returns to the Mac via virtualisation, Apple holds out on writing good drivers for their GPUs for Windows to force gamers to go Mac;
More than one PC player goes bust banking on Samsung or Qualcomm to succeed in doing so and being very wrong;
Ultimately Apple's market share goes up by a factor of four or more because no-one can catch their SoC performance.
Warren Buffet now world's richest man as Apple market cap screams north of $3T.

Lol..!!! Exactly.. ? I think u will be a millionaire if u write a novel or make a movie.. ? well done.. enjoyed reading it ?
 
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