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Rojo

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2006
1,328
241
Barcelona
It's refreshing to see two competing developers get along so nicely! :D

It looks like both apps will have their different uses for different needs. Josh's app sounds like it may have a few more features, but you're also paying more for them too. Depending on how much you want to use such an app (just to play around with, or get more serious with) may decide on which one you buy. To be honest, I haven't decided which one I want yet. I'm leaning towards getting the one out now, but may wait for Ollie's and some reviews to make a final decision. Or heck, I may just get both! ;)
 

TimothyB

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 20, 2008
795
91
Bay Area
Quick tip I noticed with Flipbook, might be a side effect or on purpose.

If you start drawing a line, or erasing, and you already know you need to undo it, before lifting the drawing finger, tap the screen with another finger, the recent changes disappear. Though, the moment you let go it will bring up the tool box. Still. It might be quicker than the fast menu for undo, which often I accidentally draw a dot getting to.

Though in the pop up menu with undo, after selecting undo, tapping again real quick will do two undos, and so on.

I really like the zoom on this. I'll draw thick strokes, then use the eraser, while zoomed in, to thin and shape the stroke. And the edges of your lines are smoothed.
 

TimothyB

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 20, 2008
795
91
Bay Area
I hope they get the other Flipbook app out soon, sometimes it can take over a week for approval.


Here's my first try with the first Flipbook app:
http://www.flipbook.tv/view/7F4A2075-37EC-481A-B219-99F7FF4A2D2A/

I got in over my head. I first did 12 rough frames, then planned to draw on a new layer to refine it. Which you see for the first half of the animation, then the rough drawing for the last bit.

Sadly, I added too much detail for what was suppose to be a quick rough animation. My left hand would go numb at times holding the iPhone. Thus, for time reasons, I stopped. But not before I duplicated the first frame many times to add an eye blink and waving hair.

I also used the export image feature to grab the drawings and use them in photoshop to reverse the animation for a loop with no rough drawings: http://other.toonguru.com/hugo/Rita_iPhone3.gif

That's one feature I would like. Moving frames so I can reverse it and so on. Also note, the app has a 4 layer limit. You can change the order, but I think it changes that layer's order for all frames.

To color, I kept the black lines on the top layer. Then I colored on a second layer below it, making it real quick without risk of messing up the lines. And my background a 4th layer, which using copy and paste, I was able to put it in all frames.

It only crashed once when I first started coloring the toon character. I often just quit the app to make sure my last few minutes of work is not lost. Sometimes the pause when you advance a frame for the onion skinning can scare you.

I'm please with the $9.99 price and can't wait for future updates.
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
Timothy, I am amazed! What might help you is a Pogo Stylus. I've been talking with them about a finer-tipped version that's better for drawing, and they're aware of the need. There are also some stands for the iPhone so that you don't have to hold it.

I'm not sure if there's a way for you to get me a crash log (take a look in ~/Library/MobileDevice or ~/Library/Logs and if you see something, please email it to support at flipbook.tv). What I suspect was happening is that you were running low on memory (hence the sluggish frame changes). FlipBook tries hard to throw things out of memory when the device tells it that it's running low, but if we can't throw enough out, the system actually kills the app. If you notice things running slowly, try restarting your device to clear out cruft. Also, just going back to the home screen will save everything in your document--no need to completely quit.

You are limited to 4 layers, but that's only to try to keep a handle on memory usage (it's actually just a pre-defined constant in the app that can be changed at any time) and to keep performance reasonable. They are more like tracks in that every frame will have the same set of layers; it'd be mentally confusing otherwise (we tried it initially).

And I hear you about rearranging frames. It's certainly a logical next step.

Best,
Josh
 

Surely

Guest
Oct 27, 2007
15,042
17
Los Angeles, CA
I'm guessing that if you are someone saying this software isn't worth $10, you have never tried it, and you have no idea why someone would want onion skinning or layered drawing. And if you have tried it and feel that way, please use the feedback forum at flipbook.tv to describe why.

Let me preface my comment by stating that I don't particularly have any problem with your price-point, and I believe that developers should most definitely be compensated for their hard work. Some of the Apps that have been released are simply amazing, and are making my iPhone experience even better than it was prior to the 2.0 release.

That being said, I wanted to question you on one part of your above comment. You state that people who are questioning the $10 price-point haven't tried Flipbook yet, so they could not appreciate how complex and amazing it is. My question is, how can we try it before we purchase it? Is there a trial version, or a lite version that you have released? If we buy it to try it, and we don't like it, do we get a refund (Um, no)?

I just don't feel that this was a fair argument against the people who are pointing out that they feel it is a high price-point. To make that argument, a trial version should be made available.

Besides that, keep up the great work! :)
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
I've thought about a trial version, but I haven't figured out what the best way to limit it would be. The obvious bit is limiting the number of movies, frames, and layers. There are more subtle questions to think about, though, especially with regards to our website. We're already planning on improving its functionality (including what you can get to via the app), and if a trial version took full advantage of it and was free, our server fees could quickly go through the roof. Thanks for the feedback, though. Keep it coming!
 

TimothyB

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 20, 2008
795
91
Bay Area
Thanks. Yeah, some kind of stylus would be great for the iPhone. This better not get me thinking about that Wacom Cintiq again.

Can a stylus work with this type of touch screen anyway? Or an option could be done that offsets the drawing just enough to be seen above your finger. Some issues would occur around the edges of the screen I guess.

Meanwhile maybe to compensate for clumsy finger drawing is a faster undo. Right now, it takes a little while to get that quick menu, and sometimes I create a dot trying to get to it. Maybe shaking the phone like some apps do would work as an undo. Heck, maybe an up and down shake undos, left and right redos, or changes between erase and and brush.

I'm on a PC, Vista, and I looked everywhere and couldn't find those crash logs. I know iTunes must be sending them because it asked the very first time and showed a preview, but don't know how to get that back. I did have Flipbook app on launch cause an instant restart. Though, I did run ReQall just before that happened and I feel some how that app was the cause.

One thing I found difficult was quickly going back and forth between frames like that animator thing to see how it's working out. The arrows at the bottom are good for that, but with a few flaws. Sometimes sluggish with onion skin on and it counts as your undos. So several flips you suddenly have no undos for what you were possibly checking. Maybe a feature where if you hold on one of those arrows, instead of tap, it will auto flip between the last frame and your current until you let go, plus auto turns off onion skin for that preview, and vice verse with the other arrow.

I understand about the layers. I wonder, is there any way to merge layers. So if you you finished one thing, and decide you don't need them separate, you could merge them down and gain the use of the free layer. I tried copy and paste, but that replaces the entire layer, not pasting on top of.

One last thing comes to mind with that. Can we duplicate entire flipbooks? There's sort of a work around now, and merges the animation at the same. Using the export feature as photos to your camera roll, you then create a new flipbook and reload each still from your photos.

Again, these are not demands, or even suggestions that I expect to be done, but just thoughts and I'm glad enough you are listening.

Timothy, I am amazed! What might help you is a Pogo Stylus. I've been talking with them about a finer-tipped version that's better for drawing, and they're aware of the need. There are also some stands for the iPhone so that you don't have to hold it.

I'm not sure if there's a way for you to get me a crash log (take a look in ~/Library/MobileDevice or ~/Library/Logs and if you see something, please email it to support at flipbook.tv). What I suspect was happening is that you were running low on memory (hence the sluggish frame changes). FlipBook tries hard to throw things out of memory when the device tells it that it's running low, but if we can't throw enough out, the system actually kills the app. If you notice things running slowly, try restarting your device to clear out cruft. Also, just going back to the home screen will save everything in your document--no need to completely quit.

You are limited to 4 layers, but that's only to try to keep a handle on memory usage (it's actually just a pre-defined constant in the app that can be changed at any time) and to keep performance reasonable. They are more like tracks in that every frame will have the same set of layers; it'd be mentally confusing otherwise (we tried it initially).

And I hear you about rearranging frames. It's certainly a logical next step.

Best,
Josh
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
The current Pogo Stylus actually works remarkably well, it just takes some getting used to the fat tip.

I don't want to say much about when you sometimes get a dot when bringing up the quick command bar (long story short, it's related to the settings we ended up picking after some tweaking to deal with how the iPhone sends touch events to an application), but try not to roll your finger (that'll mess things up and give you a dot). The bar is set to come up after just under .5 seconds.

Sorry to hear that you can't get the crash report. I suspect I've found a bug in the autosave and will be fixing that in a 1.0.1 release, so that even if you do crash, you'll have your work. Out of curiosity, would it bug you if FlipBook were to sometimes pop up an alert that said "FlipBook has detected that it's not running as well as it should be. Try restarting your device."

With the page flipping, what's happening is that nearly everything in the app is undoable (not just brush strokes), including changing frames. To keep our memory usage down, though, the undo stack has to be relatively short. So yes, if you flip a lot, you might end up clearing the undo brush command.

There is definitely a performance hit with onion skinning. Unfortunately the iPhone isn't robust as a desktop with a full GPU, and compositing (which we do a lot of) isn't cheap. However, we are looking at some optimizations for a future release, and this will only get better.

Merging layers is an interesting one, and we've been thinking about it. Honestly the hardest part is the user experience, since a layer is really like a track in that it spans the whole movie. But yes, this certainly would be a logical thing to have in the future :)

For those of you still reading, we've figured out a great way to provide a lite edition and will be submitting it to the AppStore as a free download this week. That'll give you a chance to try before you buy, in case $9.99 is hard to find in your budget.
 

Rojo

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2006
1,328
241
Barcelona
For those of you still reading, we've figured out a great way to provide a lite edition and will be submitting it to the AppStore as a free download this week. That'll give you a chance to try before you buy, in case $9.99 is hard to find in your budget.

That's great news!
Thanks for doing this. :)
 

spyker3292

macrumors 65816
Jul 7, 2005
1,026
13
Michigan
Great app, I've don't about 10 animations already. It would be great if you could find a way to fox the sluggish frames but currently it's still amazing. I really love the tool quick select. It's also great to see all your replies here! :)
 

spyker3292

macrumors 65816
Jul 7, 2005
1,026
13
Michigan
Oh! Just another feature I would love. Maybe an export as .mov or .gif to comp instead of exporting a bunch of pictures to the library. But I love the flipbook.tv upload ;). And maybe a checkmatk next to each of the export features after I export stuff. So I know what's on flipbook.tv ;)
 

rittchard

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2007
351
46
Ironically it was seeing the other flipbook app that brought me to this thread, and after watching the info on the site I decided to go ahead and purchase this one (apologies to the other guy!). Some of the drawing and layer features look amazing. I don't expect I'll be very good at making content, but like Beatmaker it's just such an incredible tool I feel the need to experiment with it.

One thing I'd like to see on the flipbook.tv site is a "Top Flipbooks" or maybe a rating system, something like Youtube. Presently there is such a huge mix, and some of them are clearly just experimental or ummm, not the best quality so to speak. I'd like to be able to see some of the best stuff immediately, and also think it would help sell the App if the higher quality ones were featured more prominently.


P.S. Side note, equally impressive to the software, I checked out Josh Anon's photography website. Wow, there's some simply amazing images in there. Highly recommended if you like nature photography.
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
Spyker, thanks for the feedback. For right now, if you know FlipBook running slowly, restart your phone. FlipBook uses all the memory it can get, and if other apps have left cruft behind, it slows down (that's why you sometimes don't get true 12fps playback). We're working on another form of export for 1.1 that'll make a lot of people happy.

rittchard, thanks for the nice words! If it makes you feel any better, the reason I'm a photographer is that I don't draw very well :) As for flipbook.tv, we are improving it literally each day. For instance, as of last night, you can click a user's name to see all the movies a user's made. The nice thing about the website is that there's no submission/approval process. A ratings and comments system is high on our priority list.
 

spyker3292

macrumors 65816
Jul 7, 2005
1,026
13
Michigan
The website seems to be growing very quickly! And I'm looking forward to 1.1 ;) just with this review process that could be a while :D
 

Rojo

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2006
1,328
241
Barcelona
OK!
So I was going to wait around and test out the free lite version of Flipbook, but I decided to just go ahead and buy the full version anyway, and I'm having lots of fun with it!

Most of my suggestions have already been suggested by TimothyB, so I'll comment on his:

Some quick thoughts for future additions to the first Flipbook app:

1: Fill Bucket tool. I noticed double tapping the brush icon fills, but only the entire screen. Maybe while drawing, double tap will fill?

I definitely think a regular "fill bucket" tool is necessary, and is more useful than something that fills the whole page. I feel like filling the whole page is something that you would only ever do in the beginning -- and there's already a way to set that on the main page, when you edit a flipbook's name. If someone REALLY needed to fill the screen after that, they could always just set the brush to its largest size and draw over the screen pretty quickly. (What would be REALLY cool is if you fill the whole screen with one color, then draw on top of it, and then you can go back and "reset" that initial full screen color while keeping all the changes you've made -- and that color could maybe change globally over all your frames).

2: Option to hide layers like in photoshop. But, since you can rearrange the layers, a work around is to drag one you don't need to the bottom under other layers.

Layers are still super-tricky for me. I'm finding it requires a LOT of forethought to create certain animations -- because you have to think about what's going to be a fixed background layer first, and then figure out how many frames will have that bg layer and create them all first, and THEN play with the other layers on top of it. It gets complicated when you realize you might need to add another frame, and then suddenly you need to go back and copy that bg layer again. It seems like the only way to do that is to go to your layers, click on edit, move that layer to the top temporarily, copy it, then move it to the back again, and THEN you can paste it on another frame. If there was a faster way to copy a single layer, without having to move it to the front each time, that would be wonderful.

Unless I'm mistaken, and I'm just doing something wrong, I've noticed that whenever you have any color OTHER than white as your background, that color becomes part of the layer -- so if you copy and paste a single layer in a new frame, it will completely cover up anything else in that frame with the bg color? Basically, here's what happened when I was playing around: I created a new flipbook with a white background, and drew a fixed bg layer of a house in black to be in each frame. I then drew a red stick figure on another layer, which I copied and pasted in each frame and moved around -- and the house could be seen in the background each time. However, I then did the same exact thing, but this time with a black background, and drawing the house in white. When I tried to copy the red stick figure layer into a new frame, it would completely cover the bg layer of the white house to where you couldn't see it at all. Is there a way to make new layers that become ONLY what you actually draw, and NOT the background color too? That would be quite helpful in most cases...

Also, I noticed that if you delete a layer, it gets deleted in ALL the frames? Is there any way to delete a layer in just a single frame, but keep it in others?

EDIT: I noticed when you MOVE layers it changes in ALL the frames too. That kinds sucks. What if you want layer 1 to be on top of layer 2 in one frame, but on the bottom of layer 2 in the next frame? Looks like you can't do that?? Yeah -- if there was a way to keep layer changes to JUST the frame you're currently working in, that would be amazing!

3: Transparent layers controls. Could be useful for certain effects like clouds, water, smoke, glows.

DEFINITELY!

4: Would be nice if you can reorder the frames. Say you change the entire scene for a while, but then want to go back to a scene from before. You could try to copy and paste each layer, great feature by the way, but it would be nice when duplicating an earlier frame to place it where you need it.

This would be my number one request. Can't tell you how many time I wanted to do this. Perhaps when you're in "Pages" mode, there could be a way to press and hold on a page, and then drag it to someplace else?

5. Rotate and scale. Already cool that you got a move layers feature. But an option to rotate and scale a shape would also be really cool for animation. Tough though, with two fingers already dedicated to zoom.

God yes!! But yeah, I can see how it might be difficult.

6. Maybe a burn and dodge tool, to add extra shading when you need it. Possibly with slider for hardness, size, strength, and even if the stroke will auto fade strength to simulate pressure. Seeing how this only done to painted areas, it won't create partial transparent areas.

I don't even know what burning and dodging is, so too advanced for me to want - LOL! :D

7. Layer transparency lock. Say you created a ball, now you want to shade one side, but you have to follow the edges or you go outside the ball. It would be nice to lock the layer transparency so all new drawing only appears in areas that have been painted, like using a mask.

Sounds pretty advanced -- but if it could be done, would be very cool.

8. For some reason, I prefer CMYK sliders. Just seems more natural to get the color I want, and the black slider is nice to quickly adjust the shade of a color. Any change of that showing up? Or maybe brightness, hue, and saturation controls along with the RGB sliders.

Too many color sliders could get confusing, though.

One other feature that would be quite nice, that doesn't directly have anything to do with editing your own animations, but would be still be very useful: Some kind of built-in-the-app "viewer" for all of the flipbook.tv animations. Sure, we could just go to flipbook.tv in Safari -- but it's a pain to have to quit the Flipbook app, load Safari, find the page, and then do the required zooming around to navigate the site. It would be sooooo much cooler if there was a direct way to easily navigate and view the animations within the Flipbook app itself. But maybe not until a tags or ratings system is incorporated into the site. That way we could search/navigate by rating, tag, name, or whatever. I find it's REALLY helpful to be able to look at what others have done, in order to see what is possible.

And finally, a not-that-important-but-would-still-be-cool request that I mentioned in another thread: The ability to add music or sounds. I realize this might be too impossible, or would tax the memory to its limit. But even if it was something you could only do once you lock an animation as "finished," it would still be a nice addition. Just throwing it out there...

Looking forward to the other export options that are coming too. Some of my animations I don't want to to upload to flipbook.tv, but I still want to get off my iPhone.
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
Glad to hear you ended up purchasing FlipBook and are enjoying it! With color, the way it works (or at least is supposed to work ;) ) is that you can change the background color at any time, and it's not part of any layer. If you copy the background layer, you don't pick up the background color. You just pick up whatever you drew over it.

With layers, it does take some thought, but it's nice to have them sometimes (and you don't have to use them if you don't want to). What might help you is the duplicate frame button (under the Frame control), or in the app prefs, you can set FlipBook to copy the previous frame when adding a new one, instead of giving you a blank frame.

Copy will copy the active layer, and paste will paste it into the active layer--no need to reorder. If that isn't working properly, could you use the contact form on flipbook.tv to file a bug? I just tried what you described below, and everything worked as designed (it didn't copy the bkg color, and I could easily copy from one layer to another on a different frame).

Layers are really more like tracks. After a lot of thought, we decided it would be too confusing if each frame could have different layers.

Your other requests are reasonable, and I think you'll like what we have planned. Just FYI, I don't believe there is a way to access your iTunes library from a 3rd party app, but we are thinking about sound.

Lastly, did you know that when you upload a movie to flipbook.tv, you can mark it private? That means that no one else can see it, but you can login to the site and download it to your computer.
 

TimothyB

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 20, 2008
795
91
Bay Area
Just wanted to mention a confusing thing with interface as you upload to Flipbook.tv

It's how you choose between portrait or landscape mode before uploading.

It's not clear if the highlighted button is the one selected, or if it's the dark button that is the the selection. I tried clicking one button, like portrait, twice, to be sure it stays on it, but it just alternates so you still can't figure out for sure with is the one selected.

With my first upload I got it wrong, but was glad you can change it online.

When I get home I'll have to read these recent posts.
 

Rojo

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2006
1,328
241
Barcelona
Josh - thanks for the response! Clearly I'm doing something wrong regarding layers, and just need to play around with them some more, I guess.

Glad to hear some of the suggestions might be coming a reality! Looking forward to future updates. And thanks for the uploading as "private" tip -- I'll do that for now!
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
Just wanted to mention a confusing thing with interface as you upload to Flipbook.tv

It's how you choose between portrait or landscape mode before uploading.

It's not clear if the highlighted button is the one selected, or if it's the dark button that is the the selection.

I know. The darker one is the selected control. That's actually a standard, Apple-provided control. It works pretty well if you have 3-4+ items, but it is a bit confusing for just 2. Something will change to make that less confusing :)
 

Rojo

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2006
1,328
241
Barcelona
I know. The darker one is the selected control. That's actually a standard, Apple-provided control. It works pretty well if you have 3-4+ items, but it is a bit confusing for just 2. Something will change to make that less confusing :)

Thanks, because I had the same problem. I kept selecting the wrong one, and had to always go back.
 

Rojo

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2006
1,328
241
Barcelona
Just downloaded an update from the phone's App Store! But it didn't say what's new -- and I can't tell if there IS anything new. And now when I look up Flipbook on iTunes, it says version 1.0.0?? So was there an actual update or not? :confused: :confused:
 

joshanon

macrumors newbie
Jul 30, 2008
28
0
Just downloaded an update from the phone's App Store! But it didn't say what's new -- and I can't tell if there IS anything new. And now when I look up Flipbook on iTunes, it says version 1.0.0?? So was there an actual update or not? :confused: :confused:

I don't think Apple's updated the info on iTunes yet. Take a look at the settings pane--we put the version number at the bottom. Here are the release notes that will be up soon:

This version improves playback performance and fixes an autosave bug, as well as other minor bugs.

There's also a new note in the app description--a little present for the next time you upload a movie to flipbook.tv:

For a limited time only, upload a movie to flipbook.tv, and you'll receive a coupon for 25% off a Pogo Stylus!

-Josh
 
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