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Linux running natively on M1?

jinnyman said:
buy cheap pc laptop with freedom and install linux on it.
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More seriously...I use Linux (it's currently my daily driver OS), and I have to agree--it makes more sense (to me and for me) to run it on a generic PC. At one time, I thought Linux was attractive for Macs in potentially buying some time after official OS support ends. But that argument was easier with Intel. Now, if considering (say) a new MacBook Air, I'd assume that it would never be anything but a MacOS machine--and when support ends, that would be that. (At least, for current, supported OS. I have a history of running machines off line that are long out of date--I have an occaisionally used 1990s PowerMac sitting near me as I write this.)
 
jinnyman said:
making transition to AS ARM from x64 is difficult enough. Why bother to run linux on ARM AS? If linux is really needed, I'd rather buy cheap pc laptop with freedom and install linux on it.
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leman said:
If Linux is really needed why not do like every normal person and just run it in a VM? MacOS even comes with a system framework for running Linux.
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The important work being done is the reverse engineering of the Apple silicon Mac hardware. I don’t think many will ever use the native Linux port but the trove of information about Apple’s hardware is priceless. And the Linux port may become a last resort at some future date when Apple stops supporting the current hardware and someone wants to continue using it.
 
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I agree that there's fun in doing so, and I wholeheartedly support whoever is working on providing support for Linux on AS Mac. My comment is not to discredit or disagree. However, as an end user, we are already minor in room of giants where most people uses windows and linux on x64. Mac users are enough number to find resources and advices on technical issues of AS Transition. Actually we are plenty enough. However, if you need to use linux on AS and want to find resources and advices? good luck. It's too much of hassles for those that wanting to use linux as running and finding libraries, drivers etc are going to be very difficult.
 
I have been using virtualisation for a long time (though I also ran Linux native on several macs, and that worked actually pretty well, including in the PPC era...). However, it is better to keep, have, and develop more options.
As an example, I mainly use Virtualbox with my Intel macs, and this one is NOT going to be available with Apple Silicon. VMWare seems to take forever to develop too. So that leaves only Parallels and UTM. So some options will not come to AS for some time or ever, thus it is good that the option to run native stays.
 
Linux VM has had limitations/issues with hardware passthrough so isn't a replacement for bare metal Linux. I know WIFI adapters that support monitor mode and packet injection didn't work properly under Linux VM and required bare metal Linux.
 
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jinnyman said:
making transition to AS ARM from x64 is difficult enough. Why bother to run linux on ARM AS? If linux is really needed, I'd rather buy cheap pc laptop with freedom and install linux on it.
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The cheap laptop would neither feature top build quality, nor performance and most importantly not the battery life of a M1 Mac.

I find the idea of running a KDE based OS on something as power efficient as ASi very very luring. Certainly preferable over any Windows machine
 
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Romain_H said:
The cheap laptop would neither feature top build quality, nor performance and most importantly not the battery life of a M1 Mac.

I find the idea of running a KDE based OS on something as power efficient as ASi very very luring. Certainly preferable over any Windows machine
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I don't disagree. But only after it's mature enough. I guess another 2~3 years and we'd be running linux no problem.
 
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Romain_H said:
The cheap laptop would neither feature top build quality, nor performance and most importantly not the battery life of a M1 Mac.

I find the idea of running a KDE based OS on something as power efficient as ASi very very luring. Certainly preferable over any Windows machine
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Don't hold your breath ;)

It's relatively easy to get Linux run stable on most modern platforms (or virtualisation).
It's considerably harder to get it run smoothly for desktop use.
It's much harder to do it energy-efficiently.

A lot of the power efficiency of modern desktop or handheld/mobile platforms comes from the integration between hardware and software and the optimisation of the latter for its hardware, i.e. performance optimisations, hardware acceleration and hardware offloading. And that applies even to very basic things, such as drawing and moving windows on the screen or decoding video codecs when watching YouTube videos. GPU drivers alone may take years to develop to become "good", let alone rival Apple on efficiency, if they ever come to fruition. Not to forget that the closed nature of GPU IP requires difficult reverse engineering in the first place.

I recently installed the most recent release of Ubuntu on a 2011 Mac mini. A most recent distro on a decade-old hardware that's still beefy enough for desktop use (ideal prerequisites, basically?) - but even that had some video tearing issues on YouTube in Firefox.
 
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I am aware, and I agree. I am not sure if we ever see a production ready version of Linux on ASi, even though the Asahi Linux devs apparently are crazy skilled.
The feasibilty, though, is a different question. Plus I‘d still miss CUDA
 
During the PPC era we had YellowDog Linux was for Macs! We need something like that besides they actually sold it! So Linux developers you could make money making a version to run on Arm!
 
Romain_H said:
The feasibilty, though, is a different question. Plus I‘d still miss CUDA
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The biggest limitation of Apple virtualization support as I understand is proper PCI device paththrough. If Apple would finally implement it you could use virtualized Linux/Windows with an Nvidia eGPU and native drivers. This would definitely increase the usability of these Macs without threatening the Apple ecosystem and I hope Apple is working on this feature.

satcomer said:
So Linux developers you could make money making a version to run on Arm!
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Oh please… given the skill level these people had there are many more lucrative careers they could pursue than selling half-baked Linux to a handful of oddballs (no insult intended) who insist on running native Linux on an AS Mac.
 
jinnyman said:
making transition to AS ARM from x64 is difficult enough. Why bother to run linux on ARM AS? If linux is really needed, I'd rather buy cheap pc laptop with freedom and install linux on it.
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Not for nothing, but people said the same thing regarding sparc, sparc64, alpha, OS390, m68k, and a few others… yet Linux was ported to all of those, as it became a better and viable alternative to the proprietary operating systems that came with them.

Wash/rinse/repeat here.

BL.
 
icymountain said:
As an example, I mainly use Virtualbox with my Intel macs, and this one is NOT going to be available with Apple Silicon. VMWare seems to take forever to develop too. So that leaves only Parallels and UTM. So some options will not come to AS for some time or ever, thus it is good that the option to run native stays.
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While VMWare is a technical preview, if you aren’t hitting the edges where features are missing, it’s very stable. I’ve been running home (non-production) servers on an M1 Mac Mini without problems.

leman said:
Oh please… given the skill level these people had there are many more lucrative careers they could pursue than selling half-baked Linux to a handful of oddballs (no insult intended) who insist on running native Linux on an AS Mac.
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Agreed. The skill required for this level of reverse engineering is considerably more valuable than the thing they are producing with it.
 
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Krevnik said:
While VMWare is a technical preview, if you aren’t hitting the edges where features are missing, it’s very stable. I’ve been running home (non-production) servers on an M1 Mac Mini without problems.
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Not to mention that macOS comes with high-level virtualization APIs for launching Linux instances. So if your main use case is lightweight TTY-only Linux services one doesn’t even need dimples third party software. I think I’ve already seen a bunch of FOSS wrappers around Apples Virtualization framework.
 
leman said:
given the skill level these people had there are many more lucrative careers they could pursue than selling half-baked Linux to a handful of oddballs (no insult intended) who insist on running native Linux on an AS Mac
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Porting Linux to exotic hardware is Hector's hobby, not his job. I am sure he exploits being famous to get a better check as a security consultant.
marcan.st

About

marcan.st
 
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mi7chy said:
Linux VM has had limitations/issues with hardware passthrough so isn't a replacement for bare metal Linux. I know WIFI adapters that support monitor mode and packet injection didn't work properly under Linux VM and required bare metal Linux.
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This one of the reasons I’m interested in it - if I can use one machine for everything including talking to eGPUs that would be nice. I suppose Apple could allow PCIe/thunderbolt pass through on their VMs but they don’t. (yet)
 
Xiao_Xi said:
Porting Linux to exotic hardware is Hector's hobby, not his job. I am sure he exploits being famous to get a better check as a security consultant.
marcan.st

About

marcan.st
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It’s both. He runs a patreon so that he can work on the AS port and his stated goal is to be as full time as possible.

In fact he just put out a thread about how this RE project is different for him:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1485253988115415045
 
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leman said:
Not to mention that macOS comes with high-level virtualization APIs for launching Linux instances. So if your main use case is lightweight TTY-only Linux services one doesn’t even need dimples third party software. I think I’ve already seen a bunch of FOSS wrappers around Apples Virtualization framework.
Click to expand...

Depends on how much you want to get down to that level versus having something more complete like UTM. Having a good framework on the platform makes it easier for competition to make inroads in this space which is good.

That said, the statement was more to point out that while VMWare moves slowly in this space and doesn't have a final release here, it's not as if the work is unusable right now depending on your needs. Quite the opposite. And now that they do have a free SKU on the Mac, I'm not in a huge rush to abandon it at the moment.
 
Those results are weird. For example, I was very baffled by terrible compile times under macOS. Building Node.js 17.3 on my M1 max using 4 threads (should be a reasonable proxy for the M1 with four performance cores) and clang I get 840 seconds. I expect the M1 with 8 threads (4P+4E) should be at least 20% faster. Given that GCC does not officially support Apple Silicon and it's developers don't care about macOS, I question the choice of this specific benchmark.
 
Out of curiosity, if the Asahi developers eventually succeed in creating drivers for hardware accelerators in Mx SoCs, how would they be programmed? Vulkan? SYCL?
 
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