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VJNeumann

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 26, 2017
46
73
I'm seeing a lot of talk about video editing and Threadrippers, but as a Logic user I'm just trying to figure out what the configuration sweet spot is on the 7,1.

It seems to be the case, going off the emerging benchmarks, that the base Mac Pro will provide no meaningful gains over a low-mid range iMac Pro. Throw in the fact that it costs more even without a display, and that the XDR offers no upside to a Logic User (other than being 32 inches), and the standard configuration becomes a tough sell for a Logic-oriented user.

But then as you start to dial up the RAM and multithreading, it will eventually close the gap and then race past an iMP. Clearly a maxed out 7,1 would be able to handle even the biggest practical Logic file* without breaking a sweat.

Of course, I think one of the major differences between building a machine for Logic versus, say, 3D is you have a computing 'breakpoint' once you achieve real-time playback at your desired latency. If you're 3D rendering, there's always a case to be made for more horsepower, but this is not the case with audio - there's no advantage to faster-than-real-time audio playback, and bounce times simply don't matter if we're assuming your file is causing no buffering issues on playback.

On the flip-side, being able to add in your own RAM with no realistic ceiling or the need to buy from Apple (looking at you, iMac Pro) is a major draw.

So the price/performance quantum for the 7,1 at the low end is pretty uncompelling (near as I can tell at this early stage, though I may be wrong!), and at the high end it probably exceeds any realistic workload. I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on the mid-range sweet spot: when does this computer become the best practical Logic Pro machine? Or does it simply never catch up to the iMP in any realistic workload environment?

___

* Arguably, any user breaking 1,000 tracks/channels is just guilty of being terrible at optimizing his or her Logic files, and personally I think navigating such a behemoth would waste more time than any compute bottleneck ever would.
 
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SanderB80

macrumors newbie
Dec 17, 2019
9
3
I am a Logic user too and looking to buy a new Mac Pro. I have the Mac Pro 5.1 (Mid 2010, 12-core, 48gb RAM) which is holding up very well. But support for Catalina has come to an end and I can’t use some synths anymore because they require AVX on the cpu. It served me very well the last 9 years, but the time has come to look for a new one.

Looking at the base Mac Pro it doesn’t give much of an improvement (according to benchmarks). Single Core performance is better, but you get that also on a Mac Mini 2018.

I am looking at the 12-core, 32gb RAM and base GPU. That gives me twice the Single Core, twice the Multi-Core and the abillity to hook up 2 4k screens. That is more enough for me. RAM I can easily upgrade from third party if I find the need for it. SSD I am waiting for confirmation what is possible to upgrade myself. More cores (16, 24, 28) is really overkill for me personally.

But it all depends on what your needs are I think. I don’t need to record numerous tracks simultaneously with all realtime processing on it. and I don’t need 1000 tracks. I need a small buffer, many VI’s, processing power and a mastering chain in the same project.

Sander
 
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davidec

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2008
425
450
I went 16 core, 96GB, 4TB storage. I’ve got the Pegasus J2I with a Samsung pro 860 4TB SSD and the stock 8TB spinner. 16 core is the sweet spot for mine. No point going lower or higher
 

VJNeumann

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 26, 2017
46
73
I went 16 core, 96GB, 4TB storage. I’ve got the Pegasus J2I with a Samsung pro 860 4TB SSD and the stock 8TB spinner. 16 core is the sweet spot for mine. No point going lower or higher

I was thinking 16 core too. For a pure Logic machine I wouldn't feel much need for a huge internal SSD, as my libraries will all be external. (To my knowledge there's no performance gain to putting libraries on internal, but it's been years since I researched that.)

Did you add custom RAM?

I am looking at the 12-core, 32gb RAM and base GPU. That gives me twice the Single Core, twice the Multi-Core and the abillity to hook up 2 4k screens. That is more enough for me. RAM I can easily upgrade from third party if I find the need for it. SSD I am waiting for confirmation what is possible to upgrade myself. More cores (16, 24, 28) is really overkill for me personally.
Sander

I guess the question I can't shake here is whether you'd be better served by the iMac Pro for those specs. I know modular towers are great, but realistically I wonder is sustained CPU performance/thermal issues would ever actually be noticeable in an iMP for most Logic users (myself included).

If Apple released a non-XDR 32-inch display, that'd really sweeten the deal for the Mac Pro though.
 

davidec

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2008
425
450
I was thinking 16 core too. For a pure Logic machine I wouldn't feel much need for a huge internal SSD, as my libraries will all be external. (To my knowledge there's no performance gain to putting libraries on internal, but it's been years since I researched that.)

Did you add custom RAM?



I guess the question I can't shake here is whether you'd be better served by the iMac Pro for those specs. I know modular towers are great, but realistically I wonder is sustained CPU performance/thermal issues would ever actually be noticeable in an iMP for most Logic users (myself included).

If Apple released a non-XDR 32-inch display, that'd really sweeten the deal for the Mac Pro though.
Benchmarks are confirming 16 core is the sweet spot. I purchased stock ram. 3rd party will be fine but I don’t want any contingencies to start. Apples custom blades are fastest available so I went with those. Also because they may be time consuming to update later (need to contact Apple to do so). I also have a 4TB Samsung SSD which won’t be as fast but will use for a project drive.
 

SanderB80

macrumors newbie
Dec 17, 2019
9
3
I guess the question I can't shake here is whether you'd be better served by the iMac Pro for those specs. I know modular towers are great, but realistically I wonder is sustained CPU performance/thermal issues would ever actually be noticeable in an iMP for most Logic users (myself included).

If Apple released a non-XDR 32-inch display, that'd really sweeten the deal for the Mac Pro though.

yeah perhaps that‘s also an option to look into again. I like having two exact screens with exact same specs in front of me. My current Mac Pro served me very well the last 9 years and I think this new Mac Pro will serve me well for the following 9 years. I‘ve upgraded the CPU and GPU two times with my current Mac Pro. With the iMac I can’t do that.
 

tevion5

macrumors 68000
Jul 12, 2011
1,966
1,602
Ireland
I bought mine with Logic Pro as the main use case consideration before software development. I went with 12-Core, 32GB, 1TB SSD, Radeon 580 Pro.

12-Core allows for the RAM to operate at full speed and you're getting performance close to a maxed out iMac Pro. I don't know what your Logic requirements are but I doubt I'll be pushing my Mac Pro with those specs for a long time. RAM and Storage can always be upgraded easily as needed. I'll get an extra 16GB (2x8GB) aftermarket pretty soon so I can make use of all 6 channels. (CPU can even be upgraded too way down the line).

Between the fast internal storage, fast 6 channel memory and 24 virtual cores, I'll be surprised if Logic Pro doesn't run like anything other than an absolute dream.

All this said, if you are trying to get the most practical bang for buck in audio production I would struggle not to recommend the iMac Pro. It's a great system with an included 5k monitor. The huge expand-ability of the Mac Pro is worth the heavy extra cost to me, but it might not be for a lot of people.
 
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SanderB80

macrumors newbie
Dec 17, 2019
9
3
Yeah I am with you on that. When will your MP be delivered? I am curious to know how logic performes.
 

Boomish69

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2012
398
105
London
The i7 Mac mini single core performance is faster than any of the Mac Pro's so not all Logic users will benefit that much.
 

SanderB80

macrumors newbie
Dec 17, 2019
9
3
I understand that single core only comes in place in Logic when arming a track. And then only for that track.

I think you can only compare the two machines in real use in Logic.
 

VJNeumann

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 26, 2017
46
73
I was under the impression that the latest version of Logic had its multithreading capabilities expanded in anticipation of the Mac Pro (in addition to the iMac Pro, I suppose).

All this said, if you are trying to get the most practical bang for buck in audio production I would struggle not to recommend the iMac Pro. It's a great system with an included 5k monitor. The huge expand-ability of the Mac Pro is worth the heavy extra cost to me, but it might not be for a lot of people.

I agree, and I would say that I'm not personally too fazed by the price tag (unless the 7,1 benchmarks are truly awful), but I figured that it would be a good idea to turn this thread into a generic discussion of the hardware so that Logic users of all kinds might find some helpful advice.

Honestly, the issue I keep coming back to personally is the lack of non-XDR Apple displays. My kingdom for a 32-inch retina display or something like that...
 
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davidec

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2008
425
450
The i7 Mac mini single core performance is faster than any of the Mac Pro's so not all Logic users will benefit that much.
The NVMe drives will be about 25 times faster than those in the Mac mini. The ram will also be faster and multi core which ultimately is what it is all about in LPX will smoke that i7. ALL Logic users will see a major benefit
 

tevion5

macrumors 68000
Jul 12, 2011
1,966
1,602
Ireland
I was under the impression that the latest version of Logic had its multithreading capabilities expanded in anticipation of the Mac Pro (in addition to the iMac Pro, I suppose).

Logic Pro has taken big time advantage of multiple cores for a long time now. Even using Logic Pro 9 on a G5 quad-core vs any single/dual core mac of the same era is night and day. No doubt the new Mac Mini's i7 can handle a lot, but Logic Pro absolutely scales to make use of many more cores.
 

davidec

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2008
425
450
Can you post pics of the j2i?
 
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defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
The NVMe drives will be about 25 times faster than those in the Mac mini. The ram will also be faster and multi core which ultimately is what it is all about in LPX will smoke that i7. ALL Logic users will see a major benefit
25 times faster than the drive in the Mac Mini? Can you expand upon what you mean as the Mac Mini comes with some speedy drives (depending on which capacity you buy).
 

Boomish69

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2012
398
105
London
The NVMe drives will be about 25 times faster than those in the Mac mini. The ram will also be faster and multi core which ultimately is what it is all about in LPX will smoke that i7. ALL Logic users will see a major benefit
Lol 25 times?? I doubt that, maybe 10% if that, I can’t be bothered to look it up but Apple’s NVMe is already super fast, I doubt the Mac Pro is 25 times that.. Logics biggest drawback as in all DAW’s are its single core speed, each channel can only use a single core, at the moment that is already very high in the Mac Mini, just because a machine has more cores doesn’t make it faster, it depends what you use it for, look up single core v multi core, it’s like comparing a Ferrari to a truck, if your a writer playing virtual instruments and stacking a channel strip with inserts , you maybe get as much performance or more from the mini! If your a mixer with tons of tracks then the Mac Pro. So not all Logic users will see a difference..
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Logic Pro has taken big time advantage of multiple cores for a long time now. Even using Logic Pro 9 on a G5 quad-core vs any single/dual core mac of the same era is night and day. No doubt the new Mac Mini's i7 can handle a lot, but Logic Pro absolutely scales to make use of many more cores.
Logic can scale now more than ever whoo hoo, it makes use of all 24 of my MAC Pro cores, there was a time when it didn’t:( however each channel can only run in a single core..Get a new Mac Pro and keep adding Space Deisnger reverbs, IR1 or a CPU intensive plugin onto one channel, it will eventually max out. And the single core performance isn’t that much more than other current Mac’s..
 
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DPUser

macrumors 6502a
Jan 17, 2012
986
298
Rancho Bohemia, California
VI work: create multiple instantiations of the desired VI instead of stacking instruments within a single instantiation. Who wants/needs to run more than a 10 plugins on a single track?
 

peletrane

macrumors member
Jan 19, 2007
89
9
Chicago, IL
I got stock, with two upgrades: 12 core, 2 TB SSD. Just got a daisy chainable 8 TB Thunderbolt 3 hard drive that will handle all the files and projects. Will get another 8 TB Thunderbolt 3 HD as backup. Will get a 4 TB hard drive to back up SSD via Time Machine. Already have a basic 34" LG monitor, Hollywood Strings Orchestra hard drive for all kinds of strings and orchestration, USB MIDI controller, and Apogee Element 46.

Two Questions: (1) Thinking about 96 or 184 RAM upgrade. How should that be configured? What package should I buy to install with the existing 32 GB? Thanks. (3) any recommended Thunderbolt 3 MIDI controllers, or is that overkill? Thanks.
 

davidec

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2008
425
450
Lol 25 times?? I doubt that, maybe 10% if that, I can’t be bothered to look it up but Apple’s NVMe is already super fast, I doubt the Mac Pro is 25 times that.. Logics biggest drawback as in all DAW’s are its single core speed, each channel can only use a single core, at the moment that is already very high in the Mac Mini, just because a machine has more cores doesn’t make it faster, it depends what you use it for, look up single core v multi core, it’s like comparing a Ferrari to a truck, if your a writer playing virtual instruments and stacking a channel strip with inserts , you maybe get as much performance or more from the mini! If your a mixer with tons of tracks then the Mac Pro. So not all Logic users will see a difference..
[automerge]1576944435[/automerge]

Logic can scale now more than ever whoo hoo, it makes use of all 24 of my MAC Pro cores, there was a time when it didn’t:( however each channel can only run in a single core..Get a new Mac Pro and keep adding Space Deisnger reverbs, IR1 or a CPU intensive plugin onto one channel, it will eventually max out. And the single core performance isn’t that much more than other current Mac’s..

stick with your 5,1 kid. And whilst your there educate yourself on how LPX uses multi core - including on single channels!!! any new MP will smoke any Mac Mini or older MP on the market regardless of what you see in benchmarks.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,432
3,982
...
Honestly, the issue I keep coming back to personally is the lack of non-XDR Apple displays. My kingdom for a 32-inch retina display or something like that...

https://www.lg.com/us/ultrafine-monitors

Apple is only going to do one Display Docking station.... and the XDR is it. They haven't ventured past one since 2008. It has been well over 10 years and unlikely to change course now.


Apple is "back seat driving" these Ultrafine models. Especially the two that they sell in the Apple store. The 31.5" a bit less so since it has more than one video input ports. They have already outsourced those product. Apple isn't going to duplicate what they are already participating in.
 

Paradiseapple

macrumors regular
Aug 18, 2010
131
2
Germany
Hi friends, on my coming 16core Mac Pro 2019 i would like to use tons of samples like from Eastwest- or VSL-library. its about 5 Tb. Which storage would be perfect for it? Is an external Thunderbolt Raid-system fast enough or do i need an internal SSD?
 

Boomish69

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2012
398
105
London
stick with your 5,1 kid. And whilst your there educate yourself on how LPX uses multi core - including on single channels!!! any new MP will smoke any Mac Mini or older MP on the market regardless of what you see in benchmarks.
Lol you’ve no idea...each channel can only use 1 core, and while each core can have multiple threads it isn’t possible to split that thread across multi cores, that’s why even with the maxed out Mac you have to distribute a channel strip if it has a lot of CPU intensive plugins...ram helps, faster cpu helps but that’s it, trying telling your statement to someone who has spent the last decade or so complaining about a CPU overload on a single core spike when trying to play a large Kontakt or Play multi instrument. Kid..
 
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SanderB80

macrumors newbie
Dec 17, 2019
9
3
Nice! I just ran the same test on my 5.5 Mac Pro 12-core (2x 6-core) 3,46Ghz.
I got 110 Tracks, so this is a nice improvement!

Really like to see what 8-core and 12-cores are doing as I am opting for a 12-core new Mac Pro.
 
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