Logic Pro X and 2017 iMac i7 -- Is the fan that bad?

[JVNeumann]

It should also be noted that the RAM in the iMac Pro is not user upgradable.

Indeed, although I suspect Apple doesn't leave it in the regular iMac because they want users adding their own RAM - it's presumably just there because it lightens the load for their BTO and repair teams.

I reckon they'll kill that function if they can find any good way to.

 

[OS X Dude]

I reckon they'll kill that function if they can find any good way to.

Definitely - there's no way the next iMac will feature user-upgradable RAM when the Pro doesn't. It'd confuse some customers and outrage others.

The justification for this will likely be a redesign in the form of 'de-chinning' the standard iMac. It'll probably have smaller bezels and be less powerful than the top-tier models we have now, so as to draw a clear line between it and the Pro. Like how people waited for the MBP to be upgraded only to be horrified by the 2016 redesign, I fear we could see that again (particularly since desktop sales lag behind laptop ones so fewer customers will be incensed). I only hope I'm wrong.

 

[EugW]

Indeed, although I suspect Apple doesn't leave it in the regular iMac because they want users adding their own RAM - it's presumably just there because it lightens the load for their BTO and repair teams.

I reckon they'll kill that function if they can find any good way to.

Nah, it’s because a lot of their 27" iMac customers would revolt otherwise, unless they dropped the price of RAM upgrades significantly. I may not have bought an iMac 27” if I couldn’t add my own RAM, at least at the prices they charge for RAM.

Also I'd say it's probably actually easier for them for repair troubleshooting if nobody was allowed to use aftermarket RAM.

Definitely - there's no way the next iMac will feature user-upgradable RAM when the Pro doesn't. It'd confuse some customers and outrage others.

The justification for this will likely be a redesign in the form of 'de-chinning' the standard iMac. It'll probably have smaller bezels and be less powerful than the top-tier models we have now, so as to draw a clear line between it and the Pro. Like how people waited for the MBP to be upgraded only to be horrified by the 2016 redesign, I fear we could see that again (particularly since desktop sales lag behind laptop ones so fewer customers will be incensed). I only hope I'm wrong.

I would be surprised if the 2018 iMac large size (27"?) does not have user upgradable RAM.

The iMac Pro market will be a small niche market, so they can get away with more restrictive options there. Those who want full modular upgradability will have the option of the 2018 Mac Pro.

 

[Ethosik]

That of course is not true, and also, as has been mentioned several times on this forum, fan behaviour is one of several factors to consider.

Then maybe the iMac is not for you then? The 2013 Mac Pro is still being sold by Apple on their site, still comes with an option for three years of Apple Care, so Apple will support it for at least the three years after you buy it. Apple is still supporting 2009 hardware with the latest operating systems.

Even with an i5 2017 iMac, I can hear the fans at idle. I can hear my 2016 MacBook Pro fans at idle. I can hear my 2013 rMBP fans at idle. I can hear my 2010 Mac Pro idle when it is under my desk. I can hear my 2015 custom built PC when it is idle under my desk. I can hear my parent's 2014 iMac when it is idle. Computers have fans, they make noise. I don't get the big deal here. If silence is THAT important to you, you need to look at very very low end hardware and passive cooling instead of fans (MacBook for example).

Most audio setup have the recording equipment in a separate room away from the computer, and the cables go in the ceiling and to the other room to connect to the computer. It doesn't matter how loud the computer gets when it is set up that way.

I understand the appeal of a quiet computer. That is a "nice to have" item and IMO should in no way be of any impact of your purchase - getting a properly specced out system should be. As in if the i7 was too loud for you and you are fine with the i5, then the i5 is the properly speeced out system for you. It is not like these things idle and the noise is loud enough to hurt your ears. If you need an environment to be truly silent, you need to change the setup, not chase silent computers. As in have the computer in a partition room, and have the cables/recording equipment in the other room.

I will be very surprised if I am wrong, but I anticipate the iMac Pro to be even louder with dual fans.

 

[EugW]

Then maybe the iMac is not for you then? The 2013 Mac Pro is still being sold by Apple on their site, still comes with an option for three years of Apple Care, so Apple will support it for at least the three years after you buy it. Apple is still supporting 2009 hardware with the latest operating systems.

Even with an i5 2017 iMac, I can hear the fans at idle. I can hear my 2016 MacBook Pro fans at idle. I can hear my 2013 rMBP fans at idle. I can hear my 2010 Mac Pro idle when it is under my desk. I can hear my 2015 custom built PC when it is idle under my desk. I can hear my parent's 2014 iMac when it is idle. Computers have fans, they make noise. I don't get the big deal here. If silence is THAT important to you, you need to look at very very low end hardware and passive cooling instead of fans (MacBook for example).

Most audio setup have the recording equipment in a separate room away from the computer, and the cables go in the ceiling and to the other room to connect to the computer. It doesn't matter how loud the computer gets when it is set up that way.

I understand the appeal of a quiet computer. That is a "nice to have" item and IMO should in no way be of any impact of your purchase - getting a properly specced out system should be. As in if the i7 was too loud for you and you are fine with the i5, then the i5 is the properly speeced out system for you. It is not like these things idle and the noise is loud enough to hurt your ears. If you need an environment to be truly silent, you need to change the setup, not chase silent computers. As in have the computer in a partition room, and have the cables/recording equipment in the other room.

I will be very surprised if I am wrong, but I anticipate the iMac Pro to be even louder with dual fans.

The iMac IS for me. Just not the i7, which is the point.

Some people don't mind the i7 on their desks. Some people are fine with the i5 on their desks, but not the i7 because of the i7's increased fan noise in some situations. And some people are not fine with any iMac on their desks, because even 1200 rpm is too annoying.

Why is it so difficult to understand that everyone's preferences are different and yes, this can very well heavily impact purchase decisions for some people? If you don't care, then great, but your preferences are not the same as everyone else's.

BTW, I have zero interest whatsoever in the Mac Pro. In fact, I would specifically avoid that machine since it is essentially end-of-life'd, and is missing some features that modern Macs have. But if it would suit someone else's needs well, then great.

 

[propower]

For Audio folks the first criteria in a new machine is how fast and how many cores do you need to do your work today. Next is how much headroom above this for future expansion do you wish to have. If the answer to the first two allows for an i5 or i7 then the iMac is an option. Then - what connectivity do you need and how will you do that (plenty of folks need PCIe slots).

If one can fit there work in an i5 with acceptable headroom and they want the quietest computer at all times then the i5 is a good choice. If that same person wants the headroom of the i7 - for most workloads that fit in an i5 the i7 will also run at base fan speed. If one needs the power that only the i7 will give - then one gets to choose whether the tradeoffs the iMac gives (screen etc..) are worth any increase in fan noise while working. If so - great - if not then "today" the 2013 MacPro would be a better answer. Which also happens to be a bit louder than a 1200 RPM 2017 imac unless you put it significantly away from yourself or behind/under things.

The notion that "Most audio setup have the recording equipment in a separate room away from the computer, and the cables go in the ceiling and to the other room to connect to the computer. It doesn't matter how loud the computer gets when it is set up that way." is much more true in the high end pro-for-hire recording studios. What percentage of iMac audio users this represents is a fascinating question. This person says "most" - I would guess this is more like less than 10%.

FWIW - I actually "record" in a separate room but mix where the computer is in front of my face (where else do you put an iMac . The 1200RPM fan is fine for me (of course i can hear it) but it is the only spinning thing in that room. I went all SSD many years ago. The quiet "nice to have" machine has been a requirement for me as long as i have been doing this with computers (~20 years).

 

[BeechFlyer]

I've had the new 27" iMac with the i7 for over a month now. I have Logic Pro, but mostly use it for video work (FCP X) where audio quality is also important, though probably not as important as for music.

I can definitely hear the fan spin up and down, depending on the tasks (transcoding, rendering, etc.), but I would not call it distracting. Granted, this is a highly subjective topic, but having the air conditioning in the building go on and off, or the noise of the refrigerator in the room is far more annoying to me than the iMac's fan.

 

[Ethosik]

The iMac IS for me. Just not the i7, which is the point.

Some people don't mind the i7 on their desks. Some people are fine with the i5 on their desks, but not the i7 because of the i7's increased fan noise in some situations. And some people are not fine with any iMac on their desks, because even 1200 rpm is too annoying.

Why is it so difficult to understand that everyone's preferences are different and yes, this can very well heavily impact purchase decisions for some people? If you don't care, then great, but your preferences are not the same as everyone else's.

BTW, I have zero interest whatsoever in the Mac Pro. In fact, I would specifically avoid that machine since it is essentially end-of-life'd, and is missing some features that modern Macs have. But if it would suit someone else's needs well, then great.

I didn't say everyone's preferences are the same. In fact, I said the opposite when I said you spec what you need. I am with you on the Mac Pro. Also, I am not a fan of the Xeons since they lack QuickSync and all my FCPX exports take AGES compared to even my 2013 rMBP.

And that is fine if the i5 fits your needs - no need for the i7 in your case. Why did you get an i7 at first if the i5 fits your needs perfectly fine? My point is, if you absolutely NEED the i7, then fan noise should not be a major concern here. You spec out your system for your needs, but I do not think fan noise should be in the considerations. These things are not damaging to the ears while idle, most can't even hear it at idle speeds (I can and I do not have great hearing).
[doublepost=1502921777][/doublepost]

The notion that "Most audio setup have the recording equipment in a separate room away from the computer, and the cables go in the ceiling and to the other room to connect to the computer. It doesn't matter how loud the computer gets when it is set up that way." is much more true in the high end pro-for-hire recording studios. What percentage of iMac audio users this represents is a fascinating question. This person says "most" - I would guess this is more like less than 10%.

I have seen a lot of single person shops and startups do this. Not as sound proof as high end professional recording studios, but they have their full tower desktop that is pretty noisy in a separate partition'ed off room/large closet and the actual equipment out in the room. Cables going through the floor or ceiling to the room with the computer. Some of them even set up a TV with the display duplicated so they can see the recording progress.

Regardless if it is not common, that is the best way to handle this situation. It doesn't have to be a $50,000 room with perfect sound proofing. I have seen even floor-to-ceiling cubicle setups for this as well, and it does help with the noise level - again not professional studio grade 100% perfect sound proof, but enough where a loud computer does not make it through the walls. Loud co-workers are still a problem.

 

[EugW]

And that is fine if the i5 fits your needs - no need for the i7 in your case. Why did you get an i7 at first if the i5 fits your needs perfectly fine? My point is, if you absolutely NEED the i7, then fan noise should not be a major concern here. You spec out your system for your needs, but I do not think fan noise should be in the considerations. These things are not damaging to the ears while idle, most can't even hear it at idle speeds (I can and I do not have great hearing).

I often get more than I absolutely need, because I prefer to keep my computers a long time, but in this case it didn't work. Plus it's a nice luxury to have more since it's a multi-purpose machine after all.

The last time I also got more than I absolutely needed, but it was fine. That older i7 iMac didn't get loud anywhere near as fast as the current i7 iMac. My old i7 iMac also can reach the same noise level, but it takes a lot longer to get there.

 

[MDMachiavelli]

I have a 13" MBP running Logic Pro X and I have never noticed the fan at all.

 

[Ethosik]

I often get more than I absolutely need, because I prefer to keep my computers a long time, but in this case it didn't work. Plus it's a nice luxury to have more since it's a multi-purpose machine after all.

The last time I also got more than I absolutely needed, but it was fine. That older i7 iMac didn't get loud anywhere near as fast as the current i7 iMac. My old i7 iMac also can reach the same noise level, but it takes a lot longer to get there.

Yeah I understand. I got 64 GB of RAM now but I really only need between 16 and 32.

 

[lowkey]

The notion that "Most audio setup have the recording equipment in a separate room away from the computer, and the cables go in the ceiling and to the other room to connect to the computer. It doesn't matter how loud the computer gets when it is set up that way." is much more true in the high end pro-for-hire recording studios. What percentage of iMac audio users this represents is a fascinating question. This person says "most" - I would guess this is more like less than 10%.
.

Back when I had a Dual 1.25Ghz G4 Powermac Mirror Drive Door model I had to build it into my clothes cupboard because it was so god-damn noisy. My MBP at full fan spin isn't anywhere near as load as that this was ALL THE TIME. Not only that, but the fans in the MDD G4 were constantly changing speed. They would slow down to minimum, then speed up to maximum then back down again over about a 30 second cycle. This was so much more distracting than the constant noise you typically get from fans because it was always changing pitch! LOL I hated that computer!

 

[ccmdav]

I'll chip in here, as a Mac and PC guy who did systems builds on the latter side for several years.

The wide variance in reported experiences with the iMac fan has to do with environment and configuration. You put the i7-7700K, a Radeon Pro 580, and a large SSD/Fusion Drive into an iMac in a 72º room, of course it's going to be running the fans audibly. But put in an i5-7500, Radeon Pro 570/575 and a 256GB SSD in a 68º room, and you should barely hear anything at all except under the most extreme CPU loads.

Here's some numbers to think about:

• The i7-7700K has a TDP (thermal design power) of 91W, as does the i5-7600K.
• The i5-7500 and i5-7600 both run within a TDP of 65W.
• The Radeon Pro 570/575 run within a TDP of 120W
• The Radeon Pro 580 runs within a TDP of 180W.
• Hard drives put out roughly double the heat as an SSD. (Not to mention they are noisier when operating anyway.)

Other components, like the PSU, RAM, and motherboard contribute modestly to the equation, but in a manner that is more-or-less consistent across configs.

So do the math - the difference between the top configuration and base configuration 5K iMac is an extra 87W of TDP to deal with. In terms of actual BTU/h that needs to be dissipated, I don't have exact numbers for the base machine (it's 741 BTU/h for the top config); but it's basically like sticking in a decently bright incandescent bulb inside that small case... it's going to heat up fast.

I'm in the market myself, and the shared experiences have been helpful... hopefully I have been helpful too. It sucks that the Apple machine with the best single-threaded performance is so thermally compromised. I don't know about the rest of you, but any of these machines would work fine for me in terms of track count. It's single-threaded performance that is my bottleneck. I get lazy about switching buffer sizes in Logic when switching between tracking and mixing, and I would prefer to have a machine that doesn't seize when I start slamming the master output with DSP... plugs like Ozone, RX, and just about any Acustica plugin can bring my current 2011 system to it's knees.

I'll report back with some results once I figure out my game plan.

 

[rjsounds]

I'm in the market myself, and the shared experiences have been helpful... hopefully I have been helpful too. It sucks that the Apple machine with the best single-threaded performance is so thermally compromised. I don't know about the rest of you, but any of these machines would work fine for me in terms of track count. It's single-threaded performance that is my bottleneck. I get lazy about switching buffer sizes in Logic when switching between tracking and mixing, and I would prefer to have a machine that doesn't seize when I start slamming the master output with DSP... plugs like Ozone, RX, and just about any Acustica plugin can bring my current 2011 system to it's knees.

I'll report back with some results once I figure out my game plan.

Film composer here, just figured I'd mention I've been running the i7/580/512SSD since August as my main workhorse for Logic Pro X for composing and haven't heard a peep in terms of fan noise since I've bought it (only for rendering video do I hear the fan). Temps seem under control, and I just finishing wrapping one of my biggest projects to date with just over 100 tracks with various orchestral samples, and many many different 3rd party VST synths and various effects, multiple reverbs, etc. Still had plenty of CPU power too, and Logic Pro is still very snappy with no lag or anything, and I'm my projects off of an external 7200RPM hard drive. Good luck!

 

[Smoothie]

I'll chip in here, as a Mac and PC guy who did systems builds on the latter side for several years.

The wide variance in reported experiences with the iMac fan has to do with environment and configuration. You put the i7-7700K, a Radeon Pro 580, and a large SSD/Fusion Drive into an iMac in a 72º room, of course it's going to be running the fans audibly. But put in an i5-7500, Radeon Pro 570/575 and a 256GB SSD in a 68º room, and you should barely hear anything at all except under the most extreme CPU loads.

Here's some numbers to think about:

• The i7-7700K has a TDP (thermal design power) of 91W, as does the i5-7600K.
• The i5-7500 and i5-7600 both run within a TDP of 65W.
• The Radeon Pro 570/575 run within a TDP of 120W
• The Radeon Pro 580 runs within a TDP of 180W.
• Hard drives put out roughly double the heat as an SSD. (Not to mention they are noisier when operating anyway.)

Other components, like the PSU, RAM, and motherboard contribute modestly to the equation, but in a manner that is more-or-less consistent across configs.

So do the math - the difference between the top configuration and base configuration 5K iMac is an extra 87W of TDP to deal with. In terms of actual BTU/h that needs to be dissipated, I don't have exact numbers for the base machine (it's 741 BTU/h for the top config); but it's basically like sticking in a decently bright incandescent bulb inside that small case... it's going to heat up fast.

I posted the following last summer when there were very interesting discussions here regarding the choice of the 7600K or the 7700K to run Logic Pro X:

The 7600K and the 7700K are both rated at 91 watts for TDP. TDP is not a measurement of how much power a chip uses. It's a rough measure of how much power is generated in heat by the chip so that a computer designer can come up with a good cooling solution. (There is some correlation between power used and heat dissipated.) The problem is that TDP is somewhat arbitrary, since chip manufacturers often assign the same TDP to a series of chips with different clock speeds and the existence or non-existence of hyperthreading. Clock speed and hyperthreading are major contributors to heat generation.

Although the 7600K and the 7700K have the same TDP according to Intel, the 7600K runs cooler than the 7700K. This is shown in tests where the chips are subjected to load testing. (The 7700K has a higher base clock speed and it has hyperthreading.) It's possible that Intel lumped the 7600K and the 7700K together regarding TDP because the "K" signifies that the chips have an unlocked multiplier which allows a user to overclock the chips. But Apple doesn't provide for overclocking.

 

[DQ11]

There *are* people that care about fan noise when doing music production (can't stand when people say "who cares", everyone is different with regards to sensitivities, etc). That being said, I specifically bought the i7 iMac with the 4.2 processor for Logic Pro X use. This is my first Mac, I'm super sensitive to fan noise, and all the threads about fan noise had me really worried.

I spent a week doing all kind of stress tests. Hundred track projects with tons of plugins, etc...and I haven't experienced anything too bad at all. I *do* have a very cold room, which I think helps (AC keeps the room at around 65 degrees, which I like). I'm running iStat Menus and watch the fan speed and CPU temp a lot. Even when Logic Pro pushes the CPU significantly, I haven't had the fans ramp up much at all. I know some other folks in other threads have been able to get the fans to ramp up, but it doesn't last long, usually.

I will agree that loud fan speed is a bit obnoxious (sounds like a hair dryer), but I personally have not experienced those fan speeds when using Logic.

This gives me hope. I am trying to decide between the i5 or i7. I want the 27" with i7 but not sure if something like 50 tracks would push it to rev up and even if it did....if I would mind the noise that much.

How is the noise compared to something like an old 2007 MBP ?

 

[ccmdav]

This gives me hope. I am trying to decide between the i5 or i7. I want the 27" with i7 but not sure if something like 50 tracks would push it to rev up and even if it did....if I would mind the noise that much.

How is the noise compared to something like an old 2007 MBP ?

To answer your question, and to follow up, I now have the 4.2 i7/575 Radeon/256 SSD 27 inch iMac. I only heard the fan noise when I had it upstairs in my kitchen while doing some software installs over the internet, and it was 72° in the room at the time. My studio is in my basement, which stays around 66°, and I have yet to hear the fan running once, even with more demanding Logic projects of 50+ tracks.

The only reason to get the i7 would be to get the utmost single thread performance if you have demanding insert chains on your master bus (or a record-enabled track with input monitoring) and don’t want to have to switch to a high latency buffer setting. In terms of multithreaded performance, they are both more than powerful enough to handle all but the largest and most demanding mixes.

If your room is significantly warmer than mine (and it probably is), you may get a bit more fan noise out of the i7 than the i5, all other things being equal. The only way to be sure is to run it in your room with your projects.

There is a compelling case for buying directly from Apple... it’s the only way (to my knowledge) you can have the option of returning the computer if you find that fan noise is a dealbreaker. All the other third party sellers that I considered buying from did not allow for returns on Apple computers. And I checked a dozen of the largest retailers.

And I am quite certain that a 2017 iMac would be quieter overall than any 10 year old Apple laptop. The last MacBook Pro I owned was a 2006 model, and it was a little jet plane, even in cold rooms.

[doublepost=1523653706][/doublepost]

I posted the following last summer when there were very interesting discussions here regarding the choice of the 7600K or the 7700K to run Logic Pro X:

The 7600K and the 7700K are both rated at 91 watts for TDP. TDP is not a measurement of how much power a chip uses. It's a rough measure of how much power is generated in heat by the chip so that a computer designer can come up with a good cooling solution. (There is some correlation between power used and heat dissipated.) The problem is that TDP is somewhat arbitrary, since chip manufacturers often assign the same TDP to a series of chips with different clock speeds and the existence or non-existence of hyperthreading. Clock speed and hyperthreading are major contributors to heat generation.

Although the 7600K and the 7700K have the same TDP according to Intel, the 7600K runs cooler than the 7700K. This is shown in tests where the chips are subjected to load testing. (The 7700K has a higher base clock speed and it has hyperthreading.) It's possible that Intel lumped the 7600K and the 7700K together regarding TDP because the "K" signifies that the chips have an unlocked multiplier which allows a user to overclock the chips. But Apple doesn't provide for overclocking.

You are absolutely right. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[DQ11]

To answer your question, and to follow up, I now have the 4.2 i7/575 Radeon/256 SSD 27 inch iMac. I only heard the fan noise when I had it upstairs in my kitchen while doing some software installs over the internet, and it was 72° in the room at the time. My studio is in my basement, which stays around 66°, and I have yet to hear the fan running once, even with more demanding Logic projects of 50+ tracks.

The only reason to get the i7 would be to get the utmost single thread performance if you have demanding insert chains on your master bus (or a record-enabled track with input monitoring) and don’t want to have to switch to a high latency buffer setting. In terms of multithreaded performance, they are both more than powerful enough to handle all but the largest and most demanding mixes.

If your room is significantly warmer than mine (and it probably is), you may get a bit more fan noise out of the i7 than the i5, all other things being equal. The only way to be sure is to run it in your room with your projects.

There is a compelling case for buying directly from Apple... it’s the only way (to my knowledge) you can have the option of returning the computer if you find that fan noise is a dealbreaker. All the other third party sellers that I considered buying from did not allow for returns on Apple computers. And I checked a dozen of the largest retailers.

And I am quite certain that a 2017 iMac would be quieter overall than any 10 year old Apple laptop. The last MacBook Pro I owned was a 2006 model, and it was a little jet plane, even in cold rooms.

[doublepost=1523653706][/doublepost]

You are absolutely right. Thanks for clarifying.

Yea I'm 100% buying it through Apple, and I think I may be a bit over worried about the noise as I don't really know how many of my songs would be over 50+ tracks as I've never even been able to get over 20-25 on my old MBP before issues.

So considering that, I think the i7 would actually be ok as I'm not sure I'd be pushing it to it's limits to ramp the speed up anyways.

The room I'd have it in would be around 68 degrees most likely.

Also there is the feeling of.....If I'm going to spend $2,850 on the 21.5 imac...or $3,150 on the 27"....I might as well just spend $3,400 and get the best specs I can.

At that point once I've committed that much money...whats another $300-400 compared to nearly $3,000.

thanks for the response though...helps me a bit with my decision.

There is also the hope that we get some kind of 2018 update version or a redesign as well.