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Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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In the US there are lots and lots of 2 to 6 story apartments that is very common in the US but you just don’t see in Canada well out side of Victoria BC.

And well likewise there are lot and lots of mid and high rise apartments build in the 50s, 60s and 70s in Canada. It also not uncommon to see high rise residential in Canada in small communities of only 50,000 people or 100,000 people and cities of only 200,000 people to have many high rise apartments and witch is also not uncommon to plonked down high rise residential in low density suburb away from the down town area or urban core areas. And lot of these high rise residential are next to mall, park or major street or highway.

Some one said the reason was public transit was one of the factors if it is low rise or high rise. Where if you are poor and low income in the US you are more likely to drive so they build more low rise apartments with set backs and parking lots. Where in Canada if you are poor and low income you more likely to take city bus so they opt for more high rise apartments. They go on to say high rise apartments can have better public transit than low rise apartments in different parts of the city. And because Canada is more culturally public transit than the US hey built more high rise apartments and now high rise condos boom going on.
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2014
7,579
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Some one said the reason was public transit was one of the factors if it is low rise or high rise. Where if you are poor and low income in the US you are more likely to drive so they build more low rise apartments with set backs and parking lots. Where in Canada if you are poor and low income you more likely to take city bus so they opt for more high rise apartments.
I am pretty sure the "Some one" is wrong.

Where if you are poor and low income in the US you are more likely to drive so they build more low rise apartments with set backs and parking lots. Where in Canada if you are poor and low income you more likely to take city bus so they opt for more high rise apartments.
Terms like "poor" and "low income" are subjective, but what I can tell you about the US is that the "poor" are less likely to own a car and more likely to take the bus than the non-poor.

Public transportation isn't great in some areas in the US outside of population centers, but if you live in a city, at least a big city, there are adequate of public transportations.

Using public transportation might be desired by some, but most households in the US have at least one car.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
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I've lived in the states of California, Virginia, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. Apartment buildings come in all shapes and sizes, depending on the original developer. Occasionally, a city works with a developer to provide more services, such as public transportation, if there is enough potential demand.

If you're talking about low income, U.S. government project housing, it's usually one or possibly two story. Concrete block walls usually separate the apartments. The minimum of conveniences are available. I've seen some on the edges of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania which are likely 20 story buildings. However, it's more likely that more of the high-rise apartment buildings in the area are for the very, very rich, such as the Rittenhouse Square area. Some were converted in the late 1980s to condominiums for up to US$1.5 million.

Lately, here in California, I've seen some minimal apartments in this town of 80,000 that are fairly nice. I said the words "low income" and got a stern "affordable housing". Around 2018, I was looking for an apartment that was affordable. I traveled to one set and noticed that the most expensive apartments in town were next door. US$650 or so in contrast to US$2800. I was surprised where the expensive apartments were built.

If there are experts anywhere, I'd be surprised, but it would be nice for them to fix the housing crisis many states are having.

If you haven't seen Tiny Houses, I'd be surprised that the person talking about housing didn't mention them.
 
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avz

macrumors 68000
Oct 7, 2018
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Stalingrad, Russia
High rise apartments are extremely high maintenance. When infrastructure fails and lifts begin to fail, imagine having to replace all lifts in a NY. Low occupancy in a high rise apartment buildings is also not helpful when economic situation is bad.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
29,603
28,365
In the US there are lots and lots of 2 to 6 story apartments that is very common in the US but you just don’t see in Canada well out side of Victoria BC.

And well likewise there are lot and lots of mid and high rise apartments build in the 50s, 60s and 70s in Canada. It also not uncommon to see high rise residential in Canada in small communities of only 50,000 people or 100,000 people and cities of only 200,000 people to have many high rise apartments and witch is also not uncommon to plonked down high rise residential in low density suburb away from the down town area or urban core areas. And lot of these high rise residential are next to mall, park or major street or highway.

Some one said the reason was public transit was one of the factors if it is low rise or high rise. Where if you are poor and low income in the US you are more likely to drive so they build more low rise apartments with set backs and parking lots. Where in Canada if you are poor and low income you more likely to take city bus so they opt for more high rise apartments. They go on to say high rise apartments can have better public transit than low rise apartments in different parts of the city. And because Canada is more culturally public transit than the US hey built more high rise apartments and now high rise condos boom going on.
In Phoenix and Glendale, AZ there has recently been lots of 3-4 story apartments going up, but also lots of 2-3 bedroom homes that are jammed into small lots. The small homes are controlled and only for rent/lease, not for sale.

There is a apartment tower in downtown Phoenix that is more than four stories. Only those living there call it town homes and you need a minimum income of at least six figures before they will consider allowing you to live there. That's to the south side of the Japanese Friendship Garden in the old section of Phoenix.
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,349
7,896
In Phoenix and Glendale, AZ there has recently been lots of 3-4 story apartments going up, but also lots of 2-3 bedroom homes that are jammed into small lots. The small homes are controlled and only for rent/lease, not for sale.

Huge development of these north of the 101 off 17. They were built specifically to rent and it looks like a nice community. And a 2-BR house with a small yard is cheaper than what the offspring pays in LA for a 1-BR apartment (wife checked as we are trying, unsuccessfully so far, to get her to move to Phoenix).
 
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eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
29,603
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Huge development of these north of the 101 off 17. They were built specifically to rent and it looks like a nice community. And a 2-BR house with a small yard is cheaper than what the offspring pays in LA for a 1-BR apartment (wife checked as we are trying, unsuccessfully so far, to get her to move to Phoenix).
I live in Camelback Ranch. Avilla Camelback Ranch is right next to us. Used to be an empty lot that only CVS sat on. Now there's this and a Scooter's Coffee next to the CVS.


Our mortgage for a 3 bedroom home is around $600 less than the low end rent for a 3 bedroom in Avilla. Granted, Avilla is a gated community, but I used to walk across that field to get to CVS and it's small.

What's interesting is that there is minimal parking at Avilla. There was a small access road behind CVS when we moved in and many of the residents park on that access road (it's off 107th Ave) and on Highland Ave. in front of the entrance to Avilla.

If the rent there is less than Cali, then it got much worse after we left Cali 24 years ago.
 
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bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
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Her rent is $2800 for a 1-BR, but she is up in Canyon Country. It is a nice apartment: granite, W/D included,garage, etc.
That's better than Silicon Valley. It's more than that for a Studio apartment in San Jose.
 

jedimasterkyle

macrumors 6502a
Sep 27, 2014
564
822
Idaho
In various parts of Idaho, especially in the greater Boise area, there are apartment complexes going up left and right. 800-900 sq ft with very few amenities but going for, AT MINIMUM, $2000 a month...

There are housing communities being built as well so long as you are fine with having a 20x5 strip of grass as your backyard, having your neighbors 3ft away and paying in excess of $3500 a month...for a 1000 sq ft house.

My wife and I have been kicking ourselves that we didn't buy a house when the market crashed in 08-11. We would have been dirt poor but damn...having a $400 house payment at almost zero interest back then looks like a steal compared to today.
 
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decafjava

macrumors 603
Feb 7, 2011
5,498
8,009
Geneva
Ok, outside of Victoria, BC there are plenty of highrise (more than 6 story) apartments, not only Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, but also Ottawa, Hamilton (heck the whole "Golden Triangle" from Hamilton through Toronto and Oshawa) and other cities so not sure where you got your info from?
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
1,100
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I am pretty sure the "Some one" is wrong.


Terms like "poor" and "low income" are subjective, but what I can tell you about the US is that the "poor" are less likely to own a car and more likely to take the bus than the non-poor.

Public transportation isn't great in some areas in the US outside of population centers, but if you live in a city, at least a big city, there are adequate of public transportations.

Using public transportation might be desired by some, but most households in the US have at least one car.

It is only what I read that high density areas will have better public transit but I don’t know if that was the reason city planner built so many high rise apartments in Canada. And hated low rise apartments because of terrible public transit they would have. I don’t know if that was reason or there was other reason why they built so many high rise apartments in Canada.
 

KaliYoni

macrumors 68000
Feb 19, 2016
1,785
3,928
My wife and I have been kicking ourselves that we didn't buy a house when the market crashed in 08-11. We would have been dirt poor but damn...having a $400 house payment at almost zero interest back then looks like a steal compared to today.

Just a quck thought...I make my living via financial markets and something I always try to keep in mind is to not carry regret about past decisions. If a trade or not-trade decision was made rationally and with the best information you had at the time, there is no reason to dwell on your action (or non-action).

Also, don't forget about opportunity cost. If you had other, possibly better, uses for all the $$$ you would have spent on everything associated with buying real estate, you, again, made an appropriate decision.
 

jedimasterkyle

macrumors 6502a
Sep 27, 2014
564
822
Idaho
Just a quck thought...I make my living via financial markets and something I always try to keep in mind is to not carry regret about past decisions. If a trade or not-trade decision was made rationally and with the best information you had at the time, there is no reason to dwell on your action (or non-action).

Also, don't forget about opportunity cost. If you had other, possibly better, uses for all the $$$ you would have spent on everything associated with buying real estate, you, again, made an appropriate decision.
That is sound advise but at the time of the crash, we were newly-weds making minimum wage and all we could afford was our current apartment. That's why I said we would have been dirt poor with buying a house but at least we would have had one then instead of wishing for one now.
 
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bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
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In various parts of Idaho, especially in the greater Boise area, there are apartment complexes going up left and right. 800-900 sq ft with very few amenities but going for, AT MINIMUM, $2000 a month...

There are housing communities being built as well so long as you are fine with having a 20x5 strip of grass as your backyard, having your neighbors 3ft away and paying in excess of $3500 a month...for a 1000 sq ft house.

My wife and I have been kicking ourselves that we didn't buy a house when the market crashed in 08-11. We would have been dirt poor but damn...having a $400 house payment at almost zero interest back then looks like a steal compared to today.
I remember reading that the mayor of Boise hated Californians so much and people from Silicon Valley and Central Valley who have moved there have obviously screw up the housing market, much like it is here.

20x5 sounds like that strip on the credit score commercial. In my apartments, I usually just had a balcony big enough for two chairs and a table.
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,585
13,429
Alaska
In the US there are lots and lots of 2 to 6 story apartments that is very common in the US but you just don’t see in Canada well out side of Victoria BC.

And well likewise there are lot and lots of mid and high rise apartments build in the 50s, 60s and 70s in Canada.
It also not uncommon to see high rise residential in Canada in small communities of only 50,000 people or 100,000 people and cities of only 200,000 people to have many high rise apartments and witch is also not uncommon to plonked down high rise residential in low density suburb away from the down town area or urban core areas. And lot of these high rise residential are next to mall, park or major street or highway.

Some one said the reason was public transit was one of the factors if it is low rise or high rise. Where if you are poor and low income in the US you are more likely to drive so they build more low rise apartments with set backs and parking lots. Where in Canada if you are poor and low income you more likely to take city bus so they opt for more high rise apartments. They go on to say high rise apartments can have better public transit than low rise apartments in different parts of the city. And because Canada is more culturally public transit than the US hey built more high rise apartments and now high rise condos boom going on.
Maybe you haven't driven enough around Canada? Victoria is just one of several Canadian cities, not "just" Canada. Drive around every NYC borough, and you will see plenty of high-rise apartment buildings. Also, the building size depends a lot on the cost of real-estate. For example, a two-floor apartment building in Manhattan would cost quite a lot less than an eight-floor apartment building. But if you build a 2-floor apartment building, lest say...in Plattsburgh, NY (close to the border), it would cost a lot less than in NYC. So in Plattsburgh there is a better chance for a landlord to afford a 2-floor apartment building, than it is for the same landlord to afford a high-rise apartment building in Manhattan.

Why should anybody build a high-rise apartment building outside of the city where there aren't enough people to rent the apartments? Regardless of where you look around the world, the taller apartment buildings are located in areas where the greater number of people live or congregate, or where the real-estate is more expensive-plus more crowded with people or businesses. High rise office buildings are quite common in Manhattan, or just city centers around the world.

Ah! I just thought about the following: a termite mound where only 2 termites live compared to a termite mound where lots of termites live. Which one would be the taller of the two?
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,585
13,429
Alaska
Ok, outside of Victoria, BC there are plenty of highrise (more than 6 story) apartments, not only Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, but also Ottawa, Hamilton (heck the whole "Golden Triangle" from Hamilton through Toronto and Oshawa) and other cities so not sure where you got your info from?
You are correct, of course.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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Maybe you haven't driven enough around Canada? Victoria is just one of several Canadian cities, not "just" Canada. Drive around every NYC boroughs, and you will see plenty of high-rise apartment buildings. Also, the building size depends a lot on the cost of real-estate. For example, a two-floor apartment building in Manhattan would cost quite a lot less than an eight-floor apartment building. But if you build a 2-floor apartment building, lest say...in Plattsburgh, NY (close to the border), it would cost a lot less than in NYC. So in Plattsburgh there is a better chance for a landlord to afford a 2-floor apartment building, than it is for the same landlord to afford a high-rise apartment building in Manhattan.

Why should anybody build a high-rise apartment building outside of the city where there aren't enough people to rent the apartments? Regardless of where you look around the world, the taller apartment buildings are located in areas where the greater number of people live or congregate, or where the real-estate is more expensive-plus more crowded with people or businesses. High rise office buildings are quite common in Manhattan, or just city centers around the world.

Ah! I just thought about the following: a termite mound where only 2 termites live compared to a termite mound where lots of termites live. Which one would be the taller of the two?

Looking around google earth it seems there is number of 6 to 10 story mid rise apartments in southern Ontario and other apartments high rise. So it appears there are mid rise and high rise.

But I don’t see 2 to 5 story apartments that is typical in many US cities.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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Why should anybody build a high-rise apartment building outside of the city where there aren't enough people to rent the apartments? Regardless of where you look around the world, the taller apartment buildings are located in areas where the greater number of people live or congregate, or where the real-estate is more expensive-plus more crowded with people or businesses. High rise office buildings are quite common in Manhattan, or just city centers around the world.

Ah! I just thought about the following: a termite mound where only 2 termites live compared to a termite mound where lots of termites live. Which one would be the taller of the two?
Normally in the US city planning has zoning laws that high rise goes in high density areas and mid rise goes in medium density areas and low rise goes in low density areas. And high rise goes in the down town area.

Some cities may even have hight limit zoning to not block view of skyline of mountains

Canada may have non of this and any thing goes may explain why it is so different up there in Canada.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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Well the only other theory other than public transit was the reason those low rise apartments construction was made very cheaply and fire hazard may be that reason city planners in Canada hated low rise apartments where the high rise apartments where built much better and fire safety in mind.

But in the US investors and developers don’t want to build expensive apartments so they build lots of cheaply made low rise apartments but city hall or at federal government level in Canada bans those low rise cheaply made apartments and there is no incentive to build low rise good construction units because of cost for investors and developers to build good low rise apartments with fire safety in mind.

I hear low rise apartments are mostly made of wood with may be some brick that separates the next unit but high rise apartments in Canada are large concrete.

There was video I saw on YouTube of a 4 story apartment and in 6 minutes the fire gone from window to other story and then the roof and the fire spreading across the roof.

It seems some of these apartment buildings Americans have are very cheaply made and fire hazard. Where in Canada they are better made and fire safety in mind. I wonder if the government ban those low rise apartments in Canada because of safety and cheaply made.

It is possible the government would allow low rise apartments in Canada but they would have to be all large concrete and too costly for investors and developers so they build mid rise or high rise and because of all the people in the apartment it pays for the construction.
 
Before I say anything more, I’m disclosing here that I’m an urbanist trained and based in Canada. I grew up in the U.S., but have lived in Canada for about twenty years. This includes multiple cities in multiple provinces and states within each nation-state.

So the following long take is a mix of qualified opinions and, as needed, qualified citations. Reader beware. :)

In the US there are lots and lots of 2 to 6 story apartments that is very common in the US but you just don’t see in Canada well out side of Victoria BC.

There are a couple of things to unpack here.

First is defining “apartment” scales: typically, one- and two-storey apartment developments and complexes are “low-rise”. Until not too long ago, “mid-rise” referred to apartment structures between three and maybe up to 12 storeys, with everything beyond that designated as “high-rise”.

In recent years, the planning profession have come to recognize apartment/condo housing structures between three and five-storeys as a missing link in what you’ve probably heard mentioned before. It’s called “the missing middle”. This “low-mid-rise” scale for many major North American cities, though not all, has been a blind spot in official zoning plans, which traditionally have specified limits on dwelling/structure capacity of developments based on “floor-area ratio”, or FAR.

For several decades after WWII, the priority was to develop an abundance of low-FAR housing — typically, single-family detached tract houses deployed in master-planned subdivisions which ringed a city centre and were segregated, by design and, principally speaking, by income bracket. It was rare to see call-outs for housing FARs in subdivisions to exceed 2 or maybe 2.5-to-1 — translated, that basically amounts to two-storey; two-storey plus basement; or two-storey-plus-loft structures.

For the most part, one could see an abundance of low-mid-rise apartments in both American and Canadian cities, but these were almost entirely constructed before 1940. Think of three- and four-storey “greystones” and “brownstones” — both the type with an entrance courtyard (and with a footprint of the structure, as seen from above, resembling a letter “C” and sometimes “L”, if located on a corner, with a rear-facing courtyard), as well as late 19th century walk-ups, like in Brooklyn and Philadelphia. There are also mixed-use brownstone buildings, usually under six storeys, built along commercial corridors prior to about 1940.

This former, pre-WWII style makes appearances in cities as Los Angeles, Toronto, Seattle, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Chicago, Hamilton, Winnipeg, and even central Vancouver, as well as smaller cities on both sides of the border.

In fact, because so many low-mid-rise brownstones of the “C/L”-footprint were built in and around Los Angeles during the 1920s and into the 1930s, it gave the city the distinction of, paradoxically, being a bad case of sprawl (as L.A. was built by stitching together a bunch of scattered villages and towns, via use of boulevards and highways, once the local petroleum industry and automobiles took off), yet also sporting among the greatest number of low-mid-rise apartments in the U.S. — making the city unusually efficient at building mid-density housing at the time they were built than in other newer cities (that is: those cities founded after Jefferson’s Land Ordinance of 1785 — the origin of most road grids of N-S and E-W cardinal orientation — or, basically any city established after about 1800, west of Appalachia).

But there’s another style of low-mid-rise housing built before WWI which not only came about early, but are also specific to two North American cities: Boston and Montréal. Both cities, indisputably, have made excellent use out of limited geography by building contiguous blocs of three- and four-storey apartments, often with two external sets of staircases emerging from the front of the buildings. This style was derived from Glasgow in the late 1800s and was considered a smart way to build for colder climates.

Some American cities, like Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, and also much of the desert southwest, meanwhile, eschewed low-mid-rise housing almost completely, instead later dropping in one- and two-storey apartment complexes built to resemble suburban tract housing: typically built with parking lot moats on private driveways and, occasionally, limited carport coverings for parking closest to the private, internal walkways leading to an apartment bloc).

* * *

Second is your confirmation bias.

In the U.S., only a few cities, prior to about 1995, were really taking on robust development of mid-rise new construction of apartments, condos, and townhouses. (It was rare for new, low-mid rise developments outside of, say, Portland and Seattle.) This began to change after cities lost their industrial and manufacturing bases, leaving behind both multi-storey warehouses which would later get converted to pricey lofts, and the conversion of brownfield lands for new condo projects.

By the mid ’90s, it was clear the next place where people were looking to live was more inward than in the previous half-century, and a lot of cities scrambled to catch up and to convert. That is: cities saw potential in old industrial lands being be returned to earning property tax revenue, via retrofitted housing. Many of those became the low-mid rise dwellings one now sees more frequently in gentrified cities around the U.S. and Canada. For American cities which lacked them, their sudden appearance since 2000 has completely changed how those cities look today — even smaller cities like Kansas City, Little Rock, Birmingham, and Buffalo have several of these new-build low-mid rise condos.

Also, a distinctly American style of condo development, usually around five or six storeys (but often consuming long city blocks facing a commercial street), are the “fortress condos” to have popped up in several cities — most notably in Seattle (with Capitol Hill and Belltown being huge, well, offenders in city planners granting those developments).

In cities like Halifax and Toronto, meanwhile, the target scale of housing these cities wanted to see built, ca. 1996–2004, were taller mid-rise buildings, up to twelve storeys, with “step-backs”, often from fifth floor and up. The step-backs were mandated to create a less imposing façade on the main streets they faced. But these developments were not generally the low-mid-rise of the “missing middle” being discussed today.

And yes, these days the “missing middle” is freaking out people who defend a highly inefficient style of housing, the single-family detached house, as developers are striving to meet updated city plans house more people in the city by increasing FAR allowances in places which, previously, kept them very low.

A way to do this is to buy disused one- and two-storey houses (either left sitting empty for years or the cost to renovate would far outweigh the value of the structure), and to re-purpose the lots for three- and four-storey apartments or town homes which do run taller than the tallest of adjacent of the older, two-storey houses, but make much better use of that land and preserve access to core amenities (like groceries and fixed-rail transit stops).

But there’s this thing called NIMBY, and that’s a whole other conversation about two conflicting, irreconcilable principles which have made the current housing shortage so severe.


And well likewise there are lot and lots of mid and high rise apartments build in the 50s, 60s and 70s in Canada. It also not uncommon to see high rise residential in Canada in small communities of only 50,000 people or 100,000 people and cities of only 200,000 people to have many high rise apartments and witch is also not uncommon to plonked down high rise residential in low density suburb away from the down town area or urban core areas. And lot of these high rise residential are next to mall, park or major street or highway.

So there’s a whole thing about what you’re describing, and yes, I am well familiar with the phenomenon. To understand the logic behind why so many taller housing buildings were built in major and medium Canadian cities throughout the late ’60s to the mid ’80s, one must look at two factors.

The first was an anticipated demographic surge of baby boomers entering the housing market for the first time. Canada, more so than the U.S., rose to address this expected surge whilst also recognizing how many of the family-sized houses (some of those large estates in neighbourhoods like Toronto’s Annex), were quickly going empty as families aged out. Yet these emptying estates were still too expensive for all but the most well-to-do — even for ornate, turn-of-century houses which looked more like haunted houses — to afford. Many would end up abandoned.

Recognizing how boomers would typically be looking for one- and two-bedroom apartments, Canadian planners zoned for high-FAR housing along major corridors and developers began quickly building a lot of higher-rise apartments — typically greater than ten storeys, and sometimes as high as maybe 25 storeys. Although a few were built along side streets, most were built on major concession line roads. In addition, in the rush to build upward, many of the blueprints would get re-used multiple times within even the same city, often by the same developer, to cut costs. They were cookie-cutter in every way.

The second was a lot of cities, including Vancouver (I’m name-dropping that for a reason, hold tight), were building these high-rise towers along where municipal- and provincial-level transportation planners were foreseeing where they would be razing neighbourhoods full of large, but mostly dilapidated, semi-empty houses, to make way for expressways. For a time, many cities expected this to be the new way of city building, and zoned land for high-rises adjacent to potential, high-vehicle-use throughways. This idea was modelled after Le Corbusier’s utopian (but really, just plain dystopian) vision of the modern city, ca. 1926.

But by the time Jane Jacobs left NYC for Toronto, there was strong backlash against this planning trend (one mirroring, in part, what was happening with the Eisenhower Interstate Highway system in the U.S.), as razing entire neighbourhoods and communities, typically non-white, absolutely shattered the social fabric and brought in a lot of airborne lead pollution.

In Toronto, one of those expressways was halted by 1971. To this day, one can still see several high-rise and tall mid-rise 1960s-era apartments built along Spadina Road, where the Spadina Expressway was slated to be built…

expressway-dupont.jpg


…which today, same vantage, looks like this (in Google Earth).

1710835786593.png


[Fun fact: If you have ever watched Scott Pilgrim Vs. the World with Michael Cera, the most distal end of that road in the second pic is actually a steep city park staircase — the same used to portray the demise of Lucas Lee as Evil Ex #2.]


The third, concentrated to specific developments, is the social safety net in Canada: since WWII, it has long been much stronger than in the U.S. — possibly in part because Canada never really had a New Deal; the Great Depression lingered a lot longer; and remedial, but comprehensive efforts to correct, including Tommy Douglas’s single-payer healthcare, to emerge after the war).

A minority share of new-build, high-rise apartments in nearly every major Canadian city, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s, reserved allocated capital budgeting for social and community housing in ways which the U.S. generally did not.

After learning lessons on how not to build social and community housing, cities like Toronto abandoned Ebenezer Howard-like “garden city” renewal projects cordoned off from the city, after recognizing the fundamental flaw with that approach to development, after Regent Park was built as an urban renewal initiative in 1948 (replacing unsafe row-housing tenements built in the 1880s, often without central plumbing).

So by the 1960s, high-rise social and community housing, connected to the city grid (and not removed from it), took shape in the form of high rises peppered around the cities. At time of build, high rises were also more cost-effective than, say, renovating old houses or finding dwindling tracts of greenfield (undeveloped) land far at the city’s peripheries. It was less expensive for a city or province to buy a parcel of land the size of a fraction of a city block and build upward, rather than to buy lots of land and build flat.

So I brought up Vancouver. Vancouver was the one major North American city to ban construction of expressways cutting through previously-developed neighbourhoods. It is why Highway 99, most of it the Sea-to-Sky Highway, turns into a boulevard around, I think, the Marpole neighbourhood, and doesn’t return to being highway until one gets north of the city.

Vancouver, like Seattle and San Francisco, deals with hard geographic constraints, so the rise, pun intended, of high-rise housing emerged there faster than other cities where the land constraints weren’t so pronounced.


So, tl;dr: You do see low-mid-rise apartments in Canada, in several of the major cities, with many of those built before WWII. You just need to know where in town to look and to know the style of construction used. You also need to keep a mental picture of roughly when certain scales of housing were being built and why they were being built like that.


Some one said the reason was public transit was one of the factors if it is low rise or high rise.

Before WWII, public transit and walking got you to work. Before WWII, trolleys and streetcars were common, even in smaller cities. The only housing just beyond the city’s outer limits, particularly in older cities, was either farm/ranch housing or housing built hastily to circumvent city by-laws and ordinances mandating central plumbing and sewage by a certain deadline. The bulk of automobile owners were folks who joined leisurely motoring clubs and were not, typically, working class.

The first “suburbs” were those areas served by streetcars and, in big cities, subways. It was effective, less cramped than the original city plans at time of founding, and offered convenient access to nearby amenities, like the once-ubiquitous corner grocery and corner laundromat.

Cities which grew substantially, prior to WWII, were the earliest cities to build mid-rise and early high-rise brick towers, including L.A., St. Louis, and Chicago.

WWII and what came after completely changed all of that.

Where if you are poor and low income in the US you are more likely to drive so they build more low rise apartments with set backs and parking lots.

I’m discussing the public transit infrastructure laid into place before WWII. Until, basically, the 1970s and 1980s, low-income households tended to be left behind in expressway-gutted, white-flight-drained cities, or relegated to old, rural housing in poor repair. From the 1950s to the early 1990s, the suburbs were being built for people in the middle class (the North American meaning of the term) or working class. This began to shift after the recession of the early 1990s and, in no small part, was linked to the shuttering of manufacturing and industrial activity.

Where in Canada if you are poor and low income you more likely to take city bus so they opt for more high rise apartments.

Sorry to be this way, but I already covered this above. Also, the relationship between wealth and the use of public transit in major cities is a poor metric. That is to say: a lot of comfortable and well-to-do people, including Bay Street types (that’s the Canadian Wall Street), will take the subway to and from the downtown “core”. Subways and surface public transit are still the easiest ways to get to major sporting events in Vancouver, Toronto, and Montréal.

Canada lacked a national-level Interstate highway or National highway funding, planning, and execution like that of U.S. cities. Canada largely missed the established conspiracy of Standard Oil, General Motors, and Firestone, working together from 1950 to sway cities to rip out their public transit infrastructure to put in petroleum buses (whose routes, unlike fixed rail, could be moved around or yanked easily).

So Canada, missing all that mess, invested in their cities, post-WWII, in ways U.S. cities did not.

Cities like Vancouver maintained its electric trolley bus infrastructure; cities like Edmonton and Calgary dropped in light-rail lines in the early 1980s (where almost nowhere else in the U.S. — Portland and SFO excepted — was doing that); cities like Toronto and Montréal engineered their entire subway systems between 1954 and 1986; and Toronto, instead of retreating from streetcars, sought to replace them with a newly designed fleet to enter service at the end of the 1970s, when no other North American city was doing that.

Not all of the provincial and municipal highways planned for several medium- and larger Canadian cities were built.

There was also no way Canada could afford a robust national highway plan like the U.S., because it was too much capital to cover spans as long as the U.S., but serving only a tenth the population. So a lot of development in Canadian cities tended to look at extracting better uses for transit-served lands where, previously, razed houses (which were structurally sound, but no longer had families to fill them) and parking lots had once stood. And for those highways which were built federally, they are the Trans-Canada routes, some of them overlays with provincial highways — for which long stretches are, still, two-lane highways.


They go on to say high rise apartments can have better public transit than low rise apartments in different parts of the city. And because Canada is more culturally public transit than the US hey built more high rise apartments and now high rise condos boom going on.

Who is “they”? I’d really like to know. Cheers.



EDIT to add: While apartment housing heights remain an overarching topic here, there’s a recent illustrated overview on the history of public high-rise housing in, specifically, New York City and its federally funded origins. (NYC is also its own creature in a number of ways unique to an American city.) The graphic illustration recap covers how and why disinvestment on capital upkeep of existing high-rise housing stock, coupled with partial privatization of that housing, precipitated a cascade of persistent shortfalls plaguing access to affordable housing in good states of repair to this day. It also touches on the aforementioned razing of communities for major expressways, but also underscores the community ties to emerge out of the need to not only keep their homes, but also to find new financial instruments for maintaining that public housing stock.

It’s a sidebar, but a worthwhile one to ponder along with the above I posted earlier.
 
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jedimasterkyle

macrumors 6502a
Sep 27, 2014
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Idaho
I remember reading that the mayor of Boise hated Californians so much and people from Silicon Valley and Central Valley who have moved there have obviously screw up the housing market, much like it is here.

20x5 sounds like that strip on the credit score commercial. In my apartments, I usually just had a balcony big enough for two chairs and a table.
I dont remember the mayor of Boise saying that directly (I'm not ruling it out either) but unfortunately, there is a very large amount of the local population who are most unhappy about all of the people moving here from California. I personally dont have a problem with it but, they came here with a TON of cash in hand and bought up all of our cheap housing and then boom, everything quadrupled in price almost overnight. For now, Idaho's cost of living is still relatively low and our utilities are I think some of the cheapest in the nation but when you factor in the cost of housing, plus how low Idaho employees are paid, there is a massive imbalance in terms of what locals can afford and what out-of-towners can buy.
 
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