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MP 7,1 LTT: ECC is dumb; 'buy base model nMP if you want a status symbol but don't care about performance'
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Mai
a Maine coon ?
Yes, clearly the "R.I.P. Mac Pro" tombstone was no longer appropriate.
And that isn't my kitten, but I have one that's nearly the same. Assuming that you can call a 20 lb (9 kilo) beast a "kitten".
a Maine coon ?
my MP 3,1 had ONE corrected error in six YEARS at least according to the logs.
I wonder where this numbers come from. So by those numbers, my (non ECC) hackintosh would experience about 40(!) bit errors per hour(!). I wonder why it doesn't exhibit any symptoms whatsoever. I have never experienced random crashing and no altered data so far, and my hack also runs for about six years now.
That's only because the Cascade Lake Xeon W-32xx used in the Mac Pro has x64 lanes of PCIe on the CPU die, while the Skylake Xeon W-21xx used in the HP Z4 G4 has a total of x48 lanes of PCIe 3.0 on the CPU die, so that accounts for at least one of the missing PCIe slots at x16 or 2-x8 slots in the Z4 G4.
Notice how the MPX Vega GPUs use up two slots when installed. That's because there aren't enough PCIe lanes for them to have 4-double wide PCIe slots all running at x16. I guarantee you those slots run at x8 with an MPX module installed and Thunderbolt 3 devices attached because Apple is specifically telling us they are giving the Thunderbolt 3 connectors in the MPX module access up to x8 PCIe lanes. Each MPX Vega GPU has 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, each pair of ports needs x4 PCIe 3.0 bandwidth. Maybe they are using a PLX or they are rerouting the Thunderbolt 3 ports through the PCH, but it only has x20 PCIe 3.0 lanes, so my money is on the PCIe slots containing an MPX GPU to have x8 going to the GPU and x8 for the four (4) Thunderbolt ports and if there are no Thunderbolt devices. This particular piece of engineering in the Mac Pro fascinates me.
I believe the only guaranteed x16 PCIe 3.0 slot is going to be the one they put the Afterburner card in at the factory. I guarantee you there will be a warning from Apple about reduced performance if you move it to a different PCIe slot.
The two additional x8 slots are hooked up directly to the CPU, while the half length PCIe card for the Thunderbolt 3/USB 3.0 PCIe card is hanging off of the PCH.
Xeon W-32xx CPU - x64 lanes of PCIe 3.0
-------------------------------------------------------
Starting bottom to top
Slot 1 - x16 (x8 GPU/x8 Thunderbolt 3 when an MPX module is installed, or x16 GPU and x8 Thunderbolt 3 with a PLX switch/splitter/voodoo magic)
Slot 2 - x16 (x8 when Slot 1 is filled with something non-MPX, x0/Disabled when an MPX module is in Slot 1)
Slot 3 - x16 x8 GPU/x8 Thunderbolt 3 when an MPX module is installed, or x16 GPU and x8 Thunderbolt 3 with a PLX switch/splitter/voodoo magic)
Slot 4 - x16 (x8 when Slot 1 is filled with something non-MPX x0/Disabled when an MPX module is in Slot 3)
Slot 5 - x16 (Afterburner card must be installed in this slot)
Slot 6 - x8
Slot 7 - x8
Total - x64 lanes of PCIe 3.0
C621 PCH - x20 lanes of PCIe 3.0
-------------------------------------------------------
Slot 8 - x4 (TB3/USB 3 I/O card)
2-10GbE ports - x2 (I honestly don't know how many lanes each 10GbE port takes, so I defer to another's expertise on this.)
256, 1TB, 2TB or 4TB of Flash Storage - x4
2-TB3 port on top of Mac Pro case - x4 lanes
Total - x14 lanes of PCIe 3.0, x6 PCIe lanes left over, probably unusable. The the 802.11AC/Bluetooth 5.0 and the two SATA ports are free, meaning they have no impact on the x20 count if the C621 follows the typical Intel PCH layout.
So while the Z4 G4 doesn't have the expansion of the Mac Pro, its as close to a reasonable comparison as I could make to the Mac Pro, because dual slot Xeon SP HP Z8 workstations are not. Would I like the Mac Pro to be cheaper or have a better base model for $5999, yes. Is it more advanced than a Z4 or Z8...I think that the proof will be when it gets out in the wild.
My gut says yes, Apple spared no expense and are charging handsomely for it. But they had better deliver...they squandered six (6) years ignoring the 2013 Mac Pro and their Pro customers.
When Dell, HP and Lenovo announce their Cascade Lake W workstations, it will be easier to make a closer comparison.
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I don't know Linus from Adam, but he now has a larger staff and they are putting out videos quite frequently (nearly daily). Having the other guy (Anthony) build stuff is called delegation, which is something Linus has to do given the other managerial and business duties he performs at LTT.
Anthony is doing the Linux builds showing off macOS running as a Virtual Machine and he recently did a review of the 2019 MacBook Pro by himself. I think Linus is way smarter than anyone is giving him credit for, but he is also the face of Linus Tech Tips and at some point if you did your job correctly and you are successful, you end up having to take a more hands off approach to keep growing the business. Just my 2¢.
Again, I don't know Linus or Anthony or anyone at LTT, but I do subscribe to the channel. I don't watch every video, just the Mac specific ones, mostly.
This post is far too reasonable, you can't bring that in here! Lots of questions to be answered. Can't wait for Ars Technica and the usual suspects to do a complete breakdown.
Was it running at 100% mem utilisation for 6 years?
Workstations and especially servers generally subject to much high utilisation and throughput than a typical computer, and that can account for a big chunk of the difference.
For machines that are on 24x7 crunching and changing bits literally all the time ECC can be essential. Nobody wants to have to re-run the job that took days (or weeks) to setup and run, or explain why a critical service had an outage, however brief.
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And I imagine that as usual they will be extremely capable and very good value. I know this point has been made before but it's worth making again... with HP/Dell/Lenovo you can guarantee rolling updates on a regular schedule to get access to new tech. Once upon a time Apple did this, then they stopped, if they're going to do it again that will be great, but they have to earn that trust back.
LOL! I do try to be reasonable. I have posted some stuff in anger with some vitriol that I probably shouldn't have when arguments have gotten really heated with other forums members.
I love Apple, but even they do stuff and then try and PR speak it away that just burns me up. I cannot say the Mac Pro is or isn't worth the $6K asking price at this point. None are in the field, so we have no evidence that it is a monster worth the cost, but it is worth more than a collection of parts that many forum posters contend is Apple screwing us over. It's more complicated than that. Again, I have no use for one of these, so I have no dog in the hunt, but if 4K HDR and 8K content is going to get off the ground in a meaningful way, this is the computer to do it....again. This is what Apple does that is intangible...it pokes the PC OEM bear sleeping comfortably on its bed of VGA and USB ports and throws a hornet's nest into the room, sometimes to its own detriment. Sadly, that has been lacking for a while, but computers are a mature market, so what can they really do?
One of my favorite posts on AnandTech is Anand's review of the 6,1 Mac Pro. It's 15 pages and worth every bit of time to read - https://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013 - he goes into the PCIe layout, which was a compromise as the CPUs (Xeon E5v2's) were PCIe 3.0, but the C600 PCH had just x8 lanes of PCIe 2.0...in 2013! Needless to say, it explains the idiosyncrasies of which devices go where when you plug things into the Thunderbolt 2 ports.
I wish Anand still worked at Anandtech, but Apple hired him and that's that, we hardly ever him from him anymore. I do wonder if he helped influence the design of the new Mac Pro and of the Xeon W-32xx series. x64 lanes of PCIe 3 is pretty jaw dropping, but then again AMD threw down that gauntlet, so maybe Intel picked it up. Goodness knows they are milking the Xeon and 14nm gravy train for as long as they possibly can.
To me, Ars Technica no longer seems to have any staff interested in doing anything in depth about the Mac anymore. Andrew Cunningham left and while he wasn't hardcore, he seemed to have more interest than anyone currently employed. The shift for them seems to be more cultural, political and entertainment than previous iterations and so I no longer visit them nearly as much.
I am eager to hear the technical details of the Mac Pro and how the MPX module works in the real world for the Pro market doing real things with it. Apple really screwed up by not keeping the 2013 Mac Pro up to date over the past 6 years. If I was in the market for a 2019 Mac Pro, I would be more worried about the commitment by Apple to Pros than I would the computer itself.
But Mac Pros are not servers. While in some cases they might be used the way you described, most Mac Pros probably are not used this way (or used rarely).
I noticed that when configuring Dell workstations one can select ECC or non-ECC RAM (perhaps this also requires different choice of CPUs). This sounds like a good approach to me. Those who need ECC can pay for it, while those who don't will save money (and may even get better performance for what they do).
Yes, Apple has to do that to the extent that they can...Intel has picked up the cadence of their Xeon releases, but how that translates to Xeon W releases over time is anyone's guess. The problem will arise more with AMD's cadence of GPU updates as the Navi rollout is just dragging right now and Apple has boxed themselves in by offering these monster dual chip Vega GPUs that aren't going to see an update for quite a while from AMD. 7nm is their cutting edge right now and so I seem them as the bottleneck more than Intel. PCIe 4.0 is entirely dependent on Intel, so all Apple can do is sit and wait on that as well.
If Apple is running their NAND modules through the PCH, they are limited there to a certain speed ceiling for storage. The rated speed on the Mac Pro detail page is nothing to write home about, so I hope that Apple is underpromising with overdelivering coming soon. At this point, I have to say I am a bit disappointed in the storage offering on the Mac Pro. However, the Intel 905p PCIe x4 card I would want to stick in one of those x8 slots isn't really any faster, so go figure. Plus, I don't think Optane will boot based on what I have read in the Mac Pro 5,1 forums, but I could be wrong.
Apple is going to have to earn Pros trust back, so the best way to start would be to have a better support arrangement. I think AppleCare+ should be included in there by default (3x3 support). For $6K I should not have to worry about whether I missed the 60 day window for 3 years of AppleCare. Then I think Apple should offer additional tiers of support at an additional cost. Corporate leasing may not care as they won't have it more than 3 years, but small shops and individuals who are planning to keep the Mac Pro a while should be able to purchase 4-, 5- and 6-year onsite AppleCare Pro which I think might make them feel a bit more confident. Other vendors offer this coverage and I think Apple should consider offering something similar. There are lots of Apple Stores, but they are not always convenient. Just my 2¢.
ECC isn't necessarily dumb, but as the price of the Mac Pro climbs it becomes clearer that a segment of users could get on just fine without it. You can't tell me every Mac Pro customer needs ECC RAM, yet it adds substantially to the cost of the machine.
Of course, for Apple who uses storage to increase their margins on consumer machines, that's likely the point. Or at least, that's the cynical take.
Of course, for Apple who uses storage to increase their margins on consumer machines, that's likely the point. Or at least, that's the cynical take.
But why pay for the option of 1.5 TiB RAM expansion if you'll never need more than 32 GiB ????
I didnt read on yet but thats not the only reason. I own a z4 actually and the reason is because its a small computer. There is no room in the case for more expansion slots regardless of the pci-e lanes.
Exactly! If you needed more expansion, you would have purchased a Z6 or Z8.
Some of the Apple fans tie themselves into knots to apologize for the lack of flexible options in the Apple world.
Congrats to Linus for building a popular YouTube channel but calling him an influential voice in the workstation market is laughable. The few times he ventures into the Red Cinema ecosystem he gets quickly out of his depth as well.
Apple has decided to only make 1 skew for the pro. Hp makes 3.
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Linus is pretty cool. He has a few great people working for him. check out anthony and his osx virtual machines. Really impressive stuff.
[doublepost=1560461044][/doublepost]we cant compare the z4 directly to the macpro. The numbers are way different. We need to find a comparable workstation with the xeon-w and the same size case with the equivalent options. Otherwise its just mental masturbation.
I profoundly disagree.
This should not be a discussion of hardware, but of workflow.
- if you'll never use more than 32 GiB of RAM, whether the system supports 64 GiB or 1536 GiB is irrelevant
- if your tools max out at supporting 8 cores, then whether the system supports 10 cores or 28 cores or 64 cores is irrelevant
- if you need 1 TB of disk, whether the system supports 2 TB internally or 2 PB externally is irrelevant
For example, an earlier Z4 vs MP7,1 comparison put $549 on the Z4 tab for a dual port 10 GbE adaptor. If you don't have a 10 GbE infrastructure - that's a bogus addition of $549 on the Z4. If you have 10 GbE, but only need 1 port, the X550 single port card is about half that price from Newegg.
You can compare the Z4 directly to the MP7,1 if the Z4 meets your needs, or your expected needs over the couple of years life of the system.
If you need more than the Z4, then don't use it as a comparison. But be careful in comparing a Z6 or Z8 to the MP7,1 - the Z6 and Z8 are dual socket Xeon Gold systems that blow the 7.1 out of the water on specs.
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if the system doesnt meet your needs then you shouldnt buy it. If you dont need pci-e cards you shouldnt be buying this thing. Like you get so much more with a imac or the macmini from a cost perspective.
[doublepost=1560463157][/doublepost]Like I wish I didnt need a pile of cards in my computer and stacks are rack boxes dangling off those cards.
My response was based on technical information, not on physical dimensions. The Z4 uses Xeon W and the complaint was made that the Z6 or Z8 used Xeon SP or were dual CPU models, so I opted to keep things technically similar, not dimensionally similar since you didn't elaborate in your response to me.
Not tying myself in knots for Apple, the context of his response was short and I defaulted to technical reasons, not physical ones. Lets see if HP gives us a large chassis and a small chassis workstation using the Xeon W-32XX Series CPUs given the extra PCIe lanes the CPU contains, hmmm? You would want HP to use all those lanes and not let any go to waste, right?
HP has at least six SKUs for the Z4 alone. It has seven different models of Z-series workstations, each with a handful of SKUs.
What is your point?
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Nonsense. You compare Apples Xeon-W box with HP's Xeon-W box.
You can't honestly compare Apple's single socket Xeon-W box with HP's Scalable Xeon multi-socket box.
im not trying to fight or debate. hp hasnt released any computers with the new w-xeon yet. We just dont know what the pricing will be.
@filterdecay isn’t disagreeing with you, he’s disagreeing with me...perhaps you should take a step back and a deep breath. You seem to be looking for a fight.
Isn't the Z4 expandable enough though?
It has 8 RAM slots and 5 PCIe slots with the ability to hold up to 2 graphics cards, 2 MVNe drives, 2 optical drives or up to 4 hard drives. That sounds like plenty of expansion.
Funny... this didn't seem to be a problem a week ago...
Yes the new Mac Pro has many options for expansion. But it doesn't mean PC workstations are suddenly suffering from too little expansion.
People have been getting along just fine with Windows workstation towers for a looong time.
Isn't the Z4 expandable enough though?
It has 8 RAM slots and 5 PCIe slots with the ability to hold up to 2 graphics cards, 2 MVNe drives, 2 optical drives or up to 4 hard drives. That sounds like plenty of expansion.
Funny... this didn't seem to be a problem a week ago...
Yes the new Mac Pro has many options for expansion. But it doesn't mean PC workstations are suddenly suffering from too little expansion.
People have been getting along just fine with Windows workstation towers for a looong time.
I own the z4.
I am just saying you cant compare the products because they are different. A closer product is the z8 but obviously the cpus are wrong so we need to wait and see.