M1 graphics is as we feared. Mediocre at best.

[Sanpete]

You're moving the goalposts around, and your accountant example was particularly bad. I'll show why.

It was Apple itself that marketed this device as 3x to 5x faster than average computers, and marketed one of them as a "PRO" device – obviously, the "PRO" here means "pro user", i.e, users with high demands.

The people you mentioned here would be perfectly suited with whatever the x86 world has to offer, and even with lower computational solutions.

Now, why was your accountant example so bad?

An accountant could probably make do with a computer from 10 – 15 ago with Excel (which would be better on Windows anyway). You could try to argue: "yeah, but this accountant needs processing this extra power for very demanding computational processing.

Well, guess what... chances are they'd still need Excel, and even if they didn't, the type of computer they need is very different. Chances are they would be much better off focusing on storage speed.

There's a complex continuum, and where to draw the lines is somewhat arbitrary, but the 13" MBP is aimed at professionals. It can handle low-level professional workloads even in content creation--I regularly see creative pros here saying they use it for that. The new one can do that even better than before.

And there's more to it than computational performance. There's also compatibility with peripherals and monitors (a point where the M1 falls down a notch), reliability, professional appearance, etc.

I would divide 'Pro' into two categories, business class and workstation class. Apple has historically catered more for creative professionals and 'content creators' who require workstation-class machines. So the Mac Pro, iMac Pro and Macbook Pro have been seen as workstations, whilst the iMac, Air and Mac Mini are 'prosumer' machines for general home or business use.

Because Apple's Pro machines have hisorically been aimed at content creators, It's not unreasonable for people to view the new Air as a prosumer machine and the Pro as a workstation-class machine. So I understand why they're disappointed when the M1 Pro doesn't have workstation features such as multiple monitors or support for more than 16GB ram.

Yes, that's well put. The disappointment about external monitors in particular makes sense, given that it's a step backward. The RAM limitation is the same as before for the base models.

If you were looking for a GPU that can do dedicated GPU tasks, like 3d rendering or gaming, then you're traditionally looking for a computer with a dedicated GPU, and the iGPU in the M1 does nothing for you.

Sure you could make do with the M1 GPU, but there's 4 years worth of progress you'd be missing out on, and battery/portability don't usually factor into consideration when you need raw power. In that regard, you could replace your 4 year old Macbook Pro (with a dedicated GPU) with a Macbook Air and not notice any performance degradation, but you wouldn't get any increase in performance either.

This doesn't seem to match the reviews I'm seeing.

View attachment 1670792 They didn't identify when exactly the Air starts to throttle but certainly it appears after 30 minutes of continuous usage throttling has taken place in the MBA

What's also significant there is that it shows no throttling for the MBP.

You tend to get the most flak when you are over the target. The fact that for a "pro" machine only having an integrated graphics card as the only option and and no dedicated card is half the problem, not a feature! An issue Apple has been skimping on for years now. The Air, if you remember, was marketed at executives and other pros who don't need grunt. The MBP is meant to have grunt. Sure it will have that with the CPU, but not the GPU. So you will be buying a MBP 13", a machine who's graphics are four years out of date.
Now, I am sure its a great thermal feat for an Air, but not for a 13" MBP. Going "Oooh Ahhh" because its better than Intels integrated offerings is hardly a feat, try an Nvidia and AMD have dedicated mobile graphics card. Yes, Dedicated, which the 13" should be running in conjunction to the integrated. There are plenty of laptops with similar form factor that packs a dGPU, and iGPU. The fact that apples doesn't, despite its price is a travesty.

*snore*

 

[SlCKB0Y]

i was planning to get a M1 system but fear got in the way at the 11th hour so I bought a Intel MacBook Pro 2020 13”. Maybe when the M1x or m2 come out o may trade in the intel one. It will get better

Ouch. Even in the worst case scenario when using Rosetta to emulate x64 apps the M1 will trounce this machine. whilst having much better battery life. Unless you absolutely have to use a Windows app via virtualisation you've made a mistake here. Sorry

 

[Herrpod]

It's funny what a huge thread backfire this one turned out to be.

 

[Kostask]

OMG...! Low-end M1 integrated graphics not as good as a RTX 3090...!! APPLE IS DOOMED...!!!

What, Apple is DOOMED yet again? That is what 40th time in the last 10 years? Next, we'll have the stock analysts telling everybody to dump their Apple stock. Wonder if anybody will believe them.

 

[Boil]

OMG...! Low-end M1 integrated graphics not as good as a RTX 3090...!! APPLE IS DOOMED...!!!

What, Apple is DOOMED yet again? That is what 40th time in the last 10 years? Next, we'll have the stock analysts telling everybody to dump their Apple stock. Wonder if anybody will believe them.

Just waiting to hear Michael Dell tell me it is so...!

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Wait for the machines that currently have dedicated GPUs to get upgraded before you make judgements. The more powerful M1 chip for the "big boys" could easily support dedicated GPUs, just because the current M1 doesn't does not mean none ever will.

I completely agree with this. Does anyone here genuinely believe that when an M1 Mac Pro comes out it won't have an off-package dedicated GPU, whether it is produced by Apple or some other vendor?

It's less than a year since Apple redesigned and released the most upgradeable Mac Pro since the original one in 2006. That platform is designed for upgradeability and I doubt they will throw it out after one iteration like the Trash Can.

Another thing to consider, just because Apple has included integrated RAM in their architecture, there is nothing stopping them from augmenting this with external ram slots for models like the iMac and Mac Pro. They could easily take a tiered approach, feeding the CPU with the more performant integrated RAM and offloading buffers and caches to the external RAM for instance.

 

[M1 Processor]

I think the best thing about the M1 is its GPU. It’s simply outstanding PPW.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

That begs the question, why then is Apple support for games (at least on Steam and the Epic store) so abysmal then? It can't be revenue, Apple users spend for than PC users, right?

1. Whilst in countries like the US, UK, Canada, Australia etc Macs have maybe a 20% marketshare, over the rest of the world its more like 5%
2. The vast majority of Macs sold have iGPUs.
3. The Macs sold with dedicated GPUs do not have the same level of driver support from the vendors in terms of performance (Eg. AMD)
4. The OpenGL implementations on Mac have tended to lag far behind Windows and even Linux.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

I would divide 'Pro' into two categories, business class and workstation class. Apple has historically catered more for creative professionals and 'content creators' who require workstation-class machines. So the Mac Pro, iMac Pro and Macbook Pro have been seen as workstations, whilst the iMac, Air and Mac Mini are 'prosumer' machines for general home or business use.

Because Apple's Pro machines have hisorically been aimed at content creators, It's not unreasonable for people to view the new Air as a prosumer machine and the Pro as a workstation-class machine. So I understand why they're disappointed when the M1 Pro doesn't have workstation features such as multiple monitors or support for more than 16GB ram.

You're absolutely right. And for those old enough to remember one of Steve Job's first keynotes after rejoining Apple, this distinction was actually a legitimate product strategy, but I guess the waters have been muddied since then:

 

[Taz Mangus]

The M1 GPU is not mediocre.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Except for the fact that it does support multiple monitors.

I can't help but think this is an artificial software limitation.

My 2004 iBook could plug into an external display but it would only mirror, not extend the desktop. The extended desktop feature was reserved for the G4 Powerbook.

Of course some kind person released a patch to get extended desktops on the humble iBook G4:

Extended Desktop

 

[KPOM]

It's funny what a huge thread backfire this one turned out to be.

Yep. My MacBook Air scores twice as fast as the Ice Lake MacBook Pro on Metal. Not bad for a laptop that doesn't even have a fan.

 

[KPOM]

You're absolutely right. And for those old enough to remember one of Steve Job's first keynotes after rejoining Apple, this distinction was actually a legitimate product strategy, but I guess the waters have been muddied since then:

View attachment 1671744

It was a starting point. Apple's lineup had gotten so bloated that it confused the average consumer. But the approach above is also too simplistic for most markets. Apple is trying to strike a balance between consumer choice and simplicity in the lineup. I think they have struck a reasonably good balance with the Mac.

 

[wyatterp]

Ran the base MBA M1 through some games tonight - and I have to say I'm blown away for a passively cooled machine.

break break -----
Well, I was going to write this...but just as I was checking some numbers, I think the MBA is now in a thermally throttled state - everything I was playing outside of one exception ran really well. But now I'm rechecking and things have slowed down a lot with a lot of heat on the bottom. I should note I've been downloading north of 250gb of games, and constantly launching and playing across multiple titles.

Here was what I was seeing before throttling:
Almost all games base to 900P resolution except where noted - and all of these are running x86 straight from my steam library. THESE ARE NOT MAC STORE performance numbers at all - just steam library!
Batman Arkham City - essentially running 45-60 FPS
Civ VI - base bench, med settings - 23ms average
Civ VI - the gathering storm benchmark - 55ms** (before throttling it was much faster, like 35MS?)
Mad Max - basically unplayable - this one runs 30-45FPS on a dell XPS 13 wit i5 Iris Xe graphics
Desperados III - >30FPS easily
TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER 2 - 900P, high settings - battle bench was 30FPS, open world was 30FPS with some dips into mid 20s
Cities Skylines was rocking 30FPS in a lot of bigger cities too, seemed playable - after throttling more like low mid 20s at 1050P rez
XCOM 2 was rocking around 30FPS at medium settings and 900P

SO not a gaming juggernaut, but was working really well - but this throttle here after a couple hours has me thinking about the MBP...and that extra core.

 

[Boil]

You're absolutely right. And for those old enough to remember one of Steve Job's first keynotes after rejoining Apple, this distinction was actually a legitimate product strategy, but I guess the waters have been muddied since then:

View attachment 1671744

Old fart here, Pepperidge Farms remembers...

 

[Luposian]

Will it run crysis?

Isn't that always the question gamer's ask??

 

[shapesinaframe]

I have a 2012 PC with a 1050ti and it runs rings around my 2019 13” MBP.

If the M1 is that good, and has double the battery life, that’s crazy good performance For an iGPU.

 

[wyrdness]

Ran the base MBA M1 through some games tonight - and I have to say I'm blown away for a passively cooled machine.....
....
SO not a gaming juggernaut, but was working really well - but this throttle here after a couple hours has me thinking about the MBP...and that extra core.

I was wondering whether one of those laptop cooling pads underneath would help to reduce the thermal throttling on the Air.
It could be a much cheaper solution than the Pro.

 

[shapesinaframe]

You're absolutely right. And for those old enough to remember one of Steve Job's first keynotes after rejoining Apple, this distinction was actually a legitimate product strategy, but I guess the waters have been muddied since then:

View attachment 1671744

Yeah, I guess Macs have gotten so good that having a fan is considered “Pro” nowadays ?

(but seriously, that’s actually the reason I bought a MBP to replace my MB - I need active cooling where I live. Ambient air temp just gets way too hot here for those passive cooling designs to function. Without a fan they can sit idle for hours waiting for the air temp to get cool enough to run cloud syncs and other system functions, and when it is really hot the foreground applications get with with the “waiting for safe operating temperature” stick too)

 

[diamond.g]

Ran the base MBA M1 through some games tonight - and I have to say I'm blown away for a passively cooled machine.

break break -----
Well, I was going to write this...but just as I was checking some numbers, I think the MBA is now in a thermally throttled state - everything I was playing outside of one exception ran really well. But now I'm rechecking and things have slowed down a lot with a lot of heat on the bottom. I should note I've been downloading north of 250gb of games, and constantly launching and playing across multiple titles.

Here was what I was seeing before throttling:
Almost all games base to 900P resolution except where noted - and all of these are running x86 straight from my steam library. THESE ARE NOT MAC STORE performance numbers at all - just steam library!
Batman Arkham City - essentially running 45-60 FPS
Civ VI - base bench, med settings - 23ms average
Civ VI - the gathering storm benchmark - 55ms** (before throttling it was much faster, like 35MS?)
Mad Max - basically unplayable - this one runs 30-45FPS on a dell XPS 13 wit i5 Iris Xe graphics
Desperados III - >30FPS easily
TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER 2 - 900P, high settings - battle bench was 30FPS, open world was 30FPS with some dips into mid 20s
Cities Skylines was rocking 30FPS in a lot of bigger cities too, seemed playable - after throttling more like low mid 20s at 1050P rez
XCOM 2 was rocking around 30FPS at medium settings and 900P

SO not a gaming juggernaut, but was working really well - but this throttle here after a couple hours has me thinking about the MBP...and that extra core.

Does performance in Arkham City drop if you enable the Physix stuff?

 

[Ocnetgeek]

Does performance in Arkham City drop if you enable the Physix stuff?

Can you quantify a lot of heat? Was watching one of the reviewers yesterday and even after a 30 minute stress test they did observe some throttling but they said it was warm but not anywhere close what the existing Intel systems got like

 

[Marshall73]

I think the OP is missing the point of the M1 chip and its performance at its TDP, it's so far over their head it's hilarious.

 

[BarbaricCo]

INSANE! That's twice as fast as my RX 570 eGPU setup (only 41.1 FPS average on extreme preset).

Interesting . What Mac and is it on the same resolution as this test (1600x900px)?

 

[mike...]

Ummm this is a "mediocre" iGPU, is it? What the hell were you expecting? RTX 3080 performance in a 10W ultrabook chip?

 

[Marshall73]

I concur. Seriously, there is no way that an on package chip that is sharing memory with CPU cores and other cores, can have the performance of a dedicated GPU, like the 2060.

Some of you that expected the performance like Nvidia's discrete GPUs, just don't understand how computer components work.

You just described the chips in the PS5 and Xbox Series X btw. You can have that power in an APU but you need a damn big heatsink. I think what Apple have done with the MacBook Air and Pro is pretty impressive.