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sunny5

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Jun 11, 2021
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32 core Max is similar to mobile RTX 3060 for gaming which is quite disappointing.

Also there isn't any difference between Roshetta 2 and native binary for the performance btw.

At this point, M1 Max's gaming performance sucks after all.
 
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Zhang

macrumors newbie
Oct 20, 2021
13
10
As what comments said game Fps is more about Optimization you can't tell the real performance form game even is native.
 
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sunny5

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Jun 11, 2021
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As what comments said game Fps is more about Optimization you can't tell the real performance form game even is native.
Apple compared 32 cores to mobile 3080 and yet it doesn't perform well and that's the problem.
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
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Crossover gaming performance is promising while Rosetta 2 is hopeless.

 
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Gnattu

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2020
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Most Game are ported using graphic API translation library of some sort if I remembered it correctly. It is just too expensive to rewrite the game using Metal in most cases, therefore we can see some 'hacky' porting using DXVK over MoltenVK (DirectX to Vulkan to Metal) and lose tons of performance just to make DirectX API work on macOS.
 

Gnattu

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Sep 18, 2020
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Crossover gaming performance is promising while Rosetta 2 is hopeless.

This is quite interesting. Crossover is actually running over Rosetta2 for now. It seems like Crossover runs better than the 'macOS native'(for x86_64) port for some game. Perhaps because Crossover has a much better graphics API translation backend. Codewavers has spent years on this, last time I tried Crossover on my Intel Mac and it gave me much better graphics performance than the upstream wine.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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This is an optimization issue which is both good and bad. There aren’t too many really graphically intensive games with well optimized Metal ports and I’ve only heard of a couple with well optimized M1 ports (people say the upcoming BG3 game runs really well on the M1 GPU). Being a TBDR GPU means it’s less expensive in ALUs to get the same graphics output but if the graphics engine is expecting an IMR GPU it won’t take advantage of the TBDR system while being hit by its limitations.

The good news is that the hardware is indeed probably pretty good. The bad news is that to get most out of it requires an even more significant rewrite of the graphics engine than just porting to Metal which is already a stumbling block. So a lot of the potential may go unrealized in practice. Obviously mid-tier and indie games that use an off the shelf graphics engine like Unity will likely suffer less from this as the engine devs are more likely to optimize for different scenarios (that’s a selling point for them) than those building a bespoke engine meant to push a console or PC to its limits.
 

crazy dave

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Sep 9, 2010
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This is quite interesting. Crossover is actually running over Rosetta2 for now. It seems like Crossover runs better than the 'macOS native'(for x86_64) port for some game. Perhaps because Crossover has a much better graphics API translation backend. Codewavers has spent years on this, last time I tried Crossover on my Intel Mac and it gave me much better graphics performance than the upstream wine.

In general, you can fiddle with a Wine engine’s settings and optional packages through Winetricks to basically get it pretty similar to a Crossover engine. However, there are some differences and things that it does by default that standard Wine won’t do. For instance, last I checked, Crossover is using a workaround for the 32-64bit conversion needed for AS Mac that base Wine won’t touch because it’s on out-of-project compiler hack.

But yeah it’s basically that the original Mac port is so bad that running the Windows version through Wine + Rosetta is faster than running the Mac port through Rosetta.
 
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echodriver

macrumors member
Nov 10, 2020
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checking the link you posted I saw some results where it was on par with the 3060 mobile. Some were better than the 3080 mobile, and some were worse than the 3060m. Honestly I think these are pretty good results overall
Besides the GFXBench, where was it better than the 3080?

The common theme seems to be that the Max 32 core does great in some synthetic benchmarks and in some apps it is optimized for, but in other cases - in particular, in actual gaming - it falls way behind the mobile 3080 and is closer to the 3060 mobile resulting in worse perf/watt too
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
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Jun 11, 2021
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Besides the GFXBench, where was it better than the 3080?

The common theme seems to be that the Max 32 core does great in some synthetic benchmarks and in some apps it is optimized for, but in other cases - in particular, in actual gaming - it falls way behind the mobile 3080 and is closer to the 3060 mobile resulting in worse perf/watt too
That's my point. Rossetta 2 doesn't do any issues with GPU performance but CPU so it is weird.
 

echodriver

macrumors member
Nov 10, 2020
30
52
Yep. These aren't gaming machines. They are focused for productivity. For example, in Affinity Photo the M1 Max apparently edges out the W6900X.

God forbid that people expect Apple - after comparing the GPU to a RTX 3080 mobile - to actually be comparable in everything but specific cherry picked benchmarks and use cases. They might not be gaming machines, but even Nvidia and AMD workstation GPUs can do some gaming

Who cares?
People who spend $3000+ on a laptop where Apple is promising RTX 3080 mobile performance expecting their GPU to actually deliver that in more than a few synthetic benchmarks and a couple specific apps? Such as games, which is why a lot of people get an RTX 3080 mobile?

Funny thing is, once you start talking about the GPU falling to RTX 3060 mobile performance, the entire perf/watt argument goes out the window since it actually draws more power than the 3060 mobile
 

jasoncarle

Suspended
Jan 13, 2006
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Minnesota
God forbid that people expect Apple - after comparing the GPU to a RTX 3080 mobile - to actually be comparable in everything but specific cherry picked benchmarks and use cases. They might not be gaming machines, but even Nvidia and AMD workstation GPUs can do some gaming


People who spend $3000+ on a laptop where Apple is promising RTX 3080 mobile performance expecting their GPU to actually deliver that in more than a few synthetic benchmarks and a couple specific apps? Such as games, which is why a lot of people get an RTX 3080 mobile?

Funny thing is, once you start talking about the GPU falling to RTX 3060 mobile performance, the entire perf/watt argument goes out the window since it actually draws more power than the 3060 mobile

Why buy a Mac at all if you want to game? We all know that a windows machine is better at it than a Mac laptop with a new ARM chip will be.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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God forbid that people expect Apple - after comparing the GPU to a RTX 3080 mobile - to actually be comparable in everything but specific cherry picked benchmarks and use cases. They might not be gaming machines, but even Nvidia and AMD workstation GPUs can do some gaming


People who spend $3000+ on a laptop where Apple is promising RTX 3080 mobile performance expecting their GPU to actually deliver that in more than a few synthetic benchmarks and a couple specific apps? Such as games, which is why a lot of people get an RTX 3080 mobile?

Funny thing is, once you start talking about the GPU falling to RTX 3060 mobile performance, the entire perf/watt argument goes out the window since it actually draws more power than the 3060 mobile

There aren’t going to be many games optimized for a GPU that doesn’t exist. And these didn’t in the Mac until recently. And this is especially true if that GPU is architecturally very different from the AMD and Nvidia GPUs the game was designed to run on - API notwithstanding (and some of these aren’t metal or known to be crap ports to the metal API). Apple compared it to a mobile 3080 because that is what it can be like if a game is actually optimized for it.

To use an analogy: all the PC gamers gnashing their teeth at their expensive, supposedly far more powerful than a console hardware but unable to run some of those popular console ports very well (or at all) because the port did the bare minimum to optimize the game for PC. In this case, it’s even worse because most of the tested games were released before the shiny new hardware even came out. So naturally *can’t be optimized for it*.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
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Jun 11, 2021
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Yep. These aren't gaming machines. They are focused for productivity. For example, in Affinity Photo the M1 Max apparently edges out the W6900X.
That's such a bad excuse and it won't gonna work that way anymore. Mobile RTX 3080 is also being used for workstation and productivity. How is it even different? Gaming is a huge industry which is way bigger than Hollywood. What's the point of ignoring gaming? Gaming is not good just because Mac isn't for gaming such a mediocre answer. Both Nvidia and AMD make GPUs for both gaming and productivity and x86 itself also do. Why people keep claiming that Mac can only do productivity while Windows can do both? This is something that I can not understand.
 
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echodriver

macrumors member
Nov 10, 2020
30
52
Why buy a Mac at all if you want to game? We all know that a windows machine is better at it than a Mac laptop with a new ARM chip will be.
Who says that is all you want to do? There are plenty of applications for CUDA, for instance, that don't have to do with gaming.

At the end of the day, people can want to use a $3000+ laptop for more than just one thing. But the difference in what we're seeing here so far - awesome performance in some tasks (namely in some benchmarks and some applications), mediocre performance in other tasks (some other benchmarks, gaming) - is what's a big hangup.
Sigh … there aren’t going to be many games optimized for a GPU that doesn’t exist. And these didn’t in the Mac until recently. Apple compared it to a mobile 3080 because that is what it can be like if a game is actually optimized for it.
A few things: the M1 has been around for nearly a year now, and Metal is used plenty elsewhere. And the optimization excuse only goes so far - the games that are M1 native do perform well, but are still nowhere near 3080 Mobile levels.

And Apple compared it because it is marketing - look at their own chart where it is "near 3080 performance at less power" - what application or benchmark were they using? And how does that translate to real life usage?

To use an analogy, all the PC gamers gnashing their teeth at their expensive, supposedly far more powerful than a console hardware but unable to run some of those popular console ports very well (or at all) because the port did the bare minimum to optimize the game for PC. In this case, it’s even worse because most of the tested games were released years before the shiny new hardware came out. So naturally *can’t be optimized for it*.
Er, what? What PC games - at top end hardware - aren't able to run console ports these days?

Again, "cant be optimized" isn't the case since we've already had the M1 out for a year (which shares the same GPU core architecture), and there are games that *have* had work done to be M1 native. And even so, they're not performing as well at gaming compared to other GPUs versus the difference how they perform in other applications.

Which is fine, since these are different architectures - these Apple GPUs, I'd imagine, would be horrible at ray tracing. But I think when people hear "RTX 3080 mobile levels of performance" they're expecting something other than than RTX 3060 mobile levels of gaming performance.

And to be fair, your argument works the other way too: what if developers optimized games specifically for ONLY an RTX 3080 and used that benchmark to prove the hardware has superior perf/watt to everything else? Would you find that a bit peculiar or even misleading? Would you accept that as a valid benchmark against the M1 Max? We're talking about comparing this against GPUs in the supposedly fractured and unoptimized PC world, no?
 

echodriver

macrumors member
Nov 10, 2020
30
52
Both Nvidia and AMD make GPUs for both gaming and productivity.
I guess that's what gets to me - the M1 Max being able to reach RTX 3080 mobile levels of performance in a few use cases and benchmarks is awesome. And Apple is wise to advertise that.

At the same time though, people then call this some sort of Silicon Revolution, while also using the excuse that "well it can't game because it's not for gaming" is frustrating because somehow that same RTX 3080 mobile CAN do gaming - and CUDA and tensors for HPC and AI, ray tracing, DLSS, etc. which means applications for both gaming AND productivity.

If Macs aren't for gaming at all, that's fine. But I wish people (and Apple themselves) would stop acting like it's matching the top end GPU out there when it can only reach or exceed it in certain specific use cases and otherwise falls way behind it elsewhere (or doesn't even compete in the same feature set)
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
32 core Max is similar to mobile RTX 3060 for gaming which is quite disappointing.

Also there isn't any difference between Roshetta 2 and native binary for the performance btw.

Optimization issue or Metal API issue? Thoughts?
can you see others type of games? i mean some can run 2-3 times better than the M1
Can you test something like overwatch, world of warcraft or Dota/League of Legends? Since those performed ok under M1 macs...i think those types of games will perform like an desktop 3060 even under Rosetta
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,296
Sadly, it's probably the same inexperienced thinking by Apple management that gaming is a negative stigma that's why Mac gaming is on life support but in reality a GPU is just a compute processor so it doesn't care if the workload is gaming, video editing, AI, crypto mining, hashing, etc.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,453
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A few things: the M1 has been around for nearly a year now, and Metal is used plenty elsewhere. And the optimization excuse only goes so far - the games that are M1 native do perform well, but are still nowhere near 3080 Mobile levels.

And Apple compared it because it is marketing - look at their own chart where it is "near 3080 performance at less power" - what application or benchmark were they using? And how does that translate to real life usage?


Er, what? What PC games - at top end hardware - aren't able to run console ports these days?

Again, "cant be optimized" isn't the case since we've already had the M1 out for a year (which shares the same GPU core architecture), and there are games that *have* had work done to be M1 native. And even so, they're not performing as well at gaming compared to other GPUs versus the difference how they perform in other applications.

Which is fine, since these are different architectures - these Apple GPUs, I'd imagine, would be horrible at ray tracing. But I think when people hear "RTX 3080 mobile levels of performance" they're expecting something other than than RTX 3060 mobile levels of gaming performance.

Of course PC's should be able to play most console games, but the truth is sometimes they can't. Not because of the hardware, but because the (3rd party) developer who did the port didn't do a very good job. True we get fewer of those these days, but it still happens. It happens far more often for the Mac still.

Native =/= optimized and M1 native means "recompiled for arm64", not "graphics engine rebuilt for the M1 GPU". Only a very, very few games have done the latter.

And to be fair, your argument works the other way too: what if developers optimized games specifically for ONLY an RTX 3080 and used that benchmark to prove the hardware has superior perf/watt to everything else? Would you find that a bit peculiar or even misleading? Would you accept that as a valid benchmark against the M1 Max? We're talking about comparing this against GPUs in the supposedly fractured and unoptimized PC world, no?

That's what I'm saying *is happening now*. ;) That's current state of play. It's taking games and engines designed for an Nvidia and AMD-like GPU and then wondering why it doesn't perform as well on something very different. AMD and Nvidia IMR GPUs are ***much*** more similar to each other than either are to a TBDR GPU like what's found in the M1. 1 year is a piddling amount to get a decent number of actually optimized games. So yeah it's going to take awhile *if ever* because Macs are, for a variety of reasons, not a big priority to optimize for.
 

raknor

macrumors regular
Sep 11, 2020
136
150
Besides the GFXBench, where was it better than the 3080?
Premiere Pro Puget bench. Davinci Resolve etc etc.

The common theme seems to be that the Max 32 core does great in some synthetic benchmarks and in some apps it is optimized for, but in other cases - in particular, in actual gaming - it falls way behind the mobile 3080 and is closer to the 3060 mobile resulting in worse perf/watt too
So? Games aren't optimized for it.. it's not the GPU HW's fault.

If RTX 3080 is so great why does it perform worse in productivity Apps? Is it only good for gaming?

In case you forgot these are Pro machines.. not gaming laptops. They seem to do extremely well for that market.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,453
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Sadly, it's probably the same inexperienced thinking by Apple management that gaming is a negative stigma that's why Mac gaming is on life support but in reality a GPU is just a compute processor so it doesn't care if the workload is gaming, video editing, AI, crypto mining, hashing, etc.

A GPU is not just a compute engine. Each workload stresses the GPU in different ways (broadly: memory, compute, and rasterization - though these are obviously not completely orthogonal) and GPUs can be optimized to be good at some and worse than others. Apple's GPU design trades absolute compute performance for greater memory efficiency and rasterization performance in graphical scenarios. It's a tradeoff. It will be better at some things and worse at others as a result.
 
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Mayo86

macrumors regular
Nov 21, 2016
105
304
Canada
I don’t believe you can say the M1 Max is terrible for gaming. I think the correct phrasing would be, the games are not optimized to take advantage of the new technology like some productivity software has been. The potential for the M1 Max to outperform the lower wattage RTX 3080 is clearly there.

But the caveat is two-fold: 1. The games have not been updated to take advantage of the SoC, and older games will most likely not be retro-optimized unless they are still generating the game company profits, and 2. Gaming on the Mac has always been a touchy subject as there is a general lack of support for AAA gaming from the PC realm to translate over to macOS.

From what I am personally seeing given those 2 caveats, the performance is huge all things aside. RTX 3060, 3070, 3080, whatever. It can play games, albeit with going through hoops. Will this lead developers to consider the Mac market for gaming? Probably not right away. Apple Silicon is still in its infancy, and the number of people opting to purchase one is not yet sufficient enough for developers to spend resources on game development for the Mac. Yet.
 
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