M1 Virtualization: UTM vs Parallels?

[thedocbwarren]

You can literally go and boot a third party kernel on an M1 machine, it’s officially supported and documented. That’s not the problem. The problem is supporting all the custom hardware. Even if Apple were to share their GPU etc. documentation with MS (which I doubt), it would take a significant effort to write and support production ready drivers. Why would either Apple or MS spend resources on that? GPU makers write drivers because drivers sell their products. Apple does care about you running other OS natively. MS won’t make enough money from Apple Silicon to justify spending $$$ on official support.

Now, virtualization is a much more straightforward path. It’s infinitely easier to write and support a DIrectX to Metal wrapper than to write a full driver stack. And there is enough money in it for someone like Parallels to take the job.

I've not heard anything about officially supported. Doesn't mean it's true, but I don't think that's true. Maybe someone did this using a usb stick (as I understand) but that's not officially supported by Apple.

Anyway, I agree with you they have no incentive to share with MS for native support. It's not important to Apple to have a thrid party OS optimized on the system, (nor should it.) Most vendors care less about booting Linux on their hardware unless it's their goal (fe. System 76 or -some- Dell.)

 

[leman]

I've not heard anything about officially supported. Doesn't mean it's true, but I don't think that's true. Maybe someone did this using a usb stick (as I understand) but that's not officially supported by Apple.

I was not speculating. MacOS 11.2 added the kmutil configure-boot subcommand which is an official, 100% legit way to boot a custom kernel on Apple Silicon Macs. Check out the man page.

 

[thedocbwarren]

I was not speculating. MacOS 11.2 added the kmutil configure-boot subcommand which is an official, 100% legit way to boot a custom kernel on Apple Silicon Macs. Check out the man page.

Neat! I will. Sounds like they were considering you may need external OSes. Question is will there be drivers for the hardware? But Linux community is working on something so maybe the Linux kernel gets updated to boot externally. I still believe they will not allow installing another OS on the drive unless they work directly with the vendor.

 

[leman]

Neat! I will. Sounds like they were considering you may need external OSes.

Not really. This is most likely intended to boot old versions of macOS, but you can use it to boot anything else as well. And to be perfectly clear: this is not a user-friendly method either.

Question is will there be drivers for the hardware?

Officially from Apple? Forget about it. Reverse engineering? Some proof of concept maybe but nothing really usable. No matter how competent the Linux community is, the task is just too complex and too resource-consuming. I am not aware of any similar enterprise that was successful, even for much more popular and better understood GPUs.

But Linux community is working on something so maybe the Linux kernel gets updated to boot externally.

Linux is already bootable on M1.

I still believe they will not allow installing another OS on the drive unless they work directly with the vendor.

I don't see how Apple can prohibit anything here. You can partition your drive and use the space however you want. But I agree that there won't be a user-friendly solution.

 

[Leon1das]

You can get the Windows 10 ARM .iso file from Microsoft's Insider Preview page. You need to be signed in for that, too. Also, once you've activated it, you can drop out of the Insider Preview Fast Track and just wait for whatever the next stable update would be. Which might be a while? Honestly not sure.

You can sign up for the Parallel's Tech Preview Here.

As for any specific x86_x64 apps, I'm really just sticking with Citrix & some preinstalled apps along with an internal web app we use for Work. I've tried a few others like CCleaner and Sony Acid Pro and although those install, they do not open. Who knows if that's Windows' fault or the developer's fault, both.. But for what I Need it to do, it does just fine. Better, in fact than my other VM of Windows 10 Pro from my old 2015 MBP, other than some music software I've just replaced on my Mac.

Wait what? You can install ISO under Parallels and step out of Insider versions?

The reason I stopped using it (VXHD) is I hated constant reminders that my evaluation copy will expire. (BTW I had licensed version)..

Please tell me I was wrong...

 

[gank41]

Wait what? You can install ISO under Parallels and step out of Insider versions?

The reason I stopped using it (VXHD) is I hated constant reminders that my evaluation copy will expire. (BTW I had licensed version)..

Please tell me I was wrong...

I'm not sure why you'd see evaluation copy will expire, I've never seen that. I am still running the Insider Preview versions, but I do have the option to go to one channel lower (not regular channel but not extreme beta channel).

 

[Leon1das]

I'm not sure why you'd see evaluation copy will expire, I've never seen that. I am still running the Insider Preview versions, but I do have the option to go to one channel lower (not regular channel but not extreme beta channel).

Here is my need:

Install Win10 (WoA) via Parallels.
Enter my activation key - and have the version without watermark in lower right corner on the screen that says:

Are you saying that you dont have this?

I stopped Windows Update - but at certain point you have to allow it on Insider Preview - or they will stop working.
I saw no option to control the Win Updates (despite Pro version) - so thats why I stopped using WoA.

Finally - for me only VHDX image worked. I tried to install regular WoA ISO (pre 20231 build) on Parallels - but it gives error on booting.

 

[gank41]

Here is my need:

Install Win10 (WoA) via Parallels.
Enter my activation key - and have the version without watermark in lower right corner on the screen that says:

View attachment 1745621

Are you saying that you dont have this?

I stopped Windows Update - but at certain point you have to allow it on Insider Preview - or they will stop working.
I saw no control this updates - so thats why I stopped using WoA.

Finally - for me only VHDX image worked. I tried to install regular WoA ISO (pre 20231 build) on Parallels - but it gives error on booting.

Oh yeah, I still have the watermark because I'm still on a pre-release version. Once it's licensed, then you have the ability to stop the fast beta channel and move to one of the slower beta channels. I'm staying on the slow insider ring just because all of this is still working in beta anyway. I'd rather utilize a newer build of Windows.

 

[bobcomer]

Here is my need:

Install Win10 (WoA) via Parallels.
Enter my activation key - and have the version without watermark in lower right corner on the screen that says:

View attachment 1745621

Are you saying that you dont have this?

I stopped Windows Update - but at certain point you have to allow it on Insider Preview - or they will stop working.
I saw no option to control the Win Updates (despite Pro version) - so thats why I stopped using WoA.

Finally - for me only VHDX image worked. I tried to install regular WoA ISO (pre 20231 build) on Parallels - but it gives error on booting.

You can activate it with a Win10 Pro key, and the eval copy message should go away, but all the builds we get for WOA have an expire date, even if you turn off insider builds.

 

[jake_the_tester]

Words in short. I have used qemu to simulate x86 virtual linux OS on my Apple M1 Macbook Pro.
Ubuntu 18.04 x86_64 xfce4. It was not very fast but it works. It has graphical glitches. And gcc compiler works in the virtual machine started by qemu. I gave 8 cores and 4GB of ram to the Virtual Machine, and its performance of compiling codes is about 25% of an Intel i7 8700K desktop.

 

[kundanno]

Check out forum.parallels.com - they have one for the M1 tech preview channel. I have been using Parallels Desktop on my M1 MBA. I have both Windows and Ubuntu running. The cool thing is Parallels tools works on Windows so file sharing, graphics, Networking etc. work well. And the latest build of Windows Insider is very stable. The store works well so you can download and run apps like Checkpoint capsule. Overall very happy. I have almost replaced my intel MBP and Dell laptops with a single MBA (Have not used them for 4 months).

 

[bobcomer]

I've only used UTM in the x86 emulating role, and it does work for the most part, but I never got networking to work. (I ran Win10 and WinXP) Very slow, no special drivers included for QEMU to make it any faster. (running on an M1 MBA)

I got networking working on UTM, and there are special drivers available for Windows VMs.

For networking, it only uses a rudimentary NAT networking that doesn't support any layer 2 stuff. That means no VPN's, no bridged networking to allow internal LAN access, and slow. It's supposed to allow some port forwarding into the VM from the host, but I haven't done anything with that. But if all you need from networking is on the internet, it's a workable solution.

 

[Alex-Microsmeta]

Hi all,

So I have my new M1 MacBook Air and I’m looking to virtualize Windows and stop carrying around two laptops, now that Windows on ARM supports x64 emulation (albeit horribly, but support nonetheless).

Can anyone that has tried both the new Parallels M1 Preview and UTM (essentially QEMU) tell me what, if any, performance differences I can expect running Windows on ARM? Parallels is obviously backed up by a full-time dev team, however UTM (being QEMU in a shiny skin) supports x86_64 emulation (which would be useful for running legacy versions of Windows separate from Windows on ARM) so I’m leaning towards the latter.

Thanks!

I have used both to play against chess engines. The speed (K nodes / s) benchmark shows very similar results, but the interface on Parallels M1 is much smoother and on Windows 10 ARM64 the mouse often disappears (it goes under the window opened in Windows 10) and I must move it out from the virtual machine, then re-enter. Very boring, searching a fix!

 

[Sysmet]

I'm using both Crossover and latest Parallels. Crossover may work great for some apps, even more fast and efficient than running a whole system with Parallels. Try beta.

Parallels on ARM has slow UI comparing to x86 virtualization. Don't know why nobody mentions this. Maybe I'm just a spoiled user, but I can't work in Windows like I did with x86 because of "non-smooth" UI.

 

[thedocbwarren]

I'm using both Crossover and latest Parallels. Crossover may work great for some apps, even more fast and efficient than running a whole system with Parallels. Try beta.

Parallels on ARM has slow UI comparing to x86 virtualization. Don't know why nobody mentions this. Maybe I'm just a spoiled user, but I can't work in Windows like I did with x86 because of "non-smooth" UI.

Don't have your experience. I can actually game with similar performance in Parallels. Crossover is hit or miss for me, when it works it's ok, mostly it doesn't work or it's impossible to use.

 

[bobcomer]

Don't have your experience. I can actually game with similar performance in Parallels. Crossover is hit or miss for me, when it works it's ok, mostly it doesn't work or it's impossible to use.

What type of M1? (MBP, Mini, MBA?) I know with my Air, there's no way I'd even try gaming since WOA is not that fast.

 

[thedocbwarren]

What type of M1? (MBP, Mini, MBA?) I know with my Air, there's no way I'd even try gaming since WOA is not that fast.

MacBook Pro 13

 

[bobcomer]

MacBook Pro 13

Makes sense. I think the no cooling of the MBA tends to throttle when running parallels/WOA. At least mine does, so it's not very smooth...

 

[thedocbwarren]

Makes sense. I think the no cooling of the MBA tends to throttle when running parallels/WOA. At least mine does, so it's not very smooth...

That's strange. Are you using the dev builds? I was using the Beta and fgound it fine but not the fastest. Dev builds seem to work well but, of course, things can act weird here and there.

 

[bobcomer]

That's strange. Are you using the dev builds?

Yep.

 

[coolbreeze2]

I have been running Windows 10 on ARM Insider Preview via Parallels Desktop 16 for Mac Pro Edition on my MBAir M1 base model with no problems for several weeks now.

 

[bobcomer]

I have been running Windows 10 on ARM Insider Preview via Parallels Desktop 16 for Mac Pro Edition on my MBAir M1 base model with no problems for several weeks now.

Perhaps telling us what VM settings you are using, the type of apps your running, and describing the host a bit will give us a clue as to how to optimize our M1/VM machines..

 

[gank41]

Perhaps telling us what VM settings you are using, the type of apps your running, and describing the host a bit will give us a clue as to how to optimize our M1/VM machines..

I've also had almost zero issues with Windows in a VM since day 1 of the Parallels Tech Preview. I'm currently running Parallels Version 16.5.0 (Build 50692) and Windows 10 ARM (OS Build 21382.1000) and I mainly use two older applications, Acid Pro v8 (released in 2018, installed from CD-ROM) and also Abelton Live 10 (also released in 2018, installed x64 version from their site). I do some testing with Citrix and different browsers (Edge, Chrome, Firefox) for work. I've got my work's Office365 account setup.

I initially installed Acid Pro just to see if it'd install. I figured with no Bootcamp, I'd just have to forget about some of the projects I'd been working on. But now being able to go back and try finishing some older work is just awesome. No delays or crashes. Much better performance, actually, than having Windows 10 installed via Bootcamp on my older 2015 MBP w/ 16GB of RAM. I don't do much with Abelton Live at the moment, but I am able to use a Blue Yeti Pro mic and pass that thru my Mac via a USB-A to USB-C adapter. Seemed to work without issue, but again didn't do much else but test it.

As far as any configurations go, I've got Windows 10 on ARM set with 4 Processors and 4GB of RAM, and "System Memory" is used for the GPU. Honestly, nothing special here. This is all running on an M1 MBP 16GB/2TB. I do have a very LARGE collection of older VM's with various older OS's including Windows NT and Windows ME (again, for .. "testing".. yeah). I'm fairly certain I'll never be able to use any of these anymore. And I guess that's alright. I'd love to get Windows 2000 working again so I can install my older version of Space Quest. But not seeing that happening. I'll miss Zork, too.

 

[bobcomer]

As far as any configurations go, I've got Windows 10 on ARM set with 4 Processors and 4GB of RAM, and "System Memory" is used for the GPU. Honestly, nothing special here. This is all running on an M1 MBP 16GB/2TB.

Interesting, thanks. I'll check my settings when I get home to see if I have something different. (My machine isn't with me right now) I think I may have more RAM allocated, but that's about it for the difference. Not sure about the system memory for the GPU.

Interesting workload you have and nothing like mine, but I suspect it should be just as performance critical as mine. You do have a Pro, which might be some of the difference. I bought the air because it was just speculation on my part and it was cheaper than the Pro, and didn't have the touch bar, but I really should have got a Pro given what I want to do with it. (My Air is 16G/1TB)

I really expect we will have real x86 emulation eventually so we can run our old VMs, but we may have to wait for the M2. (A higher powered M2 Mini would be a pretty nice machine.) My main Mac is an Intel Mini. (64G/2TB)

fwiw, I tried installing Windows 2000 in a UTM VM but couldn't get it to work, but Win2000 is light enough that the performance might be decent, even on my Air.

 

[thedocbwarren]

Interesting, thanks. I'll check my settings when I get home to see if I have something different. (My machine isn't with me right now) I think I may have more RAM allocated, but that's about it for the difference. Not sure about the system memory for the GPU.

Interesting workload you have and nothing like mine, but I suspect it should be just as performance critical as mine. You do have a Pro, which might be some of the difference. I bought the air because it was just speculation on my part and it was cheaper than the Pro, and didn't have the touch bar, but I really should have got a Pro given what I want to do with it. (My Air is 16G/1TB)

I really expect we will have real x86 emulation eventually so we can run our old VMs, but we may have to wait for the M2. (A higher powered M2 Mini would be a pretty nice machine.) My main Mac is an Intel Mini. (64G/2TB)

fwiw, I tried installing Windows 2000 in a UTM VM but couldn't get it to work, but Win2000 is light enough that the performance might be decent, even on my Air.

Mine is set to 8GB and System memory for GPU. I don't have anything else special on the config. Using latest dev build of Insider. It's also installed locally vs an external drive (sometime did this in the past.) I did set configure for to "Games Only" if that means anything.