M4 Pro Unbinned is good, but I'm keeping my M1 Max MBP

[jmckenzie]

Pedantry exception: there isn't an unbinned part. Binning is the process of separating a production run of parts meant to be the same into groups based on their post production results. Either all parts are binned into multiple part numbers, or all parts are unbinned and have the same part number. In this case they're all binned.

Metapedantry: this is just how language works. Meaning 1 of "binned" might mean "sorted into a bin," but meaning 2, "inferior component separated out from the main production run" is now well established.

Technically, this is an example of degenerative semantic drift, the same way in which "silly" used to mean "happy." There was likely a period of time when both meanings coexisted, but generally a pejorative usage drives out a neutral usage. I think meaning 2 is already top of mind for most of us at this point.

 

[Mactech20]

I’m using a 2019 Macbook Pro. It’s the 2.4GHz i9 model with 32GB RAM, 8GB Radeon 5500m, and a 1TB SSD. I chose the worst possible time to spend £3500 on a laptop, months before the switch to Apple Silicon, but it has served me well. It can do most things but, increasingly, I am unable to use certain software features. The writing is on the wall.

I can’t say I have ever loved this machine. The fans ramp up with slightest pressure. I am about to order a 14” M4 Pro MacBook Pro to replace it. Apparently, the 12-core version is the quietest. I’ll go for that. After 5 years of constant fan noise, I want something less intrusive. I hope I am not disappointed. From now on, I’ll be going mid-range and upgrading more frequently.

Even on the Max you won't hear the fan noise. The switch from intel to apple silicon is a dream experience imo.

 

[FCDP]

I’m using a 2019 Macbook Pro. It’s the 2.4GHz i9 model with 32GB RAM, 8GB Radeon 5500m, and a 1TB SSD. I chose the worst possible time to spend £3500 on a laptop, months before the switch to Apple Silicon, but it has served me well. It can do most things but, increasingly, I am unable to use certain software features. The writing is on the wall.

I can’t say I have ever loved this machine. The fans ramp up with slightest pressure. I am about to order a 14” M4 Pro MacBook Pro to replace it. Apparently, the 12-core version is the quietest. I’ll go for that. After 5 years of constant fan noise, I want something less intrusive. I hope I am not disappointed. From now on, I’ll be going mid-range and upgrading more frequently.

This was my exact experience. I purchased a 2019 MacBook Pro in February 2020 equipped with an i7, 32GB of RAM, an 8GB Radeon Pro 5500M, and 1TB of storage. The timing was impeccable... Despite its functionality, I found the experience less than enjoyable due to excessive heat, noise, and rapid battery drain, limiting its usefulness away from a charger.

I was deciding between an M4 Pro with 14/20 cores, 48GB of RAM and 2TB of storage, and an M4 Max with 14/32 cores, 36GB of RAM and 1TB of storage for about the same price. The doubled storage is appealing but not essential. I would think I need at least 32GB of RAM to align with my previous setup.

I've opted to test the M4 Pro, and so far, it's using about 33GB of RAM at 12% memory pressure while running Unity, Xcode, Edge, and UVC, which represents my typical workload. As a Unity developer planning to explore Unreal Engine soon, I'm torn between the M4 Pro's 48GB and the M4 Max's 36GB. I'm interested in hearing from others with similar usage scenarios and are considering these options.

 

[Analog Kid]

In other words, M4 Pro is not a defective chip? and what is the probability when you buy a binned chip but with a smaller number of cores (since they are binned but still on the board) that the remaining cores will also work well ? or some other core won't work?

No, the M4 Pro is not a defective chip. No variant of it is defective. A wafer is a very big thing compared to the size of the circuitry on it and there's a lot of variation across it. The process of binning can serve two purposes-- compensate for random manufacturing imperfections by turning off the affected functionality (anything from disabling a GPU to disabling a flash chip storage cell) and by selecting the best parts in the run (the ones that are particularly low power, or that can be clocked faster). Apple doesn't seem to be doing much of the later.

This allows the manufacturer to produce components with higher capabilities while also keeping their production yield up and costs down. It means they can make parts that wouldn't be economical otherwise-- the yield would probably be too low to only make the 14/20 variants.

Every part is fully tested to the specs listed before being put on a board. This isn't a sign of an unreliable manufacturing process, it's just making the most of what physics gives to us.

A classic analog example of this is resistors. It's really hard to make precise resistors (or capacitors, or inductors) and for a lot of applications you don't need that precision. Most times you just need ±10% because it's just there to pull a floating signal high or low. Sometimes though, you need something very precise for a current sensor or filter and you want a 1% resistor. The way companies would manufacture them when the manufacturing process is only accurate to 10% is to build a bunch of resistors that vary randomly between ±10%, test them, and then set aside (bin) the ones that are within 1% of the target value (and typically do the same for 5% parts). That let them affordably make a part that wasn't mass producible. It also meant that if you were buying 10% resistors, they were most likely not normally distributed in value, because the middle of the range had been set aside.

 

[honcho]

Even on the Max you won't hear the fan noise. The switch from intel to apple silicon is a dream experience imo.

Wow. I can’t wait. As I’m going From 16” to 14”, I was avoiding the Max. I’m still traumatised by the hairdryer sound of the i9.

This was my exact experience. I purchased a 2019 MacBook Pro in February 2020 equipped with an i7, 32GB of RAM, an 8GB Radeon Pro 5500M, and 1TB of storage. The timing was impeccable... Despite its functionality, I found the experience less than enjoyable due to excessive heat, noise, and rapid battery drain, limiting its usefulness away from a charger.

I was deciding between an M4 Pro with 14/20 cores, 48GB of RAM and 2TB of storage, and an M4 Max with 14/32 cores, 36GB of RAM and 1TB of storage for about the same price. The doubled storage is appealing but not essential. I would think I need at least 32GB of RAM to align with my previous setup.

I've opted to test the M4 Pro, and so far, it's using about 33GB of RAM at 12% memory pressure while running Unity, Xcode, Edge, and UVC, which represents my typical workload. As a Unity developer planning to explore Unreal Engine soon, I'm torn between the M4 Pro's 48GB and the M4 Max's 36GB. I'm interested in hearing from others with similar usage scenarios and are considering these options.

February? Ooof. I feel your pain. My battery is apparently in good condition according to Battery Health, but I can’t go more than three hours without plugging it in. Horrible.

I’m in the same situation as you re. RAM, although, as a developer, your need will be greater than mine. Ideally, I would like 32Gb, but if I go M4 Pro, it’s either 24GB or 48GB. I’m probably gonna go 24GB and up my core count, some of the audio software I use relies on GPU acceleration.

 

[Analog Kid]

Metapedantry: this is just how language works. Meaning 1 of "binned" might mean "sorted into a bin," but meaning 2, "inferior component separated out from the main production run" is now well established.

Technically, this is an example of degenerative semantic drift, the same way in which "silly" used to mean "happy." There was likely a period of time when both meanings coexisted, but generally a pejorative usage drives out a neutral usage. I think meaning 2 is already top of mind for most of us at this point.

You're going to have to point me to a place where this use of "unbinned" is well established. I just did some searching on the web and don't see any established use. The fact that there are words that have drifted in meaning doesn't mean we should stop caring what words mean.

Binning can mean "pull aside the best ones"-- the 1% resistors, the lowest power or highest clock parts-- or pull aside the "inferior components". To say binning (sorting into bins) is used to separate different parts from a run based on a range of specifications is consistent, but saying that one particular bin is somehow the "unbinned part" is wrong and contradcitory. Without consistent meaning, words are useless for communication. It's worth the effort to teach and educate to hold a proper definition against the drift of time.

 

[m1maverick]

And the M4 series will save a lot more time than just a few seconds. On longer compiles, video, and image work people will save hours on more complex tasks.

There will always be tasks for which the most computing power pays dividends. I would suggest anyone with such requirements utilize a desktop whenever possible.

 

[chars1ub0w]

Geez, that's a lot of stress on a laptop, a M4 Ultra Studio might be a better use case for what you're doing.

M4 Ultra would be very nice. I guess that's a year away. Meanwhile, I use two laptops, maybe two are the same price as one M4 Ultra?, and keep one running compute jobs for me 24/7.

 

[Zirochka]

No, the M4 Pro is not a defective chip. No variant of it is defective. A wafer is a very big thing compared to the size of the circuitry on it and there's a lot of variation across it. The process of binning can serve two purposes-- compensate for random manufacturing imperfections by turning off the affected functionality (anything from disabling a GPU to disabling a flash chip storage cell) and by selecting the best parts in the run (the ones that are particularly low power, or that can be clocked faster). Apple doesn't seem to be doing much of the later.

This allows the manufacturer to produce components with higher capabilities while also keeping their production yield up and costs down. It means they can make parts that wouldn't be economical otherwise-- the yield would probably be too low to only make the 14/20 variants.

Every part is fully tested to the specs listed before being put on a board. This isn't a sign of an unreliable manufacturing process, it's just making the most of what physics gives to us.

A classic analog example of this is resistors. It's really hard to make precise resistors (or capacitors, or inductors) and for a lot of applications you don't need that precision. Most times you just need ±10% because it's just there to pull a floating signal high or low. Sometimes though, you need something very precise for a current sensor or filter and you want a 1% resistor. The way companies would manufacture them when the manufacturing process is only accurate to 10% is to build a bunch of resistors that vary randomly between ±10%, test them, and then set aside (bin) the ones that are within 1% of the target value (and typically do the same for 5% parts). That let them affordably make a part that wasn't mass producible. It also meant that if you were buying 10% resistors, they were most likely not normally distributed in value, because the middle of the range had been set aside.

Thank you

 

[jmckenzie]

You're going to have to point me to a place where this use of "unbinned" is well established. I just did some searching on the web and don't see any established use. The fact that there are words that have drifted in meaning doesn't mean we should stop caring what words mean.

Binning can mean "pull aside the best ones"-- the 1% resistors, the lowest power or highest clock parts-- or pull aside the "inferior components". To say binning (sorting into bins) is used to separate different parts from a run based on a range of specifications is consistent, but saying that one particular bin is somehow the "unbinned part" is wrong and contradcitory. Without consistent meaning, words are useless for communication. It's worth the effort to teach and educate to hold a proper definition against the drift of time.

I don't think "unbinned" is well established. I said "binned" was well established.

I went over to some Mac subreddits to see what hits I got on this, and surprisingly found a thread where people seem to be saying that in PC land, "binned" is often used to mean "the best processors in a batch," whereas in the Mac subreddits, it's more common for this to mean "sub-optimal processors from a batch," as we have seen Apple do with Apple Silicon.

But it is only natural that Mac "binned" would mean the opposite of PC "binned," because Apple does not set aside a few processors that somehow came out of the fab with extra cores, and which could be said to be "binned" in this positive PC land sense. I'm assuming in PC land superior "binned" chips are ones that have proven to be robust enough to overclock. So now we know how this meaning drift happened, and that it happened for useful reasons.

So not only does meaning drift over time, it drifts from community to community. And so when I said "binned" was well established, you can pretty much assume I meant "within the Mac forum community" because – here we are.

I say all this as someone who is pretty precise with my words; I am in no way arguing that clear, deep, meaningful definitions don't or shouldn't exist. But when you use the word "proper" — a "proper definition" of "binned" would of course be critical if we were all sitting around having this conversation at a chip fabrication facility. That is the kind of context in which some linguistic prescriptivism is useful and even necessary.

 

[Analog Kid]

I don't think "unbinned" is well established. I said "binned" was well established.

That was an odd response then to my statement that no parts are "unbinned".

I went over to some Mac subreddits to see what hits I got on this, and surprisingly found a thread where people seem to be saying that in PC land, "binned" is often used to mean "the best processors in a batch," whereas in the Mac subreddits, it's more common for this to mean "sub-optimal processors from a batch," as we have seen Apple do with Apple Silicon.

As I said, binning is the process of sorting based on the post production results. You can select parts with more favorable results and recover parts with less favorable results.

But it is only natural that Mac "binned" would mean the opposite of PC "binned," because Apple does not set aside a few processors that somehow came out of the fab with extra cores, and which could be said to be "binned" in this positive PC land sense. I'm assuming in PC land superior "binned" chips are ones that have proven to be robust enough to overclock. So now we know how this meaning drift happened, and that it happened for useful reasons.

It's not useful at all. Two very close communities assigning opposite meanings of the same word is ludicrous. "My unbinned M4 Pro is faster than your binned i9"? That's not semantic drift, that's just confusion born of ignorance. Rather than codifying this confusion by trying to apply some academic inevitability to it, it's much better to explain to people what the words they're hearing mean.

So not only does meaning drift over time, it drifts from community to community. And so when I said "binned" was well established, you can pretty much assume I meant "within the Mac forum community" because – here we are.

I say all this as someone who is pretty precise with my words; I am in no way arguing that clear, deep, meaningful definitions don't or shouldn't exist. But when you use the word "proper" — a "proper definition" of "binned" would of course be critical if we were all sitting around having this conversation at a chip fabrication facility. That is the kind of context in which some linguistic prescriptivism is useful and even necessary.

You're inducing semantic drift in the concept of semantic drift itself. Semantic drift is something that happens to a language over hundreds of years. Your example of "silly" originally meaning "happy" occurred as the word began in Proto-German (sæligas) to German to Middle English to English. Over that time it evolved from meaning "happy or blessed", to "innocent" to "deserving compassion" to "pitiable" to "feeble-minded".

Other words change meaning quickly and quirkily and temporarily, we call that slang. Calling people "cats", and the like. This isn't that either.

This is just people using perfectly good words the wrong way. Yes, it is a detail of the manufacturing to sale process but that's got nothing to do with it any more than any other word people aren't familiar with. It's a new word for people, no different than polar vortex or spanx, and they try to figure it out from context and get it wrong. So help them get it right. There's no problem with people getting new words and concepts wrong, but there's definitely problems with deciding every misuse is now a new numbered definition in the dictionary.

Let's not turn every word into ass.

 

[RumorConsumer]

Then instead of writing long walls of offtopic text, lets return to the topic.

As owner of the 16" binned M1 Max with 32GB/2TB I have a tough time deciding between...
- 16" with M4 Pro 20C / 48GB / 2TB (buying it once the M5 gen is out)
- 16" with M4 Max 32C / 36GB / 2TB (buying it once the M5 gen is out)
- 16" with M3 Max 30C / 36GB / 2TB (buying it now or soon)

My 24C M1 Max strikes a nice balance of performance, heat/fans and battery life and I would always get a 16" body again. But for stable diffusion and especially 3D traks the M1 generation didn't scale well and it show. Blender score is barely 800 for the binned M1 Max, versus 2500 for the full M4 Pro, 3500 for the binned M3 Max, and 4400 for the binned M4 Max, a huge difference. My viewport performance is indeed not optimal. Using DrawThings for stable diffusion, the speed could also be faster (a SD 1.5 model with roughly 1000px needs almost a minute to render with 20 Samples). And in Resolve, applying a simple transition effect also makes the timeline fps drop a lot, and I am just editing a single stream of 4K30 h265.

So yeah, as 24C M1 Max owner, both the M4 Pro and M4 Max would be big upgrades for me. Just tough to decide.

OP here. When the time comes order it and try it out. Then decide if you want to keep it.

 

[daneoni]

If you're waiting for M5 then i wouldn't buy an M3 Mac. Speaks volumes that Apple moved away from it quickly

When ready, buy the most Mac you can afford at the time.

 

[chars1ub0w]

My computer simulation verifying my hand calculation just finished on my M1 Max. Nearly 6.5 days. Not a problem to wait, of course, as I am simultaneously working on other things.

But if I ran it on an M4 Max, maybe I'd save a couple of days. And if I parallelized the code, I would save more time, but then I have to be very careful I didn't introduce a bug and throw the value of N off a bit.

So it's probably worth going to a M4 Studio once the number of high performance cores goes up into double digits, and I can justify parallelizing things for a realistic one-shot 10x speed-up.

 

[duck apple]

I was especially surprised when I watch a Max Tech video where the M1 was at a battery health of 83% and after all the tests was at 11% whereas the M4 was at 100% battery health and had something like 23% batter remaining. The M4 is fast but saving say, 35 seconds off of a 1:45 second task isn't going to save someone much time even if the percentage is 33% faster.

Misleading statement！

1. Battery usage: 72% M3 Pro vs 77% for M4 Pro. 5 % of battery gives us more than 30% of performance boost for lots of heavy duty tests.
2. The 77% of battery consumed is, I guess, for several hours of heavy duty tests and the M4 Pro accumulated time saving may go up to 1 or 2 hours.

 

[duck apple]

I'm torn between the M4 Pro's 48GB and the M4 Max's 36GB. I'm interested in hearing from others with similar usage scenarios and are considering these options.

More RAM is definitely better than storage.

You can’t add RAM but you can add new generation of TB5 NNMe enclosure (with much better value than insanely expensive upgrade from Apple even for now a TB5 enclosure is lots more expensive than TB3/4) . The 6GB/s of read performances is indeed more than important than CPU improvement for me. This is first time an external enclosure is capable of handling extremely time critical data I/O. My biggest complaint with my M1 Max Studio is the 2GB/s ceiling speed of TB3 external disk even the NVMe a PCIe Gen4 capable of 8GB/s.