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thingstoponder

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2014
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Here is my unscientific speculation based on the presentation of A14:

A12 6.9 billion transistors, 6 CPU cores, 4 GPU cores, Geekbench 5 single core 1112, multi-core 2866, Metal 4641

A12X 10 billion transistors, 8 CPU cores, 7 GPU cores

A12Z 10 billion transistors, 8 CPU cores, 8 GPU cores, Geekbench 5 single core 1118, multi-core 4631, Metal 10337

A13 8.5 billion transistors, 6 CPU cores, 4 GPU cores

A14 11.8 billion transistors, 6 CPU cores, 4 GPU cores, 40% faster CPU than A12, 30% faster GPU than A12, Geekbench 5 single core 1557, multi-core 4012, Metal 6033

A14Z 17.1 billion transistors, 8 CPU cores, 8 GPU cores, 40% faster CPU than A12Z, 30% faster GPU than A12Z, Geekbench 5 single core 1565, multi-core 6483, Metal 13438

A14Z Mac SoC 25.8 billion transistors, 12 CPU cores, 32 GPU cores, 50% faster multi-core than A14Z, 300% faster GPU than A14Z, Geekbench 5 single core 1565, multi-core 9725, Metal 53752

That would put A14Z Mac on par with 10-core i9 in iMac 2020 and the GPU between RX 580 and RX Vega 56. :)
If the Mac chip had twice the performance cores than the iPad Pro then I think you would see more than 50 percent CPU increase. Probably more like 75%. Also I wouldn’t expect such a massive GPU on an entry level Mac SoC. Maybe a 14 inch MacBook Pro but not a 12 inch MacBook or 13 inch MacBook Air. Although if they do use the a14x for a MacBook/Air then they can start the Mac specific SoCs with much bigger GPUs.

I could see them doing a 12 core / 24-32 core for MacBook Pro 14 and 24 inch iMac and 16 core / 40-48 core for MacBook Pro 16 and 27-32 inch iMac. The iMacs would get the less efficient binned chips and would clock higher and the laptops would get the cream of the crop efficient chips and clock lower.

They could then throw either or both of those in the Mac Mini and then make a mega 400-600mm2 monstrosity for the Mac Pro and iMac Pro.

Anyways, I’m just speculating...

Apple wildly under quoted the GPU performance gains for the a12 -> a13. The number they specified at the keynote was 20%, but in reality for compute is was closer to 40% and in games and gaming benchmarks it was way more than 20% (varies from 20%-60%)

It is definite that they are underquoting the a12->a14 performance gains as well.

I wonder why they do this? Maybe they normalize for power and don’t consider gains to be gains if it comes at the expense of higher power usage. Unlike Nvidia who just flat out lies and say their new GPU is 1.9x more efficient when it reality they just massively increased the power.

We do know that the a13 in the iPhone 11 used more energy than the a12 in the XR and XS and I speculate that the a14 will use less energy than the A13 due to 5G and slightly smaller batteries. The a13 was offset with a bigger battery.
 
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thingstoponder

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2014
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1,100
Desktop/Workstation wise that probably isn't going to be as easy a reach for Apple. AMD isn't screwed up their fab process ( using the same subcontractor Apple is. ). Two years Intel will be closer to being back on track also.
Apple is far ahead of x86. The a12 has 70 percent better IPC than Skylake and less branch prediction errors to boot. They will be faster and take far less energy. The only question is how much.

The Mac Mini had finally got to the stage that it was using "desktop" processors ( although in a BGA package, but a mainstream desktop die and settings. ). If Apple wanted to backslide the Mini back into using MBP processors (and MBP ports. Dropping down to perhaps 2-4 Thunderbolt ports ). then that could come out shorter term Mini transition.

IMHO, that is probably not a good place for the Mini long term. But it is path Apple could take.

There’s no such thing as desktop processors. It’s all product segmentation. The S-series desktop SKUs in the Mac Mini are the same dies as the H-Series SKUs in the 16 inch MacBook Pro. It’s all binning.

If the Apple Silicon Mac mini blows those Intel desktop SKUs out of the water then it doesn’t matter if it’s also used in a laptop.
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
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Anchorage, AK
There’s no such thing as desktop processors. It’s all product segmentation. The S-series desktop SKUs in the Mac Mini are the same dies as the H-Series SKUs in the 16 inch MacBook Pro. It’s all binning.

If the Apple Silicon Mac mini blows those Intel desktop SKUs out of the water then it doesn’t matter if it’s also used in a laptop.

Actually, there are significant physical differences between desktop and mobile SKUs - binning only seperates processors in the same family (e.g. desktop Core i3/i5/i7). In fact, this is why Intel's big announcement of their 11th generation CPUs only addressed the mobile processors (U and Y series), omitting the desktop versions completely. Mobile processors also use different sockets than their desktop counterparts, so you can't simply drop an H-series (another mobile SKU) CPU into a desktop motherboard. For example, the Intel i7-10875H processor uses the BGA1440 socket, whereas the Intel Core i7-10700K uses the LGA1200 socket (which replaced the LGA1151 socket used in 7th-9th generation desktop boards.) The K series part utilizes a 37.5mm x 37.5mm die size, while the H series is 42mm x 28mm in size. So even if the two processors used the same socket, the mobile SKU would be physically too large for the desktop board.


 

Mayo86

macrumors regular
Nov 21, 2016
105
304
Canada
That is one part of the equation that it is fairly speedy. The other part of the equation is nothing works.

Rosetta 2, to date, does NOT support a majority of applications according to what I have seen and it is riddled with problems when it does. If you're thinking it's fine and dandy that you will just use the Mac App Store, good luck - most of the stuff there does not work either. I sincerely hope that between what I saw at a friends and the release date of the first Apple Silicon that they really strive to improve compatibility because right now it is atrocious to say the least and while what I saw was snappy when it worked.. it didn't work most of the time.
 

thingstoponder

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2014
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Actually, there are significant physical differences between desktop and mobile SKUs - binning only seperates processors in the same family (e.g. desktop Core i3/i5/i7). In fact, this is why Intel's big announcement of their 11th generation CPUs only addressed the mobile processors (U and Y series), omitting the desktop versions completely.

Yes, the U and Y series do not share dies with the desktop chips, I never claimed otherwise. The main difference is because of lower core counts and because they have higher graphics than H-Series and S-Series because its presumed machines with those chips will have dGPUs anyways. U and Y series are ultraportables which tend to just use integrated graphics so they need to be better.

Mobile processors also use different sockets than their desktop counterparts, so you can't simply drop an H-series (another mobile SKU) CPU into a desktop motherboard. For example, the Intel i7-10875H processor uses the BGA1440 socket, whereas the Intel Core i7-10700K uses the LGA1200 socket (which replaced the LGA1151 socket used in 7th-9th generation desktop boards.)

I never said they were socket compatible. They have different power requirements and chipsets for different platforms.

The K series part utilizes a 37.5mm x 37.5mm die size, while the H series is 42mm x 28mm in size. So even if the two processors used the same socket, the mobile SKU would be physically too large for the desktop board.



Thats package size, not die size. They use the same die which is what I was saying. My point was that at the silicon level there is nothing that separates a desktop chip from a laptop chip. The person I replied to implied that Apple would be regressing if they went from “desktop” intel chips to “mobile” Apple Silicon chips. My point is that it is a meaningless distinction and all that matters is performance. If a “laptop” Apple chip outperforms the “desktop” chip at a fraction of the power then what difference does it make?
 

Acidsplat

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2011
372
953
That is one part of the equation that it is fairly speedy. The other part of the equation is nothing works.

Rosetta 2, to date, does NOT support a majority of applications according to what I have seen and it is riddled with problems when it does. If you're thinking it's fine and dandy that you will just use the Mac App Store, good luck - most of the stuff there does not work either. I sincerely hope that between what I saw at a friends and the release date of the first Apple Silicon that they really strive to improve compatibility because right now it is atrocious to say the least and while what I saw was snappy when it worked.. it didn't work most of the time.
Rosetta 2 supports quite a bit of software, based off of what I've been able to run on my DTK.

There is a compatibility issue in the A12Z processor used in the DTK, in which it doesn't support 4KB page sizes like Intel processors in Intel Macs do. The A12Z instead uses 16KB. It's the reason Chrome was broken until one of the very latest Canary builds.

Apple confirmed that Apple Silicon Macs will support 4KB page sizes, which may help mitigate some issues. They may also introduce better translation features in the future Apple Silicon CPU that may help Rosetta 2 out more.
 

Mayo86

macrumors regular
Nov 21, 2016
105
304
Canada
What have you seen?

I’ve seen a fair bit to be honest. And from what I have seen, it does not look promising. Keep in mind this is beta and on a DTK.


Rosetta 2 supports quite a bit of software, based off of what I've been able to run on my DTK.

There is a compatibility issue in the A12Z processor used in the DTK, in which it doesn't support 4KB page sizes like Intel processors in Intel Macs do. The A12Z instead uses 16KB. It's the reason Chrome was broken until one of the very latest Canary builds.

Apple confirmed that Apple Silicon Macs will support 4KB page sizes, which may help mitigate some issues. They may also introduce better translation features in the future Apple Silicon CPU that may help Rosetta 2 out more.

Based on a variety of different software that was thrown at the DTK I’ve seen I would say that the experience that I saw does not line up with your experience. And a lot of different types of software (productivity to games) was thrown at it. Perhaps it’s user error but, as I recall, Rosetta 2 is supposed to run fairly transparently without the regular user knowing what is going on. This was not the case.
 

Acidsplat

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2011
372
953
I’ve seen a fair bit to be honest. And from what I have seen, it does not look promising. Keep in mind this is beta and on a DTK.




Based on a variety of different software that was thrown at the DTK I’ve seen I would say that the experience that I saw does not line up with your experience. And a lot of different types of software (productivity to games) was thrown at it. Perhaps it’s user error but, as I recall, Rosetta 2 is supposed to run fairly transparently without the regular user knowing what is going on. This was not the case.
Rosetta 2 is meant to be transparent to end users, the DTK is not meant for end users. Judge it when macOS 11 is finalized and running on Apple Silicon in the hands of consumers.
 
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fokmik

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Oct 28, 2016
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I have the mac mini dev kit for some time now...at the end of October i have to return it
Rosetta 2 works for now (at least i hope its just for now) just for the x86 apps that are installed FROM the app store
If you get an app dmg from an website rosetta2 doesnt work ...im still on early beta...maybe i will try this last one

EDIT: someone asked me to try a game called league of heroes or legends , i cant remember...and it worked...and it wasnt from the app store if i remember correctly
 

Mayo86

macrumors regular
Nov 21, 2016
105
304
Canada
I have the mac mini dev kit for some time now...at the end of October i have to return it
Rosetta 2 works for now (at least i hope its just for now) just for the x86 apps that are installed FROM the app store
If you get an app dmg from an website rosetta2 doesnt work ...im still on early beta...maybe i will try this last one

EDIT: someone asked me to try a game called league of heroes or legends , i cant remember...and it worked...and it wasnt from the app store if i remember correctly

Why are you returning it in October?
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Jan 14, 2006
2,502
2,452
Sweden
Rosetta 2 supports quite a bit of software, based off of what I've been able to run on my DTK.
I have the mac mini dev kit for some time now...at the end of October i have to return it
Rosetta 2 works for now (at least i hope its just for now) just for the x86 apps that are installed FROM the app store
If you get an app dmg from an website rosetta2 doesnt work ...im still on early beta...maybe i will try this last one

EDIT: someone asked me to try a game called league of heroes or legends , i cant remember...and it worked...and it wasnt from the app store if i remember correctly

Have you tested other popular 64-bit AAA games like Borderlands 2, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Metro 2033/Last Light Redux, Alien Isolation, Bioshock Remastered, Dying Light, Tomb Raider series? It would be great to hear if they work. :)
 

johngwheeler

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2010
639
211
I come from a land down-under...
Have you tested other popular 64-bit AAA games like Borderlands 2, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Metro 2033/Last Light Redux, Alien Isolation, Bioshock Remastered, Dying Light, Tomb Raider series? It would be great to hear if they work. :)

As someone else said earlier, testing apps on the DTK with pre-release MacOS 11 is really not going to be a good predictor of what will work on production machines. The CPU will be different, the OS will be different, and I'm sure that Rosetta 2 itself is still under development. I'm not sure if it even represents a reasonable baseline from which to estimate eventual performance.

I expect we will see a fair number of "misses" after release, where people discover apps that don't work correctly. This is why I won't be an early adopter, and will be looking for reviews of real-world usage for software that I use.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Jan 14, 2006
2,502
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Sweden
As someone else said earlier, testing apps on the DTK with pre-release MacOS 11 is really not going to be a good predictor of what will work on production machines. The CPU will be different, the OS will be different, and I'm sure that Rosetta 2 itself is still under development. I'm not sure if it even represents a reasonable baseline from which to estimate eventual performance.

I expect we will see a fair number of "misses" after release, where people discover apps that don't work correctly. This is why I won't be an early adopter, and will be looking for reviews of real-world usage for software that I use.

Yes, yes but I still want to know. If the games work now it's great. If they have issues we can blame the reasons you mentioned. :)
 

Acidsplat

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2011
372
953
Yes, yes but I still want to know. If the games work now it's great. If they have issues we can blame the reasons you mentioned. :)
Most should work if it's targeting Metal 2, but as seen with Tomb Raider under Rosetta, the performance is going to need you to turn down graphics settings to their nearly lowest.

FWIW, the Dolphin emulator was ran unmodified with no performance hit.
 
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fokmik

Suspended
Oct 28, 2016
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Why are you returning it in October?
These are the terms...you just pay to borrow the kit
[automerge]1601443284[/automerge]
Have you tested other popular 64-bit AAA games like Borderlands 2, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Metro 2033/Last Light Redux, Alien Isolation, Bioshock Remastered, Dying Light, Tomb Raider series? It would be great to hear if they work. :)
No, it was just that game....i think Tomb Raider was shown at the WWDC event.
 

johngwheeler

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2010
639
211
I come from a land down-under...
These are the terms...you just pay to borrow the kit

Does the October return date apply to everyone or is it specific to individual developers or companies?

What is your return date?

If it's a general condition - i.e. everyone who has one has to return it next month - then wouldn't that strongly indicate that the release will also be in October and that production ASi Macs will be immediately available. Otherwise, developers would be left without machines to develop on.

I have to say I find an October release date very optimistic, and I doubt that Apple would insist on the return of the DTK before developers have had a reasonable amount of time to acquire a production ASi Mac. I wouldn't expect them to ask for the DTK to be returned before Februrary 2021

Any else here have a DTK? What are your return conditions?
 

johngwheeler

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2010
639
211
I come from a land down-under...
Does the October return date apply to everyone or is it specific to individual developers or companies?

What is your return date?

If it's a general condition - i.e. everyone who has one has to return it next month - then wouldn't that strongly indicate that the release will also be in October and that production ASi Macs will be immediately available. Otherwise, developers would be left without machines to develop on.

I have to say I find an October release date very optimistic, and I doubt that Apple would insist on the return of the DTK before developers have had a reasonable amount of time to acquire a production ASi Mac. I wouldn't expect them to ask for the DTK to be returned before Februrary 2021

Any else here have a DTK? What are your return conditions?

I can answer my own question. The terms and conditions for use and return can be found here:

Here are the conditions of return (Section 4):
----------
"The Universal App Quick Start Program will commence on the date You accept this Addendum and will automatically expire and terminate without notice from Apple one (1) year from the date You accept the Addendum, unless terminated earlier in accordance with this Section 4 or otherwise agreed by Apple (the “Term”). This Addendum and all rights and licenses granted by Apple hereunder will terminate (including any right to use the Developer Transition Kit), effective immediately if You or any of Your Authorized Developers fail to comply with any term of this Addendum and/or the Developer Agreement, or in the event that Apple suspends or terminates Your Developer account. Either party may terminate this Addendum for its convenience, for any reason or no reason, effective immediately upon written notice from the other party of the intent to terminate.

You agree to promptly return the Developer Transition Kit to the Apple address designated by Apple no later than thirty (30) days after the end of the Term, or as otherwise earlier requested by Apple (including via email or announcement by Apple on developer.apple.com). At the end of the Term, You agree to immediately cease all use of the Developer Transition Kit and the Universal App Quick Start Program. Failure to return the Developer Transition Kit may result in the suspension of Your Developer account or termination of Your Developer Agreement."
----------

So, you get one year from the date of acceptance, and then a return window of 30 days after the end of the term. That puts it at the end of July 2021 at the earliest.

No idea why FokMik has to return it in October. Perhaps she borrowed it from someone who is sharing the contract by lending it to multiple developers for a shorter period? Or decided to return it early? Or broke some condition, and was asked by Apple to return it?

[automerge]1601450607[/automerge]
Iirc they said developers get to keep it for 6 months

It's one year. See https://developer.apple.com/terms/u...veloper-Universal-App-Quick-Start-Program.pdf
 
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Mayo86

macrumors regular
Nov 21, 2016
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Yes, yes but I still want to know. If the games work now it's great. If they have issues we can blame the reasons you mentioned. :)

The DTK is valid for one year I believe so I don’t know what they are talking about.
In regards to your question, Tomb Raider (the first of the trilogy) works amazingly well.. at 4K with everything turned up fairly high except AA. The other 2 in the series don’t work for some reason. One won’t even allow you to open it and the other will crash before the main menu. However, I’m fairly certain they would work with a bit of tinkering as they did show off the second or third one at WWDC.
 
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thingstoponder

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2014
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The DTK is valid for one year I believe so I don’t know what they are talking about.
In regards to your question, Tomb Raider (the first of the trilogy) works amazingly well.. at 4K with everything turned up fairly high except AA. The other 2 in the series don’t work for some reason. One won’t even allow you to open it and the other will crash before the main menu. However, I’m fairly certain they would work with a bit of tinkering as they did show off the second or third one at WWDC.
Are they all Metal games?
 

Kostask

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Jul 4, 2020
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
The DTK is valid for one year I believe so I don’t know what they are talking about.
In regards to your question, Tomb Raider (the first of the trilogy) works amazingly well.. at 4K with everything turned up fairly high except AA. The other 2 in the series don’t work for some reason. One won’t even allow you to open it and the other will crash before the main menu. However, I’m fairly certain they would work with a bit of tinkering as they did show off the second or third one at WWDC.

Because he got it in September/October of 2019? I have always suspected all along that certain software developers (amongst them Microsoft, Adobe, etc., but not limited to them) have had the DTK for a while, but under a very, very strict NDA. I honestly believe that Apple's DTK has existed in preliminary form since the A12Z has been available, and was used for a while internally for OS an App development. Somewhere along the line, it was refined some, and external developers (along with the very, very strict NDA) were given DTK units. This last WWDC, the rest of the developer community was given access to the DTK.
 

johngwheeler

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2010
639
211
I come from a land down-under...
Because he got it in September/October of 2019? I have always suspected all along that certain software developers (amongst them Microsoft, Adobe, etc., but not limited to them) have had the DTK for a while, but under a very, very strict NDA. I honestly believe that Apple's DTK has existed in preliminary form since the A12Z has been available, and was used for a while internally for OS an App development. Somewhere along the line, it was refined some, and external developers (along with the very, very strict NDA) were given DTK units. This last WWDC, the rest of the developer community was given access to the DTK.

Aha! That's an interesting possibility that sounds plausible. However, wouldn't these "select" developers under this NDA also have different conditions of return than the average Joe who signed up after WWDC?

It seems odd that Apple would make people return the DTK before they can be replaced with production units. If you are still developing your apps, it would be very inconvenient. You would also expect the people who received an early DTK to be trusted developers, well known to Apple - e.g. the big guns like Adobe, Microsoft & games companies.
 

Mayo86

macrumors regular
Nov 21, 2016
105
304
Canada
Because he got it in September/October of 2019? I have always suspected all along that certain software developers (amongst them Microsoft, Adobe, etc., but not limited to them) have had the DTK for a while, but under a very, very strict NDA. I honestly believe that Apple's DTK has existed in preliminary form since the A12Z has been available, and was used for a while internally for OS an App development. Somewhere along the line, it was refined some, and external developers (along with the very, very strict NDA) were given DTK units. This last WWDC, the rest of the developer community was given access to the DTK.

I have a fair bit of doubt that this individual would have received their DTK prior to WWDC. Let’s assume you are correct and there was DTKs in the wild. These individuals would have a higher level of NDA than WWDC DTK release kits, right? So then someone stated they have to return it in October thus they kind of disclosed the fact they received it earlier. Sounds odd to me.
 
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