Mac Mini M4 thermals

[sauria]

That is not old school, but physics.

Apple and every computer manufactures design computers to handle the thermal load, but high temperatures makes any computer chip throttle down. The cooler the internal components operate, the greater the chance for the computer to last, so you are correct. This is also true with mechanical devices such as engines, electrical motors, ball bearing-sets, and on and on.

Can’t beat, sir Isaac! 😉

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Can’t beat, sir Isaac! 😉

True

 

[adonis3k]

My Mac Mini M2 Pro was dead silent compared to the M4 Pro

 

[AlaskaMoose]

My Mac Mini M2 Pro was dead silent compared to the M4 Pro

I am assuming that a larger cooling fan that operates at a lower RPM would need more room in the computer's case, but it would be quieter. The Mini M2 pro has a larger case, and probably wider or less restricting cooling air passages. I also assume that if you can place the Mini M4 in the M2's case (minus its cooling fan and ducts), the fan's noise would increase but not as much as in the M4's case with its own cooling fan and air passages.

 

[NewOldStock]

This reminds me of the earlier M.2 NvMe-ssd drives people were covering the controller chips with heat pads or heat sinks and they should have only covered the storage chipsets only and was trapping heat loads on the storage chips and was detrimental to longevity of the chips. ("might have this backwards sorry").
Anyway hope with the heat loads all in the small package of the M4 mini every other carbon component can handle the heat loads. Time will tell. M4 fans sure removes heat fast so it's doing its thing and the aluminum/whatever it is case is being a heatsink as well. Gamers will have to turn down the graphics and all is well. Don't need the eye watering bleeding anyways. It will do it and 212F boils water too.
Don't push this thing all will be great.
This M4 mini has its heat governor working over time and doing its job so far.

 

[NewOldStock]

Waiting on the first YouTuber to post a FORCED M4 mini melt down.
Kind of like dropping the iPhone from a 5 story building and it broke.
Bet $$$ Ya Soon it happens.
Oh and Intel processors shut down with out a heat sink and AMD fried was the test years ago

 

[Beechside]

Very disappointed with M4 Mac Mini Pro thermals (64GB, 2TB). I'm a University lecturer in CompSci and part time Unity dev. Game Mode in the Unity Editor with a completely empty hierarchy and I'm seeing temperatures over 100˚C. No GameObjects (other than camera and single light), no components, no scripts, no Update code, nothing.

I've created a TG Pro profile as follows:

That keeps the temperature of a running empty project down to 74˚C on the GPU and 72˚C on the performance cores. Still noisy though with fans at 50%. Transcoding using Compressor or Handbrake fires the fan to max, naturally enough.

I'm seeing higher ambient than others. Efficiency cores 32˚, Performance cores 40˚, GPU 33˚

I did have an M1 Ultra Mac Studio and it was silent at all times, even on big Unity projects, Logic, Mainstage, FCP etc. Transcoding was always silent as well.

Too late to return my M4 so will wait for Mac Studio and sell my Mac Mini. Completely agree with others that this is caused with obsession about size. How it looks seems to be more import than how it is to live with.

Edit: setting Application.TargetFrameRate in a Unity script script didn't help but turning on VSync in Game Mode does improve things significantly. All the above applies to both Unity 2022 LTS and Unity 6.

 

[Cape Dave]

Very disappointed with M4 Mac Mini Pro thermals (64GB, 2TB). I'm a University lecturer in CompSci and part time Unity dev. Game Mode in the Unity Editor with a completely empty hierarchy and I'm seeing temperatures over 100˚C. No GameObjects (other than camera and single light), no components, no scripts, no Update code, nothing.

I've created a TG Pro profile as follows:

View attachment 2463352

That keeps the temperature of a running empty project down to 74˚C on the GPU and 72˚C on the performance cores. Still noisy though with fans at 50%. Transcoding using Compressor or Handbrake fires the fan to max, naturally enough.

I'm seeing higher ambient than others. Efficiency cores 32˚, Performance cores 40˚, GPU 33˚

I did have an M1 Ultra Mac Studio and it was silent at all times, even on big Unity projects, Logic, Mainstage, FCP etc. Transcoding was always silent as well.

Too late to return my M4 so will wait for Mac Studio and sell my Mac Mini. Completely agree with others that this is caused with obsession about size. How it looks seems to be more import than how it is to live with.

Edit: setting Application.TargetFrameRate in a Unity script script didn't help but turning on VSync in Game Mode does improve things significantly. All the above applies to both Unity 2022 LTS and Unity 6.

This does not bode well for my mini being shipped as we speak

 

[DigiH]

I've created a TG Pro profile as follows:TG Pro as well for this purpose, but also found the rules

Still noisy though with fans at 50%. Transcoding using Compressor or Handbrake fires the fan to max, naturally enough.

I've been testing TG Pro rules as well, but found them either jo-joing with the fan revving up and once the temps have cooled down going silent again until the temps rise again …or too noisy with a constant high rpm.


I am now with the trial period of iStats Menus and find their graphical fan curve superior, levelling at lower rpms while keeping a steady acceptable temperatures.

I'm sure something similar could be achieved with adding even more fine grained rules, but the graphical fan curve definition is so much more user friendly.

TG Pro still leads the pack though with it showing all sensor temps with their max indicators, monitoring the effectiveness of any Fan Helper.

A few more days of trial period testing and comparing …

 

[johngwheeler]

M4 Pro users - what CPU core temperatures do you typically have when the machine is mostly idle?

I can see the WindowServer and kernel_task processes are using around 20-25% & 15-20% CPU respectively, which seems typical, and a handful of other processes using 1-5% CPU (e.g. Avast antivirus, Safari) , but everything else is under 0.5%

I'm getting about 52C temps on most CPU/GPU cores, which is higher than I expected, given that some people are reporting temps around 40C.

My ambient temperature is quite high though (26-28C), so I would expect this to have some effect (maybe 2-3 degrees?)

The 50-55C temperatures are what I usually see on my 14" MBP M1 Max, so it's not a major worry, but I was hoping for cooler temperatures.

 

[streetfunk]

My Mac Mini M2 Pro was dead silent compared to the M4 Pro

yup !

it´s just not the same thing. The M4 has a completly different behave.

Very disappointed with M4 Mac Mini Pro thermals (64GB, 2TB).

Same for me ! (minipro, 14c, 24GB,2TB)

i do exactly the same things as i did with my M2pro, 12c.
the M4pro gets way warmer, even hot, sucks more power, uses all cores.....just for nothing.
and is NOT running at 4,4ghz.

I do realtime play audio tasks. Realtime sounddesign. My main app runs Single threaded.
i want to have full SC speed on one core, not 3.8 or 3.9ghz.

M4 Pro users - what CPU core temperatures to you typically have when the machine is mostly idle?

right now, just typing here, (firefox, on esr update channel), around 53°C on all 10 p-cores.


the other day, i had cPU tenp of 102°C on all P-cores. What i´ve donne:
Very same happened on two adjacent days:
i had firefox open, something like 11 tabs. 4-5-6 of those were the pages from my internet/phone provider with it´s BF sales. A major company in that business here, a sub of a 43billion company.

i solely had those FF pages open, i was NOT operating my mac, i was on the phone with them for something like 30 mins. When i hung up the phone and sat down again on my mac, CPU temps were 88°C one day, the next one 102°C....maybe one-two tabs more open on that day. (those ominous BF sales pages from my provider)
Those webpages had definitly something VERY fishy going on ! The whole thing was repeatable ! beside those two major events, i´ve also made some short quick tests.

Nevertheless, just Firefox alone, with those tabs open. All my 10 p-cores going up to 102°C !
how can such thing happen ?

i have iStats installed, i see the temps all the time.

 

[Honza1]

Nevertheless, just Firefox alone, with those tabs open. All my 10 p-cores going up to 102°C !
how can such thing happen ?

i have iStats installed, i see the temps all the time.

This is crazy and not right. I have Firefox, Safari, and Brave running all the time (with 4-8 web pages each), Parallels with few permanently running applications in the background (including Windows Firefox), and typically one media playing application (Plex, VLC, Channels,...) - and my m4 (not even Pro, but 24GB) is holding ~ 50C on CPU with other temps lower. All the time, I checked iStats menu history. Basically, the system is nearly at idle, cpu is using <1W and whole mini is <10W. Totally quiet. This is nothing for this cpu.
Now, there are apps (Handbrake) which will drive cpu to full power ;-)
Check Activity Monitor - if this is related to Firefox, then you may need some kind of add blocker. Something is misbehaving or you might be mining bitcoin for someone. If this is another process, it needs to identified and this needs to be fixed.
While it is easy to blame Apple & MacOS, high cpu load is usually related to user applications. There are web pages with instructions how to solve this in macOS.

 

[Beechside]

@AAPLGeek asked re ambient temperatures. Here's my idle system (M4 Pro Mac Mini 64GB, 2TB, twin Studio Displays):

 

[blufrog]

@Beechside What did you use to see that? iStat?

 

[bamboozledChiuaua]

@Beechside What did you use to see that? iStat?

Its "TG Pro".

I compared temps (my normal use) of my Macbook Air 15 M3 and my Mac Mini M4 base. Im getting lower temps with Macbook Air and it does not even have any active cooler.

I think they designed new Mac Mini to be super cheap and they put $1 cooler inside, its really bad.

 

[adonis3k]

I think they designed new Mac Mini to be super cheap and they put $1 cooler inside, its really bad.

Yeah but allllll those "Youtubers" said it was the best thing since sliced bread, who did all the testing and reviewing in a 10min 1 second video......

 

[blufrog]

With the entire Mini being smaller than my tower heatsink and fan on my PC CPU, I wasn't expecting the same thermal performance.

It seems reasonable when you consider the case is solid aluminium, doesn't contain any ventillation holes, and the CPU/GPU/heatsink are buried in the middle of a tiny box.

All things considered, I'd say it is performing very well.

It seems rather consistent at stabilizing at 3.8 GHz when it gets heat-soaked and throttles, which is curious. I'd expect a little variation, but it seems to do this as if it is intentional.

My earlier comment seemed to be mis-understood when I said AMD processors are designed to run at their thermal limit. I literally mean, they run at the thermal, by design, and regulate the processor clock to hold that temperature. This results in different, but stable clock speeds after some time.

I suspect Apple are doing similar: boosting to 4.4 GHz initially until hitting thermal limit, then regulating to maintain max temperature. This is why we see the drop from 4.4 down to 3.0 for a minute, as it allows it to cool very slightly below peak, before it ramps back up to an intermediate clock speed that holds temperature.

 

[MacCheetah3]

It seems rather consistent at stabilizing at 3.8 GHz when it gets heat-soaked and throttles, which is curious. I'd expect a little variation, but it seems to do this as if it is intentional.

My earlier comment seemed to be mis-understood when I said AMD processors are designed to run at their thermal limit. I literally mean, they run at the thermal, by design, and regulate the processor clock to hold that temperature. This results in different, but stable clock speeds after some time.

I suspect Apple are doing similar: boosting to 4.4 GHz initially until hitting thermal limit, then regulating to maintain max temperature. This is why we see the drop from 4.4 down to 3.0 for a minute, as it allows it to cool very slightly below peak, before it ramps back up to an intermediate clock speed that holds temperature.

It’s more like the typical misleading marketing — well, what other brands often misleadingly advertise. That is, ~4.4GHz is the single P-core workload boost/turbo, whereas ~3.8GHz appears to be the M4’s all-core (P-core) workload target frequency.* Of course, there are indeed some possible fluctuations associated with thermal/power limits. However, in my testing and what I’ve seen on benchmarks, any “throttling” (as used in an infamous manner) is rare. Ultimately, as much as it is somewhat helpful for comparisons by the geeky crowd, Apple not publishing specs such as clock speeds is smart.

* With M1, the values and adjustments appear to apply to each core cluster, which is similar to an AMD CCX. On M4 — I haven’t tested M2 or M3 — clock frequency targets appear to apply to all related cores (i.e., all P-cores will ramp to the same frequency even if none of the cores of the secondary P-core cluster are being pushed).

 

[bamboozledChiuaua]

Personally i have a feeling that they made mistake with internal power supply, its located between motherboard and top case and seems to prevent case from soaking cpu heat, also there would be more space inside for better cooler. External usb-c power supply would be actually more replaceable (power supply is the thing that will die fastest in this one) and user friendly.

 

[Beechside]

With the entire Mini being smaller than my tower heatsink and fan on my PC CPU, I wasn't expecting the same thermal performance.

It seems reasonable when you consider the case is solid aluminium, doesn't contain any ventillation holes, and the CPU/GPU/heatsink are buried in the middle of a tiny box.

All things considered, I'd say it is performing very well.

Yes, it's good given the limitations of the design but, with excess fan noise, one should ask if the design itself is good. I don't remember people asking for a cram-packed, tiny box. External psu as for laptops wouldn't have bothered me. Larger case with more room to breathe likewise.

It's quiet for many operations but the fan often kicks in and is much louder than earlier Apple Silicon models. It's a backwards step and that's what bothers me.

Triumph of design over utility.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I've honestly not yet heard the fan in my base Mini M4, despite doing a bunch of gaming with it so far

The exact same things I was doing on a 14" MBP M4 base I briefly owned and the fan was quite audible

So weird -- seemingly the same computer save for an internal storage difference

 

[AlumaMac]

Triumph of design over utility.

I agree, shrink the size and make the storage prices so ridiculous that people end up with external drives hanging off of it completely negating the small footprint.

 

[bamboozledChiuaua]

I agree, shrink the size and make the storage prices so ridiculous that people end up with external drives hanging off of it completely negating the small footprint.

Apple is just banking everything on value of Mac OS integration.

I can somewhat understand their strategy when it comes to notebooks/laptops, Macbooks are really good laptops, Apple M series shines in extreme low power computation.

BUT desktops are different, if user dont mind using Windows then there are now a lot of PCs very similiar to Mac Mini, but they have 32GB of ram stock and one or two NVMe ssd slots. Often faster than Apple M chips in multicore and AMD has many good new CPUs is future lineup.

There is a reason why Mac Minis are like only 1% of all Apple sales, they fail in comparison to products outside of "Apple bubble". Its up to them if they want to change that or not, new Mac Mini is cute but it aint any kind of revolution.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I agree, shrink the size and make the storage prices so ridiculous that people end up with external drives hanging off of it completely negating the small footprint.

Yep
In my case, I've ordered the RayCue dock/hub/thing with an internal NVMe slot for my boot drive

 

[Honza1]

Yes, it's good given the limitations of the design but, with excess fan noise, one should ask if the design itself is good. I don't remember people asking for a cram-packed, tiny box. External psu as for laptops wouldn't have bothered me. Larger case with more room to breathe likewise.

It's quiet for many operations but the fan often kicks in and is much louder than earlier Apple Silicon models. It's a backwards step and that's what bothers me.

Triumph of design over utility.

I disagree. They got the thing perfect for my use case. It is completely quiet in tasks where 2020 Intel mini was annoyingly noisy. It can run lot larger loads at just few Watts, 24 hours a day... And looks really pretty in living room (my wife's criterion). And that is also very important ;-)
And when really necessary, it can do some serious work (at cost of power and heat, obviously - laws of physics are difficult to break). Overall, Apple got this one right, at least for me.
Considering the price, size and everything, m4 mini (surely the base chip one) is positioned for low requirements base use, you know - office, living room, schools, ... - not for heavy duty users or gamers. For my work I want larger packaged m4 Pro (16' MBP) which can handle serious load easier.
The fact that there is no external power source one could loose was amazing surprise, I was expecting one considering the box size.
If mini is not right, may be consider Mac Studio, not tiny Mac mini ???