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Kimmo

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2011
266
318
And THIS is the part that they're screwing up right now. Never in my life would I consider getting a PC as a MAIN in my HOME STUDIO.

NEVER.

And yet, here I am, genuinely contemplating picking up that Puget System with the dual 4090's in it. This is what I imagine my great (to the 10th power) grandmother Eve must've felt in the garden tempted by that snake, the devil (here represented by Puget Systems).

I don't want to eat the apple, but Apple is actively trying to leave me no choice SMH.

I've been looking at the Puget stuff, too. Tempting, but it's really not what I want to do.

I just hope Apple gives us some visibility on the 8,1 Pro soon, and that it's something that impresses (in a good way) you, ZPhysicist and the other heavy users here.

If it does, it'll be a good sign that we creatives who don't need the absolute top-end firepower, but want to spend our hard-earned money on a machine that is expandable and stands a fighting chance against the cynical tide of planned obsolescence, can purchase something in the new Mac Pro range that will work for us for a long time.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
I've been looking at the Puget stuff, too. Tempting, but it's really not what I want to do.

I just hope Apple gives us some visibility on the 8,1 Pro soon, and that it's something that impresses (in a good way) you, ZPhysicist and the other heavy users here.

If it does, it'll be a good sign that we creatives who don't need the absolute top-end firepower, but want to spend our hard-earned money on a machine that is expandable and stands a fighting chance against the cynical tide of planned obsolescence, can purchase something in the new Mac Pro range that will work for us for a long time.
I’m fighting hard brother. I don’t want to either but I’m running out of excuses not to. My fingers are crossed right there with you that Apple shows us literally ANYTHING at their January event. Begging them 🙏🏽
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,400
3,069
Stargate Command
If the ASi Mac Pro is on 5nm (5nm+/4nm/whatever), then January could be feasible; if it is on 3nm, then March/April at the earliest...?

I would think Spring 2023 for the M2 Pro/M2 Max/M2 Ultra consumer/prosumer Macs, with a sneak peak at the ASi Mac Pro, and then the ASi Mac Pro actually launching WWDC 2023...?
 
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fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
If the ASi Mac Pro is on 5nm (5nm+/4nm/whatever), then January could be feasible; if it is on 3nm, then March/April at the earliest...?

I would think Spring 2023 for the M2 Pro/M2 Max/M2 Ultra consumer/prosumer Macs, with a sneak peak at the ASi Mac Pro, and then the ASi Mac Pro actually launching WWDC 2023...?
I'd say WWDC reveal and ships in the fall/end of 2023. If it's a quicker timeframe than that, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but that's basically how the 6,1 and 7,1 launches went (and I expect we'll quickly see orders backlog for months with the initial demand like those ones, as well.)
 

Kimmo

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2011
266
318
If the ASi Mac Pro is on 5nm (5nm+/4nm/whatever), then January could be feasible; if it is on 3nm, then March/April at the earliest...?

I would think Spring 2023 for the M2 Pro/M2 Max/M2 Ultra consumer/prosumer Macs, with a sneak peak at the ASi Mac Pro, and then the ASi Mac Pro actually launching WWDC 2023...?

I'd say WWDC reveal and ships in the fall/end of 2023. If it's a quicker timeframe than that, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but that's basically how the 6,1 and 7,1 launches went (and I expect we'll quickly see orders backlog for months with the initial demand like those ones, as well.)
Here's what I want.

Apple buys a spot during halftime of the Knicks - 76ers Christmas game where Tim makes the exciting reveal.
Screen Shot 2022-12-07 at 1.03.24 PM.png


Johny Srouji makes an appearance as Tim's special elf (unless Apple marketing thinks he'll scare the kids).

Shipping begins January 3rd.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,471
4,031
If the ASi Mac Pro is on 5nm (5nm+/4nm/whatever), then January could be feasible; if it is on 3nm, then March/April at the earliest...?

The fab process should be relatively immaterial. Apple can do a "sneak peak" 3-6 months before they actually ship.
Even if it was N3 and not shipping until April-May they could still do a reveal Dec-January.

If they are doing a sizable shift in focus for the product then a "sneak peak" would not probably impact the current Mac Pro sales much. MP 2019 is really priced to high for the current market for what it holds. Intel doing a 'reveal' of there workstation chips in February and board vendors are already showing product to some folks.

[dropping heavy hints now ... so should be leaking like a sieve by January. ]

When Intel rolls out their Sapphire Rapids generation stuff the MP 2019 will be sitting on 2 generation old CPUs. Yeah, the Xeon W-6300 series was not widely adopted, but is going to serve as a reminder that Apple shipped nothing in Rip-van-Winkle mode yet again. Intel is going to be able to say "Sorry we are year late , but we shipped before Apple did. They are still on snooze. ".


AMD is shipping Threadripper 5000 now. Apple hiding in a hole until March-April is only going to get them a large butt whipping on MP 2019 sales Q1 2023.

First, they flaked and didn't do the transition in 2 years. If they have a "dog ate my homework" excuse the then need to present it. Not hide hoping no one is going to notice. Folks in the tech press are going to notice when the calendar rolls over to 2023. If there is nothing else to write about there will be a steady drip, drip , drip of yet another story about how Apple blew their deadline and left the MP user base hanging.

Second, they really don't need a huge dog and pony show. That April 2017 meeting they had with a handful of reporters/commentators was enough to paint some broad , low detail strokes about what they were going to do. If 3rd party display GPUs are dead ... then they should just go ahead and say it. ( Similar how they stated that virtualization would be the path going forward with M-series for other operating systems. Yeah there are folks still claiming that native boot Windows is coming real soon now , but anyone doing serious long term planning isn't wasting time on that notion. )

The folks who pick the discrete, display GPU first ( Nvidia 4090 ) and then secondarily look for a container to put it in; they can just move on without prolonged disappointment. Apple doesn't need a dog and pony show for that.


I would think Spring 2023 for the M2 Pro/M2 Max/M2 Ultra consumer/prosumer Macs, with a sneak peak at the ASi Mac Pro, and then the ASi Mac Pro actually launching WWDC 2023...?

Waiting until WWDC 2023 is only asking to get smoked by Threadripper 7000. ( similar to how AMD dropped the mike with the W5000 on the Ultra launch. ) .
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
Do you think January? For some reason I was not thinking it would come that soon. Hope youre right!
I don't think it will RELEASE in January, but Apple HAS TO KNOW they need to at the very least start the year off with some kind of official first look if not direct news about the system...if they do give us at least that much, many folks in my position would likely hold off on leaving the ecosystem "or expanding it to something non-apple" at least until the spring event, which is when I think they will absolutely give us a full on reveal for an actual release at WWDC 2023.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
If the ASi Mac Pro is on 5nm (5nm+/4nm/whatever), then January could be feasible; if it is on 3nm, then March/April at the earliest...?

I would think Spring 2023 for the M2 Pro/M2 Max/M2 Ultra consumer/prosumer Macs, with a sneak peak at the ASi Mac Pro, and then the ASi Mac Pro actually launching WWDC 2023...?
LMFAO! I literally just wrote almost exactly this in response to @ZombiePhysicist a second ago lolol
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,471
4,031
Amazon now makes its own processors for its data centers. With all the digital services Apple is offering, maybe they are contemplating the same switch. If Apple became its own Mac Pro customer, the product would instantly go from niche to high volume.

The overwhelming vast majority of Apple cloud services runs on Linux; not macOS. (some internal backend stuff on Solaris and some other BSD OS instances ). The one corner case where macOS has a substantive foothold is the new XCode Cloud service. But that isn't a giant dominating consumer of Apple's server data center floor space.

For Linux there is diminishingly small upside to Apple spinning their own versus just buying off the shelf from Ampere. Ampere already works (drivers in place, software ecosystem , other adopters , scales past 64 threads, etc.) Apple has no huge perf/watt gap there. The M-series SoC are quite skewed toward running macOS better. Alot of that carries over into running Linux ( and Windows ) well, but not radically better for multiuser , multentant server operations.

Apple buys there data center systems from folks like Supermicro , Inspur , etc. Those vendors sell Ampere systems already.


Apple can just keep buying raw and/or "open compute" components from the same folks they have been doing bulk buys from all along. It really only a matter of when Apple wants to slide the new boxes into their data center. Not some huge internal R&D project. Similar thing for buying DPUs if want to 'copy' Amazon's hyperscaling work with Nitro. Just buy them off the shelf vendors selling to other hyperscalers.

And a very sizable amount of Apple Cloud services doesnt' even come out of directly Apple run data centers. Apple partner with Amazon to run stuff and can switch to Graviton whenever they wish. Apple does work with Cloudflare.

https://blog.cloudflare.com/designing-edge-servers-with-arm-cpus/

Apple's layers on Cloudflare can already tap into those Arm servers already with no magic pixel dust from Apple designed silicon.


Most of Amazon cloud services customers pay substantive amounts of money. Most of Apple's don't. Graviton has a very solid funding source. Apple's cloud services don't. (XCode Cloud is relatively expensive (to other Apple cloud service) , but not very large. )


XCode cloud is likely going to look alot like what MacStadium/minicoloc and other mac dev box in the cloud vendors have been operating for over a decade ... mostly a bunch of racked Minis. macOS isn't really licensed multitenant. It is licensed to sell more Macs. So Apple will probably use up lots of Macs also to do it. A bigger 'missing piece' is the Mx Pro Mini system not creating some "Graviton killer".

MacStadium was buying pallets of Mac Pro 2013's right up until Apple stopped selling them. The Mac Pro 2019 has some compute density problems for server rooms where floor space costs are not minimal. A Mini Pro or Studio Max will cover lots of needs. There will be some Mac Pros needed for customers on XCode Cloud with oversized needs , but that won't be some humongous volume number.

For example, if the builds needed more than 10GbE feeds to network storage. A racked Mac Pro with 20-40GbE network cards would help. ( in some cases 100GbE even more if could find a card with macOS drivers ). That is why there should be more work to add better I/O than just 4 x1 PCI-e v4 lanes and some TBv4 controllers (with x4 PCI-e v3 ). Apple missing just basic workstation I/O is a problem they need to fill.


There is some bigger synergy of Apple enabling easy to deploy VM instances from macOS to Linux data center hardware where they can do more "eat your own dog food". But that is going from developer workstations out to production equipment. Not making the production equipment. That is why the Apple virtualization framework is much further developed for Linux than it is for Windows. Apple is probably already eating-their-own-dogfood there from the start.

Apple killed off "MacOS Sever". If there are not in the business of making software for a hard core server , why would they spin up making the hardware? testing and build farms are a corner case where taking would could be done on a single user system and just doing more of it in parallel in a "on demand" fashion. A SoC that is faster at making individual systems do compile/build/test faster works outside the server farm. ( most 'developers' are using individual systems most of the time).

Apple's default network file system option is SMB/CIFS ( Windows/Samba ) ... macOS isn't the 'worlds best' SMB server out there. Remote source code control repository software like git ... again macOS has some huge advantage playing the server role how? (it doesn't. Which is one reason why XCode Cloud service doesn't really try to cover that at all. )

If Arm's Neoverse server core evolution program falls off a cliff into disfunction then perhaps Apple would have a strong need to "roll their own" sever SoC. Ampere is jumping off onto their own custom cores , so if they stumble and fall hard and there is nobody but Amazon there would be a problem. (Nvidia is rolling out on a Neoverse variant though ... Neoverse makes for a lower barrier to entry so will probably end up with multiple vendors long term as long as it is around to jumpstart new vendors to Arm server market) . There were/are several "apple has gotta do a server processor" notion threads over in the Apple Silicon forums. Those too feed off the suspect notion that almost all of the Arm sever momentum is trapped inside of Amazon (and their Graviton efforts). it wasn't then, but it is more public now. (which hyperscaler isn't publicly buying Ampere SoCs at this point is a harder service to spot. )


P.S. the Qualcomm/Nuvia vs Arm lawsuit also is demonstrative that Apple cannot just willy nilly jump into the server market. There is not lots of upside for Apple to radically "fight" Arm on the direction and development of the Arm server market. If Apple buys stuff then they are far more aligned than trying to swim upstream.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,471
4,031
Has Apple even offered any rackmount capabilities to any Mac Pro besides the 2019 Intel Mac Pro 7,1 model...?

apple hasn't offered any Mini rack modules and yet folks have made it work.

d1fc8150-ca10-436b-9430-1afdd187c173_MacStadium_Macmini_rack_up_screen.jpeg



Very much so, not generic 19" standard racks. For the 2018 Mini max configuration , the compute density there is way higher than Mac Pro 2019 or even the MP 2013 ( which is even better than 2010-12 , hence part of reason why Apple kept selling them for a long time and were far, far less of a "total failure" than many purport it to be. MP 2013 made Apple profits. )



I know there have been third-party options for the "Trashcan" Mac Pro 6,1 model, but I believe the 5,1 & earlier Mac Pro models were too tall for any rackmount solution unless the handles were cut off...?

Emm no. There are 23" racks.



It means you can't mix and match in the same rack but folks could put a rack horizontally mounted 5,1's next to a rack of 19" width. (or put some 19-to-23 adpaters to stuff 19 stuff into the same column. ). So there was not a rack solution where could dump older 19" stuff for new Mac Pro stuff.

People extensively sawing handles were so obsessed with trying to fit round pegs into square holes ( "has to be a 19" rack so therefore break out the saw). With planning flexibility could just use the less common 23" standard.


The Mac Pro 2019 rack enclosure is certainly much less typical standard rack hostile.
 
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Dopemaster

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2022
29
17
If the ASi Mac Pro is on 5nm (5nm+/4nm/whatever), then January could be feasible; if it is on 3nm, then March/April at the earliest...?

I would think Spring 2023 for the M2 Pro/M2 Max/M2 Ultra consumer/prosumer Macs, with a sneak peak at the ASi Mac Pro, and then the ASi Mac Pro actually launching WWDC 2023...?
Pet hate of mine is when, on international forums, Americans (I’m assuming you’re American) refer to their country’s seasons in terms of release schedules.

I don’t have the faintest idea of when Spring is in America, nor do most people in the world.

On topic, if Apple could spin out their own AS GPU with multiple slots, some extra high-bandwidth variation of infinity fabric back to the processor, we
Might just have something on our hands here.
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
the mac studio is here for 95% of the tasks needed by professionals.
Apple could very well have made live together mac studios and mac pros in Sapphire-rapids for the big amount of ram and big gpu needs.
the desire to completely get rid of intel doesn't make too much sense.
since AM5 cpus can accept ecc ram, we could also consider an AMD mac pro with ryzen 9 7950X.
For the pros, full windows 11 / linux compatibility is important and bootcamp would still be there, or a parallel desktop integrated into Mac Os, which would be a little more interesting than stage manager (gadget).
 
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fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
I don't think it will RELEASE in January, but Apple HAS TO KNOW they need to at the very least start the year off with some kind of official first look if not direct news about the system...if they do give us at least that much, many folks in my position would likely hold off on leaving the ecosystem "or expanding it to something non-apple" at least until the spring event, which is when I think they will absolutely give us a full on reveal for an actual release at WWDC 2023.
You should probably send such feedback directly to Apple, honestly. It'll make marginally more difference if you and people like you directly let them know versus us yammering on these forums.
 
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innerproduct

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2021
207
329
Anyone here with a 6k xdr ? Considering one to get taxes in the rights side of the year. Had expected the mp and new xdr to come out this year so I waited. Is it a sane buy today?
 
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Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
Very happy with Tim Cook today. They listened and got rid of CSAM. Pressure works on Apple. They maybe stubborn but in the end they relent and give in.
yes but in that case there may also been the idea well someone may demanded the source code / other inside docs on that in the court room and maybe even call someone from apple to the stand.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
Anyone here with a 6k xdr ? Considering one to get taxes in the rights side of the year. Had expected the mp and new xdr to come out this year so I waited. Is it a sane buy today?
Personally I think it's still an excellent buy. You still get an extra 1,000 nits over the Studio Displays, 6k, and 1,000,000:1 ratio...It's still a reference level monitor and 100% worth the buy if you need to reassure you catch the tax break. And if they release a newer 1, screw it, get the updated one too...they'll look great next to each other I'm sure. The form won't be different, just the internals.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,471
4,031
Very happy with Tim Cook today. They listened and got rid of CSAM. Pressure works on Apple. They maybe stubborn but in the end they relent and give in.

Listened to who? It is extremely not likely to be coincidental that CSAM rollout died at the exact same time Apple pushed end-to-end encryption onto Photos. Apple has protected themselves from child porn charges by just completely side stepping the liability problem. They can't help stop the child porn because now they can't see it ( at rest) . So it can't be partially their fault it is being stored and distributed on their equipment. Sgt. Shultz; they see nothing , know nothing , hear nothing, nothing , nothing , nothing.


Most of the original CSAM was about scanning the iCloud photos. Apple isn't dropping all of the measures, they just aren't going to chasing archive builders/distributors.

"...
Instead, it's focusing on opt-in Communication Safety features that warn parents about nudity in iMessage photos as well as attempts to search for CSAM using Safari, Siri and Spotlight.

Apple plans to expand Communication Safety to recognize nudity in videos as well as content in other communications apps. The company further hopes to enable third-party support for the feature so that many apps can flag child abuse. There's no timeframe for when these extra capabilities will arrive, but Apple added that it would continue making it easy to report exploitative material. ..."


Two Apple initiatives collided here. Apple's big "we are a super mega corp, but trust us " Privacy initiative. And CSAM. the 'bigger' initiative won. Apple big initiative on Perf/Watt versus maximal power draw ... probably plays out in a similar way.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,400
3,069
Stargate Command
Sgt. Shultz; they see nothing , know nothing , hear nothing, nothing , nothing , nothing.

Man, I miss those Hogan's Heroes reruns from late last century...!

Apple big initiative on Perf/Watt versus maximal power draw ... probably plays out in a similar way.

Except for the ASi Mac Pro, right...? Right...?!?

( ...insert Anakin/Padme meme here... )
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,471
4,031
Anyone here with a 6k xdr ? Considering one to get taxes in the rights side of the year. Had expected the mp and new xdr to come out this year so I waited. Is it a sane buy today?

Buying an XDR or Mac Pro or not should be an independent decision from the tax breaks. If you actually need (real requirements . not 'want'/'desire' ) it, then buy it. If that happens to generate some tax breaks then that should only be "gravy on top".
 
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