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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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Yep. This 100%

Because of the convo here on this thread, I actually ended up on Puget's website contemplating a home system. They have a really nice 3D workstation with 2 RTX 4090's in it for $11,000 and quite frankly, that was the cost of my 2 w6800x duo's in my 2019 Mac Pro all by themselves LOLOL.

I may just grab one of these to use at home. I do admittedly enjoy running Unreal on it as well as motion capture at the studio, so might as well run one here at home. I've been stubborn because I only want the Apple Ecosystem at home "hell even my studio was 100% pure Mac until Virtual Sets and Motion Capture and photogrammetry became a part of my steady workflow because alot of the best programs for those particular things were exclusively "or at least not natively" only on PC.

I've made a lot of crazy choices to protect my walled garden. A garden I've put at least $800k into or so between my actual studio and my home studio. And with a couple dozen iMacs from between 2017 and 2020 that once costed me $5k a piece that are all worth like $400 now...becuase they can't be upgraded and they run extremely slow and they can't all be networked properly as a render farm "I really should've just bought 25 or so Mac mini's for that", I've been selling them to local businesses and individuals...I've only got a couple left. The studio mainly runs on 2019 Mac Pro's, M1 iMacs, and soon I'll be picking up maybe 6 or so Mac Studios to install there. Here at home it's just my 2019 Mac Pro, my M1 Max MacBook Pro, an M1 iPad Pro 13 inch, and a Mac Studio, oh and a 2019 iMac still going strong upstairs in my home music studio...and sadly, maybe as of today, a Puget System with 2 RTX 4090's...it's sitting in the cart...just gotta let the finger fly lololol.

That thing is just gonna be so...strange, in a Mac house...but Apple is forcing this choice on me...and I will never understand why they would do that. Why they would happily just give my money to other companies when I literally want to give it to them. What a strange time to be alive...

This.
Is.
Sad.

Couple this with @innerproduct comments, which basically notes that the prodigal son period is when the 'think different' group saw their perseverance and loyalty rewarded. That group SAVED apple from bankruptcy, and Apple made things for that group, that the think different crowd loved.

Now you have guys like @maikerukun who is a super creator, and a super apple fan, and perhaps part of a last loyal group who are willing to spend 2x, 3x more just to stay on the apple platform, being driven out if apple repeats mistakes it should have learned from history (stop ignoring pro/enthusiasts true needs, eg, upgradable graphics cards and slots).

To mix more metaphors, reminds me a bit of the Lorax after the last tree is chopped down, picking himself up and flying away.

Very sad.

iu
 

exoticSpice

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Jan 9, 2022
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That's not true. My current 2019 Mac Pro is literally equivalent to an RTX 4090...the problem is My current Mac Pro is running FOUR GPU's...2 w6800x Duo's...it should NOT require 4 GPUs on one system to equate to one GPU elsewhere. The system I am buying today has 2 and as such will be twice as fast as my 2019 Mac Pro "sadly"...and since w7800x duo's will not be created more than likely since AMD is probably not going to be allowed to make them for the Mac Pro...I have no choice it seems :(
Also the the dual RTX 4090 will still be faster than dual RDNA 3 7900xtx. Why?

Because Tensor cores and CUDA is much more suited to rendering and other high end workstation tasks. Nvidia just has great GPU ecosystem that AMD currently is not there yet.

Yes the RTx 3090 and Rx 6900 duo was close in raster(compute) but the RTX 4090 is in a different league.

The Rx 7900 XTX will not come close to the 4090 animation and rendering.
This video explains it all.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
This.
Is.
Sad.

Couple this with @innerproduct comments, which basically notes that the prodigal son period is when the 'think different' group saw their perseverance and loyalty rewarded. That group SAVED apple from bankruptcy, and Apple made things for that group, that the think different crowd loved.

Now you have guys like @maikerukun who is a super creator, and a super apple fan, and perhaps part of a last loyal group who are willing to spend 2x, 3x more just to stay on the apple platform, being driven out if apple repeats mistakes it should have learned from history (stop ignoring pro/enthusiasts true needs, eg, upgradable graphics cards and slots).

To mix more metaphors, reminds me a bit of the Lorax after the last tree is chopped down, picking himself up and flying away.

Very sad.

iu
It's heartbreaking honestly, and I will admit to feeling genuinely sad and confused.

I feel a strange loyalty to Apple because frankly, my entire lifestyle both work and leisure, is owed to them and their products. And now I feel...completely unseen by them. Why release such a promising start to a new future for pros with the 2019 Mac Pro 7.1 and then just...abandon us?

It really does hurt and makes me sad. I don't want to buy this other system, and the scary part is, I KNOW how good it is, and with the speed I'll have access to, I'll have very little reason to hold on to my Mac Pro, and will be forced into replacing it with whatever AS Mac Pro ends up being just to keep my home running in the Apple Ecosystem I've built properly.

I'm hoping they are aware that they're doing this to us and that the AS Mac Pro ends up being something none of us could've possibly expected it to be...otherwise we will all be the Lorax, picking ourselves up and flying off into the ether...
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
It also looks currently that Apple will cap the 8,1 RAM at 384GB unless they make a server/Workstation chip for the Mac Pro.
Yep. I saw that before and it made me sad as hell. I'm really just praying for a workstation chip and hoping this all works out in the end. I really mostly just hope Apple is aware of what they are doing to this community and are secretly addressing it...we need something good to happen for the pros and enthusiasts that are still loyal to them.
 

prefuse07

Suspended
Jan 27, 2020
895
1,072
San Francisco, CA
That's what I'm saying. Per @ZombiePhysicist 's comment above, there are users like @maikerukun and all of us enthusiasts who are just getting left in the dark because Tim apple :rolleyes: wants to focus on mobile?

Such a stupid business decision on his/their part!

And then there are the apologist folks that come here and defend those stupid decisions/mistakes, that's what I have a problem with. The cultish sheep followers that can't see the bigger picture here, and just continue to defend defend defend, at all costs...

If we don't stand up and call them out on their poor decisions, they will literally just box us into a corner (which I know is exactly what they want), or they will just have a cult of apologists... Sad ending to what was once a great innovator.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,036
That's what I'm saying. Per @ZombiePhysicist 's comment above, there are users like @maikerukun and all of us enthusiasts who are just getting left in the dark because Tim apple :rolleyes: wants to focus on mobile?

Such a stupid business decision on his/their part!

And then there are the apologist folks that come here and defend those stupid decisions/mistakes, that's what I have a problem with. The cultish sheep followers that can't see the bigger picture here, and just continue to defend defend defend, at all costs...

If we don't stand up and call them out on their poor decisions, they will literally just box us into a corner (which I know is exactly what they want), or they will just have a cult of apologists... Sad ending to what was once a great innovator.
That's the hardest part for me. I will always, ALWAYS, buy their products. They still make the best phones laptops, and tablets in the game. They still innovate in other spaces, and I'm more than happy to support that...however...even though I'll buy the 8.1, I won't be happy doing it. And THAT's the part that I can't understand. Yes, those of us that love your ecosystem and products will continue to purchase those products, but on the pro end, we won't feel good about it.

That should bother Tim. that should bother Apple as a whole. Steve would've wanted us to be overjoyed with our purchases. How it is right now...this isn't what he would've wanted.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,400
3,069
Stargate Command
That's the hardest part for me. I will always, ALWAYS, buy their products. They still make the best phones laptops, and tablets in the game. They still innovate in other spaces, and I'm more than happy to support that...however...even though I'll buy the 8.1, I won't be happy doing it. And THAT's the part that I can't understand. Yes, those of us that love your ecosystem and products will continue to purchase those products, but on the pro end, we won't feel good about it.

That should bother Tim. that should bother Apple as a whole. Steve would've wanted us to be overjoyed with our purchases. How it is right now...this isn't what he would've wanted.

But we really don't know what the new ASi Mac Pro will actually be yet, just a bunch of speculation & a handful of rumors; it could be a "double Mn Ultra Mac Studio" with PCIe slots bolted on, it could be an all-new high-end workstation "SoC" dedicated to the ASi Mac Pro with a 64-core CPU & enough GPU horsepower to trounce dual RTX4090Ti GPUs...?!? ;^p
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
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But we really don't know what the new ASi Mac Pro will actually be yet, just a bunch of speculation & a handful of rumors; it could be a "double Mn Ultra Mac Studio" with PCIe slots bolted on, it could be an all-new high-end workstation "SoC" dedicated to the ASi Mac Pro with a 64-core CPU & enough GPU horsepower to trounce dual RTX4090Ti GPUs...?!? ;^p
Thanks for saying that Boil LOLOL. I needed to a pick up from reality back to dreamland lololol :p I will keep my spirits high that Apple knows what they're doing and hasn't quite forgotten about us just yet :)
 
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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
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For at least the last 20 years, Apple have generally had fast CPUs (PPC limitations notwithstanding), but often middling GPUs. I just think they just prioritise slim / quiet enclosures, and strong GPUs tend to require a lot of power and hence need either large heatsinks or fast spinning fans. This kept them out of minis, iMacs, laptops at least. The MPs were the exception, 2013 model aside.

The issue with AS is in the same vein. They've created an SoC architecture that is power efficient, with strong CPUs and middling GPUs (by the standard of discrete graphics). This works well for minis, iMacs and laptops, but we've yet to see how it will work in a Mac Pro. Given AS macOS's focus on unified memory etc. it seems very unlikely that PCIe graphics cards will be supported. But without them, it's hard to see how Apple can be GPU-competitive on an ongoing basis. Especially as Mac Pro releases are likely to be on at least a 3 year cadence, if history is any guide.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,779
That's what I'm saying. Per @ZombiePhysicist 's comment above, there are users like @maikerukun and all of us enthusiasts who are just getting left in the dark because Tim apple :rolleyes: wants to focus on mobile?

Such a stupid business decision on his/their part!

And then there are the apologist folks that come here and defend those stupid decisions/mistakes, that's what I have a problem with. The cultish sheep followers that can't see the bigger picture here, and just continue to defend defend defend, at all costs...

If we don't stand up and call them out on their poor decisions, they will literally just box us into a corner (which I know is exactly what they want), or they will just have a cult of apologists... Sad ending to what was once a great innovator.

Beyond that, they will set up the fall of apple. All the Loraxes will float over to PC side. And they will make content. And they will not halo promote apple to their friends/families/co-workers. They will STOP putting easter eggs of apple as the good guy in movies. And after a while, meh, they dont need that apple laptop anymore because it's a pain not being able to interact with data/apps that they use on their big work machine. Then after a little while more, forget the iPad, their laptop is a 2-in-1. Then at that point, why bother with the iPhone. And they're gone. Gone out of the ecosystem.

Reverse halo. It is real. The halo effect brought many people out, but it breaks down when the full ecosystem isnt there.

And then these super enthusiasts and pros, who are very quiet but very mega influencers, stop doing IT for their friends and family unless they have similar machines. Too much a pain and no longer current on the tech. And a cascade starts to happen in rings of influence around them.

There is a REASON Steve Jobs, one of the greatest marketers of all time, threw his only life line to the enthusiast/pros that "think different". They were the ONLY ones that could turn that huge tide with enough of a halo effect/sphere of influence. It literally saved the company from bankruptcy. Those that say it's different now, apple is so much bigger, are wrong. They forget or never learned apple history.

Which is after Steve Jobs got kicked out of apple, John Skulley took over, and the revenues he made without Steve Jobs at the company dwarfed the revenues/profits achieved while Steve was there (by exploiting the vision and advances made by Steve and team). But he had no soul, he sucked at vision, and after a while, people didnt like how the company stagnated, and the company went in decline.

Think it cannot happen now? Very wrong. It can. Sure. Apple has WAY WAY more runway. But it also has way way way more wasteful burn rate.

Business basics are being failed at here. First not learning from history. Second, you NEVER throw away your strongest most loyal customer demographic, PARTICULARLY THE ONES THAT ABSOLUTELY SPEND THE MOST MONEY ON YOUR PRODUCTS. Google, hell any companies, would kill to have hyper loyal, high spend customers like Apple's 'think different' pro/enthusiasts.

You should never burn bridges. You never know when you may need to cross them again. And Apple would absolutely burn it's last bridge with the enthusiast pro market if they release a machine without multiple slots and at least some support for some 3rd party graphics card (with the exception being that they release their own custom graphics card that is some 10x order of magnitude better/faster than the best cards available by 3rd party providers). If Apple let's down the pro/enthusiast market with another trashcan Mac like mistake, I fear the 'think different' crowd will leave them for good.

Part of the damage is by apologists, not just in the forum, but the lapdog Mac/tech press is pure crap. The 7,1 Mac is great, but its problems are obvious. It's WAY too expensive and needs a $3k-5k entry model for more enthusiasts to get into like the old cheese grater Macs. Did the press LAMBAST apple for this obvious f'up? Nope, they bent over backwards like total lackey apologists explaining how you should be super happy about the 7,1's insane entry price point.

If people do NOT speak out and hold apple accountable, apple will just continue to obliviously think what they are doing is fine. Until it's too late.

SO SPEAK UP. COMPLAIN.

'Do not go gentle into the good night...rage RAGE against the dying of the light.'
 
Last edited:

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,400
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Stargate Command
You should never burn bridges. You never know when you may need to cross them again. And Apple would absolutely burn it's last bridge with the enthusiast pro market if they release a machine without multiple slots and at least some support for some 3rd party graphics card (with the exception being that they release their own custom graphics card that is some 10x order of magnitude better/faster than the best cards available by 3rd party providers). If Apple let's down the pro/enthusiast market with another trashcan Mac like mistake, I fear the 'think different' crowd will leave them for good.

So third-party card support would be accepted, but if Apple were to release their own ASi (GP)GPU, it has to be 10x better/faster than "the best" third-party cards...?!?
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
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So third-party card support would be accepted, but if Apple were to release their own ASi (GP)GPU, it has to be 10x better/faster than "the best" third-party cards...?!?

It would have to be. Why you may ask? Because they apparently go about 5 years between upgrades on their machines and people want confidence that next year's AMD/Nvidia wouldnt dwarf the advantage.

Remember the implied promise how since the Afterburner was an FPGA they could upgrade it at one point to both decode and maybe in the future encode?

Yea, everyone that held their breath has been buried.

Apple has a pretty attrocicious record for their 1st party upgrade/card offerings in this space. So yea, anything short of obliteration of the competition means no true pros/enthusiasts will be comforted by their next big promise of things to come in that space.

tenor.gif


The point being, that's why you need to support 3rd party graphics cards.
 
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exoticSpice

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Jan 9, 2022
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Beyond that, they will set up the fall of apple. All the Loraxes will float over to PC side. And they will make content. And they will not halo promote apple to their friends/families/co-workers. They will STOP putting easter eggs of apple as the good guy in movies. And after a while, meh, they dont need that apple laptop anymore because it's a pain not being able to interact with data/apps that they use on their big work machine. Then after a little while more, forget the iPad, their laptop is a 2-in-1. Then at that point, why bother with the iPhone. And they're gone. Gone out of the ecosystem.

Reverse halo. It is real. The halo effect brought many people out, but it breaks down when the full ecosystem isnt there.

And then these super enthusiasts and pros, who are very quiet but very mega influencers, stop doing IT for their friends and family unless they have similar machines. Too much a pain and no longer current on the tech. And a cascade starts to happen in rings of influence around them.

There is a REASON Steve Jobs, one of the greatest marketers of all time, threw his only life line to the enthusiast/pros that "think different". They were the ONLY ones that could turn that huge tide with enough of a halo effect/sphere of influence. It literally saved the company from bankruptcy. Those that say it's different now, apple is so much bigger, are wrong. They forget or never learned apple history.

Which is after Steve Jobs got kicked out of apple, John Skulley took over, and the revenues he made without Steve Jobs at the company dwarfed the revenues/profits achieved while Steve was there (by exploiting the vision and advances made by Steve and team). But he had no soul, he sucked at vision, and after a while, people didnt like how the company stagnated, and the company went in decline.

Think it cannot happen now? Very wrong. It can. Sure. Apple has WAY WAY more runway. But it also has way way way more wasteful burn rate.

Business basics are being failed at here. First not learning from history. Second, you NEVER throw away your strongest most loyal customer demographic, PARTICULARLY THE ONES THAT ABSOLUTELY SPEND THE MOST MONEY ON YOUR PRODUCTS. Google, hell any companies, would kill to have hyper loyal, high spend customers like Apple's 'think different' pro/enthusiasts.

You should never burn bridges. You never know when you may need to cross them again. And Apple would absolutely burn it's last bridge with the enthusiast pro market if they release a machine without multiple slots and at least some support for some 3rd party graphics card (with the exception being that they release their own custom graphics card that is some 10x order of magnitude better/faster than the best cards available by 3rd party providers). If Apple let's down the pro/enthusiast market with another trashcan Mac like mistake, I fear the 'think different' crowd will leave them for good.

Part of the damage is by apologists, not just in the forum, but the lapdog Mac/tech press is pure crap. The 7,1 Mac is great, but its problems are obvious. It's WAY too expensive and needs a $3k-5k entry model for more enthusiasts to get into like the old cheese grater Macs. Did the press LAMBAST apple for this obvious f'up? Nope, they bent over backwards like total lackey apologists explaining how you should be super happy about the 7,1's insane entry price point.

If people do NOT speak out and hold apple accountable, apple will just continue to obliviously think what they are doing is fine. Until it's too late.

SO SPEAK UP. COMPLAIN.

'Do not go gentle into the good night...rage RAGE against the dying of the light.'
tbh it already happened. I see more and more Windows and Android devices being shown. Sure, most shows have Apple devices but other tech is making leeway too.

I already learnt my lesson with Apple. The only Apple device I use now is an iPad and a 16" MBP Intel running Windows. My workstation is a PC.

Why I did this? Because I know with a PC I can trust to upgrade when I want too. The PC industry also follow standards. This is not 2005 where a Mac is great for video production anymore, PCs are great too. Reslove is BETTER than FCP now and on Mac even faster than FCP.

When Intel and AMD add AI and huge GPU cores to their CPUs and then make Apple's "M1" or SoC's for laptops then Apple's advantage is over. Apple like you said NEEDs to try better because the competition is really good now.
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
Yes that's true.
Apple's advantages are: MacOs and product design.
cons: no nvidia. mainly ^^ (and no drivers available for all the graphics cards we want)
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
2,884
2,779
tbh it already happened. I see more and more Windows and Android devices being shown. Sure, most shows have Apple devices but other tech is making leeway too.

I already learnt my lesson with Apple. The only Apple device I use now is an iPad and a 16" MBP Intel running Windows. My workstation is a PC.

Why I did this? Because I know with a PC I can trust to upgrade when I want too. The PC industry also follow standards. This is not 2005 where a Mac is great for video production anymore, PCs are great too. Reslove is BETTER than FCP now and on Mac even faster than FCP.

When Intel and AMD add AI and huge GPU cores to their CPUs and then make Apple's "M1" or SoC's for laptops then Apple's advantage is over. Apple like you said NEEDs to try better because the competition is really good now.
It would be so easy for Steve Jobs or a guy like musk to turn around. It just takes vision and real commitment. Those types of leaders can do that. They see the picture, show it to the troops and make it very clear, we are going there. Everyone then starts pulling oars in the same direction
These days apple are like a bunch of spoiled bitter cats and no one is even bothering to try to herd them anymore.

Also I agree. The trashcan debacle lost a lot of pro/enthusiast users for apple. The 7,1 pricing lost even more. There are still a few clutching on for dear life, and it’s why I say, if they mess up the 8,1, they will lose this segment forever.

Also your points support the reverse halo point I made. It’s very real.
 

exoticSpice

Suspended
Jan 9, 2022
1,242
1,952
Yes that's true.
Apple's advantages are: MacOs and product design.
cons: no nvidia. mainly ^^ (and no drivers available for all the graphics cards we want)
Yes the biggest con is no Nvidia for workstation use. For gaming 90% of people can do with an AMD card unless RT is like a must have for you.


One other thing is that Tim Cook's Apple made SSD upgrades or replacements near impossible in the 2018 and later Macs and now with Apple Sillicon they had soldered the SSDs or in the case of the Mac Studio just used NAND modules and them also not easily replaceable if they fail.

This SSD is not an issue with ARM as Qualcomm's ARM chips in ThinkPads and Surface Pros support user upgrades and replacements.

Also Tim never speaks from the heart. None of Apples current leadership do they all put a facade.
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
Beyond that, they will set up the fall of apple. All the Loraxes will float over to PC side. And they will make content. And they will not halo promote apple to their friends/families/co-workers. They will STOP putting easter eggs of apple as the good guy in movies. And after a while, meh, they dont need that apple laptop anymore because it's a pain not being able to interact with data/apps that they use on their big work machine. Then after a little while more, forget the iPad, their laptop is a 2-in-1. Then at that point, why bother with the iPhone. And they're gone. Gone out of the ecosystem.

Reverse halo. It is real. The halo effect brought many people out, but it breaks down when the full ecosystem isnt there.

And then these super enthusiasts and pros, who are very quiet but very mega influencers, stop doing IT for their friends and family unless they have similar machines. Too much a pain and no longer current on the tech. And a cascade starts to happen in rings of influence around them.

There is a REASON Steve Jobs, one of the greatest marketers of all time, threw his only life line to the enthusiast/pros that "think different". They were the ONLY ones that could turn that huge tide with enough of a halo effect/sphere of influence. It literally saved the company from bankruptcy. Those that say it's different now, apple is so much bigger, are wrong. They forget or never learned apple history.

Which is after Steve Jobs got kicked out of apple, John Skulley took over, and the revenues he made without Steve Jobs at the company dwarfed the revenues/profits achieved while Steve was there (by exploiting the vision and advances made by Steve and team). But he had no soul, he sucked at vision, and after a while, people didnt like how the company stagnated, and the company went in decline.

Think it cannot happen now? Very wrong. It can. Sure. Apple has WAY WAY more runway. But it also has way way way more wasteful burn rate.

Business basics are being failed at here. First not learning from history. Second, you NEVER throw away your strongest most loyal customer demographic, PARTICULARLY THE ONES THAT ABSOLUTELY SPEND THE MOST MONEY ON YOUR PRODUCTS. Google, hell any companies, would kill to have hyper loyal, high spend customers like Apple's 'think different' pro/enthusiasts.

You should never burn bridges. You never know when you may need to cross them again. And Apple would absolutely burn it's last bridge with the enthusiast pro market if they release a machine without multiple slots and at least some support for some 3rd party graphics card (with the exception being that they release their own custom graphics card that is some 10x order of magnitude better/faster than the best cards available by 3rd party providers). If Apple let's down the pro/enthusiast market with another trashcan Mac like mistake, I fear the 'think different' crowd will leave them for good.

Part of the damage is by apologists, not just in the forum, but the lapdog Mac/tech press is pure crap. The 7,1 Mac is great, but its problems are obvious. It's WAY too expensive and needs a $3k-5k entry model for more enthusiasts to get into like the old cheese grater Macs. Did the press LAMBAST apple for this obvious f'up? Nope, they bent over backwards like total lackey apologists explaining how you should be super happy about the 7,1's insane entry price point.

If people do NOT speak out and hold apple accountable, apple will just continue to obliviously think what they are doing is fine. Until it's too late.

SO SPEAK UP. COMPLAIN.

'Do not go gentle into the good night...rage RAGE against the dying of the light.'

Frankly, and I say this as someone who very much wants Apple to keep a focus on pro customers... I don't believe this at all.

If Apple is "doomed", it's going to be for many reasons, and "they stopped catering to high-end professional users with niche use cases" is nowhere near the top of the list. It's so far down, it's irrelevant.

The idea that pros "saved" Apple is at odds with reality. What saved Apple was simplifying the product line, dumping dead weight projects, streamlining their personnel costs, and then coming out with hit after hit of consumer products. No pro wanted an iMac, everyone else did. Jobs himself thought a focus on "pro" stuff was less than ideal and never actually seemed interested in it, or really any of the more niche groups (he briefly thought about gaming for like one year in 1999, and then never again.) His platonic ideal of a Mac was the G4 Cube, which again never connected with pros. They talked up server hardware in the early 2000s but clearly that team went on and did its own thing until it got noticed and canned, because there wasn't much momentum there.

More to the point, while a ton of software still remains platform (and vendor) specific, the vast majority of software ain't these days. More and more software, including professional tools, are web-based and platform-agnostic. The economies of scale that threatened the Mac to be irrelevant back in the day just don't apply. Whatever Apple's "bad days" look like in the future, it's not going to be the mid 90s again.

If pros were truly the evangelists steering the ship, then the Mac would be foundering right now after the 6,1 Mac Pro and the MBP keyboard design issues. The pro sphere has suffered years of neglect. Instead, they're trouncing the wider PC market.

It sucks, but people need to realize that as much as they hoot and holler, the larger per-person spend of professionals doesn't mean Apple is going to care about losing you.
 
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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
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PS. There are some of you that should get over the tc2013 as you seem to take that machine as a personal insult. It was not, it was just not a machine for you. DS.
The problem with the 2013 Mac Pro was it represented the top of the line Mac which made compromises of which those who needed workstation systems didn't want. These compromises end up in a woefully underpowered system for their needs. TO add insult to injury Apple never updated it and the compromises meant end users couldn't either.

So, IMO, people had a right to criticize it. Now if there were a 7,1 Mac Pro also available then I would agree with you. Unfortunately there wasn't.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,401
1,096
London
Yes the biggest con is no Nvidia for workstation use. For gaming 90% of people can do with an AMD card unless RT is like a must have for you.
Gaming's mostly moot on the Mac, given the lack of games. Plus games performance on macOS sucks relative to Windows, even on the same hardware.

This SSD is not an issue with ARM as Qualcomm's ARM chips in ThinkPads and Surface Pros support user upgrades and replacements.
Proprietary SSDs on the Mac are such a greedy move. Even when they used SATA and PCIe M.2 blades, they needlessly changed the connectors, just to stymie upgrades. Mainstream PCIe 4.0 blades are at least as fast as any NAND-only module Apple puts in their machines. They just wouldn't allow Apple to charge eye-watering up-sale prices for higher storage capacities. Security isn't a justification either, as drive encryption works just as well when the controller is on the blade.

If pros were truly the evangelists steering the ship, then the Mac would be foundering right now after the 6,1 Mac Pro and the MBP keyboard design issues. The pro sphere has suffered years of neglect. Instead, they're trouncing the wider PC market.
Unfortunately, this. Though it's also true that recent MBPs got slightly thicker, returned to scissor keys and brought back the ports, including MagSafe. And the 7,1, although disappointingly expensive, was the polar opposite of the 6,1, offering massive expansion and power supply capacity. So there are signs Apple are belatedly taking the pro market more seriously again.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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Frankly, and I say this as someone who very much wants Apple to keep a focus on pro customers... I don't believe this at all.

If Apple is "doomed", it's going to be for many reasons, and "they stopped catering to high-end professional users with niche use cases" is nowhere near the top of the list. It's so far down, it's irrelevant.

The idea that pros "saved" Apple is at odds with reality. What saved Apple was simplifying the product line, dumping dead weight projects, streamlining their personnel costs, and then coming out with hit after hit of consumer products. No pro wanted an iMac, everyone else did. Jobs himself thought a focus on "pro" stuff was less than ideal and never actually seemed interested in it, or really any of the more niche groups (he briefly thought about gaming for like one year in 1999, and then never again.) His platonic ideal of a Mac was the G4 Cube, which again never connected with pros. They talked up server hardware in the early 2000s but clearly that team went on and did its own thing until it got noticed and canned, because there wasn't much momentum there.

More to the point, while a ton of software still remains platform (and vendor) specific, the vast majority of software ain't these days. More and more software, including professional tools, are web-based and platform-agnostic. The economies of scale that threatened the Mac to be irrelevant back in the day just don't apply. Whatever Apple's "bad days" look like in the future, it's not going to be the mid 90s again.

If pros were truly the evangelists steering the ship, then the Mac would be foundering right now after the 6,1 Mac Pro and the MBP keyboard design issues. The pro sphere has suffered years of neglect. Instead, they're trouncing the wider PC market.

It sucks, but people need to realize that as much as they hoot and holler, the larger per-person spend of professionals doesn't mean Apple is going to care about losing you.

This is a fair and reasonable vieW. I agree with parts of it and disagree with parts of it. Furthermore it’s fair for you not to buy anything.

But to be clear, and hopefully you’re not setting up new goal,posts and a straw man, it won’t be just the pros leaving that brings down apple. It’s them being steered by a Skulley like leader who doesn’t know how to diversify production that might. The pro/enthusiast core is a core you can appeal to to help get things back on course. I’m not implying that if you don’t cater to pros, apple will die. That is not my thesis, so you don’t have to ‘buy it’.

My thesis is apple is declining because it is huge, bloated, produces very little despite being many times bigger than it was under jobs by way of product mix…and has stagnated to the point enthusiasm for its products could wane. Also it does not have a simple mix of products and is more like the performa era mix of stuff and special flower projects going everywhere but out the door, than it is the 2x2 grid era…all that AND pushing your core pro.enthusiast users away, is a bad recipe. Because the pro.enthusiasts also help keep a halo around the product mix that influences influencers and many rings out Into the market.

That said, I’ll ask, do you believe that there was a halo effect, first with the iPod and then with the iPhone? If you don’t, we very much disagree. If you do, we agree maybe more than you realize.
 
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fuchsdh

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Unfortunately, this. Though it's also true that recent MBPs got slightly thicker, returned to scissor keys and brought back the ports, including MagSafe. And the 7,1, although disappointingly expensive, was the polar opposite of the 6,1, offering massive expansion and power supply capacity. So there are signs Apple are belatedly taking the pro market more seriously again.
They did create a pro workflow team, and there have been changes. I'm sure we'll have to wait another couple of years for more people to leave Apple and write articles to tell us just what was going on at Apple during those years that they were so apparently rudderless.*

But I also think Apple is leaning harder into the concept of "pro" as "high end". If you need gobs of power, I suspect the new Mac Pro will absolutely fit that bill (otherwise they would have just said "The Studio is good enough" and called it a day,) and for the vast majority of people, even many pros, it would have. But the bigger issue is flexibility. Apple seems to be returning to an area where, as long as you're willing to pay, you can get that (the thicker, more port-filled MBPs, or the extra ports on the Studio.) Realistically the only things the Mac lineup is now missing is internal expansion and upgradeable components. The problem is that both of those (and especially the latter) are at odds with their consolidated approach to computing across the rest of the lineup. For the vast majority of users, the Apple Silicon Macs are better than the Intel machines they replaced. For the people who want to upgrade their RAM, or use an eGPU, or upgrade their GPU, or stick in a PCIe slot, they're not. What percentage of pros that really is, and how much Apple is willing to bend, is unclear, and why I think the 8,1 will be so interesting (and hopefully closer to the 7,1 than the Studio, but we will see.) I can't imagine they would sell a ton of $5K+ computers if there's no possibility of expansion, because you could get a significant percentage of the power for much cheaper if there's no other benefits. I mean I went with an eGPU + Mac mini setup just because financially it made more sense where I could just chuck the mini every two years and get another one and still come out ahead on cost versus loading up my Mac Pro, and since I'm only doing some freelance work versus making the machine my livelihood I couldn't justify it.
This is a fair and reasonable vieW. I agree with parts of it and disagree with parts of it. Furthermore it’s fair for you not to buy anything.

But to be clear, and hopefully you’re not setting up new goal,posts and a straw man, it won’t be just the pros leaving that brings down apple. It’s them being steered by a Skulley like leader who doesn’t know how to diversify production that might. The pro/enthusiast core is a core you can appeal to to help get things back on course. I’m not implying that if you don’t cater to pros, apple will die. That is not my thesis, so you don’t have to ‘buy it’.

My thesis is apple is declining because it is huge, bloated, produces very little despite being many times bigger than it was under jobs by way of product mix…and has stagnated to the point enthusiasm for its products could wane. Also it does not have a simple mix of products and is more like the performa era mix of stuff and special flower projects going everywhere but out the door, than it is the 2x2 grid era…all that AND pushing your core pro.enthusiast users away, is a bad recipe. Because the pro.enthusiasts also help keep a halo around the product mix that influences influencers and many rings out Into the market.

That said, I’ll ask, do you believe that there was a halo effect, first with the iPod and then with the iPhone? If you don’t, we very much disagree. If you do, we agree maybe more than you realize.
I guess I just don't agree Apple is declining, though I will admit we won't really know except with hindsight; certainly Ballmer's Microsoft had a couple years where their financials hid the truth of the company, and Jobs himself felt that Sculley did the same. But Apple hasn't really repeated Sculley's mistakes—they've grown their market share and profits, whereas Jobs felt Sculley prioritized the latter and hurt the former, leading to the death spiral (and then leading to the clones desperation move, where they were outclassed on product and price.) Those market conditions just don't exist right now. Apple is an increasingly novel product with no peer or clear competitors (that is, of course, not really any consolation if they also aren't targeting your needs.)

I guess I don't disagree with your thesis, but I just don't think the actual conditions match enough for it to hold true. Apple sends all those product samples to YouTubers who don't really actually need that power, but clearly are the tastemakers (and we are all old and irrelevant :D ) I do think Apple would do better to pare back its products and make it clearer in areas (the Mac I think outside of legacy Cook products has done this pretty well, though we don't really know what the "final form" of the lineup will be post-transition; the iPad lineup makes incredibly little sense to the point I think even regular people rather than enthusiasts have issues.) But to some degree for a growth-related company it makes sense to spread out and capture more dollars. Maybe this is going to be another part of the cycle where they'll have to get burned and hurt a bit before they refocus their attention.

If there's any existential threat to Apple right now, I'd say it's their reliance on China, combined with the threat that regulators might try to break up their vertical integration and thus kneecap the quality of their products at a fundamental, bedrock level. An Apple that can't make hardware and software together defeats much of the point of what modern Apple is good at. A secondary problem I think is that they aren't willing to support iOS as a peer to MacOS (no pro apps so they're ceding the entire market to competitors) but I dunno how much that matters, because pros again.

*It still does boggle my mind, especially rereading the development of the iMac and G4 Cube... the Ive of the late 90s and early 2000s seems strongly in favor of simplicity while still believing in modular flexibility; I'm not really sure if it was the loss of Jobs that removed a more practical element from Apple's decision-making or not. Jobs and Ive created a culture where the designers absolutely dominated the engineering side of Apple, but in the early years that didn't actually result in anything like the "total thin appliance" Apple we've gotten. I wonder how much of that is boredom, or how much is trying to push the envelope as much as possible to break through to a new paradigm.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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They did create a pro workflow team, and there have been changes. I'm sure we'll have to wait another couple of years for more people to leave Apple and write articles to tell us just what was going on at Apple during those years that they were so apparently rudderless.*

But I also think Apple is leaning harder into the concept of "pro" as "high end". If you need gobs of power, I suspect the new Mac Pro will absolutely fit that bill (otherwise they would have just said "The Studio is good enough" and called it a day,) and for the vast majority of people, even many pros, it would have. But the bigger issue is flexibility. Apple seems to be returning to an area where, as long as you're willing to pay, you can get that (the thicker, more port-filled MBPs, or the extra ports on the Studio.) Realistically the only things the Mac lineup is now missing is internal expansion and upgradeable components. The problem is that both of those (and especially the latter) are at odds with their consolidated approach to computing across the rest of the lineup. For the vast majority of users, the Apple Silicon Macs are better than the Intel machines they replaced. For the people who want to upgrade their RAM, or use an eGPU, or upgrade their GPU, or stick in a PCIe slot, they're not. What percentage of pros that really is, and how much Apple is willing to bend, is unclear, and why I think the 8,1 will be so interesting (and hopefully closer to the 7,1 than the Studio, but we will see.) I can't imagine they would sell a ton of $5K+ computers if there's no possibility of expansion, because you could get a significant percentage of the power for much cheaper if there's no other benefits. I mean I went with an eGPU + Mac mini setup just because financially it made more sense where I could just chuck the mini every two years and get another one and still come out ahead on cost versus loading up my Mac Pro, and since I'm only doing some freelance work versus making the machine my livelihood I couldn't justify it.

I guess I just don't agree Apple is declining, though I will admit we won't really know except with hindsight; certainly Ballmer's Microsoft had a couple years where their financials hid the truth of the company, and Jobs himself felt that Sculley did the same. But Apple hasn't really repeated Sculley's mistakes—they've grown their market share and profits, whereas Jobs felt Sculley prioritized the latter and hurt the former, leading to the death spiral (and then leading to the clones desperation move, where they were outclassed on product and price.) Those market conditions just don't exist right now. Apple is an increasingly novel product with no peer or clear competitors (that is, of course, not really any consolation if they also aren't targeting your needs.)

I guess I don't disagree with your thesis, but I just don't think the actual conditions match enough for it to hold true. Apple sends all those product samples to YouTubers who don't really actually need that power, but clearly are the tastemakers (and we are all old and irrelevant :D ) I do think Apple would do better to pare back its products and make it clearer in areas (the Mac I think outside of legacy Cook products has done this pretty well, though we don't really know what the "final form" of the lineup will be post-transition; the iPad lineup makes incredibly little sense to the point I think even regular people rather than enthusiasts have issues.) But to some degree for a growth-related company it makes sense to spread out and capture more dollars. Maybe this is going to be another part of the cycle where they'll have to get burned and hurt a bit before they refocus their attention.

If there's any existential threat to Apple right now, I'd say it's their reliance on China, combined with the threat that regulators might try to break up their vertical integration and thus kneecap the quality of their products at a fundamental, bedrock level. An Apple that can't make hardware and software together defeats much of the point of what modern Apple is good at. A secondary problem I think is that they aren't willing to support iOS as a peer to MacOS (no pro apps so they're ceding the entire market to competitors) but I dunno how much that matters, because pros again.

*It still does boggle my mind, especially rereading the development of the iMac and G4 Cube... the Ive of the late 90s and early 2000s seems strongly in favor of simplicity while still believing in modular flexibility; I'm not really sure if it was the loss of Jobs that removed a more practical element from Apple's decision-making or not. Jobs and Ive created a culture where the designers absolutely dominated the engineering side of Apple, but in the early years that didn't actually result in anything like the "total thin appliance" Apple we've gotten. I wonder how much of that is boredom, or how much is trying to push the envelope as much as possible to break through to a new paradigm.

That is a very reasonable assessment and I think good and fair minded folks can see it differently. To your point, it's such a big successful money maker, that you might not 'feel' the results for years. Much the same to the Skulley era; apple rotted yet was still making record revenues on the back of older product successes. So to your point, it takes time to tell.

Of course I do think apple is in decline when they cannot ship a simple upgraded intel box every year, and it's evidence of rot. That they do not update/advance their software in any reasonable way (Pages after more than a decade, STILL, cannot do a simple table of authorities (so high school kids can cite authorities on their research papers) that was done by word/perfect in the 80s) is more evidence. The absolutely lame updates from the iPhone 13->14 is yet more. This is a company that is doing less and less and spending more and more to achieve it.

But all your points are super reasonable and you may have the better argument and may well be right (and frankly I hope you are because I do like apple).
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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I guess I don't disagree with your thesis, but I just don't think the actual conditions match enough for it to hold true. Apple sends all those product samples to YouTubers who don't really actually need that power, but clearly are the tastemakers (and we are all old and irrelevant :D ) I do think Apple would do better to pare back its products and make it clearer in areas (the Mac I think outside of legacy Cook products has done this pretty well, though we don't really know what the "final form" of the lineup will be post-transition; the iPad lineup makes incredibly little sense to the point I think even regular people rather than enthusiasts have issues.) But to some degree for a growth-related company it makes sense to spread out and capture more dollars. Maybe this is going to be another part of the cycle where they'll have to get burned and hurt a bit before they refocus their attention.

If there's any existential threat to Apple right now, I'd say it's their reliance on China, combined with the threat that regulators might try to break up their vertical integration and thus kneecap the quality of their products at a fundamental, bedrock level. An Apple that can't make hardware and software together defeats much of the point of what modern Apple is good at. A secondary problem I think is that they aren't willing to support iOS as a peer to MacOS (no pro apps so they're ceding the entire market to competitors) but I dunno how much that matters, because pros again.

*It still does boggle my mind, especially rereading the development of the iMac and G4 Cube... the Ive of the late 90s and early 2000s seems strongly in favor of simplicity while still believing in modular flexibility; I'm not really sure if it was the loss of Jobs that removed a more practical element from Apple's decision-making or not. Jobs and Ive created a culture where the designers absolutely dominated the engineering side of Apple, but in the early years that didn't actually result in anything like the "total thin appliance" Apple we've gotten. I wonder how much of that is boredom, or how much is trying to push the envelope as much as possible to break through to a new paradigm.

... Sorry was called away, back to comment on a few more of interesting points you made.

We disagree that YouTubers are 'tastemakers'. They are mostly monkey clown show artists. Who influences them? Most of them do not know squat about tech in any meaningful way. But they have 'friends' and those friends in tech who they respect. They say, you know, the unix thing Mac OS X is a big deal. And then the monkey clown show goes on and regurgitates it. The people I'm talking about, and mentioned in previous posts, generally are very quiet. They are not looking for the spot light. But they are the real deal tech guys. Or the real deal pro/creator guys. They speak very softly, but the YouTubers tend to lean and go to those folks to resolve real issues. So they are the tastemakers for the other tastemakers. And that's my point about 'rings of influence'. The group I'm talking about here is not a huge demographic, but it is a very important one IMO. The reverberations from them carry for quite a while.

Your point about the performa-like non simplicity of the iPad line, I would argue, is another point going to my Skulley/Post-Skulley era decline IMO.

I think it's hard to argue apple has NOT declined relative to the crazy period when Jobs was back. Think how many amazing product upgrades we got, on an annual beat back in 2007 for example. All the iLife and iWork apps got huge upgrades. iTunes got big upgrades. MacOS got huge upgrades. An entire LINE of iPods got huge meaningful upgrades. Oh and yea, teeny tiny thing called the iPhone gets released with obviously titanic proportions. Their R&D budget was a sliver, maybe, at this point, 1% of what it is now, and yet, they were able to produce on so many fronts. Even in 2008, they managed to do all that. We got a Mac Pro upgrade as well as updates to all the above.

Apple is producing less and less despite having more and more. To me that is the ultimate proof of decline.

That said, where I think reasonable people can disagree and I think where you might be at is this. Sure, it's tough to keep up with that 'golden age' and sure, it's down from there, but that doesnt necessitate the opposite view that it's dying. You can progress at slower pace and in fact that may be inevitable as companies grow older and bigger, yet they are still on successful trajectories. As with most things in life, the options are not binary but varying degrees. And that may be the case. But at some point, the trajectory stops pointing upwards or even laterally and points downwards. Reasonable people can disagree if we've gotten there yet. Sadly, I do believe that is where we are today. The ship is taking on water, and sinking, but the band is still playing and unaware.

Yet another place where good and reasonable people can disagree is this. Even if you assume my pessimism and that apple is in decline, it does not necessitate that it will die or things will go to bankruptcy or that things cannot be improved. And that's my hope. That just like they were slapped upside their head and embarrassed by the trashcan Mac Pro, someone can slap some sense into them and get them to right the ship and do the right things here. There is still time to do so. The key is to NOT have a bunch of apologist lackeys saying drilling for oil on the titanic is a good idea, and calling out bad directions, LOUDLY, is important to avoid icebergs (to mix a lot of metaphors).
 

mode11

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It still does boggle my mind, especially rereading the development of the iMac and G4 Cube... the Ive of the late 90s and early 2000s seems strongly in favor of simplicity while still believing in modular flexibility; I'm not really sure if it was the loss of Jobs that removed a more practical element from Apple's decision-making or not.

The iMac G3 didn't offer much upgradability, aside from the RAM and HDD. The iMac G4 made things harder, with internal upgrades requiring care not to damage the video cable, and repasting the shell / heatsink afterwards. The Cube innards were easy to access, though its design sharply limited GPU options.

At that time, computer hardware was still rapidly evolving, so it was kind of unthinkable for a computer to not be upgradable. G4 towers went from a single 450MHz CPU to dual 1420MHz CPUs in just four years. Once computers got fast enough that most people were satisfied most of the time, the need to accommodate upgrades and expansions was less pressing.
 
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