MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

[avro707]

just wish apple would read these kind of threads and understand that they yet again pushes away the most advanced users and die hard fans. It is really sad. I never thought they would actually be content with releasing a mac pro that is worse for 3d than their old one.

Why bother even wishing for Apple to cover traditional workstation bases, we can go HP, Lenovo or Puget to get a machine that will do those jobs perfectly. Without Apple-tax pricing.

Apple won’t change. So we should leave them.

 

[innerproduct]

Why bother even wishing for Apple to cover traditional workstation bases, we can go HP, Lenovo or Puget to get a machine that will do those jobs perfectly. Without Apple-tax pricing.

Apple won’t change. So we should leave them.

You are right of course. I just feel that pc lack a lot of QOL when it comes to all other aspects of computing. They have boring/ugly designs and lack interface flow as well as a lack of great monitors.
I have tried to go PC many times since the 90s and always been pragmatic in the end. After all, I need to solve business needs and macs have never been great for 3d. Not for realtime and not for offline. Right now, a lot of things are closer than ever though so it gets frustrating that instead of following through on the macpro 2019 with a something that had about 2x max compute perf we got that ****ing turd/taunt of a machine called “pro” but just an imac in a big box. Oh well. I guess I’ll go back to the more productive screaming into the void…

 

[mode11]

PCs aren’t too bad. I’ve been smoothing off the various rough edges since building a W11 desktop recently, and have now mostly got things as I want them. Given I’m only a week or two into a pretty major transition, I have say it’s gone pretty smoothly. I still feel macOS is more polished overall, but I had years to bed in with my old machine. In any case, I still have a MBP on hand.

I made my decision based not just on current products (which are great in many ways), but looking at Apple’s priorities over the long haul. Their long-term refusal to make reasonably priced desktop machines with decent GPUs has affected the whole 3D ecosystem on the Mac. Even if Apple changed direction tomorrow, it would take years for developers / users to trust them enough to build much momentum.

 

[avro707]

PCs aren’t too bad. I’ve been smoothing off the various rough edges since building a W11 desktop recently, and have now mostly got things as I want them. Given I’m only a week or two into a pretty major transition, I have say it’s gone pretty smoothly. I still feel macOS is more polished overall, but I had years to bed in with my old machine. In any case, I still have a MBP on hand.

I made my decision based not just on current products (which are great in many ways), but looking at Apple’s priorities over the long haul. Their long-term refusal to make reasonably priced desktop machines with decent GPUs has affected the whole 3D ecosystem on the Mac. Even if Apple changed direction tomorrow, it would take years for developers / users to trust them enough to build much momentum.

W11 is pretty polished - maybe not quite MacOS but if it means having a more suitable computer for your needs then it’s not a great drama.

I have Sonoma at the moment and I’m some respects I think it’s a step backwards from Ventura and Monterey.

 

[maikerukun]

Presumably you’re using 4:4:4 mode?

I think so lol. I haven't tested all the features just yet cuz I'm deep in about 84 more VFX shots that need to be done in the next 12 days for this film. Then I'll go all out testing it

 

[maikerukun]

If you create a virtual display in Parsec on the Windows host and set that to a fixed size and then make the Mac client use that size in Windowed mode, it won't be fuzzy, but it also wont be fullscreen if you're using 5K monitors. I definitely would prefere a full-screen 5K mode but part of the reason I use Apple 5K monitors is that I don't like the fuzzy rescaling that Mac OS does on 4K displays. Hopefully Parsec fixes it to stream full 5K rather than the 4K limit it currently has.

Thanks for the tip. I'll give this a try tomorrow whenever I take lunch

 

[maikerukun]

I just wish apple would read these kind of threads and understand that they yet again pushes away the most advanced users and die hard fans. It is really sad. I never thought they would actually be content with releasing a mac pro that is worse for 3d than their old one.
So annoying that the m2ultra is such a nice cpu/gpu combo for an imac level computer but there was nothing higher end coming. Knowing this, I wonder if there ever will be a high end mac again. Let’s imagine an m3ultra late 2024 with 50% faster performance across the board. Still not on par with pc gpus. Heck, not even at 100% gpu performance increase it would be close to pc. Just read about a guy on the redshift forum that is returning a maxed out m2ultra studio after evaluation in his workflow where he hoped to use it as a front end/designer workstation. But since IPR perf on heavy scenes is not on par with pc he would be in a disadvantageous situation compared to his competitors. I’m sure that for some people the ultra would still be enough. Still on the fence personally but more and more leaning on skipping this iteration. Probably getting a maxed out m3 mbp16 when that comes around and keep using PC for the heavier 3d stuff.

You nailed it. It's putting us in a very weird situation. And you want to know how fast of a waterslide it is? It's not winding, it's not minutes long to the bottom. It's straight down with a drop floor and only takes seconds. I haven't done a single 3D render on my Mac Pro since I got the Puget :/. There's simply no point. My Mac Pro, as we know, a GPU MAXED OUT Monster...4 GPUS...FOUR w6800x's...and it's only about 33% faster than 2 3090's. My Puget is about 16x faster...The worst about that? My M2 Max MacBook Pro...is about 75% SLOWER than the Mac Pro...It would need to have FOUR M2 Max Chips glued together to be as fast as...the 2019 Mac Pro...which again, is like 16x slower than the Puget...which by the way only has 2 RTX4090's in it, and was $25,000 cheaper.

I will of course and obviously still use my MacBook Pro when I'm on the road for running Cinemad 4D...but I also have Parsec now...which means even then, I'll probably be streaming the Puget and running that Via the MacBook...I really don't think Apple is grasping how quickly even the absolute die hards just...fall into the lap of a high end PC once they start working on it.

Even now, the VFX shots that I'm working on...I'm only doing this set of 20 on the Mac right now because they're mostly composites, removals, replacements, and tracks...NONE OF IT is 3D. Those shots are STRICTLY on the Puget now.

So to your point @innerproduct , I agree...the Mac mini and Mac Studio ARE DEFINITELY ENOUGH if you are just doing 2D composites, Motion Graphics, Tracks, Removals, or other GPU light VFX, but the second anything needs to be 3D and not just 3D composites into EXR frames, but straight up 3D sequences...it all falls apart.

To reiterate;

Puget 16x 2019 Mac Pro in GPU
2019 MP 7.1 4x 2023 M2 Max Mac Studio

That's how far behind Apple GPU power is to Nvidia and even their own AMD collab.

If I were Apple? The ONLY solution I see right now is to BUY PARSEC, make it razor sharp in the stream, create a farm for storage and access, and sell it as the new version of Bootcamp.

...or somehow glue together 4 M2 Ultras to beat their 2019 Best of the best, or like 40 M2 Ultras to keep up with a high end Puget.

 

[maikerukun]

PCs aren’t too bad. I’ve been smoothing off the various rough edges since building a W11 desktop recently, and have now mostly got things as I want them. Given I’m only a week or two into a pretty major transition, I have say it’s gone pretty smoothly. I still feel macOS is more polished overall, but I had years to bed in with my old machine. In any case, I still have a MBP on hand.

I made my decision based not just on current products (which are great in many ways), but looking at Apple’s priorities over the long haul. Their long-term refusal to make reasonably priced desktop machines with decent GPUs has affected the whole 3D ecosystem on the Mac. Even if Apple changed direction tomorrow, it would take years for developers / users to trust them enough to build much momentum.

...Which leads to the OTHER problem with all this. Artists who build their own studios, firms, production companies, etc...BUILD ENTIRE ECOSYSTEMS AROUND THESE THINGS...and so to just hang folks like YOU out to dry after you've spent YEARS building what you have...feels like an actual stab directly in the chest and while staring you in the eyes.

Coming back to them for many will be hard as hell after investing all the money people are dropping right now into a PC wing for their companies.

All of this said, if they announced a surprise M2 Ultra Mac Pro that TAKES 4090's tomorrow...well, I'd have to buy that LOLOL. But for every 1 of me, there's 9 more that won't come back so easily. And that's the other problem.

Also, it's wild that I've spent so much of this first few weeks with the Puget looking for tools, applications, backgrounds, and ways to make the damn thing as close to MacOS as possible LOL. Genuine hypnotism...what a devious game.

 

[maikerukun]

W11 is pretty polished - maybe not quite MacOS but if it means having a more suitable computer for your needs then it’s not a great drama.

I have Sonoma at the moment and I’m some respects I think it’s a step backwards from Ventura and Monterey.

I hope that doesn't mean it isn't a worthy upgrade. Really hoping whatever those respects may be, are fixable via updates and iterations...

 

[mattspace]

If I were Apple? The ONLY solution I see right now is to BUY PARSEC, make it razor sharp in the stream, create a farm for storage and access, and sell it as the new version of Bootcamp.

They could start with just making Apple Remote Desktop support multiple screens to multiple screens. It already does multiple screens to a single screen.

Don’t wish for Apple to buy something you use, they’ll ruin it.

 

[Seiko4169]

"Don’t wish for Apple to buy something you use, they’ll ruin it."

^ Funny

 

[mode11]

Also, it's wild that I've spent so much of this first few weeks with the Puget looking for tools, applications, backgrounds, and ways to make the damn thing as close to MacOS as possible LOL. Genuine hypnotism...what a devious game.

It's not really a contradiction though. At the end of the day, our problem isn't with macOS, but with Apple's hardware offerings. I've tamed some aspects of Windows to bring some Mac-like simplicity (e.g. by turning off various lock screen features, and the worst excesses of Edge) and added back some useful Mac features (e.g. QuickLook, display brightness control via the keyboard). But I'd rather keep Windows relatively vanilla than try and force it to be something it's not; long term, I think it makes more sense to adapt your mindset rather than fight the change (not that it's that different most of the time).

Little things surprise me about Windows though, such as not being able to wake a desktop PC from sleep via BT peripherals. A Logitech Unifying dongle works of course. Got myself an MX Keys to work with that, as well as solve a bunch of minor other issues. Being able to use it with the MBP when I've got that docked is useful too.

 

[maikerukun]

It's not really a contradiction though. At the end of the day, our problem isn't with macOS, but with Apple's hardware offerings. I've tamed some aspects of Windows to bring some Mac-like simplicity (e.g. by turning off various lock screen features, and the worst excesses of Edge) and added back some useful Mac features (e.g. QuickLook, display brightness control via the keyboard). But I'd rather keep Windows relatively vanilla than try and force it to be something it's not; long term, I think it makes more sense to adapt your mindset rather than fight the change (not that it's that different most of the time).

Little things surprise me about Windows though, such as not being able to wake a desktop PC from sleep via BT peripherals. A Logitech Unifying dongle works of course. Got myself an MX Keys to work with that, as well as solve a bunch of minor other issues. Being able to use it with the MBP when I've got that docked is useful too.

Yeah you're not wrong...definitely better to just get comfortable with the new environment and keep the changes to a minimum. I just didn't realize there were so many mods to make it like MacOS

 

[Rimmsi]

It's not really a contradiction though. At the end of the day, our problem isn't with macOS, but with Apple's hardware offerings. I've tamed some aspects of Windows to bring some Mac-like simplicity (e.g. by turning off various lock screen features, and the worst excesses of Edge) and added back some useful Mac features (e.g. QuickLook, display brightness control via the keyboard). But I'd rather keep Windows relatively vanilla than try and force it to be something it's not; long term, I think it makes more sense to adapt your mindset rather than fight the change (not that it's that different most of the time).

Little things surprise me about Windows though, such as not being able to wake a desktop PC from sleep via BT peripherals. A Logitech Unifying dongle works of course. Got myself an MX Keys to work with that, as well as solve a bunch of minor other issues. Being able to use it with the MBP when I've got that docked is useful too.

How did you manage to get the keyboard brightness control working? On my MP7.1, I cannot control the brightness in MacOS or Windows using the Apple Magic Keyboard. I have EIZO display. Thank you.

 

[singhs.apps]

Yeah you're not wrong...definitely better to just get comfortable with the new environment and keep the changes to a minimum. I just didn't realize there were so many mods to make it like MacOS

just don’t get into that mess. Keep Windows vanilla, else user indiscretion get blamed on windows.

It’ll turn into a c*****rf**k pretty fast.

 

[ekwipt]

How did you manage to get the keyboard brightness control working? On my MP7.1, I cannot control the brightness in MacOS or Windows using the Apple Magic Keyboard. I have EIZO display. Thank you.

Download Monitor control:

GitHub - MonitorControl/MonitorControl: 🖥 Control your display's brightness & volume on your Mac as if it was a native Apple Display. Use Apple Keyboard keys or custom shortcuts. Shows the native macOS OSDs.

🖥 Control your display's brightness & volume on your Mac as if it was a native Apple Display. Use Apple Keyboard keys or custom shortcuts. Shows the native macOS OSDs. - MonitorControl/Moni...

github.com

 

[mode11]

How did you manage to get the keyboard brightness control working? On my MP7.1, I cannot control the brightness in MacOS or Windows using the Apple Magic Keyboard. I have EIZO display. Thank you.

Monitorcontrol app on Mac and Twinkle Tray on PC. Uses DDC to control the monitor(s). Eizo displays in particular might use their own protocol, but both apps are free so give them a try. There’s loads of alternatives to both (e.g. Lunar on the Mac).

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Lol I appreciate the optimism but youd get better results yelling into the void.

The mac pro is a super teeny tiny fraction of apples overall revenue/profits and has been run by MBA people for the last decade. They couldn't give two ***** about the product let alone the actual users. The sole purpose of throwing the M2 ultra chip in this computer was so tim cook and/or the cfo can say "we completed the apple silicon transition" on their next earnings call. We've been a long way out from "i'd rather be a pirate than join the navy"

Here's how Apple customers use their Macs, says report - 9to5Mac

Last week CIRP released a report showing the mix of Macs owned by customers with MacBooks making up the majority....

9to5mac.com

I would argue that margin on Mac pros is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than other brackets, and so the actual profit/revenue share of Mac pros punches way above it's weight and could make up 20%. So not as marginal as many speculate.

Furthermore, it’s important, not to ignore the lessons of the past. The importance of the halo "think different" users shouldn’t be ignored ... it is the old lost argument that somehow the John Scully era of making more money but losing the halo "think different" influence (because innovation/development went to poop and the think different crowd moved elsewhere) was a good course of action, and history has soundly proven that wrong (eg see apple's many "think different" ads apologizing for being non innovating losers and that they've changed back to their non-Scully innovative roots).

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

It's not really a contradiction though. At the end of the day, our problem isn't with macOS, but with Apple's hardware offerings. I've tamed some aspects of Windows to bring some Mac-like simplicity (e.g. by turning off various lock screen features, and the worst excesses of Edge) and added back some useful Mac features (e.g. QuickLook, display brightness control via the keyboard). But I'd rather keep Windows relatively vanilla than try and force it to be something it's not; long term, I think it makes more sense to adapt your mindset rather than fight the change (not that it's that different most of the time).

Little things surprise me about Windows though, such as not being able to wake a desktop PC from sleep via BT peripherals. A Logitech Unifying dongle works of course. Got myself an MX Keys to work with that, as well as solve a bunch of minor other issues. Being able to use it with the MBP when I've got that docked is useful too.

They finally added a multi column browser to ther pro file browser on windows.

You Should Replace Windows 11's File Explorer With This App

Don't like the new File Explorer in Windows 11? Wishing for something more useful? The free Files app is all you need, to add custom touches, and seamless file management.

lifehacker.com

 

[impulse462]

Here's how Apple customers use their Macs, says report - 9to5Mac

Last week CIRP released a report showing the mix of Macs owned by customers with MacBooks making up the majority....

9to5mac.com

View attachment 2230926
I would argue that margin on Mac pros is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than other brackets, and so the actual profit/revenue share of Mac pros punches way above it's weight and could make up 20%. So not as marginal as many speculate.

Furthermore, it’s important, not to ignore the lessons of the past. The importance of the halo "think different" users shouldn’t be ignored ... it is the old lost argument that somehow the John Scully era of making more money but losing the halo "think different" influence (because innovation/development went to poop and the think different crowd moved elsewhere) was a good course of action, and history has soundly proven that wrong (eg see apple's many "think different" ads apologizing for being non innovating losers and that they've changed back to their non-Scully innovative roots).

Huh thats pretty interesting actually; pretty surprised at how low the imac is tbh. Totally agree about the halo product of course. Usually it's supposed to represent the "best" of what the company can make in a particular category.

 

[maikerukun]

Why bother even wishing for Apple to cover traditional workstation bases, we can go HP, Lenovo or Puget to get a machine that will do those jobs perfectly. Without Apple-tax pricing.

Apple won’t change. So we should leave them.

Just laughing at your signature LOLOL.

 

[maikerukun]

You are right of course. I just feel that pc lack a lot of QOL when it comes to all other aspects of computing. They have boring/ugly designs and lack interface flow as well as a lack of great monitors.
I have tried to go PC many times since the 90s and always been pragmatic in the end. After all, I need to solve business needs and macs have never been great for 3d. Not for realtime and not for offline. Right now, a lot of things are closer than ever though so it gets frustrating that instead of following through on the macpro 2019 with a something that had about 2x max compute perf we got that ****ing turd/taunt of a machine called “pro” but just an imac in a big box. Oh well. I guess I’ll go back to the more productive screaming into the void…

I'll be honest, ever since I pulled the trigger on my Puget, the Mac Pro gets almost no love :/ The MacBook Pro on the other hand is my go to Mac right now. It's really sad. Because the M2 Max MacBook Pro is MORE powerful than the 2019 Mac Pro when it comes to Apple's range of software, and when it comes to Adobe's range of software, all optimized for Apple Silicon as well...and so the only thing the Mac Pro was a monster at "3D", has been overshadowed by the new King of the Kaiju walking around my house lol. And even worse...editing and working 2D on the MacBook is making me question if I should just pull the trigger on a maxed out M2 Ultra Mac Pro so that I can leave my MacBook Pro in my backpack where it belongs.

And this is making me feel like...this was exactly Apple's plan. Because frankly, if you have an M2 Max MacBook Pro, a 2019 Mac Pro can only beat it at ONE THING...and the second you pick up anything running 2 RTX 3090's or bigger, you've now effectively killed the need for your 2019 Mac Pro completely.

A very strange situation they've decided to throw us in SMH.

 

[maikerukun]

Huh thats pretty interesting actually; pretty surprised at how low the imac is tbh. Totally agree about the halo product of course. Usually it's supposed to represent the "best" of what the company can make in a particular category.

Turns out the 2019 Mac Pro was actually doing quite well at 10% adoption rate given it had one year before the pandemic kicked in. Shocked they are willing to make a new iMac but not go balls to the wall with a new Mac Pro.

 

[singhs.apps]

Here's how Apple customers use their Macs, says report - 9to5Mac

Last week CIRP released a report showing the mix of Macs owned by customers with MacBooks making up the majority....

9to5mac.com

View attachment 2230926
I would argue that margin on Mac pros is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than other brackets, and so the actual profit/revenue share of Mac pros punches way above it's weight and could make up 20%. So not as marginal as many speculate.

Furthermore, it’s important, not to ignore the lessons of the past. The importance of the halo "think different" users shouldn’t be ignored ... it is the old lost argument that somehow the John Scully era of making more money but losing the halo "think different" influence (because innovation/development went to poop and the think different crowd moved elsewhere) was a good course of action, and history has soundly proven that wrong (eg see apple's many "think different" ads apologizing for being non innovating losers and that they've changed back to their non-Scully innovative roots).

Not sure how comprehensive the results are, but it appears that the iMacs are used professionally lesser than even the Mac pros.

Yet quite a few here were howling viz Apple’s bottom line for Mac pros, while the iMacs have received far more frequent updates.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Not sure how comprehensive the results are, but it appears that the iMacs are less used professionally than even the Mac pros.

Yet quiet a few here were howling viz Apple’s bottom line for Mac pros, while the iMacs have received far more frequent updates.

Yea not sure I fully buy into that being accurate overall. But it does suggest that they may be a touch more significant than mere nothing.