MP 7,1 Mac Pro Apple Silicon is going to eat our lunch

[rondocap]

I love the 2019 Mac Pro - stacked with a 28 core CPU and dual W6800X duos, it's a beast for video work.

The new M1 Max mac is super impressive - it may not have the horsepower of the Mac Pro, but the software optimizations if you work with pro res and certain codecs is impressive, acceleration on the chip.

They even said it was equal to a Mac Pro with 8 cores AND Afterburner in Pro res, that's scary fast!

So...when the Mac Pro Apple Silicon comes, which undoubtedly will have even more powerful specs - I think our 2019 Mac Pros will definitely be a tough proposition price to performance. (honestly they are now already at that point, as much as I like the new GPUs and W6800X duo specifically)

Exciting times regardless, and I look forward to still enjoying the Mac Pro until that day comes - and I'm itching to try the Max and see how it compares in real world use for video work; heck it may even be close already due to optimizations!

 

[bsbeamer]

With the past few generations of MacPro, generally found "max upgraded" laptop models purchased 3-5 years after the MacPro release were close enough performance for 80% of the work. This might be closing that gap a little bit, but direct comparison is going to be more difficult since AS literally cannot do everything an Intel model could (that's good and bad).

As much as I'm intrigued by these new MacBook Pro's, I cannot justify the purchase to upgrade from a 2019 Core i9 model with 5500M for laptop machine at this time. Based on the budgets and proposals I've been going through lately, seems most small and medium sized business cannot justify either. Really hope 2022 is more normal for everyone. Trickle down effect from COVID budget reductions are impacting too many in video production.

 

[startergo]

If the new NotchBookPro could run my X86 Virtual machine it would have been the perfect laptop. I know I can run ARM virtual Windows, but I can't convert X86 Virtual machine to an ARM without losing all the licenses inside (around 15K).

 

[deconstruct60]

I love the 2019 Mac Pro - stacked with a 28 core CPU and dual W6800X duos, it's a beast for video work.

The new M1 Max mac is super impressive - it may not have the horsepower of the Mac Pro, but the software optimizations if you work with pro res and certain codecs is impressive, acceleration on the chip.

They even said it was equal to a Mac Pro with 8 cores AND Afterburner in Pro res, that's scary fast!

Apple is cherry picking a bit on the Afterburner comparison stuff. The numbers they are throwing around are for ProRes 422 . Afterburner has more traction on ProRes RAW which Apple isn't really quoting numbers on. These new decoders are suppose to do ProRes RAW (the tech specs page says so) , but they aren't doing drumbeats about that performance. Afterburner was suppose to be the end of proxies ( for higher end cameras.). That isn't quite what they have done here.

The ProRes 422 is significant for them because that is what the iPhone 13's will be producing . The "M1 Max" will be good at transcoding ProRes to ProRes since there are two en/de coders. One can decode while the other encodes. ( Afterburner can't walk and chew gum at the same time).

It is a likely a decent previous to a even bigger M-series die though with four ProRes de/encoders and much smaller need for Afterburner. Similar for a bigger die running Logic and lower pressure to get a DSP card(s). I doubt there will be much iteration on either Afterburner firmware updates or another faster version later.

So...when the Mac Pro Apple Silicon comes, which undoubtedly will have even more powerful specs - I think our 2019 Mac Pros will definitely be a tough proposition price to performance. (honestly they are now already at that point, as much as I like the new GPUs and W6800X duo specifically)

Can't get to 64GB of RAM without switching out to a Max. To buy more RAM you need to buy more cores. I wouldn't declare the price/performance over for Mac Pro 2019 that put large investments in 3rd party RAM, storage, and non MPX GPUs.

Apple is charging $200 to go from 8 to 10 cores on the M1 Pro. That is a $100 per "P" core upgrade. Another $100 for two GPU cores (to get a "full" M1 Pro). They aren't shooting for super low cost leader there.

Exciting times regardless, and I look forward to still enjoying the Mac Pro until that day comes - and I'm itching to try the Max and see how it compares in real world use for video work; heck it may even be close already due to optimizations!

The days of folks strapping a Mac Pro into a ruggedized cart on wheels to do work in the field is going to be lots tougher to sell as a solution. And long delay feedback loops between shooting and "dailies" will shrink.

The "low end" Mac Pro with 8-12 CPU and 580X - 5700 GPU there in lie more shorter term trouble. The iMac 27" is in even deeper "hot water" now though.

 

[deconstruct60]

Really hope 2022 is more normal for everyone. Trickle down effect from COVID budget reductions are impacting too many in video production.

M1 Pro and M1 Max are probably more so aimed at non "big budget" productions going "upscale" than trying to jump into the big budget productions.

Focus on H.264, H.265 , and 'regular' ProRes 422 aren't the core of high budget productions.

 

[macguru9999]

I would just like to be able to buy a used 2019 mac pro for a reasonable price ... say ~5K AU for a base model that could be selectively upgraded. (the retail price in $AU starts at double this) As a general workhorse machine with windows and mac software this would be great for several years to come. Not everyone needs to render video on a daily basis.

 

[avro707]

I would just like to be able to buy a used 2019 mac pro for a reasonable price ... say ~5K AU for a base model that could be selectively upgraded. (the retail price in $AU starts at double this) As a general workhorse machine with windows and mac software this would be great for several years to come. Not everyone needs to render video on a daily basis.

I'm with you on that, if a 2019 Mac Pro was at a reasonable price I'd grab it immediately. Laptop computers I don't really like using unless I have to.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Mark Gurman tweeted that the Mac Pro will have "up to 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450233957350576129

 

[MisterAndrew]

If it has 4x the performance of the M1 Max then a Geekbench score might be something like 7,000 single core and 41,000 multi core.

 

[Kung gu]

If it has 4x the performance of the M1 Max then a Geekbench score might be something like 7,000 single core and 41,000 multi core.

Its 4x for GPU. CPU is 70% faster.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Its 4x for GPU. CPU is 70% faster.

Hmm, okay. So that could be a Geekbench score of 2,973 for single core and 19,621 for multi core. That's not an improvement over the current Intel 28 core for multi core (19,705). I think it will be higher.

 

[deconstruct60]

If it has 4x the performance of the M1 Max then a Geekbench score might be something like 7,000 single core and 41,000 multi core.

The single thread score would not change if just piled on 4x as much stuff . A single core is stilll going to be a single core. It would be a good thing just to keep single thread the same with that much more stuff sucking power also ( more interconnect and cache even if power down some P cores ) .
M1 pro and max single thread are very close to M1 .

Doubtful Apple would allow a single core to “grab” 4x more bandwidth since causes problems as the other cores jump back into the mix. Balanced bisecting bandwidth will be required if going to pile that much stuff together.

Looking at the die shots the die for the 2x and 4x are most likely different from the Max. it may turn out that Apple waits for the “M2“ foundation for the scale up versions. If improved cores rhen might get a modest bump ( 8-15% not 400% ) with a process shrink.

If Done with tiles also likely to run short of 41k on multithreaded because will now have memory hops to take from subsets of cores to farther away memory.

 

[sn1p3r845]

This gets me all excited for the new Mac Pro, there's absolutely no way I'm buying an Intel one now. By then there should be zero compatibility issues.

 

[mattspace]

Was there any mention / coverage over whether these machines support external graphics?

 

[macguru9999]

This gets me all excited for the new Mac Pro, there's absolutely no way I'm buying an Intel one now. By then there should be zero compatibility issues.

I doubt anyone is buying them, anywhere

 

[mikas]

Was there any mention / coverage over whether these machines support external graphics?

Did not catch anything about eGPU.

But honestly I did not expect anything in that front either. There's no reason for them to hand out any revenue to third parties at this stage of world conquour. One needs to begratefull for eGPUs they are running now, me thinks this is the end of it for Mac with eGPUs. It will be all about integrated graphics and unified memory from now on with Macs. Only Apple SoCs for the future.

But I have to say I am interested now more about ASI SoC than what with M1 I was. If they just put the Max in the Mini with a reasonable price tag I just might have a try with that.

 

[deconstruct60]

Was there any mention / coverage over whether these machines support external graphics?

At its core, that is not a "hardware" problem. That is an macOS problem. If Apple enables eGPUs then they'll be enabled on multiple M-series systems.

WWDC would be a more likely "reveal" context for starting to provision and sign 3rd party GPU drivers. The changes that would enables would have to trickle out into lots of applications also.

For now though, Metal is starting to turn into "Apple GPU API".

 

[joelypolly]

Yep, ordered a 14" and will wait until the Mini gets updated to replace my Mac Pro. The only real use I have for a stationary Mac is mostly on the storage side and to act as a content cache for the house.

This is the current Geekbench vs my Mac Pro and I don't think it makes sense to keep it in the long term.

Mac Pro (Late 2019) vs MacBookPro18,2 - Geekbench

 

[deconstruct60]

Did not catch anything about eGPU.

But honestly I did not expect anything in that front either. There's no reason for them to hand out any revenue to third parties at this stage of world conquour. One needs to begratefull for eGPUs they are running now, me thinks this is the end of it for Mac with eGPUs. It will be all about integrated graphics and unified memory from now on with Macs. Only Apple SoCs for the future.

It isn't mainly about revenues. It is about a system solution space. Apple may cover a single 3080-3090 or 6800/6800XT/6900 at some point, but they probably are not going to be able to cover 3-5 of them in terms of computational throughput with an iGPU.

Additionally, soldered to the board iGPU also doesn't change in time. Even if Apple covered a 3090 in 10 months would they cover 2-3 5090's 4-5 years out ? Probably not.


dGPUs are more than probably dead in the majority of the Mac line up . To be competitive leveraging relatively slower RAM the Apple GPUs are more sensitive to unoptimized code. Apple is probably more interested in building a bigger moat of optimized graphics stack around the Mac apps. Yes that leads to money but it also leads to a more steady stream of money due to a tighter ecosystem with the rest of the Apple product lineup.

Eventually that will cause problems.

But I have to say I am interested now more about ASI SoC than what with M1 I was. If they just put the Max in the Mini with a reasonable price tag I just might have a try with that.

Good luck with that depending upon "reasonable". The Max drives up the minimal RAM to 16GB and about a $900 jump for the MBP 14". ( + $500 for the 10-24G + $400 for the required RAM bump). The full Max is going to be at least a $1,100 buy-in.

So a decent M1 Max Mini is likely in the > $2K zone with decent amount of internal storage.

Could be a substantive problem though if Apple thins out the Mini enclosure too much though.

 

[deconstruct60]

Mark Gurman tweeted that the Mac Pro will have "up to 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450233957350576129

Kind of wonder though if Jade2C and Jade4C got cancelled in favor of just skipping the mostly M1 foundation and going on to M2 ( probably TSMC N4 based) one.

Minimally it is likely a different die layout than what the M1 Max uses. That "Max" is the other issue. How do they go "up" from the name 'Max'. What is bigger than the Maximum?

Could be M1 Max2 and M1 Max4 . Or perhaps get on a better name track with the M2 prefix.

 

[mikas]

Yes it is a problem that you can't update a Mac anyways anymore in the future. You have to wait Apple gets out the newest iterations and buy it maxed out again. I have yet to swallow all of that, but we'll see. An eGPU, evenif only the AMD stuff, would make all this a little bit easier to live with.

Unified memory with ASI Max is quoted at 400GBps. Isn't that the memory and speed what the GPU uses too?
That's not so bad comparing to, let's say 6800XT (512 GBps).

I would love it if Apple gave us back eGPU at some point again.

I probably would pay 3000€ for a maxed out Max Mini with 2TB of storage, if they brought it out soon.
(it's getting funny with the terminology though, later on we could call some of these a Mac Pro Max)

 

[mikas]

^ M1 Ultimate?

 

[kvic]

Seeing M1 Pro and M1 Max, personally I find it clearer where Apple is heading. It's very unlikely there will be eGPU and dGPU support on new Mac's with Apple silicons.

So called "Unified Memory Architecture" that Macrumor'ers have been bragging about is not new. It really takes someone like Apple to shatter the PC industry, then collectively they'll move forward. We could expect PC side to catch up pretty quickly at least in laptops. Let's remind ppl Sony/AMD were the recent pioneer in "unified memory architecture" with the debut of Playstation 4.

For a desktop workstation which excel in modularity, expandability and flexibilities, there is no strong indications that PC should follow Apple's examples. After all, PC workstations will continue to run the world and cater to a wide and variety of workloads while Mac Pro with Apple silicons remain in niche market segments.

With that said, I feel strongly the 2019 Mac Pro platform will continue to be available for as long as there are demands from its professional users. Sounds like x86-64 support will be available for a long while. Hope I don't have to byte my words.

 

[Waragainstsleep]

The days of folks strapping a Mac Pro into a ruggedized cart on wheels to do work in the field is going to be lots tougher to sell as a solution. And long delay feedback loops between shooting and "dailies" will shrink.

A very long time ago I recall there were news teams running around with Xserves in the boot/trunk of a hatchback so they could edit their news reports out on the road.

Whatever the next Mac Pro ends up with, its seems likely that its thermal constraints will mean the rack version could easily look like a new 1U Xserve.
I wonder if the Pro or Max chips will make their way into a high end Mac Mini at some point. Might even get 3 of them per U of rack space.

 

[Gr1f]

Mark Gurman tweeted that the Mac Pro will have "up to 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450233957350576129

Yes, that sounds amazing but at what cost?

I'm holding out to replace my MP 16core that I purchased at a base level and have been slowly upgrading. A machine that cost twice what a Maxxed out MP 2013 cost.

With the M1 I wonder what will be the sweet spot? So far looks like Ram won't be upgradable? It will probably allow 3rd party Graphics and Drives. Or might the 2022 MP allow for both types of Ram? Could we speculate that 2022 MP has enough GPU/CPU power for any of us 3d rendering?

The future looks bright but I worry about the cost and the ability to upgrade it.

We still have 2013 CMPs in production. On their last legs granted, frankly due to MacOS/Software.