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ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
Kind of wonder though if Jade2C and Jade4C got cancelled in favor of just skipping the mostly M1 foundation and going on to M2 ( probably TSMC N4 based) one.

Minimally it is likely a different die layout than what the M1 Max uses. That "Max" is the other issue. How do they go "up" from the name 'Max'. What is bigger than the Maximum?

Could be M1 Max2 and M1 Max4 . Or perhaps get on a better name track with the M2 prefix. :)
What's in a name, anyway? I don't recall anyone predicting "Pro" and "Max." The most important thing this naming convention does IMO is make it clear that these SoCs are built with the same-generation tech as the original M1. Not, "We'll build M1, see how it goes, and then improve it for the 'better' Macs" but rather, "This has been the roadmap since Day One. We have faith in our architecture and execution."

Apple has plenty of naming choices when it comes to the Silicon for the Mac Pro (or whatever they name it - I think something that separates this particular model from MBP and a hypothetical big-screen iMac equipped with a Max). Since "Max" is already spoken for (what's bigger than max?), and it's almost inevitable it has to be "more"....

Well, I recall back when I was racing whitewater slalom (before the turn of the century), there was a series of C-1 boats
with names like Max, Bat Max, Cuda Max, and Ultra Max (iirc) - I owned one of those, but can't recall which. So I guess Ultra Max, Super-Double-Secret Max or some such could still be in the cards for Apple.

However, there's also the possibility they could establish an entirely separate processor line, akin to Xeon, especially optimized for higher-end computing. Why just have more of the same CPU and GPU cores as the mass market Macs when you could have cores with entirely different optimization? If they're intended solely for desktops they don't have to consider efficiency cores at all - more space for performance cores (although there's also not a particular reason to skip performance cores as an energy efficiency move, as long as TSMC can build a big enough die at a sustainable yield). There is the question of how large an SoC with 1.5 GB (or more) of RAM would be, especially when you add in all the additional CPU and GPU cores...

I don't think M2 would make sense under this scenario. M2 implies the next-generation M-series. No, they'd use another letter entirely.

Despite this little flight of fancy, it makes far more sense to assume Apple intends to stick to a single, highly scalable architecture. I can see the 2022 Mac Pros being the first to sport the next-gen M2 architecture, with scaled-down versions making their way into the mass-market Macs afterwards.

It now seems pretty likely that the upcoming big-screen iMacs will be offered with similar configurations as the new Mac Pros; something closer to the iMac Pro than a bigger-screen version of the 24" iMac. Doesn't seem wonderful for my budget - while I want something bigger than the 24", these days I don't need more performance than a garden-variety M1.
 

macguru9999

macrumors 6502a
Aug 9, 2006
817
387
It now seems pretty likely that the upcoming big-screen iMacs will be offered with similar configurations as the new Mac Pros; something closer to the iMac Pro than a bigger-screen version of the 24" iMac. Doesn't seem wonderful for my budget - while I want something bigger than the 24", these days I don't need more performance than a garden-variety M1.
Then get a dell 27" screen and an M1 mac mini
 
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jasonmvp

macrumors 6502
Jun 15, 2015
422
345
Northern VA
I'm pretty keen on the new MBPs but will probably punt on them for the time being given that my discount doesn't apply. Heh. ;-)

In all seriousness, I'm concerned where the next gen Mac Pro goes with the AS chip. I get that unified RAM (which isn't a new concept) is fast as hell. But what brought me back to the Mac Pro is its modularity. I'm seeing an AS-equipped Mac Pro slide back towards the dreaded trashcan Pro, and at that point I abandon ship again.

pci-e.png

My 2019's PCI-E setup is a bit busy. I don't want to lose that flexibility in the new AS world. I suppose it's possible that we get some sort of PCI-E 4 (or 5?) setup but without any support for dGPUs. That's better than no PCI-E support, but it's still not ideal. Being able to upgrade the GPUs is a huge win as their tech generally changes year to year.

I was kicking around some other ideas but kept coming up blank. For instance: say that MPX slot is something Apple worked on knowing full well they had a plan for AS. And by the time ASMacPro(tm) comes out, those slots would be PCI-E 5, not 4 or 3. I got to thinking: maybe Apple is designing their own dGPU that uses both connectors to feed data to the GPU vs today's where only one of them is, while the other is for power and Thunderbolt? That would be a full Tbit/sec of bandw...oh... no.. that's only 128GB/sec. Fail. Way too slow.

Hm.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
My 2019's PCI-E setup is a bit busy. I don't want to lose that flexibility in the new AS world. I suppose it's possible that we get some sort of PCI-E 4 (or 5?) setup but without any support for dGPUs. That's better than no PCI-E support, but it's still not ideal. Being able to upgrade the GPUs is a huge win as their tech generally changes year to year.

GPU tech change every year? Something in at least one category across the whole AMD line up; perhaps. Yearly drops in a specific product category. that really isn't supported.

Some of that "action every year" is also having all the players contributing to the action. Apple relationship with Nvidia is busted. So in Mac Pro space really have been limited to just one GPU vendor. Apple and Intel's relationship isn't quite as bad, but Apple probably isn't looking to let them in the mix either. (and Intel is likely looking to get some mature , stable footing on Windows and Linux first with oneAPI instead of jumping through Apple's Metal hoops. ) .



I was kicking around some other ideas but kept coming up blank. For instance: say that MPX slot is something Apple worked on knowing full well they had a plan for AS. And by the time ASMacPro(tm) comes out, those slots would be PCI-E 5, not 4 or 3. I got to thinking: maybe Apple is designing their own dGPU that uses both connectors to feed data to the GPU vs today's where only one of them is, while the other is for power and Thunderbolt? That would be a full Tbit/sec of bandw...oh... no.. that's only 128GB/sec. Fail. Way too slow.

the MPX slot in and of itself probably doesn't point to some deep long term plan. Apple did Afterburner too. And now they are weaving substantive parts of that into the SoC fixed function logic. M1 Pro and Max can encode as well as decode ProRes. Afterburner is still one way (decode).

I doubt the MPX connector took more than a couple of months to come up with. That wasn't some $100M R&D that Apple has a huge "sunk cost" commitment they are going to be reluctant to let go.

The MPX connector solves three problems :

1. Power to card with no wires . Apple hates messy wires.
2. provision DisplayPort to the default on board TB controllers
3. provision PCI-e to the TB controllers on some cards.


If there is only iGPU then problem one implicitly disappears. For problem two the TB controllers are also in the SoC. Provisioning them some DP feeds is also almost completely done. Alternative DP feeds are actually a bit of problem because would have to pump them back into the SoC and pin input/output on the SoC is limited. ( the huge iGPU needs gobs of memory I/O to keep itself feed. ) It would actually substantively simplify the logic board design if didn't have to have a N-way switch to route DP feeds hither and yond. [ Putting TB next to the display controller also lowers power consumption and Apple is all about fanatical Performance/watt now. ]

So really left with getting "extra " PCIe feeds for TB to display card. PCI-e v4 , v5 progression is likely to cover that in the future. If AMD/Nvidia add DisplayPort v2 and then "iterate" to add USB4/TB3 (since the need a TB protocol engine anyway for DPv2 ) then can provision out of a x16 PCi-e v4/v5 bundle without much "overhead". (that's if Apple lets them back into the "pool" of singed GPU drivers. )
 

rondocap

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 18, 2011
542
341
Do you guys think an Intel refresh for the Mac Pro is still likely like we thought before? It seems like the Apple Silicon is a lot more advanced than we thought in some cases, I can definitely see the connection for a powerful Apple Silicon Mac Pro In a year or so

maybe the new MPX modules we got this year is it for that Intel system, what do you guys think?
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
Do you guys think an Intel refresh for the Mac Pro is still likely like we thought before? It seems like the Apple Silicon is a lot more advanced than we thought in some cases, I can definitely see the connection for a powerful Apple Silicon Mac Pro In a year or so

maybe the new MPX modules we got this year is it for that Intel system, what do you guys think?

Yes. Gurman, who is the one who leaked Apple Silicon in the first place, has said one is coming. Multiple other sources in the supply pipeline have pointed to Ice Lake.

I think it's likely that the Apple Silicon Mac Pro will not use MPX. So part of continuing the Intel Mac Pro is trying to get their money out of the MPX design, and to avoid upsetting pros who invested in it. Beyond the integrated GPU design of Apple Silicon, the described case would not fit MPX modules.
 
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mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
Despite the rumors from long been reliable sources, I highly doubt it Apple will/have designed a new board around a new intel socket. I can see no reason for Apple to do that besides this "not to piss of some pros", and that would not be enough to justify it. Apple has pissed off people continually.

So I think they are ready to piss of people, because they've got something better instead to offer for us. At least they think so themselves. And maybe they do have it.

It's not ready yet, it's not here for quite some time. But another intel design while waiting? Nope, that would be wasting their resources and betting on a dead horse they killed themselves already.

And about the Pro coming next; Cube.
Or a cylinder aka trashcan. Apple are stubborn, and this time they are to succeed with it. Now is the time they have the best chance to not blow it badly.

My reasoning for this prediction; because the design to either succeed or blow it is already settled by themselves. It's their SoC (or SoCs), and they are betting all in with it. They are to knock your SoCs off.

Design wise they will need a new display too, something to complement the New Mac Pro Cube (nMPC) design with. XDR and Mac Pro CNC'd 3D holes design can go now.

I also really don't know if I wan't to be right or wrong with any of my predictions.

I am so excited. And I am terrified.
I can't wait. But I fear the future.
 

mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
Let me attach my earlier, a little rough, mock up. That Jade 2/4 thing would probably need some more room to breath than a Mac Mini, so let's stretch it a little and give some ventilation like the 6,1 tcMP does.
Mac Pro Mini 2021.png

ps. I do own a Cube and some 6,1 trashcans, and quite a few Mac Minis too, so I am not solely a Mac Pro user only.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
Despite the rumors from long been reliable sources, I highly doubt it Apple will/have designed a new board around a new intel socket.

I continue to be baffled that when an Intel and Apple Silicon Mac Pro are both leaked together, people keep selectively taking one portion of the leak as true and the other is false.

The Intel and Apple Silicon Mac Pros were part of the same leak, in the same article, from the same source. It's a package deal. Either they're both a reliable leak, or neither are. The entire leak was that Apple was going to do two Mac Pros: A small Apple Silicon one and a full size Intel one.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
So I think they are ready to piss of people, because they've got something better instead to offer for us. At least they think so themselves. And maybe they do have it.
Unless they're going to swap the whole machine for a price differential equivalent to the retail price of a GPU, or the retail price of a RAM upgrade, they haven't got something "better" than a current Mac Pro.
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
Even the single core should be higher since i am sure it will not be on M1 scaled but with the a15 new single core count
So it will be 4x M2 single core and also based on M2 gpu core that the A15 has and its even better than first 5nm A14
So im pretty sure we will have M2 max to scale by then into mac pro, right?
 

vel0city

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2017
347
510
The next Mac Pro will be the true successor to our beloved 5, 1. It will be what we've wanted all this time.

Look at what Apple did with the new Macbook Pro. Pretty much everything anyone could want. That thing is like an Apple fever dream come true. A love letter to their pro userbase. That was Apple saying "we hear you and we get you"

The next Mac Pro will deliver the same ultra-high level of performance and features as the new Macbook Pro but on the desktop.

They are going to chain those Max chips together for absolutely insane, previously unheard of performance on both the GPU and CPU.

I am totally confident that Apple are going to deliver beyond expectations with whatever form factor the new Mac Pro takes.

In the meantime I've gone all-in on a 64GB Max MacBook Pro until the desktops arrive.

The Mac is most definitely back.
 

randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
Didn't Tim Apple say during the OG Apple Silicon launch that they "have one more Intel Mac we're really excited about still to launch" or words to that effect?

Even though the smart money is probably on Apple Silicon by this point, a refreshed Intel MP along with (at some point) the next RDNA3 gpus will likely offer really strong performance. Also judging by the price of a M1 Pro Max MPB, it's unlikely the Apple Silicon Mac Pro will be affordable like some people hoped.

If this is true, they can probably can co-exist for a while longer.
 
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mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
^
Yep, he did, WWDC keynote 22.6.2020, 1:46:15 to 1:46:20. You can taste the excitement through all of those seconds.
1634732737330.png
1634732792812.png

iMac 2020 was introduced in August 2020. Mac Mini had kind of a bump in october 2020, but no new processors, so that doesn't count. So if the plural in his sentence is to be taken as iMacs, or different Mac product categories, I don't know. If the former, then they could be done of ever introducing intel Macs again. If the latter, there could still be at least one intel Mac to be introduced. Maybe it would be that last intel Mac Pro, there are none other left in Mac categories anymore.

About my own accountability predicting anything at all about Apples future moves: from zero to none.
Rumors become leaks if they later appear to have been correct. And vice versa, leaks would turn into rumors just as easily. I think this can be true partly also, half of the rumor becomes a leak, and the other half was just an inaccurate rumor.

Would I buy a 6000€-15000€ Mac Pro now, and count on that the production software I use daily is going to be there with me, for years to come, on my Mac, with intel binaries for that Mac? No, I would not. Software companies would have to maintain 3 versions of their software. This is not some simple software compiled easily in X Code for both architectures. I believe the transition will be quick then the momentum turns towards ASi. And unfortunately I think I'll loose some software in between. Not all softaware is necessarily going to be ported to Mac too anymore.

I wonder if there is a RISC-V version of Mac OS running in their labs, just to be ready if nVidia somehow can have their ARM holdings acquisition.

edit. added an YT URL to keynote
 
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Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
one was the current 27 " imac, and the second will be the intel mac pro that is getting upgrades...so there you go, plural
 

mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
Yes, let's hope so, there are many who want that last Mac Pro.
But then on the other hand, you could call these 6 pcs of iMacs, all with new/upgraded intel processors, as Macs (plural) too.
1634735135974.png
 

Weisswurstsepp

macrumors member
Jul 25, 2020
55
63
So called "Unified Memory Architecture" that Macrumor'ers have been bragging about is not new. It really takes someone like Apple to shatter the PC industry, then collectively they'll move forward. We could expect PC side to catch up pretty quickly at least in laptops. Let's remind ppl Sony/AMD were the recent pioneer in "unified memory architecture" with the debut of Playstation 4.

No, they weren't. In fact, UMA was pioneered by SiliconGraphics back in the early 1990's.

The first machine with UMA architecture was the SGI O2, a single processor desktop workstation based on a MIPS 64bit processor running SGI's flavor of UNIX called IRIX. Thanks to UMA, the O2 was able to overlay 3D objects with live video, which made it a common tool in broadcasting studios and in the movie industry.

In 1998 SGI also released two Windows PC workstations using UMA, the SGI VisualWorkstation 320 (single or dual Pentium2/3) and VisualWorkstation 540 (one to four intel XEON processors). They ran a special version of WindowsNT 4 and later stock Windows 2000.

So UMA as technology is actually pretty old.

When SGI went bankrupt many of the engineers that worked on the UMA machines went to Nvidia and ATI (now AMD), which is why UMA later turned up in consoles.
 
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skippermonkey

macrumors 6502a
Jun 23, 2003
649
1,644
Bath, UK
Dont know how to feel about all this. I waited ten years to upgrade my old Mac Pro, and I've invested heavily in my new system with 24-core CPU, RAM, SSDs and the W6800 Duo (was hoping to add a second). I'm excited by what seems to be an amazing Mac Pro update in the works, but how much has the 2019 machine cost me/will cost me when its time to sell? The only thing I can ask for is that my MPX modules still fit and work in any new machine – but hey, this is Apple, right?
 

mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
Unless they're going to swap the whole machine for a price differential equivalent to the retail price of a GPU, or the retail price of a RAM upgrade, they haven't got something "better" than a current Mac Pro.
I guess you did not mean this specifically, but that's what came in to my mind. There is this rental approach that every other consumer "goods" thing has an obvious intention to go with. A rental PC, and a rental Mac.

Apple has advertized the Liam or what Neeson it ever was, robot. A robot for solely destructing used Macs and other Apple equipment. They are all to be ripped to atoms, and recycled in an automated way, and built to, and like new, more performant Macs. I think that moment was a starter for rental business, I guess. We, as consumers, are just not yet ready for it. We do it in every other field of our consuming habits, but not with computers. Not just yet.

I have hated that idea as long as I have known it. I still hate it. And I resist it strongly too today. But I might be on the loosing side, again. Appstores and digital stores do it allready,. Every platform, not just Apples.

100 bucks/euros/pounds/any known universal currency/ per a month for a working Mac/PC. Or 200 $ for a better one, you would be on the top of it if you pay enough for it. Just like iCloud. Just like Apple Music. Just like APple TV.

It's a wet dream to them, the corporations. Steady income, and increasing it incrementally or progressively, and maybe, just maybe, exponentially.
 
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kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
So UMA as technology is actually pretty old.

When SGI went bankrupt many of the engineers that worked on the UMA machines went to Nvidia and ATI (now AMD), which is why UMA later turned up in consoles.

I was expecting somebody might pick up on this. This time around I added the qualifier "recent" (pioneer) in my original post for the insurance..

What a walk down the memory lane. Like lots of ideas/concepts in computing, they indeed date back many years and perhaps decades. In personal computers, "unified memory architecture" was born out of necessity I believe. For example, Apple II and Macintosh were earlier examples of "unified memory architecture. I think both weren't unique either on this regard from machines in that era. The first IBM PC was the "breakthrough" to introduce the "discrete GPU" to personal computers.

Around 1999, Intel introduced first chipset that included iGPU which is also "unified memory architecture." And ever since "unified memory architecture" dominated PC and remain true today. It has always been around people but people don't talk about it because performance is nothing to brag about since PC markets usually compromise. For example, very few laptops deployed LPDDR RAM the name of cost saving, and weak market demand.

Smartphone GPUs are "unified memory architecture" out of necessity just like early personal computers. I think Apple's root in mobile processors is one of the reasons they picked its current path in M processors. I would think the other reason was the tremendous success of Playstation 4 which proved desktops could perform very well with "unified memory architecture."

Dont know how to feel about all this. I waited ten years to upgrade my old Mac Pro, and I've invested heavily in my new system with 24-core CPU, RAM, SSDs and the W6800 Duo (was hoping to add a second). I'm excited by what seems to be an amazing Mac Pro update in the works, but how much has the 2019 machine cost me/will cost me when its time to sell? The only thing I can ask for is that my MPX modules still fit and work in any new machine – but hey, this is Apple, right?

I bet 2019 Mac Pro platform will continue for a longer while than ppl initially anticipated, the same for x86-64 support in MacOS. I believe Apple is open minded at the moment. Of course, it's also a feedback loop. The more users switch the faster x86-64 support will wane.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
The next Mac Pro will be the true successor to our beloved 5, 1. It will be what we've wanted all this time.

A large part of what Apple's talking about with Apple Silicon is unified memory and on die GPUs. And if the rumors are true, and the Mac Pro is just using a 2x or 4x size MacBook Pro chip, that means no swappable graphics. People keep saying Apple would never do a Mac Pro without swappable graphics but... we're coming to the end of the road here and there is no path for swappable graphics visible. The Apple Silicon architecture doesn't support it, and the chips don't support it.

I don't think the Apple Silicon Mac Mini will be a return to the 5,1. It's going to be a return to the 6,1. There is just no way past it looking at the Apple Silicon architecture at this point. And not only does the hardware not point to swappable graphics, the software doesn't either. No AMD drivers on ARM still, and Apple's had a while now to do it. And no eGPU support.

Also, if the MacBook Pro is any guide, it's not going to be cheap.
 
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sn1p3r845

macrumors regular
Feb 9, 2012
216
108
Vancouver, BC
Also, if the MacBook Pro is any guide, it's not going to be cheap.

I honestly don't mind paying for insane performance, but I think having expansion ports/slots available for specialized niches is a necessity. I loved having a raid controller card in my 5,1.
 
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