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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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May be the reason Apple is working so hard to get a "Full Metal" variant of Blender, a showcase for how the software can perform when properly optimized for ASi/Metal...?

Apple has deprecated OpenGL (and OpenCL). Blender's plan at one point was to move to Vulkan/OpenCL has a common portable base across platforms. ( OpenCL had been a long term problem though with various not so good implementations) . So Apple's deprecation move somewhat blew up Blender's plan to control software development costs. So Apple's support for a Metal port is in part because Apple played a substantive part in screwing up that plan.


If there is now a more expensive path ... someone has to pay for it.


Rumor is that there are some on the Blender forums who feel Apple may bring real-time ray-tracing to the Blender viewport, so that seems pretty positive...?

Again. Positive or necessary because the portable code isn't gong to work?

Come on Apple...! Just give us a preview of the ASi Mac Pro already...! ;^p

If it isn't ready for "prime time" then they should wait. The Studio display got pushed out the door with a flakey camera. The iPhone Pro has a 'fix' coming for quirky issue(s). Not that the Mac Pro will have a camera, but it pretty likely a complicated system. And very expensive. And likely going to get criticized anyway. Major quirks would just be gas on the fire.
 

exoticSpice

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For the people that want a PC like workstation, the 8,1 won't be like that.

Apple is going build a ARM server Mac similar to Nvidia's ARM server but with PCIe.

If your goal is get multiple GPUs with multiple Monitors forget about the 8,1.

The 7,1 is stuck with an Intel CPU that is not great and who knows if Apple will support the 7000 series in macOS.

Recently, Nvidia announced the RTX 4090 with 90TFLOPS. The 8,1 GPU won't even reach 60TFLOPS.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
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For the people that want a PC like workstation, the 8,1 won't be like that.

Apple is going build a ARM server Mac similar to Nvidia's ARM server but with PCIe.

If your goal is get multiple GPUs with multiple Monitors forget about the 8,1.

The 7,1 is stuck with an Intel CPU that is not great and who knows if Apple will support the 7000 series in macOS.

Recently, Nvidia announced the RTX 4090 with 90TFLOPS. The 8,1 GPU won't even reach 60TFLOPS.

If the 4090 will run in our 7,1 under Windows then I'll move over to windows. And that will be the end of my buying high end Apple computers.
 
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exoticSpice

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If the 4090 will run in our 7,1 under Windows then I'll move over to windows. And that will be the end of my buying high end Apple computers.
Why? Just build a new PC and sell the Mac Pro(If you don't need macOS). The GPU paired with that crap Xeon is imo maddening. The system will bottleneck. The 4090 is so MUCH faster than the 3090.

Anyway, you do you. I hope people learnt an important lesson never trust Apple in the Pro desktop space. They change their mind so quickly.
 
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exoticSpice

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its still a closed system in the apple M chip ecosphere that apple hardware is best and all you will be able to use, like it or not. Yet there own API metal is thrashed by other GPU's even though apple promote the new metal as groundbreaking for games they also wish to control on apple devise's.

VM machines are not as reliable as true booting into an OS simple as that, having run parallel windows i know the difference when talking direct to plate setter rips for fine art printing at 220 dpi with high res files. VM is ok but you cant beat the real thing.
It's not closed, the M1 iPad Pro is closed. You can boot native Linux and run it on the 8,1. GPU drivers are nearing completion for the M1.

Thing is in a few years Linux on Apple Silicon will be huge because of huge addressable memory. A lot of intelligent people are working on the Linux drivers for M chips.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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For the people that want a PC like workstation, the 8,1 won't be like that.

Apple is going build a ARM server Mac similar to Nvidia's ARM server but with PCIe.

Nvidia's Grace CPU for servers? Likely only somewhat limited overlaps with that SoC.


image4-3.png




First, you likely have that completely backwards in terms of PCI-e. Grace has four x16 PCI-e v5 link bundles. Apple hasn't touched v5 and hasn't cracked the double digit number of lanes ( 4 Max , 8 Ultra ). I don't expect Apple to do better than two x16 v4 link bundles. The die edge space usage priority is likely on "more UltraFusion" links (to their own Apple stuff) than on "PCI-e links" to other vendors stuff. All of that MC bandwidth on Grace is delivered to the CPU cores. Apple's solution is likely only going to a bounded subset to the CPU cores. (in part because the CPU core count likely won't be anywhere close to Grace's).



There is some similarity in that Grace has 16 memory controllers with LPDDR stacks sitting off of each of them. Nvidia is provisioning ECC support (probably extra data the MC is sending to the LPDDR5 package. 1 channel the data. 1 channel the checksum. ) . I wouldn't hold my breadth that Apple is going to cover that. Apple is wider in that they will have four channels per MC and probably lower capacity (this round).


Apple has UltraFusion and Nvidia has NVLINK C2C there is some functional overlaps there. UltraFusion is way wider and high bandwidth , but also likely way shorter (i.e., only useful for intra package communication via 2.5/3D chip interposers) .

Same article.
" ....
..with lower latency. NVLink-C2C also requires just 1.3 picojoules/bit transferred, which is more than 5x the energy efficiency of PCIe Gen 5. ..
....
... and, finally, the bandwidth between the Hopper GPU and the Grace CPU is critical to maximizing the performance of the Grace Hopper Superchip. GPU-to-CPU memory reads and writes are expected to be 429 GB/s and 407 GB/s, respectively, representing more than 95% and more than 90% of the peak theoretical unidirectional transfer rates of NVLink-C2C. ..."

Nvidia is slower than Utlrafusion bandwidth, but it scales over multiple cards and nodes (via NVswitch ) . It the oppostite trade-off from the PCI-e case where Apple likely swaps more die edge space for more/wider UltraFusion. Nvidia has a narrower C2C , but can roll out enough PCI-e v5 bandwidth to deal with 100+ GbE network cards.


Apple's SoC is going to be a personal (single user) oriented SoC. Not a server SoC.




If your goal is get multiple GPUs with multiple Monitors forget about the 8,1.

Some limited similarity there in that a Grace-Hopper superchip is probably not going to directly drive multiple monitors. ( remote virtualized screens. perhaps. But directly coupled point to point wires? no. )


The 7,1 is stuck with an Intel CPU that is not great and who knows if Apple will support the 7000 series in macOS.

MP 2010 - 2012
MP 2013
MP 2019

All were 'dead end' CPU sockets when the systems launched. That's isn't really a 'new' thing for Apple. [ 2012 they actually skipped a new socket that could have spanned a tick-tock cycle, but rolled out 'warmed over leftovers' in the old socket. ]





Recently, Nvidia announced the RTX 4090 with 90TFLOPS. The 8,1 GPU won't even reach 60TFLOPS.

If the Apple GPU cores were the only ones on the die, that would be more significant.
 
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exoticSpice

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Nvidia's Grace CPU for servers? Likely only somewhat limited overlaps with that SoC.


image4-3.png




First, you likely have that completely backwards in terms of PCI-e. Grace has four x16 PCI-e v5 link bundles. Apple hasn't touched v5 and hasn't cracked the double digit number of lanes ( 4 Max , 8 Ultra ). I don't expect Apple to do better than two x16 v4 link bundles. The die edge space usage priority is likely on "more UltraFusion" links (to their own Apple stuff) than on "PCI-e links" to other vendors stuff. All of that MC bandwidth on Grace is delivered to the CPU cores. Apple's solution is likely only going to a bounded subset to the CPU cores. (in part because the CPU core count likely won't be anywhere close to Grace's).



There is some similarity in that Grace has 16 memory controllers with LPDDR stacks sitting off of each of them. Nvidia is provisioning ECC support (probably extra data the MC is sending to the LPDDR5 package. 1 channel the data. 1 channel the checksum. ) . I wouldn't hold my breadth that Apple is going to cover that. Apple is wider in that they will have four channels per MC and probably lower capacity (this round).


Apple has UltraFusion and Nvidia has NVLINK C2C there is some functional overlaps there. UltraFusion is way wider and high bandwidth , but also likely way shorter (i.e., only useful for intra package communication via 2.5/3D chip interposers) .

Same article.
" ....
..with lower latency. NVLink-C2C also requires just 1.3 picojoules/bit transferred, which is more than 5x the energy efficiency of PCIe Gen 5. ..
....
... and, finally, the bandwidth between the Hopper GPU and the Grace CPU is critical to maximizing the performance of the Grace Hopper Superchip. GPU-to-CPU memory reads and writes are expected to be 429 GB/s and 407 GB/s, respectively, representing more than 95% and more than 90% of the peak theoretical unidirectional transfer rates of NVLink-C2C. ..."

Nvidia is slower than Utlrafusion bandwidth, but it scales over multiple cards and nodes (via NVswitch ) . It the oppostite trade-off from the PCI-e case where Apple likely swaps more die edge space for more/wider UltraFusion. Nvidia has a narrower C2C , but can roll out enough PCI-e v5 bandwidth to deal with 100+ GbE network cards.


Apple's SoC is going to be a personal (single user) oriented SoC. Not a server SoC.






Some limited similarity there in that a Grace-Hopper superchip is probably not going to directly drive multiple monitors. ( remote virtualized screens. perhaps. But directly coupled point to point wires? no. )




MP 2010 - 2012
MP 2013
MP 2019

All were 'dead end' CPU sockets when the systems launched. That's isn't really a 'new' thing for Apple. [ 2012 they actually skipped a new socket that could have spanned a tick-tock cycle, but rolled out 'warmed over leftovers' in the old socket. ]







If the Apple GPU cores were the only ones on the die, that would be more significant.
What I meant Apple will do something simliar to Nvidia's Grace ARM CPU but as you said in a workstation form-factor. The scope will be smaller, it will be a great machine but don't expect any modular components. Only the SSD will be modular.

Apple's Pro desktop path is very unstable. The Mac Pro is not Apple's priority. It's in fact at bottom of the list in terms of Mac products.
 

spaz8

macrumors 6502
Mar 3, 2007
492
91
I'm waiting on a non-alpha AS version of Houdini.. which helping me be patient for the AS Mac Pro.. and not just get a Studio Ultra.
 

Matty_TypeR

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2016
641
555
UK
The links below show all upgrade paths for previous Mac pro machines. and all listed in this very forum, compiled by user's who wished to improve the performance of there Mac pro with out purchasing a new Machine. Not everyone who use's Mac pro machines are high end user's with unlimited funds to invest in New machines. Some could well be on a tight budget looking for an improvement on there current setup.

The new Mac Pro has yet to show its spec's but if based on Apple silicon with fixed amount of memory, fixed amount of GPU cores and fixed amount of CPU cores the only upgrade path will be a new Mac pro. No matter how fast it is at purchase, you cant upgrade any built in item. possible Pcie upgrade for storage if supported, or possible TB 5 upgrade again through Pcie card if supported. No matter how you look at it, Apple now has control over what you can upgrade with any New Mac pro based on apple silicon simple as that.

CPU lists for Mac Pro's


Gpu lists for Mac Pro's


Pcie storage upgrade paths


USB upgrade paths



I hope Apple prove us wrong and the New Mac pro offer's more flexibility than the current M chip based Mac's
and apple look at the history of the Mac Pro listed above before launching a New Mac Pro with no room for improvements by the purchaser's who invest in it.
 
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exoticSpice

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The links below show all upgrade paths for previous Mac pro machines. and all listed in this very forum, compiled by user's who wished to improve the performance of there Mac pro with out purchasing a new Machine. Not everyone who use's Mac pro machines are high end user's with unlimited funds to invest in New machines. Some could well be on a tight budget looking for an improvement on there current setup.

The new Mac Pro has yet to show its spec's but if based on Apple silicon with fixed amount of memory, fixed amount of GPU cores and fixed amount of CPU cores the only upgrade path will be a new Mac pro. No matter how fast it is at purchase, you cant upgrade any built in item. possible Pcie upgrade for storage if supported, or possible TB 5 upgrade again through Pcie card if supported. No matter how you look at it, Apple now has control over what you can upgrade with any New Mac pro based on apple silicon simple as that.

CPU lists for Mac Pro's


Gpu lists for Mac Pro's


Pcie storage upgrade paths


USB upgrade paths



I hope Apple prove us wrong and the New Mac pro offer's more flexibility than the current M chip based Mac's
and apple look at the history of the Mac Pro listed above before launching a New Mac Pro with no room for improvements by the purchaser's who invest in it.
I think we will only get PCIe storage, networking/audio and USB upgrades. CPU, RAM and GPU will be soldered.

SSD will be modular like the current 7,1
 
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spaz8

macrumors 6502
Mar 3, 2007
492
91
As a MP 6,1 owner.. typing from it now.. The GPU was the biggest hinderance.. I bought it with the top end dual D700's,maxed out the RAM with 3rd party, but would of loved a GPU upgrade option by about 2-3 yrs in that never came. I upgraded the GPU's in my MP 1,1 3 times I think. I had money burning a hole in my pocket to buy a GPU upgrade for the 6,1.

Plus Apple usually doesn't even put the latest and greatest GPU available when it launches, you're usually a year behind PC land. The 1TB Nvme failed while still under warranty.

I think in any machine these days the GPU is what ages the fastest. Development has been so leaps and bounds each year there.

Sadly even when there are dedicated GPU's there is no guarantee there will be anything to buy. I think there is high chance the AS MP will be a $10K machine, that the fastest mac you can get today ( as the MP always is on launch) that feels old on some tasks 3 yrs from now.

It will be interesting how to weight that in to purchase.. do you buy the best GPU you can at purchase to try and get 12? more months out of it.. or save that money for a new machine.. and not expect to get 5? yrs out of it.

I have gotten by this long with the 6,1 because of covid, and having $10K threadrippers etc at home from my employers.
 
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gabrielefx

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Feb 15, 2020
62
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Apple worked hardly on the Mac Pro 7.1 design. The key point was the modularity but it was too much linked to the old modular architecture: one motherboard and several pci-slots.
Apple will not design another Mac Studio with everything embedded, it's not ok for pro users who renders 24/7.
Probably we gonna see a true M Mac Pro with special proprietary slots for gpus, cpus and ram upgrades.
I think the design will be always modular but different. We will not see pci cards with visible soldered components but blocks very easy to replace. This technology must last for many years and create a new standard for Apple.
Apple will amaze us with the new Mac Pro.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,173
Stargate Command
Apple worked hardly on the Mac Pro 7.1 design. The key point was the modularity but it was too much linked to the old modular architecture: one motherboard and several pci-slots.
Apple will not design another Mac Studio with everything embedded, it's not ok for pro users who renders 24/7.
Probably we gonna see a true M Mac Pro with special proprietary slots for gpus, cpus and ram upgrades.
I think the design will be always modular but different. We will not see pci cards with visible soldered components but blocks very easy to replace. This technology must last for many years and create a new standard for Apple.
Apple will amaze us with the new Mac Pro.

Most folks want that modularity (CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD), but I do not think it is gonna happen...

All we can do is wait to see what Apple presents to us, then let the dogpile ensue...?
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
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Sadly even when there are dedicated GPU's there is no guarantee there will be anything to buy. I think there is high chance the AS MP will be a $10K machine, that the fastest mac you can get today ( as the MP always is on launch) that feels old on some tasks 3 yrs from now.

Given how crazy the afterburner card was when it was released (FPGA device pushed out as a production card!)...

The Mac Pro is now a very specifically targeted machine, and it would not surprise me in the slightest to see a device with say 4-8 M2 Ultra sockets on it, each with up to 512 GB of RAM directly accessible (via DIMM slots, but traces wired so that like other multi socket platforms accessing another sockets ram goes via the other CPU - because physical limitations for memory traces).

Yes, 2-4TB of RAM in total max available depending on sockets populated.

This will be massively expensive, but for those who need it worth the purchase. Apple aren't interested in building a Mac Pro for general end user puporses.

These will be aimed at AR/VR content creation, Hollywood, etc. I very much doubt they'll be playing in 100-200 watts or so either. If they want to slaughter this segment of the market competition wise (and why not) it will be a 500-1000 watt box. A lot of power. But it will offer crazy performance in that power.
 
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avro707

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Dec 13, 2010
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As a MP 6,1 owner.. typing from it now.. The GPU was the biggest hinderance.. I bought it with the top end dual D700's,maxed out the RAM with 3rd party, but would of loved a GPU upgrade option by about 2-3 yrs in that never came. I upgraded the GPU's in my MP 1,1 3 times I think. I had money burning a hole in my pocket to buy a GPU upgrade for the 6,1.

----- -------

I have gotten by this long with the 6,1 because of covid, and having $10K threadrippers etc at home from my employers.
The 6,1 is definitely still a beautiful machine but the GPUs were a bad idea, bespoke items that are expensive to replace.

In the 5,1 people can easily replace the GPUs. A 2010 5,1 with a little bit of effort can have a current generation W6800X 32GB card installed and running or Radeon 6900 cards even. That's quite helpful.
 

Kimmo

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2011
266
318
Spice, regarding your now-deleted post, I understood what you were saying about the potential pros of building a PC. I've studied that option.

Unfortunately, for me, Windows is like that food you ate 10 years ago that made you deathly ill. You tell yourself that you'll be fine if you try it again, but the mere thought of eating it once more brings back those queasy feelings.

Hopefully, Apple will get going on the Mac Pro 8,1 launch so the we'll have a better choice than nausea or starvation.
 
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Matty_TypeR

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2016
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Spice, regarding your now-deleted post, I understood what you were saying about the potential pros of building a PC. I've studied that option.

Unfortunately, for me, Windows is like that food you ate 10 years ago that made you deathly ill. You tell yourself that you'll be fine if you try it again, but the mere thought of eating it once more brings back those queasy feelings.

Hopefully, Apple will get going on the Mac Pro 8,1 launch so the we'll have a better choice than nausea or starvation.

The thing is windows 11 is very good, and you cant compare it to windows 7 10 years ago. it's all most like Apple and microsoft have reversed roles. Apple want everything built in like Vista and its over 12G in size when windows 11 is 5.7G and the new OSX is going towards IOS these days. With a new version of OSX released every year it never gets rid of many bugs, have a look in the ventura forum.

I think Microsoft have done a good job with Win 11 and it works in everything i use it for. one of the best things about Mac pro's prior to the new AS potential mac pro is you can also run windows natively. I know you can also run VM based windows but you cant use all resources of the Machine when running VM versions with Mac OSX running in background.

We will have to wait and see what Apple announce when the Mac pro 8.1 is due for release, until then no one is really sure whats its config will be.
 

singhs.apps

macrumors 6502a
Oct 27, 2016
660
400
Apple worked hardly on the Mac Pro 7.1 design. The key point was the modularity but it was too much linked to the old modular architecture: one motherboard and several pci-slots.
Apple will not design another Mac Studio with everything embedded, it's not ok for pro users who renders 24/7.
Probably we gonna see a true M Mac Pro with special proprietary slots for gpus, cpus and ram upgrades.
I think the design will be always modular but different. We will not see pci cards with visible soldered components but blocks very easy to replace. This technology must last for many years and create a new standard for Apple.
Apple will amaze us with the new Mac Pro.
Reminds me of the red cameras’ approach speculation that surfaced around 2017/2018 for nMPs.
Yes, I think if there is a modular approach it might be proprietary, at least for some components with a PCI-e slot thrown in for those that aren’t worth the effort
 

spaz8

macrumors 6502
Mar 3, 2007
492
91
I want to think that the announcement/leak of a 27" mini-led apple monitor is a possible hint at the 8,1 coming in the spring.
 
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exoticSpice

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Apple want everything built in like Vista and its over 12G in size when windows 11 is 5.7G and the new OSX is going towards IOS these days.
Keep in mind Apple is going thru a transition. Catalina was only 5GB. Big Sur and up was 12.xGB.
The M chip transition started with Big Sur.
Why? The macOS packages are now Universal meaning they contain both X86 AND arm64 images.
When the Intel support ends expect macOS size do dropped in half.

Where the Windows 11 ISO is only an x86 image and does not contain ARM windows.

macOS might seem like its going towards iOS it certainly is in terms of look but the functionality is the same as Catalina.
 
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goMac

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Apr 15, 2004
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When the Intel support ends expect macOS size do dropped in half.
Technically it's Rosetta support that needs to end to see that full benefit. Thats going to be a while longer past Intel support being dropped.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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I want to think that the announcement/leak of a 27" mini-led apple monitor is a possible hint at the 8,1 coming in the spring.

If it is a Studio Display (SD) with a new mini-LED panel inside of it ... then probably not coupled to the Mac Pro in any major way other than coincidence. Pretty likely it is going to have "docking station" abilities like the SD. If approximately the same weight Apple could 'reuse' the stand/vesa options and the base chassis. Two active fans could/should help with the hyper-brightness power dissipation. ( there is some 'overkill' with the SD that makes it seem like Apple was going to do something different with that chassis at one point. Some folks have pointed to a 'M1 Mac 27" , but could have been looking to do a mini-LED intro with the Mac Studio and supply chain just wouldn't let it happen. So shifted to a more available , older tech panel to get unit volume. ) .

And pretty decent chance Apple is not going to position this as an 6K XDR replacement. Probably more so as a more expensive Studio Display. ( somewhat like the MBP 13" regular screen versus MBP 13" Retina product differentiation from several years ago. ) . The XDR 'compare' probably would be that it was ~ $2K less ( ballpark 1/2 the cost).

This display will very likely work just as well with a Mini , Mac Studio, MBP 14/16" as it will with a Mac Pro. Some folks have the M2 (Pro) Mini sliding into early 2023 also. Very similar opportunity to do joint announcement. If it is just a better SD then doesn't really need a Mac to co-launch with at all.

The notion that they could have done a mini-LED display much early, but are only holding it back because the Mac Pro hasn't released is likely off. Just making a 5K mini-LED display is going to be problematical. Trying to couple it to something else only gets more 'drama'.
 
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